Fedora 11 is out

[stwschool]

Looks like it's officially out.. time to download it and stick it in a virtualbox. Just a heads-up for anyone looking to try it.

[gnomeuser]

Downloading as we speak, I have used it through the development phase and it is a truly impressive release. Many good new items of interest, personally as a tester of frequent updates I really love Presto for slimming down those downloads with some hot RPM delta on delta action.

[Therion]

Downloading... I gotta say, thats a fairly impressive features list they're boasting!

[RiceMonster]

Presto sounds like a great idea. I'll try the new Fedora over the weekend.

[gnomeuser]

Presto sounds like a great idea. I'll try the new Fedora over the weekend.

Just remember it's not enabled by default since the feature was finished so late in the cycle it was felt to be the safest option, just in case. So remember to install the yum-presto package if you want this hotness.

[unknownPoster]

I'm downloading it now as well.

As much as I love Arch and Lunar, and the ideas behind each distribution, I've recently found the need to use a more "organized" distribution. Right now I'm considering Ubuntu and Fedora.

[Kingsley]

Volume complaints in 3.. 2.. 1..

[toastywombel]

I am downloading as we speak also, I am excited to see what is new!

[sertse]

Will download once things have settled. Presto/Delta rpm alone is noteworthy if it works correctly. Not to mention all the other goodies..

Fedora is always daring to innovate.

[Therion]

Ext4 by default (!) ...

BTW, is Jaunty using GNOME 2.26? I'm stuck behind my Winders machine at work...

[unknownPoster]

Ext4 by default (!) ...

BTW, is Jaunty using GNOME 2.26? I'm stuck behind my Winders machine at work...

As far as I know, Jaunty is using 2.26.

Is that "Ext4 by default!" excitement, surprise, or what? :P

[Antman]

Downloading now and sticking it on a USB Stick (I don't burn CD's anymore).

[Therion]

As far as I know, Jaunty is using 2.26.
Thanks! I couldn't remember...


Is that "Ext4 by default!" excitement, surprise, or what? :P
Some of both, I guess... Ext4 is, in my opinion, pushing the envelope just a little? I mean it's an option when you install Jaunty, but the user has to specifically change the file-system setting from the default (of Ext3) during setup. Going with Ext4 by default just seems... I dunno... a little balls-y I guess. But, that's Fedora for you!

[jsmidt]

I know these are the Ubuntu forums and for most people I would recommend using Ubuntu, especially if they wanted to only run one Linux distro that "Just Works".

However, for all those out there like me that enjoy trying out several of the best Linux distros, it's hard to beat Fedora 11. Plus, I actually think it is good for Ubuntu that many of their users have a broad range of experience with different distros.Get it here (http://fedoraproject.org/get-fedora).

If you like it, please digg (http://digg.com/linux_unix/Fedora_11_Leonidas_Begins_it_s_Reign).

[nmccrina]

I started downloading it immediately by torrent, and it is s...l...o...w. It looks like it will end up taking at least 6 hours to download. None of the mirrors seem to be any improvement. Can't wait to get started!

[Therion]

Someone beat you to the punch:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1182740

[froggyswamp]

Does anyone know if I install Fedora 11 on another partition - will it list my Ubuntu in GRUB?

[Therion]

I started downloading it immediately by torrent, and it is s...l...o...w. It looks like it will end up taking at least 6 hours to download. None of the mirrors seem to be any improvement. Can't wait to get started!
Keep looking... One the mirror I hit was D/L'ing at ~900MB/s or so. Done in 15 minutes.

Ah... Here it is (if you don't mind an http download): http://mirror.anl.gov/pub/fedora/linux/releases/11/Live/

[jsmidt]

Wow, I can't believe I missed that, it was right there under my nose.

[jsmidt]

Digg here (http://digg.com/linux_unix/Fedora_11_Leonidas_Begins_it_s_Reign) if you like it.

[MikeTheC]

Fedora 11 64 bit is in acquisition now via BT.

The Pre-Release was fairly decent.

[billgoldberg]

Just bought a new laptop (toshiba l300-1DN) and I'm going to install Fedora on it.

I already tested it on my desktop and I'm very pleased with it.

[rookcifer]

If you have a Soundblaster Live! or Audigy soundcard (that uses the emu10k1 drivers) you will have a horrible experience with F11. You will have kernel failures. I, and several others, filed at bug report at bugzilla and no one even triaged it. All I hear, weeks after the bug reports, are crickets chirping. That's why I left Fedora and came to Kubuntu.

And, I really wish Ubuntu would copy Fedora's whole disk encryption option. All you have to do in Fedora is click the "encrypt" button, and voila, you have all your partitions encrypted and set-up in LVM.

[nmccrina]

Keep looking... One the mirror I hit was D/L'ing at ~900MB/s or so. Done in 15 minutes.

Ah... Here it is (if you don't mind an http download): http://mirror.anl.gov/pub/fedora/linux/releases/11/Live/

Thanks! It is much faster! \\:D/

[unknownPoster]

Some of both, I guess... Ext4 is, in my opinion, pushing the envelope just a little? I mean it's an option when you install Jaunty, but the user has to specifically change the file-system setting from the default (of Ext3) during setup. Going with Ext4 by default just seems... I dunno... a little balls-y I guess. But, that's Fedora for you!

I guess it could be. Arch has been including EXT4 in the .iso since February I think...

I've used EXT4 with no problems, but that's just anecdotal evidence.

[rookcifer]

Ext4 is not unstable. Where do people get that idea?

[Therion]

Ext4 is not unstable. Where do people get that idea?
I didn't mean to imply it's not stable. I certainly didn't say it was unstable. Only mild surprise to see included as the default FS in F11.

By the same token it is JUST now "stable" (as of 2.6.28, IIRC) so yes, it's stable. Much the same way a cookie fresh from the oven is stable.

Mmmm... Cookies.

[ghindo]

I'll download it when I get some free time and dual boot with Karmic. Very interested in trying Fedora out!
Ext4 is not unstable. Where do people get that idea?https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/317781

[rookcifer]

I'll download it when I get some free time and dual boot with Karmic. Very interested in trying Fedora out!https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/317781

That bug is not the fault of ext4. It is the fault of the way applications are programmed. Theodore Ts'o has explained (https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/317781/comments/45) this several times.

[Therion]

Wow, I can't believe I missed that, it was right there under my nose.
I dunno... Huge nose?



;)

[ghindo]

That bug is not the fault of ext4. It is the fault of the way applications are programmed. Theodore Ts'o has explained (https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/317781/comments/45) this several times.Nonetheless, I think that reports of ext4 data loss have lead a lot of people to believe that ext4 is unstable.

[Therion]

Nonetheless, I think that reports of ext4 data loss have lead a lot of people to believe that ext4 is unstable.
+1

One could argue that using Ext4 causes (potential) data loss, which could be interpreted AS instability.

Once data-loss occurs you can finger point all you want but since the issue exists with '4, and not with '3 people will, rightly or wrongly, call Ext4 unstable.

[Twitch6000]

Well I will be trying this today or tomorrow myself.

I am not to big a fan with rpm distro's,but fedora seems like it will be worthy to try :).

[HappyFeet]

See www.distrowatch.com for download details.

For me, the last 2 releases weren't good. If this one is glitchy, it will be a long time before I try it again.

[Therion]

Come join us...

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1182740

[HappyFeet]

Is there still aproblem with grub and ext4?

[overdrank]

Threads merged :)

[unknownPoster]

Is there still aproblem with grub and ext4?

what do you mean?

I've never had a problem with it on Arch...

[HappyFeet]

I started downloading it immediately by torrent, and it is s...l...o...w.

Getting it via torrent right now using transmission. No speed problems here. It's not blazing fast, but ~350k/sec. is OK.

[Regenweald]

Grub 2 by default also :)?

[HappyFeet]

what do you mean?

I've never had a problem with it on Arch...

I heard you had to have a separate boot partition and make it ext3.

[Dragonbite]

Is there still aproblem with grub and ext4?

What I've done, with Jaunty, was /boot as ext2 and / as ext4 and /home either stays ext3 or set up as ext4.

Look forward to trying it out, though that means I've got to clear a computer and they are all kinda occupied right now (drat!).

[nmccrina]

Getting it via torrent right now using transmission. No speed problems here. It's not blazing fast, but ~350k/sec. is OK.

Yeah, I'm probably uploading to you, dammit. :p I was uploading at about 100k/sec, but only downloading at like 10k/sec. :(

So I switched to the mirror that the one guy linked to.

[Therion]

Look forward to trying it out, though that means I've got to clear a computer and they are all kinda occupied right now (drat!).
This is what spare hard drives are for. The time savings alone makes it worth buying something on the cheap for quickie swap-and-install routines.

NOT a distro ***** speaking from experience.

[nmccrina]

Alright, guys, the iso burn is complete!

I'm beginning the install. We'll see if the wireless works (always a dicey prospect). Hopefully, I'll be back online in about 15 minutes. See ya! ):P

[Dragonbite]

This is what spare hard drives are for. The time savings alone makes it worth buying something on the cheap for quickie swap-and-install routines.

NOT a distro ***** speaking from experience.

Yeah, but my spare hard drives are occupied as well! ;)

[nmccrina]

Well, the wireless works from the LiveCD. That's always a good sign! :D

Atheros ar242x chipset, BTW

[Therion]

Yeah, but my spare hard drives are occupied as well! ;)
Dude! I... I...

<contemplates your awesomeness>

Wow...




/Leaving work early to play with my new LiveCD...

[Dragonbite]

Dude! I... I...

<contemplates your awesomeness>

Wow...




/Leaving work early to play with my new LiveCD...

oh waaaiiiiit......
<eyes 8GB USB pen drive just reformatted>
:biggrin:

[Dougie187]

The games spin is a nice idea. How long have they been doing that? That might be an idea worth doing over here... Though I am unsure if someone has already tried that, given there was at some point some sort of "Games Remix" but I don't know if it was as extensive as this game spin. For those of you who didn't notice it...

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Games_Spin

[jedimasterk]

Old Looking UI

http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/9804/78070306.th.jpg (http://img34.imageshack.us/my.php?image=78070306.jpg)

[hanzomon4]

I actually tried the kde version and it's anything but old looking... it configured my trackpad with perfect defaults too. Granted OS X is still my baby but it's not really the looks that make it so

[scottuss]

What was the actual point of that post? I'm sat on a Mac now and I hate the UI. I have little choice (my situation is complicated) But at work I use Fedora on my desktop every day. I get things done and find the UI to be much better than OS X.

[omar8]

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/1046/shelf.jpg

There is this mock up by someone in the Ubuntu Design sub forum which I think looks very modern (I have already stated so on that forum). If any distro could actually set some guidelines it would be Ubuntu due to its position as the most popular Linux OS. I think Ubuntu could design it's own DE (maybe one like the mock up) and get developers like mozilla to port their programs to match the design of the OS.

[Therion]

I am posting this FROM a fresh (hard drive) install of Fedora 11. Just finished doing updates (62 of them).

First Impressions? Wow. All the polish that you've come to expect from Fedora (you know it's true).

Hardware recognition has been good so far on my system: Sound card, BOTH spare hard drives (one internal one external). No restricted driver manager though. :( Not crazy about the theme and the base-install of software is limited (no Open Office by default, for instance). Synpatic is not installed either. All this is pretty easily rectified however.

Boot time is snappy. They've nailed their goal of 20s from GRUB to GDM on my system anyway.

EDIT:

Package managment is a bit pokey, but I imagine the servers are pretty slammed right now so I'll let that slide. Not horrible delays, but slower than what I'm used to.

Overall, I'm seriously impressed. Need to install some packages and tweak things, no doubt, but for an out of the box experience, there's some seriously awesome stuff going on here.

[FuturePilot]

Appearance is subjective.

[ghindo]

Synpatic is not installed either.Synaptic is an apt thing (synAPTic), and Fedora uses rpm.

[Therion]

Synaptic is an apt thing (synAPTic), and Fedora uses rpm
Yeah, forgot that minor detail. I'm learning about package management all over again as I type this.

A "fedora-restricted-extras" package is sorely needed...

[y6FgBn)~v]

I believe RPMFusion (http://rpmfusion.org/) is used for that purpose.

[northwestuntu]

that's one of my few problems i have with linux/ubuntu.

you open up the home folder or some of the default programs and it just looks so plain. that's why i like to use programs like firefox and songbird because you can skin the program.

it's too big of a deal though.

[HermanAB]

Who cares what it looks like? Does it work?

[Therion]

Who cares what it looks like? Does it work?
Bit of a learning curve for me here, but yes... It works.

Like a mofo...

[nmccrina]

I am also now posting from a brand-new install of Fedora 11. I hit a few snags partitioning the hard drive, so I cancelled and put it off until I got back from piano lessons. Came back, and it worked!

Haven't really explored yet (I fired up Firefox and came directly here), but superficially it looks exactly like a blue Ubuntu (because of GNOME). :p

[hotweiss]

Does Fedora support dmraid out of the box?

[jedimasterk]

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/1046/shelf.jpg

There is this mock up by someone in the Ubuntu Design sub forum which I think looks very modern (I have already stated so on that forum). If any distro could actually set some guidelines it would be Ubuntu due to its position as the most popular Linux OS. I think Ubuntu could design it's own DE (maybe one like the mock up) and get developers like mozilla to port their programs to match the design of the OS.

That's not the "Default" look though. With the screenshot I posted, that is the default look of OSX. Looks way better than F11's default look. Their art team should be replaced.

[Therion]

Wish I had found this an hour or so ago: http://dnmouse.org/autoten.html

[hanzomon4]

I just installed the 64bit kde version on my macbook pro and omg it works so well. First the installer had an option to replace Ubuntu which I had to do because I only have one partition I can use for linux. I was freaked out when I realized that I needed a separate boot partition, the installer took care of this by automatically creating a boot partition and an LVM for /. After it installed I rebooted expecting it fail (due to the lvm) but it worked like a charm.

Just a note I've never liked Kde but since 4 I've tried it out every new release, it was never up to what I had come to expect after using gnome for so long. Anyway F11 KDE is great, I love it. I'm still using the new open source Nvidia driver and, while it can't do 3d, the UI is as smooth as OSX. Scrolling, moving windows, re-sizing windows, etc... Nothing stutters or hesitates, it just works as it's suppose to.

Resolution: Detected perfectly

Trackpad: Configured perfectly including twofinger+click for right clicking

WIFI: Works perfectly

Sound: Works perfectly

Screen backlight adjustment: works perfectly

Keyboard Backlight: Not yet, I need to pull a package

Special keys for screen brightness etc: Only volume but I can fix that I'm sure

Suspend/resume: Haven't tried it yet, a little nervous

I could not be happier, this is by far the most hassle free linux install I have experienced on my macbook pro. I'm sure I'm leaving something out but the main point.. it's awesome

[adrianx]

Wish I had found this an hour or so ago: http://easylifeproject.org/
There's also autoten (http://www.dnmouse.org/autoten.html) which is similar to easylife. I'm not sure if it is going to be called autoeleven...

[Lightsaber™]

Whoa servers are really busy....

[ad_267]

I was freaked out when I realized that I needed a separate boot partition, the installer took care of this by automatically creating a boot partition and an LVM for /.

That's interesting. I installed the beta a while back and used the manual partitioning option. I didn't realise I needed a separate boot partition and the installer complained about not being able to boot from an ext4 partition. Took me a little while to figure that one out.

I also couldn't get the Nvidia drivers to work, which I thought should have been pretty simple, so I gave up and installed Kubuntu 9.10 instead. Might give Fedora another go later on.

[jedimasterk]

If you have a Soundblaster Live! or Audigy soundcard (that uses the emu10k1 drivers) you will have a horrible experience with F11. You will have kernel failures. I, and several others, filed at bug report at bugzilla and no one even triaged it. All I hear, weeks after the bug reports, are crickets chirping. That's why I left Fedora and came to Kubuntu.

And, I really wish Ubuntu would copy Fedora's whole disk encryption option. All you have to do in Fedora is click the "encrypt" button, and voila, you have all your partitions encrypted and set-up in LVM.

Every Fedora Release is a driver disaster!. I remember when Fedora 8 or 9 came out and they had problems with Nvidia drivers. So no one could use Compiz till it was fixed after the "release". Fedora 10 and Plymouth only working with ATI cards, if you had Nvidia cards it didn't work. When I hear Fedora all I can think of is Betaware!.

[hanzomon4]

That's interesting. I installed the beta a while back and used the manual partitioning option. I didn't realise I needed a separate boot partition and the installer complained about not being able to boot from an ext4 partition. Took me a little while to figure that one out.

I also couldn't get the Nvidia drivers to work, which I thought should have been pretty simple, so I gave up and installed Kubuntu 9.10 instead. Might give Fedora another go later on.


Ahh.. I selected the "replace existing linux system" option. But you can't boot from ext4 so you have to have an ext3 /boot. You also can't just go full ext3 from the live cd, you need the non-live installed cd for that.

I haven't installed the Nvidia nvidia-drivers yet. The Open source one (forgot the name) is working so well I'm a little shocked. But I've used fedora before and the best way to get things like Closed drivers, codecs, etc.. is to use the community howtos/ cut and paste

[Kingsley]

That's interesting. I installed the beta a while back and used the manual partitioning option. I didn't realise I needed a separate boot partition and the installer complained about not being able to boot from an ext4 partition. Took me a little while to figure that one out.

I also couldn't get the Nvidia drivers to work, which I thought should have been pretty simple, so I gave up and installed Kubuntu 9.10 instead. Might give Fedora another go later on.
For reference, all you'd have to do is install the RPM Fusion repository. Then type into the command line: su -c 'yum install kmod-nvidia'

[ghindo]

That's interesting. I installed the beta a while back and used the manual partitioning option. I didn't realise I needed a separate boot partition and the installer complained about not being able to boot from an ext4 partition. Took me a little while to figure that one out.A separate /boot partition is required? Crap :(

[Therion]

I haven't installed the Nvidia nvidia-drivers yet.
http://www.fedorafaq.org/#nvidia

EDIT: I see Kingsley beat me to it.

I think the only thing I'm really suffering from right now is Server Slam (need some codecs and what not... I've got most everything else up and running though. Still a little unclear on package management in general though.

[Cam42]

Keep looking... One the mirror I hit was D/L'ing at ~900MB/s or so. Done in 15 minutes.

Ah... Here it is (if you don't mind an http download): http://mirror.anl.gov/pub/fedora/linux/releases/11/Live/

That's pretty quick, if you ask me.

[ad_267]

For reference, all you'd have to do is install the RPM Fusion repository. Then type into the command line: su -c 'yum install kmod-nvidia'

Yeah that's exactly what I did, but that didn't seem to do anything. I still couldn't enable any 3D effects and it still seemed to be using the Nouveau driver. I'm pretty busy at the moment so I might look into it a bit more another time.

And yeah, I remeber I did try to install / as ext3 after ext4 wouldn't work but it wouldn't let me do that either. So for anyone else using manual partitioning, you need an ext3 /boot.

[AdamWill]

If you have a Soundblaster Live! or Audigy soundcard (that uses the emu10k1 drivers) you will have a horrible experience with F11. You will have kernel failures. I, and several others, filed at bug report at bugzilla and no one even triaged it. All I hear, weeks after the bug reports, are crickets chirping. That's why I left Fedora and came to Kubuntu.

This is a mischaracterization, as you know perfectly well. This _only_ affects people who use S/PDIF, which is a small minority (the vast majority use analog output). The bug has been assigned to the appropriate team, the kernel maintainers.

Bug is https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=502698 , if anyone's interested.

[Dragonbite]

Package managment is a bit pokey, but I imagine the servers are pretty slammed right now so I'll let that slide. Not horrible delays, but slower than what I'm used to.

Overall, I'm seriously impressed. Need to install some packages and tweak things, no doubt, but for an out of the box experience, there's some seriously awesome stuff going on here.

I've read for speeding up the repositories run
yum install yum-presto


I actually tried the kde version and it's anything but old looking...

Yeah, I'm tempted for the KDE version. Did you use the LiveCD or a full-choice installation? I've heard the LiveCD includes KOffice, not OpenOffice. This fits in well with a project I wanted to do, using a KDE centric installation where KDE "family" applications are selected over Qt based ones, which are selected over non-KDE or non-Qt (GTK, Java, Etc).

I would use a DVD except I can't seem to download one (slower broadband speed, downloads never seem to come out right) plus I don't have a DVD drive for my test laptop.


That's interesting. I installed the beta a while back and used the manual partitioning option. I didn't realise I needed a separate boot partition and the installer complained about not being able to boot from an ext4 partition. Took me a little while to figure that one out.

This should not be a surprise, it's the same issue with Jaunty! That's why I did a
/boot as ext2
/ as ext4
/home as ext3 since it had pre-existing data (ext4 if I was clean-installing)
with my Jaunty installations.

[ad_267]

This should not be a surprise, it's the same issue with Jaunty! That's why I did a
/boot as ext2
/ as ext4
/home as ext3 since it had pre-existing data (ext4 if I was clean-installing)
with my Jaunty installations.

Are you sure? I just have / as ext4 with no extra /boot.

[FuturePilot]

I've read for speeding up the repositories run
yum install yum-presto



Yeah, I'm tempted for the KDE version. Did you use the LiveCD or a full-choice installation? I've heard the LiveCD includes KOffice, not OpenOffice. This fits in well with a project I wanted to do, using a KDE centric installation where KDE "family" applications are selected over Qt based ones, which are selected over non-KDE or non-Qt (GTK, Java, Etc).

I would use a DVD except I can't seem to download one (slower broadband speed, downloads never seem to come out right) plus I don't have a DVD drive for my test laptop.



This should not be a surprise, it's the same issue with Jaunty! That's why I did a
/boot as ext2
/ as ext4
/home as ext3 since it had pre-existing data (ext4 if I was clean-installing)
with my Jaunty installations.


Are you sure? I just have / as ext4 with no extra /boot.

Grub in Jaunty has an Ext4 patch. You don't need a separate /boot on Jaunty with Ext4 as /.

[rookcifer]

For reference, all you'd have to do is install the RPM Fusion repository. Then type into the command line: su -c 'yum install kmod-nvidia'

I recommend "yum install akmod-nvidia." Akmod is superior for a number of reasons, namely that if you upgrade kernels, a new nvidia module will be automatically built for you.

[jsmidt]

I just installed Fedora 11. Everything seems to be working fine and is faster and snappier. :)

It's definitely worth a try if you are contemplating it.

[HappyFeet]

I just installed Fedora 11. Everything seems to be working fine and is faster and snappier. :)

It's definitely worth a try if you are contemplating it.

I'm using it as we speak. I running the 64bit gnome with ext4. I have to say I'm very impressed. This is the first Fedora release that I really like a lot.

Installed the nvidia drivers and have twinview set up perfectly. Everything works great. It even prompted me to install the firmware needed for my tv card. It has definitely changed my mind about Fedora. I might possibly be using it as part of a triple boot. Job well done! :D

[HappyFeet]

I remember when Fedora 8 or 9 came out and they had problems with Nvidia drivers.

When I hear Fedora all I can think of is Betaware!.

The Nvidia 180 drivers are working a treat on my 9500GT.

Betaware? Not sure about that, but things seem to be working very well. I can't say that about previous releases though. Overall very happy with it.

[gnomeuser]

Grub in Jaunty has an Ext4 patch. You don't need a separate /boot on Jaunty with Ext4 as /.

The ext4 developer in Fedora unfortunately is kinda hard to work with (https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=486284).

I tried to get the patch into F11 but as you can see it failed for lack of time to do testing. Currently I am pushing it hard for F12 if we retain grub1 as our bootloader, if we switch to grub2 then it shouldn't be needed.

[gnomeuser]

Every Fedora Release is a driver disaster!. I remember when Fedora 8 or 9 came out and they had problems with Nvidia drivers. So no one could use Compiz till it was fixed after the "release". Fedora 10 and Plymouth only working with ATI cards, if you had Nvidia cards it didn't work. When I hear Fedora all I can think of is Betaware!.

You are misunderstanding Fedora's approach. We would rather fix the free drivers, which is why Dave Airlie (one of the upstream ATI driver maintainers) and Ben Skeggs (one of the Nouveau driver maintainers) are on Red Hats payroll along with a number of other people who work on Xorg.

We do not ship non-free drivers, we do not halt progress of free software because of them. We can't fix them so we leave that to the respective vendors. Instead we try to offer a solution that will work out of the box. The secondary problem those drivers present us is that they are poorly written and cause instability as well as hard to track down bugs in random applications due to misuse of the stack by these two drivers, as there is limited resources available to handle those bugs, we aim to not taint the kernel.

In F11 that has come to fruition for owners of the ATI cards who should as a whole now have 3d acceleration, kernel modesetting and dri2 support out of the box without a need for non-free drivers. We also ship nouveau for nvidia cards but these only have kernel modesetting for the Geforce8 series cards and XV acceleration for all supported cards, no 3d acceleration yet.

If you want these drivers, they are available from rpmfusion.org, they are tested prior to release by the community, if there are known incompatabilities they will be noted on the rpmfusion website. We do politely ask that you attempt to reproduce any bugs you might find without the driver loaded as well to ease the workload of our maintainers. RPMfusion is also where you find your codecs and other thing that Fedora cannot legally ship as well as packages of the purely proprietary nature.

I am sorry you think Fedora is betaware, we try to produce the finest Linux experience we can within the strict limits of it also being an experience we can fix and improve. To that goal our sponsors kindly provide us with access to full time developers trying to improve those functionality gaps this approach creates.

[zeroseven0183]

I just stumbled on this thread and now I'm downloading... Thanks!


Finished!

[bekind2thenoob]

Hmm... no kms on my 8500gt :(

works a treat on my missus laptop though (Intel).

[Dragonbite]

So far so good. I downloaded both the Gnome and KDE version LiveCDs and got the KDE version installed on my USB stick (via uNetbootin) and gave it a go last night! Looks very good!

I'm not as familiar with KDE (4.2?) as I am with Gnome so I need to learn the KDE way of doing things in addition to the Fedora way. Like adding Flash to Konqerer, and drivers for my Broadcom wireless, but that just takes time and reading to do.

At least I find the Fedora way a little simpler to hop to from Ubuntu than openSUSE's Yast.

So far, I like it! As always, I like what the Art Team has done too!

[billgoldberg]

Well after testing it out in VB, I tried installing it on my pc.

The live cd won't boot.

It gives


ata2 softreset failed .....
ata3 softreset failed .....

errors.

I had these errors on Ubuntu, but that still booted.

OpenSuse gave no such errors.

I already posted a thread about this on the Fedora support forum, but maybe one of you guys knows a solution also.

[gnomeuser]

Well after testing it out in VB, I tried installing it on my pc.

The live cd won't boot.

It gives

errors.

I had these errors on Ubuntu, but that still booted.

OpenSuse gave no such errors.

I already posted a thread about this on the Fedora support forum, but maybe one of you guys knows a solution also.

The Fedora Support forums is not the correct place for a bug report. Please go to bugzilla.redhat.com and file a bug against the kernel package. If you put me on cc (gnomeuser at gmail dot com) then I keep my eye on your problem.

[growled]

I tried 11 last night and I honestly wasn't impressed. I tried the KDE version. I really prefer Kubuntu. It works well for me. It's updated to 4.2.4 and I would have to down grade to 4.2.2 to use Fedora. Also, it's bad enough to have KOffice, but at least put the new version on there and not the old one.

And as for making a ext2/3 /boot partition...forget it. Not going to happen here.

[gnomeuser]

Hmm... no kms on my 8500gt :(

works a treat on my missus laptop though (Intel).

if it's a series 8 Geforce card you can add modeset.nouveau=1 to grub and it will enable kms. It might give you a little warning, this is not anything to worry about, it's just because the module upon loading doesn't understand the argument.

Your version of card (provided you have rev 1) was tested at the nouveau test day and it has functional KMS support. However nouveau KMS was deemed to be to risky to be enabled by default so you need to enable it yourself. According to Ben Skeggs the code is currently in a very good shape though so it should be safe, and at any rate reversable if it turns out to have defect (then please file a bug and add me to cc gnomeuser at gmail dot com)

[ssam]

Does anyone know if I install Fedora 11 on another partition - will it list my Ubuntu in GRUB?

even if it does it wont update them when ubuntu gets a kernel update.

i advise getting fedora to install its grub on its own partition (eg /dev/sda5 not /dev/sda) (its an option in the installer). then add something like this to ubuntus /boot/grub/menu.list


title sda5 - Fedora
root (hd0,4)
chainloader +1
savedefault


of course adjust it to point to the right partition (note that grub counts from zero, so sda1 is hd0,0)

the makes ubuntu's grub chainload fedora's grub.

[adrianx]

The Fedora Support forums is not the correct place for a bug report. Please go to bugzilla.redhat.com and file a bug against the kernel package. If you put me on cc (gnomeuser at gmail dot com) then I keep my eye on your problem.
Hi,

The "ata softreset failed" bug is already reported (against F10). https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468800

I doubt that it has much to do with billgoldberg's problem, though. As billgoldberg has mentioned, the bug is also present in Jaunty, but it doesn't seem to affect booting.

[Dragonbite]

Oh, this looks interesting! I'm going to give it a try at home, though my wife may not like it ;)

Fedora Game Spin (https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Games_Spin)
The Fedora Games spin offers a perfect show-case of the best games available in Fedora. The included games span several genres, from first person shooters to real-time and turn based strategy games to puzzle games. Not all the games available in Fedora are included on this spin, but trying out this spin will give you a fair impression of Fedora's abilities to run great games.

It's got a pretty nice list of games on that page too.

[Simian Man]

I'm not as familiar with KDE (4.2?) as I am with Gnome so I need to learn the KDE way of doing things in addition to the Fedora way. Like adding Flash to Konqerer, and drivers for my Broadcom wireless, but that just takes time and reading to do.

For Broadcom drivers, just 'yum install broacom-wl' once you have RPM Fusion (http://rpmfusion.org/Configuration/) setup. For Flash, I always get the yum version from Adobe directly (http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/).

I'm glad the response to 11 seems so positive. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet.

[billgoldberg]

Hi,

The "ata softreset failed" bug is already reported (against F10). https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=468800

I doubt that it has much to do with billgoldberg's problem, though. As billgoldberg has mentioned, the bug is also present in Jaunty, but it doesn't seem to affect booting.

Yes, I also read that bug report.

After some more digging in google, it seems nobody got a solution.

I could most likely remove my 2de hdd, then install Fedora and then put it back in, but I can't be bothered to do that.

I'm going to try to install it on my laptop instead.

That way I have Ubuntu, OpenSuse, Fedora, Vista and Windows 7 machines in the house.

:p

[AdamWill]

if it's a series 8 Geforce card you can add modeset.nouveau=1 to grub and it will enable kms. It might give you a little warning, this is not anything to worry about, it's just because the module upon loading doesn't understand the argument.

Your version of card (provided you have rev 1) was tested at the nouveau test day and it has functional KMS support. However nouveau KMS was deemed to be to risky to be enabled by default so you need to enable it yourself. According to Ben Skeggs the code is currently in a very good shape though so it should be safe, and at any rate reversable if it turns out to have defect (then please file a bug and add me to cc gnomeuser at gmail dot com)

I think it's nouveau.modeset=1 , not modeset.nouveau=1 .

[Therion]

I have to admit Fedora 11 is rocking my boxers. I don't know what all the fuss is about with the partitioning and the LiveCD but I took the default install off the LiveCD (64-bit if it matters) and so far it's been nothing but smooooooth sailing.

I managed to get Flash and Java installed, and multimedia codecs but only because of a script I found that pretty much did everything for me point-and-click style.

I'm running into a pretty steep learning curve with the whole package management thing in Fedora, however. I'm not familiar with their repos or how to install/uninstall packages; basic stuff like that. So if someone knows where to find a good introduction to using YUM that would be great.

[Closed_Port]

I have to admit Fedora 11 is rocking my boxers. I don't know what all the fuss is about with the partitioning and the LiveCD but I took the default install off the LiveCD (64-bit if it matters) and so far it's been nothing but smooooooth sailing.

I managed to get Flash and Java installed, and multimedia codecs but only because of a script I found that pretty much did everything for me point-and-click style.

I'm running into a pretty steep learning curve with the whole package management thing in Fedora, however. I'm not familiar with their repos or how to install/uninstall packages; basic stuff like that. So if someone knows where to find a good introduction to using YUM that would be great.
Haven't used Fedora for quite some time now and haven't had a chance to check out Fedora 11, so I don't really know how good it is now, but in the past I always found fedoraguide very helpful:

http://www.fedoraguide.info/index.php?title=Fedora11

[Therion]

... I always found fedoraguide very helpful:

http://www.fedoraguide.info/index.php?title=Fedora11
Wow... That's pretty much exactly what I wanted.

Thanks mucho!





/Will this spell the end of my Ubuntu love affair?
//I can't promise anything at this point.

[jsmidt]

Fedora 11 has convinced me that it is possible to have great boot times with KMS+Plymouth.

I am now officially sad to hear Ubuntu dropping Plymouth in order to have faster boot times. The reality is Fedora 11 boots faster than Ubuntu 9.04 with both Plymouth and KMS activated.

Furthermore, Fedora boots over twice as fast as it did a year ago. If they pull this off again, Fedora 13 which will come out at the same time as 10.04, will also have a 10 second boot without having to sacrifice KMS or Plymouth.

Great engineering Fedora devs.

It's also nice to be running Firefox 3.5 which has some cool new features and is also noticeably faster that Firefox 3.0.

[binbash]

Fedora 11 has convinced me that it is possible to have great boot times with KMS+Plymouth.

I am now officially sad to hear Ubuntu dropping Plymouth in order to have faster boot times. The reality is Fedora 11 boots faster than Ubuntu 9.04 with both Plymouth and KMS activated.

Furthermore, Fedora boots over twice as fast as it did a year ago. If they pull this off again, Fedora 13 which will come out at the same time as 10.04, will also have a 10 second boot without having to sacrifice KMS or Plymouth.

Great engineering Fedora devs.

It's also nice to be running Firefox 3.5 which has some cool new features and is also noticeably faster that Firefox 3.0.

I agree with this

[bekind2thenoob]

if it's a series 8 Geforce card you can add modeset.nouveau=1 to grub and it will enable kms.

cools its working now! and it is the other way round btw;)

[HappyFeet]

Are you sure? I just have / as ext4 with no extra /boot.

I know I had to make a small (200mb) partition as ext3 for boot. But that no big deal, took 5 seconds. It wouldn't let me proceed until I did that.

[silverbyte1]

I have to admit Fedora 11 is rocking my boxers. I don't know what all the fuss is about with the partitioning and the LiveCD but I took the default install off the LiveCD (64-bit if it matters) and so far it's been nothing but smooooooth sailing.

I managed to get Flash and Java installed, and multimedia codecs but only because of a script I found that pretty much did everything for me point-and-click style.


Care to share the script?

[HappyFeet]

@silverbyte

Here (http://rpmfusion.org/Configuration) is RPM Fusion. Just click the link to install. Very easy.

[jsmidt]

It turns out Adobe houses an official Yum repository for Red Hat/Fedora on their website for flash player and Acrobat Reader. Just go to their FlashPlayer page (http://get.adobe.com/flashplayer/), and select: "Select version to download"-> "Yum for Linux". Then after that installs fire up Package kit and search for adobe and install the reader for your language as well as the flash player you want.

As for codecs, Happy Feet above has the link you want. After implementing RPMFusion you can then either install them by hand or click on something you want to play and let all of the Package Kit goodness direct you from there how to get the codecs you need.

Don't worry Ubuntu, the new AppCenter will hopefully catch up to Package Kit in this regard in the next couple of releases.

[Dragonbite]

I'm curious if Fedora is going to have the same problems with the Broadcomm wi-fi that Ubuntu seems to have with loosing connections every-so-often.

Or in my case, all indicators show that I'm connected but there is nothing being passed back-and-forth and everything times out until I reconnect. Somebody said it is because of the WEP and Kernel combination.

I'd rather not have to go with the alternative of opening up the router just to maintain a connection!

[JK3mp]

I'm curious if Fedora is going to have the same problems with the Broadcomm wi-fi that Ubuntu seems to have with loosing connections every-so-often.

Or in my case, all indicators show that I'm connected but there is nothing being passed back-and-forth and everything times out until I reconnect. Somebody said it is because of the WEP and Kernel combination.

I'd rather not have to go with the alternative of opening up the router just to maintain a connection!

That is a seriouse issue :(, i had same problem with Ubuntu 8.10, but with Jaunty no more probs.

[Therion]

@silverbyte

Here (http://rpmfusion.org/Configuration) is RPM Fusion. Just click the link to install. Very easy.
No, actually I was referring to Autoten.

@silverbyte: Find it (Autoten script) here: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=171660

[Dragonbite]

That is a seriouse issue :(, i had same problem with Ubuntu 8.10, but with Jaunty no more probs.

Mine was opposite.. 8.04 it worked fine, but 9.04 it's been spotty.

[jsmidt]

I'm curious if Fedora is going to have the same problems with the Broadcomm wi-fi that Ubuntu seems to have with loosing connections every-so-often.

You can always pop in a Fedora 11 live CD and see. I do not know if the Live CD has as good of Hardware detection as a complete install, it might, but it is worth a shot.

[Dragonbite]

You can always pop in a Fedora 11 live CD and see. I do not know if the Live CD has as good of Hardware detection as a complete install, it might, but it is worth a shot.

I'm going to be installing it anyway on my test harddrive which will be easier since I'll have to install the (proprietary) Broadcom drivers myself and I'd rather not have to do that each time I try it out!

[gnomeuser]

I'm curious if Fedora is going to have the same problems with the Broadcomm wi-fi that Ubuntu seems to have with loosing connections every-so-often.


If it does, can you please go to bugzilla.redhat.com and file a bug against the kernel and assign it to John Linville (linville at redhat dot com). He is the upstream maintainer for the wifi stack works for Red Hat.

I am sure he would love to have a bug tracking those issues and hopefully if it is present, we will be able to fix it for you.

[gnomeuser]

cools its working now! and it is the other way round btw;)

Wow, that will teach me to recite grub arguments from memory instead of actually looking them up. I apologize.

However if you reboot a few times and bask in the glory that is KMS+Plymouth I hope you can find forgivenness for me :)

[HappyFeet]

No, actually I was referring to Autoten.

@silverbyte: Find it (Autoten script) here: http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=171660

Yeah, I know you were. I was just pointing him to the rpmfusion repos. Once those are installed, adding codecs and non-free stuff is easy in the package manager.

[jsmidt]

I'm going to be installing it anyway on my test harddrive which will be easier since I'll have to install the (proprietary) Broadcom drivers myself and I'd rather not have to do that each time I try it out!

Well, as much as I am enjoying Fedora, I don't know how well it will do with proprietary stuff. Good luck.

[vamped]

Does anyone know if I install Fedora 11 on another partition - will it list my Ubuntu in GRUB?

Perhaps not. It didn't recognize mine or many other people's. I think it has something to do with different versions of grub.

You'll have to manually add it to the grub configuration.

[MikeTheC]

I've got Fedora up and running here.

There's much I like about it, but that's all on the technical side. The problem is that it lacks some of the design choices and sensibilities that really make Ubuntu superior for regular users.

For instance, the process you have to go through to get an nVidia driver is far more cumbersome and less obvious (and absolutely not intuitive whatsoever). The same is largely true with getting Java 100% no exceptions up and going, and Flash, etc.

I still can't get any audio in some of the games, like GnomeFallingBlocks.

So, this is still not a bed of roses by any stretch.

[ghindo]

Perhaps not. It didn't recognize mine or many other people's. I think it has something to do with different versions of grub.

You'll have to manually add it to the grub configuration.I've always been a bit confused on how this works as well; which is a shame, because I really want to dual boot Fedora and Ubuntu.

Can anybody help shed some light on this? Thanks :popcorn:

[ad_267]

I've always been a bit confused on how this works as well; which is a shame, because I really want to dual boot Fedora and Ubuntu.

Can anybody help shed some light on this? Thanks :popcorn:

I used the manual partitioning option and just added a section for Fedora to my menu.lst from Ubuntu. You could probably also use chain loading but I haven't tried that.

[hanzomon4]

Suspend works out of box... Wow, I'm just amazed this is an awesome distro if Ubuntu had this much polish or if Fedora had Ubuntu's ease of use Linux would be king

[HappyFeet]

I've always been a bit confused on how this works as well; which is a shame, because I really want to dual boot Fedora and Ubuntu.

Can anybody help shed some light on this? Thanks :popcorn:

I just unplugged my ubuntu drive while I installed Fedora. Now I can just choose which drive to boot to with F12. Crude but effective.

[dspari1]

I just tried it out, and I'm sadly disappointed that I can't join in on the distro that Linus and NASA uses because of hardware incompatibility.

I reported that kdebluetooth4 doesn't work on my Dell D630 back when the first beta came out, but now the final release came out and it's not fixed (Bluetooth works fine in the Gnome version).

I don't want to sound ungrateful since the Fedora team doesn't owe me a dime, and I appreciate all the work they've done. However, if my hardware doesn't work out of the box on Fedora, and it's working in all the other distros, I have to keep using the other distros.

:(

[Dragonbite]

Well, as much as I am enjoying Fedora, I don't know how well it will do with proprietary stuff. Good luck.

I managed to get it running on F10 previously, with a little work. Not as easy as Ubuntu's Hardware Drivers, but doable.

[ukripper]

So hows Fedora 11 now? I used it last when it was Fedora 5

[MikeTheC]

It continues to make progress. I last really used it back in the FC1 - FC3 days.

On the whole, it's still not as nice as Ubuntu.

[zekopeko]

It continues to make progress. I last really used it back in the FC1 - FC3 days.

On the whole, it's still not as nice as Ubuntu.

it's targeting different demographics. it's more of a developer/power-user oriented distro

[MikeTheC]

it's targeting different demographics. it's more of a developer/power-user oriented distro

Yeah, that comes through rather apparently. It's sad in a way, I think, because I'd like to see more distros be end-user friendly.

[Dragonbite]

Yeah, that comes through rather apparently. It's sad in a way, I think, because I'd like to see more distros be end-user friendly.

That's why there's 1,000s of distributions (ok, maybe not that many..)!

For being "bleeding edge" and what-not, Fedora seems to be getting a little more stability minded lately which is nice.

I like fooling around some, but for my "production" systems (home computers used by the family) I want stability and ease so I go with Ubuntu.

Right now I have openSUSE 11.2 Milestone 2 on my test hard drive and am probably going to blow it out for Fedora 11 KDE.

Would be cool if somebody did a desktop-orientated Fedora/Red Hat based distribution or spin since Fedora is too unstable and bleeding edge and Red Hat (CentOS) is too stable and older versions.

[billgoldberg]

I installed Fedora on my laptop today (VM didn't count).

It's the first time I use Fedora. I picked the KDE 4 version.

Install:

The Anaconda installer crashed once during the partition.

I did the manual install, I created a 10 gb root partion and created 120gb /home partition.

Error. / cannot be EXT4.

Oh snap.

After a while I finally got / as EXT4, it turned out /boot just couldn't be EXT4. So now I have a seperate /boot / and /home.

Installation was very fast. 10 minutes, mabye even less.

Fedora's boot is gorgeous. It puts Ubuntu to shame, but that might change in Karmic.

The KDM login manager is equally nice.

KDE 4.2 is already beautiful and the wallpaper is pretty great too.

All my hardware was detected OOTB, including wireless. That's great.

Vista on this laptop takes around 30 seconds before it's connected to my wireless router and on the internet. Fedora takes 2-3 seconds. Amazing.

But there are some small things that could have been better afterwards.

I added the RPM fusion repo, as gnomeuser had suggested a few days back, and whilst installing my updates, Kpackagemanenger hung. Something about "Waiting for action" it told me. Great.

I killed it.

Kpackagemanager is a bit confusion. I can't tell if I am removing an application that is already installed or installing one that isn't.

I don't use Kpackagemanager anymore, I now use yum.

Codecs. I heard that I would get prompted to install codecs if I play a file that has no codec installed. Well, in the KDE version at least, that's not the case.

I added all the gstreamer codecs, yet Juk and Dragon player will not play a single mp3 file or video.

Compared to Ubuntu, Gentoo and Arch, even OpenSuse, I found that there hardly any info on these kinds of things on the internet.

I then installed VLC and that played, but audio was choppy. I had to change the audio output settings to "Simple Direct Layer ...".

Samba in Ubuntu is easy, not the case in Fedora. I haven't figured out yet on how to connect to my Windows 7 machine, while in Ubuntu it's a piece of cake.

Another annoyance was tapping on my touchpad. It seems that's disabled by default now, but nobody told me. Unlike in Gnome, there is no GUI to change that in KDE. I took me an hour or so to find out I had to use the "synclient" command.

I'm sure a lot of these little annoyances are because I'm using KDE (which I'm not familiar with at all) and a new OS at the same time.

But all by all, I'm loving this distro and I'll be using it at least until Karmic comes out.

Edit: I forgot to mention that after installing Fedora next to Vista, grub could not boot Vista. I had to manually edit grub to get Vista booting again. That should not happen.

[stmiller]

I just tried it out, and I'm sadly disappointed that I can't join in on the distro that Linus and NASA uses because of hardware incompatibility.

I reported that kdebluetooth4 doesn't work on my Dell D630 back when the first beta came out, but now the final release came out and it's not fixed (Bluetooth works fine in the Gnome version).

I don't want to sound ungrateful since the Fedora team doesn't owe me a dime, and I appreciate all the work they've done. However, if my hardware doesn't work out of the box on Fedora, and it's working in all the other distros, I have to keep using the other distros.

:(


That's not "hardware" incompatibility. bluetooth under KDE4 is highly experimental with ALL distros right now. As you said the gnome bluetooth works fine....

[mamamia88]

i'm thinking of installing it too if anyone would be willing to point me to directions on how to restore ubuntu to grub when done i would be very grateful

[gnomeuser]

So hows Fedora 11 now? I used it last when it was Fedora 5

Fedora 11 is great. It's the Fedora we know and love with new features, sexier bling and pleasant theme (for once IMHO). It's state of the art technology in a pleasing package.

Fedora is more daring than Ubuntu, Fedora drives technology and that shows in the feature list. With Fedora you get dew fresh technology and superior out of the box security in your hands every 6 months but it remains very usable.

As always there is the catch that Fedora works to improve open source, so they are not going to waste time dealing with problems caused by proprietary drivers, preferring instead to invest money and time to solve the underlying problem by producing free drivers. Also for legal reasons access to codec support is through a 3rd party such as RPMfusion.org or Fluendos excellent licensed products.

I am pleased with Fedora 11, it showcases what Free Software can do today and tomorrow. It leads the pack with regards to innovation while delivering a pleasant experience for even first time users (provided, I grant, that someone enabled rpmfusion for them).

[rookcifer]

But there are some small things that could have been better afterwards.

I added the RPM fusion repo, as gnomeuser had suggested a few days back, and whilst installing my updates, Kpackagemanenger hung. Something about "Waiting for action" it told me. Great.

Usually means that there is more than one instance of it running. You can just open your process manager and kill all instances of it and then try again.


I added all the gstreamer codecs, yet Juk and Dragon player will not play a single mp3 file or video

Gstreamer is a Gnome thing. For KDE, Xine is usually used. That might be your problem since Juk and Dragon are both KDE apps. Gstreamer will work in KDE, but I am not sure if the KDE apps will support it.


I'm sure a lot of these little annoyances are because I'm using KDE (which I'm not familiar with at all) and a new OS at the same time.

I would say it's more of you not being familiar with KDE. Fedora has a Gnome version -- in fact, KDE is an afterthought for Fedora.

[billgoldberg]

Gstreamer is a Gnome thing. For KDE, Xine is usually used. That might be your problem since Juk and Dragon are both KDE apps. Gstreamer will work in KDE, but I am not sure if the KDE apps will support it.



I would say it's more of you not being familiar with KDE. Fedora has a Gnome version -- in fact, KDE is an afterthought for Fedora.



I also installed Xine, didn't help. I now use VLC for everything. Thank god for it's "only allow one instance" feature.

Yes, I'm a KDE noob. I know. After using Gnome for that long, and with KDE4 looking that great I just have to use it.

[Simian Man]

Yes, I'm a KDE noob. I know. After using Gnome for that long, and with KDE4 looking that great I just have to use it.

LOL I have been using Red Hat/Fedora since starting Linux around 2003 and am always confused as hell whenever I try to log in to KDE :).

[drawkcab]

gunna fire it up on my mom's laptop and see if it handles the intel gpu any better than ubuntu 9.04

[vamped]

I've always been a bit confused on how this works as well; which is a shame, because I really want to dual boot Fedora and Ubuntu.

Can anybody help shed some light on this? Thanks :popcorn:

There are a lot of posts out about dualbooting, so you might want to do a search if the following doesn't answer your question - so this thread stays on topic.

One way to do it: if Ubuntu and Fedora are installed on the same drive - when installing Fedora, do manual partioning, create a boot partition. After the partitioning it will ask if you want to install grub. Tell it to install grub to Fedora's boot partition, not the MBR.

Then boot Ubuntu, edit /boot/grub/menu.lst, add (if Fedora boot partition is sda8 )

title Fedora
root (hd0,7)
configfile (hd0,7)/grub/menu.lst

[ukripper]

Is Fedora 11 better with KDE or GNOME?

[ad_267]

Is Fedora 11 better with KDE or GNOME?

The default is Gnome, but the KDE is pretty good too so it just depends what you prefer.

[jespdj]

I installed Fedora on my laptop today (VM didn't count).

It's the first time I use Fedora. I picked the KDE 4 version.

Install:

The Anaconda installer crashed once during the partition.
You're not the only one who has problems with the installer.

See Hands-on: new Fedora release goes up to 11 but doesn't rock (http://arstechnica.com/open-source/reviews/2009/06/hands-on-new-fedora-release-goes-up-to-11-but-doesnt-rock.ars) from Ars Technica.

[Dragonbite]

The Fedora LiveCD (KDE) I downloaded and added to my USB drive vis UNetbootin (on Ubuntu) worked perfectly.

It ran fine, it installed fine with only one warning popping up regarding SELinux but it didn't stop the installation or ruin it as far as I can see.

Booting into Fedora runs nicely, I got my broadcom wireless card working fine and it hasn't locked up like it does in Ubuntu 9.04 (I did not have any issues with it and 8.04 and 8.10, just 9.04 and there are a few threads regarding this in these forums from what I've heard).

So, so far so good. The only thing I have not working is KMail crashes every so often while connected to my Gmail account via IMAP.

[Frak]

I'm downloading it to try it, but I usually find some issue with it. Whenever I try it, something will inevitably crash or the cool new features they promise aren't enabled by default (like their animated graphical bootloader).

I'm hoping I'm not dissapointed this time.

[jprophet420]

cool, i might have to tri-boot kubuntu/Slackware/Fedora FTW.

[MikeTheC]

It installed and is running just fine here.

I've no concerns about it in that sense, only in the technical...

For the life of me I still cannot enable sound in some games, such as the Tetris one. Not sure why. But then other games work with no problems.

[adrianx]

You're not the only one who has problems with the installer.

See Hands-on: new Fedora release goes up to 11 but doesn't rock (http://arstechnica.com/open-source/reviews/2009/06/hands-on-new-fedora-release-goes-up-to-11-but-doesnt-rock.ars) from Ars Technica.
I think the reason it didn't bite me, is because I always do manual partitioning and I always do a clean install - never an upgrade. It helps improve my backup skills - not that I don't ever lose some important files... :). The reason I do manual partitioning is because I don't trust the "automatic" stuff all that much (especially LVM as default). I don't like a separate /home partition either, because I like to start afresh, every 6 months or so. Who knows, maybe some new features will be hidden because of settings that I had changed in previous releases.

[drawkcab]

Not too shabby. I am always a little lost in Fedora but it seems to be working very well with the newer intel hardware which is a good sign.

[gnomeuser]

Not too shabby. I am always a little lost in Fedora but it seems to be working very well with the newer intel hardware which is a good sign.

If you have questions, feel free to poke me in PM. I tend to know my way around Fedora so maybe I can help.

[Frak]

Well, I don't feel like installing it, and it fails in Virtualbox every time. I don't use VMWare because they decided to not support my processor's Virtualization set (VMWare is, for one, spread too thin, and two, some of the branches of their company are just plain lazy. Hardware virtualization is becoming more lazy every day. I can almost swear by it.)

[sefs]

I'm trying to install this in vmware on a 5 gb partition, but its not installing. I get the countdown sreen then it goes to a black screen and then nothing.

[Simian Man]

Fedora tends to be tricky in vms. I can get it going in Virtualbox but not with the guest additions. Possibly because they use newer versions of X or the kernel than most other distros.

[mthei]

I've just finished a session with the liveCD, and as usual with a Fedora release since 8, I'm very impressed. I probably won't switch back from Debian, as I'm so used to it by now and I don't feel like importing all of my backed up files.
What really pleases me to see is that with the current round of releases this spring from the major desktop distributions (Ubuntu, Fedora and Mandriva), memory usage has shrunk. Previous releases from Ubuntu and Fedora (8.10 and 10, respectively) would take up to 200mb of RAM for me (which isn't really a problem on my hardware), whereas the new ones hover around 130mb (both without cutting off unneeded processes), everything was properly configered with both, and suspend and resume works properly on both (which may have more to do with the Kernel than the actual OS).
If I had to choose between Ubuntu and Fedora, it would be a very tough call.

[Arup]

Yep I did, my verdict. Fedora will make even veteran Linux users go back to Windows. Plain and simple. Man what a piece of crud. My temptation was their implementation of the tool to develop Windows programs in Fedora and test them out in Win environment minus the need to install Win. Also newer kernel and so called promised GUI enhancements vis a vis graphic cards was another big lure. I installed and found out that the boot partition has to be ext 3 as Fedora can't yet boot from ext4, no such issues with Ubuntu Jaunty. After install the screen looked good and response was crispy. I decided to install Opera and thats where I ran into serious trouble. Opera wont' run after install, the rpm install process itself is a joke unlike the gdebi installer which is clear and transparent. Also the interface to add remove is vague. You also need to enable repositories via command line, another non-transparent method. After I clicked on Opera icon the installer hung around as an icon on the taskbar. After ten minutes or so without any positive indication, it informed me that Opera has been installed. I tried firing it up via the applications>internet icon and nothing happened. I then tried via terminal and was informed Opera can't find some libs like qt3 etc. That made me real mad, any dependency is first checked by gdebi and you are informed, then its pulled from the repository if needed. Fedora didn't do that and so I manually installed all the libs that were being indicated as missing. I fired up Opera and it wouldn't come up, gave the same reason. I then purged Opera and re-installed it again hoping the package installer would pick up the requisite libs, no go. Then it informed me about updates so I let that happen. The updates took forever and when they were done, I rebooted to run Opera again, no go. Finally I checked office suite and in the live CD version, there is no OO but Abiword. I then tried installing nvidia drivers via the .sh method. Even with the recommended binutils installed, it refused to install and kept complaining about kernel patch not allowed by SE Linux. SE Linux is the cousin of Windows anal HIPS, from time to time it keeps reminding you that its blocking this and that, and in case of nvidia driver install, its the most likely culprit. Well that was the time to do HEAVE HO THUDDDDD and IMHO, Ubuntu is the answer to Windows in Lin world. Fedora should go back to drawing board, actually PCLOS, Mint, SuSE, Sidux are better by miles. Ironically gnome Ubuntu CD comes with OO default, in case of Fedora CD, no such luck, only Abi Word and OO has to be downloaded separately.
With the newer 2.6.30 kernel installed, disk I/O is on par with Fedora 11 and actually boot is quicker due to Ubuntu allowing full ext4 root.

Granted I am a Fedora noob but then it needs to get more friendlier to win people over from other distros. It does have cutting edge stuff in it and thats the biggest lure.

[HappyFeet]

Man what a piece of crud.

I forgot that your computer is the gold standard by which all OS's are judged. :rolleyes:

I had no problems whatsoever with it.

[PmDematagoda]

I've been using Fedora 11 since beta and I love it as well, it was stable throughout development and still is. I also love the fact that HAL is being replaced with DeviceKit because now you have tools like palimpsest and also since it is just so much easier to develop for DeviceKit as it allows you to find the required information on devices with ease, which was the reason why I wrote a new plugin for gnome-sensors-applet(if you want it I can post the patch, it needs to be tested anyway). And I also love the Charge theme for Plymouth, IMO it looks very professional.

Although I didn't really like the new volume control at first, but after I managed to set the volumes properly with alsamixer -c0, I find it to be quite good.

[Arup]

I forgot that your computer is the gold standard by which all OS's are judged. :rolleyes:

I had no problems whatsoever with it.

Nah.........my dual quad core is coal, just because it works for you don't mean it does for all or does your PC be considered gold standard, check the net, the issues faced by me have been repeated with many including veteran Fedora users. After all the time they took to release this, certain issues could have been worked out before the release but I guess thats the price to pay for going cutting edge although so called cutting edge can't even accommodate ext4 as root even though the claim is that ext4 is standard.

This is not a hardware issue as I faced similar issues on a Phenom as well, in case of the Opera rpm install, the libs should have been pulled by during install or at least the user should be informed of the missing libs. Instead, it just hides itself on taskbar and hangs around for ages, in case of Debian, all you do is click on deb, it informs you of compatibility and pulls in requisite libs during install and its done in a flash. No drama.

[GCFreak]

Installed Fedora 11 over my corrupted 9.04 partition on my main PC a couple of days ago. I almost cannot be happier with it. I DO have issues, the volume control always changes back to defaults when a new sound starts playing, and I still for the life of me can't get SLI working properly with either nouveau or nvidia, but apart from that it's been smooth sailing. Plymouth is gorgeous and fast, as usual, Fedora is very snappy, stable, Firefox 3.5 is just awesome, Japanese language support out of the box, as usual, life is good for me.

[dspari1]

Yep I did, my verdict. Fedora will make even veteran Linux users go back to Windows. Plain and simple. Man what a piece of crud. My temptation was their implementation of the tool to develop Windows programs in Fedora and test them out in Win environment minus the need to install Win.

Also newer kernel and so called promised GUI enhancements vis a vis graphic cards was another big lure. I installed and found out that the boot partition has to be ext 3 as Fedora can't yet boot from ext4, no such issues with Ubuntu Jaunty. After install the screen looked good and response was crispy. I decided to install Opera and thats where I ran into serious trouble. Opera wont' run after install, the rpm install process itself is a joke unlike the gdebi installer which is clear and transparent.

Also the interface to add remove is vague. You also need to enable repositories via command line, another non-transparent method. After I clicked on Opera icon the installer hung around as an icon on the taskbar. After ten minutes or so without any positive indication, it informed me that Opera has been installed. I tried firing it up via the applications>internet icon and nothing happened. I then tried via terminal and was informed Opera can't find some libs like qt3 etc. That made me real mad, any dependency is first checked by gdebi and you are informed, then its pulled from the repository if needed. Fedora didn't do that and so I manually installed all the libs that were being indicated as missing.

I fired up Opera and it wouldn't come up, gave the same reason. I then purged Opera and re-installed it again hoping the package installer would pick up the requisite libs, no go. Then it informed me about updates so I let that happen. The updates took forever and when they were done, I rebooted to run Opera again, no go. Finally I checked office suite and in the live CD version, there is no OO but Abiword. I then tried installing nvidia drivers via the .sh method. Even with the recommended binutils installed, it refused to install and kept complaining about kernel patch not allowed by SE Linux. SE Linux is the cousin of Windows anal HIPS, from time to time it keeps reminding you that its blocking this and that, and in case of nvidia driver install, its the most likely culprit.

Well that was the time to do HEAVE HO THUDDDDD and IMHO, Ubuntu is the answer to Windows in Lin world. Fedora should go back to drawing board, actually PCLOS, Mint, SuSE, Sidux are better by miles. Ironically gnome Ubuntu CD comes with OO default, in case of Fedora CD, no such luck, only Abi Word and OO has to be downloaded separately.
With the newer 2.6.30 kernel installed, disk I/O is on par with Fedora 11 and actually boot is quicker due to Ubuntu allowing full ext4 root.

Granted I am a Fedora noob but then it needs to get more friendlier to win people over from other distros. It does have cutting edge stuff in it and thats the biggest lure.

I use Sabayon which is Gentoo based, and I don't have nearly the amount of problems that Fedora has been giving me. Fedora is suppose to be Red Hat's flagship community distro, and it's Linus' distro of choice, so I don't know what to say.

I can't believe that in this day in age, Red Hat is still having problems with dependency hell.

[barisurum]

Has anyone tried any realtime audio applications with this distro? Or tried the planet ccrma realtime patched kernel? I really wonder if this distro works with realtime audio!! [-o<

[dspari1]

That's not "hardware" incompatibility. bluetooth under KDE4 is highly experimental with ALL distros right now. As you said the gnome bluetooth works fine....


It's only Fedora that's giving me bluetooth issues under KDE, so it's unfair to blame the KDE team if only one distro is having issues. Even community distros that don't have any commercial backing are not giving me issues. (see attached)

All this tells me is that Fedora's KDE implementation is even worse than Kubuntu's.

[muep]

Yep I did, my verdict. Fedora will make even veteran Linux users go back to Windows. Plain and simple.

Doesn't make me. Maybe I'm just not what you'd call a veteran Linux user.



Man what a piece of crud.

An operating system, actually.



My temptation was their implementation of the tool to develop Windows programs in Fedora and test them out in Win environment minus the need to install Win. Also newer kernel and so called promised GUI enhancements vis a vis graphic cards was another big lure.




I installed and found out that the boot partition has to be ext 3 as Fedora can't yet boot from ext4, no such issues with Ubuntu Jaunty.

The Fedora could have applied a patch to allow Grub read ext4, but they decided that it still needed more testing. Ext3 is still available when not installing from a livecd, so you can keep using that if a separate /boot partition is a problem.



After install the screen looked good and response was crispy. I decided to install Opera and thats where I ran into serious trouble. Opera wont' run after install, the rpm install process itself is a joke unlike the gdebi installer which is clear and transparent. Also the interface to add remove is vague. You also need to enable repositories via command line, another non-transparent method. After I clicked on Opera icon the installer hung around as an icon on the taskbar. After ten minutes or so without any positive indication, it informed me that Opera has been installed.

The PackageKit tools are still a bit rough, but for example, the RPM Fusion repositories are usually installed by installing the rpm package that has their repository configs, which is available at their Web page. It should be installable by just downloading and opening the rpm file, without command line steps at all.



I tried firing it up via the applications>internet icon and nothing happened. I then tried via terminal and was informed Opera can't find some libs like qt3 etc. That made me real mad, any dependency is first checked by gdebi and you are informed, then its pulled from the repository if needed. Fedora didn't do that and so I manually installed all the libs that were being indicated as missing. I fired up Opera and it wouldn't come up, gave the same reason. I then purged Opera and re-installed it again hoping the package installer would pick up the requisite libs, no go. Then it informed me about updates so I let that happen. The updates took forever and when they were done, I rebooted to run Opera again, no go.

Fedora doesn't ship Opera, because it is not free software. You downloaded an unofficial package that didn't have the usual dependency information in it. The package was essentially broken, leaving the job of resolving the dependencies on the user, instead of the package management tools. Tell Opera to fix their packages.



Finally I checked office suite and in the live CD version, there is no OO but Abiword.

There is no space on the livecd for OO.o.



I then tried installing nvidia drivers via the .sh method.

Would have been a lot easier to install the drivers from the RPM Fusion repositories, instead of using Nvidia's installer, which usually just breaks stuff.



Even with the recommended binutils installed, it refused to install and kept complaining about kernel patch not allowed by SE Linux. SE Linux is the cousin of Windows anal HIPS, from time to time it keeps reminding you that its blocking this and that, and in case of nvidia driver install, its the most likely culprit.

SELinux is very useful in some situations, and if you'd not have tried to install from Nvidia's broken installer, you probably wouldn't have run into SELinux. On my machines, SELinux doesn't usually interfere at all, and when it does, it usually gives me information on what was blocked, why it was blocked, and how to prevent the policy to allow such actions in the future if that is what I want.



Well that was the time to do HEAVE HO THUDDDDD and IMHO, Ubuntu is the answer to Windows in Lin world. Fedora should go back to drawing board, actually PCLOS, Mint, SuSE, Sidux are better by miles.

They are just different. Fedora doesn't prioritize the new user as much as many other distributions do. This is good, because there still are dozens of good distributions targeted for new users. Fedora's goals are to advance free software by integrating new interesting free technologies into the distribution early, while still providing a stable and usable operating system for users to learn, use and maybe even extend those technologies.



Ironically gnome Ubuntu CD comes with OO default, in case of Fedora CD, no such luck, only Abi Word and OO has to be downloaded separately.

Why is this ironic? Due to leaving OO.o outside the livecd, it can include a lot more translations and other useful stuff. You just disagree with their decision on what is important to include in the livecd.



With the newer 2.6.30 kernel installed, disk I/O is on par with Fedora 11 and actually boot is quicker due to Ubuntu allowing full ext4 root.

It is very unlikely that the ext3 /boot directory (with just tens of megabytes of content) slows down the boot by any noticeable amount. Ubuntu may be faster to boot due to other reasons, though.



Granted I am a Fedora noob but then it needs to get more friendlier to win people over from other distros. It does have cutting edge stuff in it and thats the biggest lure.


Apart from just new software, other good reasons to use Fedora are:

Fedora is relatively strict about only shipping free software
Fedora generally doesn't patch software to deviate from upstream very much
Enhancement and feature updates even to stable releases' update sets
Nice package management ( Yes, I actually prefer Yum over Debian's apt* tools. )

[gnomeuser]

Yep I did, my verdict. Fedora will make even veteran Linux users go back to Windows. Plain and simple. Man what a piece of crud. My temptation was their implementation of the tool to develop Windows programs in Fedora and test them out in Win environment minus the need to install Win. Also newer kernel and so called promised GUI enhancements vis a vis graphic cards was another big lure. I installed and found out that the boot partition has to be ext 3 as Fedora can't yet boot from ext4, no such issues with Ubuntu Jaunty. After install the screen looked good and response was crispy. I decided to install Opera and thats where I ran into serious trouble. Opera wont' run after install, the rpm install process itself is a joke unlike the gdebi installer which is clear and transparent. Also the interface to add remove is vague. You also need to enable repositories via command line, another non-transparent method. After I clicked on Opera icon the installer hung around as an icon on the taskbar. After ten minutes or so without any positive indication, it informed me that Opera has been installed. I tried firing it up via the applications>internet icon and nothing happened. I then tried via terminal and was informed Opera can't find some libs like qt3 etc. That made me real mad, any dependency is first checked by gdebi and you are informed, then its pulled from the repository if needed. Fedora didn't do that and so I manually installed all the libs that were being indicated as missing. I fired up Opera and it wouldn't come up, gave the same reason. I then purged Opera and re-installed it again hoping the package installer would pick up the requisite libs, no go. Then it informed me about updates so I let that happen. The updates took forever and when they were done, I rebooted to run Opera again, no go. Finally I checked office suite and in the live CD version, there is no OO but Abiword. I then tried installing nvidia drivers via the .sh method. Even with the recommended binutils installed, it refused to install and kept complaining about kernel patch not allowed by SE Linux. SE Linux is the cousin of Windows anal HIPS, from time to time it keeps reminding you that its blocking this and that, and in case of nvidia driver install, its the most likely culprit. Well that was the time to do HEAVE HO THUDDDDD and IMHO, Ubuntu is the answer to Windows in Lin world. Fedora should go back to drawing board, actually PCLOS, Mint, SuSE, Sidux are better by miles. Ironically gnome Ubuntu CD comes with OO default, in case of Fedora CD, no such luck, only Abi Word and OO has to be downloaded separately.
With the newer 2.6.30 kernel installed, disk I/O is on par with Fedora 11 and actually boot is quicker due to Ubuntu allowing full ext4 root.

Granted I am a Fedora noob but then it needs to get more friendlier to win people over from other distros. It does have cutting edge stuff in it and thats the biggest lure.

For nvidia's crap go to rpmfusion.org, which I have mentioned about a million times in this thread already. Clearly you did not read the whole thread or you would know why installing it this way is the recommended route and why it is NOT included by default.

/boot on ext2/3 has also been explained maybe a million times in this thread, again you failed to listen and make false claims about boot time attributed to having /boot on ext3 rather than ext4. This has virtually zero impact what filesystem the kernel is read into memory from, the rest of your boot sequence is run from memory and read from your root partition.

The reason the LiveCD (and only the live cd) ships with abiword is for space constraints. OpenOffice and Firefox in their infinite wisdom have elected to not use the standard method for handling internationalization, Ubuntu has a rather smart system of pulling these down as part of the install but if you are on a non supported locale using the liveCD you get english and that is it. One downside of this approach is if you like me want to remove OpenOffice, if you remove all of it including the translations.. you lose the translations for all of your system. Bravo, how very retarded. It's a trade off, and there are ways to fit OpenOffice onto the CD. We can improve compression, factor out certain bits, remove other programs, we can also move to a LiveDVD. The problem remains that OpenOffice is rather bloated and if we want to offer a full OOo experience to all locales it is not going to happen on a CD which also has all the GNOME stuff. It's a tradeoff and regardless after the install you are more than welcome to add/remove whatever programs you like. You can also install from the DVD and you will get OpenOffice by default.

If you use third party packages, you can just click the package and it will resolve the dependencies for you using PackageKit. Doing it from the command line would be the hard and error prone way to install your proprietary browser, clearly you forced the install or rpm would have refused to even extract the rpm. Thus you brought this on your own sweet self. We are not going to put Opera in our repos as it is proprietary and thus conflicts with the freedom requirements for inclusion, however there is a request for it to go into rpmfusion so if you feel the need, go there and help out.

I hope that clears things up. Now please cease blaming failures brought about by your own doing on the Fedora developers when your own inability to read or research is the root cause.

[Dragonbite]

I've heard even-numbered releases were lucky while odd-numbered ones were not so good. I guess I'm odd because it mostly works for me, and that which doesn't isn't a system error, it is my lack of familiarity with Fedora.

so far.

[dspari1]

The reason the LiveCD (and only the live cd) ships with abiword is for space constraints. OpenOffice and Firefox in their infinite wisdom have elected to not use the standard method for handling internationalization, Ubuntu has a rather smart system of pulling these down as part of the install but if you are on a non supported locale using the liveCD you get english and that is it. One downside of this approach is if you like me want to remove OpenOffice, if you remove all of it including the translations.. you lose the translations for all of your system. Bravo, how very retarded. It's a trade off, and there are ways to fit OpenOffice onto the CD. We can improve compression, factor out certain bits, remove other programs, we can also move to a LiveDVD. The problem remains that OpenOffice is rather bloated and if we want to offer a full OOo experience to all locales it is not going to happen on a CD which also has all the GNOME stuff. It's a tradeoff and regardless after the install you are more than welcome to add/remove whatever programs you like. You can also install from the DVD and you will get OpenOffice by default.


I agree that LiveDVDs should become the standard these days so that neither features nor international users have to be left out.

[gnomeuser]

I agree that LiveDVDs should become the standard these days so that neither features nor international users have to be left out.

A few reasons they are not:

1) Lots of places cdrom drives and cdrom burners are still way more common than DVDs. I e.g. send Fedora upgrades to a school in Iran every 6 months and I have to do the cd split media version for them for this reason.

2) CDs are cheaper to have pressed meaning they will be cheaper to send out via ship-it type services or something like a magazine.

I predict though that both livecd and livedvd will give way to a liveUSB style media. Having presistent storage is very appealing for users as well as being able to take their entire desktop with them.

[Arup]

For nvidia's crap go to rpmfusion.org, which I have mentioned about a million times in this thread already. Clearly you did not read the whole thread or you would know why installing it this way is the recommended route and why it is NOT included by default.

/boot on ext2/3 has also been explained maybe a million times in this thread, again you failed to listen and make false claims about boot time attributed to having /boot on ext3 rather than ext4. This has virtually zero impact what filesystem the kernel is read into memory from, the rest of your boot sequence is run from memory and read from your root partition.

The reason the LiveCD (and only the live cd) ships with abiword is for space constraints. OpenOffice and Firefox in their infinite wisdom have elected to not use the standard method for handling internationalization, Ubuntu has a rather smart system of pulling these down as part of the install but if you are on a non supported locale using the liveCD you get english and that is it. One downside of this approach is if you like me want to remove OpenOffice, if you remove all of it including the translations.. you lose the translations for all of your system. Bravo, how very retarded. It's a trade off, and there are ways to fit OpenOffice onto the CD. We can improve compression, factor out certain bits, remove other programs, we can also move to a LiveDVD. The problem remains that OpenOffice is rather bloated and if we want to offer a full OOo experience to all locales it is not going to happen on a CD which also has all the GNOME stuff. It's a tradeoff and regardless after the install you are more than welcome to add/remove whatever programs you like. You can also install from the DVD and you will get OpenOffice by default.

If you use third party packages, you can just click the package and it will resolve the dependencies for you using PackageKit. Doing it from the command line would be the hard and error prone way to install your proprietary browser, clearly you forced the install or rpm would have refused to even extract the rpm. Thus you brought this on your own sweet self. We are not going to put Opera in our repos as it is proprietary and thus conflicts with the freedom requirements for inclusion, however there is a request for it to go into rpmfusion so if you feel the need, go there and help out.

I hope that clears things up. Now please cease blaming failures brought about by your own doing on the Fedora developers when your own inability to read or research is the root cause.

The errors I faced are not due to my fault or the fault of others trying to install Fedora, its basic implementation of Fedora thats at fault. Many are facing crashes with Anaconda and that include Fedora veterans as I have mentioned earlier.

Why would I be forced into installing older nvidia drivers from rpm fusion when I can install brand new ones from nvidia itself, I have been doing that since my SuSE 8 days and continue to do so till today? If all procedures are followed, it should install period. Obviously some things need to be weeded out. As for Opera, its not in Ubuntu repos either but it installs without hitch and gdebi pulls in the requisite packages. Are you aware on what to do to make Opera work. You need to do a yum install qt3* on Fedora Gnome. Do you honestly expect a first time Fedora user to have the divine vision to do that? How about someone coming over from Windows world. There is no mention of this on various Fedora guides either. I don't thing you have even touched this aspect and therefore have no idea at all. So in a nutshell, Fedora developers are assuming that someone attempting to use their distro first time to have some sort of premonition. I guess its their way of telling, don't you dare use any other browser apart from FF, kinda MS way ain't it. As for ext4 issue, its not about boot time which Ubuntu Jaunty beats our Fedora despite claims by Fedora of having a faster boot, its the question of deceptive language used, in their case, ext4 is claimed as default, explanations aside, why do we have to create a ext3 boot when other distro are managing ext4 total system, no ifs and buts. Even for someone installing from CD, OO is an important aspect, the only suite that can substitute for MS Office and guess what, after install, you realise there ain't any. Also the package manager bugs in Fedora are well listed on the net, many are facing the issue and the package manager itself could do with a bit more friendliness. The only saving grace is Autoten which simplifies the install of many essential and popular stuff thankfully. Fedora 11 has been shipped with quite a few rough edges and thats not just my experience but the experience of many others.

Now if you honestly wish Fedora to be a worthy contender and I am sure it will one day as there is tremendous potential in it, stop defending its issues, instead make them heard from a layman's perspective as well as a first time user's angle. Thats the only way we can spread desktop linux. I managed to install Fedora 11 and worked out all the glitches, would I recommend to a first time Linux user, now way in hell. Would I make it my distro of choice, certainly if they can work out their issues. As of now, after running it side by side a Jaunty PC of same hardware config, I can say that neither is it quicker nor better in any sense. It does have tools and basic design that will show its potential to developers etc. but then so can Ubuntu with the right tools installed. Kernel 2.6.30 is out for Ubuntu as well and those willing to experience the so called advantages over the older 2.6.28 kernel can install it and experience if the kernel upgrade yields them any benefits.

[muep]

The errors I faced are not due to my fault or the fault of others trying to install Fedora, its basic implementation of Fedora thats at fault. Many are facing crashes with Anaconda and that include Fedora veterans as I have mentioned earlier.




Why would I be forced into installing older nvidia drivers from rpm fusion when I can install brand new ones from nvidia itself, I have been doing that since my SuSE 8 days and continue to do so till today?

RPM Fusion usually ships the latest drivers that are available.



If all procedures are followed, it should install period. Obviously some things need to be weeded out.

You seem to be under the impression that Fedora supports proprietary drivers installed with a random broken installer. It does not. It actually doesn't support the official Nvidia drivers at all. Some friendly people have still made well compatible packages at RPM Fusion, but you refuse to use them, and then even blame Fedora when the Nvidia installer breaks for you.



As for Opera, its not in Ubuntu repos either but it installs without hitch and gdebi pulls in the requisite packages.

The package Opera offers for Fedora is different from the one it gives for Ubuntu. If you could install it to Fedora without any tool complaining, the package is broken. Tell Opera to fix their package. Fedora can't and doesn't support incorrectly made third party packages.



Are you aware on what to do to make Opera work. You need to do a yum install qt3* on Fedora Gnome. Do you honestly expect a first time Fedora user to have the divine vision to do that?

I wouldn't expect a new user be able to solve issues with broken packages. The fact that Opera happens to do broken rpms has nothing to do with Fedora.



How about someone coming over from Windows world. There is no mention of this on various Fedora guides either. I don't thing you have even touched this aspect and therefore have no idea at all. So in a nutshell, Fedora developers are assuming that someone attempting to use their distro first time to have some sort of premonition.

If you install stuff from outside the distribution, you certainly need to know what you are doing. Fedora doesn't include Opera or Nvidia drivers, nor any other proprietary software.



I guess its their way of telling, don't you dare use any other browser apart from FF, kinda MS way ain't it.

Nope. But if you install stuff that Fedora can't fix and can't control and then it breaks, you get to keep both the pieces.



As for ext4 issue, its not about boot time which Ubuntu Jaunty beats our Fedora despite claims by Fedora of having a faster boot, its the question of deceptive language used, in their case, ext4 is claimed as default, explanations aside, why do we have to create a ext3 boot when other distro are managing ext4 total system, no ifs and buts.

Ext4 is the default. No exceptions. Every time you install Fedora 11 with automatic partitioning, you get ext4 for every place where it can be used, and where using it matters. Only a small fraction of the system (well under 50 MB) is stored on ext3, on a partition that only contains a little data and few files. Ext3 suits that kind of use fine.



Even for someone installing from CD, OO is an important aspect, the only suite that can substitute for MS Office and guess what, after install, you realise there ain't any.

Even for someone installing from CD, being able to use the computer with one's own language is an important aspect. After install, you realise there ain't localization for your language.



Also the package manager bugs in Fedora are well listed on the net, many are facing the issue and the package manager itself could do with a bit more friendliness. The only saving grace is Autoten which simplifies the install of many essential and popular stuff thankfully. Fedora 11 has been shipped with quite a few rough edges and thats not just my experience but the experience of many others.

Now if you honestly wish Fedora to be a worthy contender and I am sure it will one day as there is tremendous potential in it, stop defending its issues, instead make them heard from a layman's perspective as well as a first time user's angle. Thats the only way we can spread desktop linux. I managed to install Fedora 11 and worked out all the glitches, would I recommend to a first time Linux user, now way in hell. Would I make it my distro of choice, certainly if they can work out their issues. As of now, after running it side by side a Jaunty PC of same hardware config, I can say that neither is it quicker nor better in any sense. It does have tools and basic design that will show its potential to developers etc. but then so can Ubuntu with the right tools installed. Kernel 2.6.30 is out for Ubuntu as well and those willing to experience the so called advantages over the older 2.6.28 kernel can install it and experience if the kernel upgrade yields them any benefits.



After reading your posts, it really seems that you just aren't in Fedora's primary target audience. Fedora only supports what is included in the official repos, while you want to install proprietary software that Fedora has no control over. You also insist that broken third party packages should work, which certainly isn't worked on at all in Fedora.

You might want to read Fedora's objectives (http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Objectives) page to understand this better.

Fedora doesn't make installing non-free software intentionally hard. However, it's not productive in the long run to add clumsy hacks to the system to support it, so they don't do that, either. If you want an operating system which is developed with Opera or Nvidia's proprietary graphics driver in mind, you are probably better off using something else than Fedora. Fortunately, there are dozens of options for those users.

[Sand & Mercury]

I downloaded the live CD and gave it a try today. Plymouth is pretty. But it failed to get any further than that. Bad luck Fedora.

[gnomeuser]

The errors I faced are not due to my fault or the fault of others trying to install Fedora, its basic implementation of Fedora thats at fault. Many are facing crashes with Anaconda and that include Fedora veterans as I have mentioned earlier.

Why would I be forced into installing older nvidia drivers from rpm fusion when I can install brand new ones from nvidia itself, I have been doing that since my SuSE 8 days and continue to do so till today? If all procedures are followed, it should install period. Obviously some things need to be weeded out. As for Opera, its not in Ubuntu repos either but it installs without hitch and gdebi pulls in the requisite packages. Are you aware on what to do to make Opera work. You need to do a yum install qt3* on Fedora Gnome. Do you honestly expect a first time Fedora user to have the divine vision to do that? How about someone coming over from Windows world. There is no mention of this on various Fedora guides either. I don't thing you have even touched this aspect and therefore have no idea at all. So in a nutshell, Fedora developers are assuming that someone attempting to use their distro first time to have some sort of premonition. I guess its their way of telling, don't you dare use any other browser apart from FF, kinda MS way ain't it. As for ext4 issue, its not about boot time which Ubuntu Jaunty beats our Fedora despite claims by Fedora of having a faster boot, its the question of deceptive language used, in their case, ext4 is claimed as default, explanations aside, why do we have to create a ext3 boot when other distro are managing ext4 total system, no ifs and buts. Even for someone installing from CD, OO is an important aspect, the only suite that can substitute for MS Office and guess what, after install, you realise there ain't any. Also the package manager bugs in Fedora are well listed on the net, many are facing the issue and the package manager itself could do with a bit more friendliness. The only saving grace is Autoten which simplifies the install of many essential and popular stuff thankfully. Fedora 11 has been shipped with quite a few rough edges and thats not just my experience but the experience of many others.

Now if you honestly wish Fedora to be a worthy contender and I am sure it will one day as there is tremendous potential in it, stop defending its issues, instead make them heard from a layman's perspective as well as a first time user's angle. Thats the only way we can spread desktop linux. I managed to install Fedora 11 and worked out all the glitches, would I recommend to a first time Linux user, now way in hell. Would I make it my distro of choice, certainly if they can work out their issues. As of now, after running it side by side a Jaunty PC of same hardware config, I can say that neither is it quicker nor better in any sense. It does have tools and basic design that will show its potential to developers etc. but then so can Ubuntu with the right tools installed. Kernel 2.6.30 is out for Ubuntu as well and those willing to experience the so called advantages over the older 2.6.28 kernel can install it and experience if the kernel upgrade yields them any benefits.

If you install software around the package manager, untrusted from somewhere that isn't the Fedora repos you are on your own. Except when using RPMfusion.

That is issue one, you installed opera and forced the install. If the Opera people can't make a correct rpm file that is their problem not Fedoras I would though happily give them instructions. You cannot blame Fedora for this, full stop.

Secondly, rpmfusion nearly always has the latest driver, if not it is coming and the current driver they offer is well tested. However due to caution considering the recent driver update that bricked peoples machines, updates are stuck in updates-testing for a bit. I think this is the safe and recommendable approach for such updates compared to just throwing them out onto peoples machines. Again, if you install software around yum, you should expect it to fail miserably and bork up your machine. That is not the Fedora developers fault.

We aim to make Fedora contender, it already is, however we aim to make it one based on free software which is why Red Hat funds driver development so we will never have to suffer these proprietary drivers again. What is never going to happen will be supporting situations where users blindly download binaries and we are just magically suppose to make it work in all cases or accept blame. You are not going to find a distribution that will accept those terms you set.

I will grant you that having to rely on a /boot on non ext4 is a poor option, which is why I submitted a patch (the same one Ubuntu uses) months ago. You can go back in this thread and read the whole miserable bugreport. My objection is not to the technical limitation but you bringing it up... again when it has been explained and acknowledged. I fully plan to make Eric aware of this thread so he can see the real world impact of his decision to not patch our grub.

[Kingsley]

As for Opera, its not in Ubuntu repos either but it installs without hitch and gdebi pulls in the requisite packages. Are you aware on what to do to make Opera work. You need to do a yum install qt3* on Fedora Gnome. Do you honestly expect a first time Fedora user to have the divine vision to do that?

You didn't have to install every single qt3 package. This small command would've gotten you exactly what you needed automatically.


su -c 'yum localinstall path_to_opera.rpm --nogpgcheck'

[danbuter]

I gave Fedora a shot for a few days. Their update/package manager is still 3x slower than deb files, so I gave up.

[mamamia88]

i tried to install it but it kept giving me errors saying i couldn't make ext4 bootable when partitioning

[Therion]

I think F11 is an outstandingly well-done distro. It took me a day or three to get comfortable with it but that was nothing major. F11 proved fast and stable on my system and is/was just as intuitive to me as Ubuntu. Fedora has pretty much everything I could ask for in a distro. Now, having said all that AND having used Fedora 11 exclusively for the past several days, I came here to say that I am now back to using Ubuntu as my sole OS.

Why? Too be honest I can't say why I like Ubuntu better, I just do. I could, actually, use a lot of very subjective adjectives to attempt an explanation but they're SO subjective that it would be silly to even bother rattling them off. It's obvious to me that the Team Fedora has done an outstanding job and that F11 will do nothing but promote the Linux movement in all the best ways possible. While Fedora is not my personal cup of tea, I can still appreciate it for what it is: one hellaciously good release.

Bravo, Team Fedora.

[adrianx]

I gave Fedora a shot for a few days. Their update/package manager is still 3x slower than deb files, so I gave up.
Sometimes, I'm glad that I have a 384Kbps (only) ADSL connection. I don't notice the slowness that people talk about, so much. Synaptic is nice, I won't argue, but I don't notice a huge (x3) difference.

It's the same with Firefox. I find that IE8 is slow (it renders pictures a bit more quickly), Opera is slow, FF is slow.... everything is slow.

Maybe some day, when I upgrade to 4Mbps, I'll know what all the fuss is about. :D

[Closed_Port]

Why would I be forced into installing older nvidia drivers from rpm fusion when I can install brand new ones from nvidia itself, I have been doing that since my SuSE 8 days and continue to do so till today?

Maybe because the ones in rpmfusion are test, are known to work, are easy to install and are guaranteed to work contrary to using the driver from nvidia directly?



As for Opera, its not in Ubuntu repos either but it installs without hitch and gdebi pulls in the requisite packages. Are you aware on what to do to make Opera work. You need to do a yum install qt3* on Fedora Gnome. Do you honestly expect a first time Fedora user to have the divine vision to do that?

Look, this really makes me angry. I'm in no way a Fedora expert, but I know for sure that what you are saying is simply not true. If you had used either yum or yum through packagekit, dependencies would have automatically been pulled in. Just like with gdebi.

However, as this didn't happen, there are only two possible explanations: 1. The package is broken and doesn't have the needed dependencies listet, which would be Opera's fault.
2. The package would work but you somehow refused to use the default option available to you and forced the package to install with rpm. This would be the equivalent to installing something with dpkg -i --force-all and then complaining that the dependencies weren't pulled in.
So, which one was it?

[Simian Man]

I gave Fedora a shot for a few days. Their update/package manager is still 3x slower than deb files, so I gave up.

Actually with the presto plugin, it can be *significantly* faster than apt. Even if it is a bit slower, I'll take the usability improvements.

[Arup]

Maybe because the ones in rpmfusion are test, are known to work, are easy to install and are guaranteed to work contrary to using the driver from nvidia directly?


Look, this really makes me angry. I'm in no way a Fedora expert, but I know for sure that what you are saying is simply not true. If you had used either yum or yum through packagekit, dependencies would have automatically been pulled in. Just like with gdebi.

However, as this didn't happen, there are only two possible explanations: 1. The package is broken and doesn't have the needed dependencies listet, which would be Opera's fault.
2. The package would work but you somehow refused to use the default option available to you and forced the package to install with rpm. This would be the equivalent to installing something with dpkg -i --force-all and then complaining that the dependencies weren't pulled in.
So, which one was it?


LOL! Opera installs without a hitch on Debian and Ubuntu, also the rpm installs minus any issues on SuSE, in case of Fedora, its a well documented bug, check the forums. Seriously would Opera devs release a broken package to the public? That would mean the end of their browser. This is truly annoying, fanboying to an extent to deny issues and put down those who have faced genuine ones won't really help the cause of Fedora. If something don't work, it ain't Fedora's fault, its the software. You absolutely have no idea whats going on, have you tried installing Opera btw? No dependencies are pulled during install either via package manager or via Uvh or yum.

About nvidia drivers its really strange that the same driver installed on Fedora 10 without any issues when instructions are followed. Same with Ubuntu, Debian or SuSE or for that matter PCLOS. So what you are essentially telling me is that in a very MS manner, a distro claiming to be cutting edge would limit me to using older nvidia drivers from the repository instead of using the latest from nvidia. What if I have an issue and I need latest driver to resolve it or for that matter use some newer features introduced in the drivers, the 185.18.14 bought in couple of enhancements like better vdpau scaling etc. I guess using Fedora 11 puts me out of that choice for good.

Someone else here made a sweeping remark on nvidia drivers. Let me tell you, nvidia is the only hope for Linux's desktop survival. They have been far more responsible than ATI in coming out with quality linux drivers and with features like VDPAU and others, they make it easy for people transitioning from MS to use Linux desktop. No one today is interested in being stuck in 2d world. Things like Compiz has shown that linux desktop can go toe to toe with Win and Mac desktop and the only way thats happening is quality drivers from video card manufacturers. So far only nvidia has taken this step.

[Wiebelhaus]

I'm using it dual booting with Ubuntu at work and I tell you it will never change , the fact that I freaking hate YUM and the grub installer still sucks , two things I just can't accept , I'll be removing it after returning to work.

[Arup]

I'm using it dual booting with Ubuntu at work and I tell you it will never change , the fact that I freaking hate YUM and the grub installer still sucks , two things I just can't accept , I'll be removing it after returning to work.

:D You and I are at fault, its not the the distro's fault here, its impeccable. The newer rpm installer has been disappointing so far.

[Simian Man]

I'm using it dual booting with Ubuntu at work and I tell you it will never change , the fact that I freaking hate YUM and the grub installer still sucks , two things I just can't accept , I'll be removing it after returning to work.

I'm curious, what specifically do you have against yum?

[Dragonbite]

Ok, I've found a few issues so far.
KMail crashes every so often. Last time was when I was trying to move some emails to a different folder (IMAP connection). Froze the whole thing and then closed with no warnings.
Amarok doesn't make any noises. While the MP3 playback may be due to missing libraries/codecs and/or incorrect settings it should also be able to play a Shoutcast radio station, which it doesn't.
Flash is setting a whole bunch of blocks across the screen. After a while it may calm down but otherwise it is blotchy and hard to navigate the applications

[muep]

LOL! Opera installs without a hitch on Debian and Ubuntu, also the rpm installs minus any issues on SuSE, in case of Fedora, its a well documented bug, check the forums. Seriously would Opera devs release a broken package to the public? That would mean the end of their browser.

You tell me.



[muep@linux-mtnc TBO]$ rpm -qp opera-9.64.gcc4-shared-qt3.x86_64.rpm --requires
/bin/sh
/bin/sh
/bin/sh
rpmlib(PayloadFilesHavePrefix) <= 4.0-1
rpmlib(CompressedFileNames) <= 3.0.4-1
/bin/sh
[muep@linux-mtnc TBO]$

Yeah, how is Fedora's package management system supposed know that the package requires Qt, when Opera provides a package that doesn't provide the information?

The package probably works in openSUSE because they happen to include the Qt libraries as default.



This is truly annoying, fanboying to an extent to deny issues and put down those who have faced genuine ones won't really help the cause of Fedora. If something don't work, it ain't Fedora's fault, its the software. You absolutely have no idea whats going on, have you tried installing Opera btw? No dependencies are pulled during install either via package manager or via Uvh or yum.

It still just seems that you think Fedora even tries to or is otherwise supposeed to make broken third party rpms and other broken installers to work. It doesn't.



About nvidia drivers its really strange that the same driver installed on Fedora 10 without any issues when instructions are followed. Same with Ubuntu, Debian or SuSE or for that matter PCLOS. So what you are essentially telling me is that in a very MS manner, a distro claiming to be cutting edge would limit me to using older nvidia drivers from the repository instead of using the latest from nvidia. What if I have an issue and I need latest driver to resolve it or for that matter use some newer features introduced in the drivers, the 185.18.14 bought in couple of enhancements like better vdpau scaling etc. I guess using Fedora 11 puts me out of that choice for good.

Fedora is not intentionally preventing from installing with Nvidia's broken installer, but they don't try to make it work on Fedora, either. Use a working package or sort the mess out yourself.



Someone else here made a sweeping remark on nvidia drivers. Let me tell you, nvidia is the only hope for Linux's desktop survival. They have been far more responsible than ATI in coming out with quality linux drivers and with features like VDPAU and others, they make it easy for people transitioning from MS to use Linux desktop. No one today is interested in being stuck in 2d world. Things like Compiz has shown that linux desktop can go toe to toe with Win and Mac desktop and the only way thats happening is quality drivers from video card manufacturers. So far only nvidia has taken this step.



AMD has released specifications to help free driver development on all their latest cards. I rather buy them than Nvidia, who lock you into using their non-free driver. I could just as well use Windows, if I wanted that.

[rookcifer]

Someone else here made a sweeping remark on nvidia drivers. Let me tell you, nvidia is the only hope for Linux's desktop survival. They have been far more responsible than ATI in coming out with quality linux drivers and with features like VDPAU and others, they make it easy for people transitioning from MS to use Linux desktop. No one today is interested in being stuck in 2d world. Things like Compiz has shown that linux desktop can go toe to toe with Win and Mac desktop and the only way thats happening is quality drivers from video card manufacturers. So far only nvidia has taken this step.

ATI is making strides and will one day surpass nvidia in Linux driver quality. Why? Because ATI has open-sourced (http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3108) their drivers and allowed the community at large to contribute.

For the time being, I think nvidia is more hassle-free, but it wont last.

[Arup]

You tell me.



[muep@linux-mtnc TBO]$ rpm -qp opera-9.64.gcc4-shared-qt3.x86_64.rpm --requires
/bin/sh
/bin/sh
/bin/sh
rpmlib(PayloadFilesHavePrefix) <= 4.0-1
rpmlib(CompressedFileNames) <= 3.0.4-1
/bin/sh
[muep@linux-mtnc TBO]$

Yeah, how is Fedora's package management system supposed know that the package requires Qt, when Opera provides a package that doesn't provide the information?

The package probably works in openSUSE because they happen to include the Qt libraries as default.


It still just seems that you think Fedora even tries to or is otherwise supposeed to make broken third party rpms and other broken installers to work. It doesn't.


Fedora is not intentionally preventing from installing with Nvidia's broken installer, but they don't try to make it work on Fedora, either. Use a working package or sort the mess out yourself.



AMD has released specifications to help free driver development on all their latest cards. I rather buy them than Nvidia, who lock you into using their non-free driver. I could just as well use Windows, if I wanted that.


Ask Fedora devs, how does gdebi manage to pull qt files in Ubuntu and Debian or for that matter how does SuSE manage it with rpm?

Nvidia package works fine on other distros so I guess much exalted Fedora 11 is not at fault here.

ATI so far has made junk, nothing close to vdpau on slates. I had to retire my dual GPU ATI 4850 and settle for a cheap 8400GS which rescued my system thanks to nvidia. The 8400 outperforms the ATI on every count.

[ghindo]

AMD has released specifications to help free driver development on all their latest cards. I rather buy them than Nvidia, who lock you into using their non-free driver. I could just as well use Windows, if I wanted that.That's not what I've heard. ;)

[Closed_Port]

Ask Fedora devs, how does gdebi manage to pull qt files in Ubuntu and Debian or for that matter how does SuSE manage it with rpm?

Uhm, now you're really getting silly. The deb works as it lists qt as a dependency or is statically compiled with qt, the rpm you used obviously didn't list qt as a dependency. So the package was indeed broken.
If you install a package that doesn't list its dependencies with gdebi, guess what, the dependencies that are not listed don't get pulled in either.



Nvidia package works fine on other distros so I guess much exalted Fedora 11 is not at fault here.

Look, there are perfectly fine, working and easy to install packages for the nvidia-drivers. If you choose not to use them but instead rely on the unsupported drivers from nvidia directly, you might run into problems. And as anyone who has used Linux for a longer time knows, running into issues with nvidia drivers on newer distros isn't uncommon. That's what you should use the packages provided by the distro.

[dspari1]

I agree that Opera needs to fix their rpm since it's not listing all of their required dependencies. I hope that the Fedora team has enough contacts to get a hold of the Opera team since rpm is the Linux standard.

[Arup]

Uhm, now you're really getting silly. The deb works as it lists qt as a dependency or is statically compiled with qt, the rpm you used obviously didn't list qt as a dependency. So the package was indeed broken.
If you install a package that doesn't list its dependencies with gdebi, guess what, the dependencies that are not listed don't get pulled in either.


Look, there are perfectly fine, working and easy to install packages for the nvidia-drivers. If you choose not to use them but instead rely on the unsupported drivers from nvidia directly, you might run into problems. And as anyone who has used Linux for a longer time knows, running into issues with nvidia drivers on newer distros isn't uncommon. That's what you should use the packages provided by the distro.


I see so Opera devs after making their browser work for all other distros would make Fedora 11 a special case and make a crippled installer. This is the installer opera-9.64.gcc4-shared-qt3.x86_64.rpm Note that it mentions qt3 and the kpacakge installer indicates getting dependencies but it fails. Who is being silly by repeatedly defending a glitch. Do you really think Fedora 11 is some wonder invincible bug free distro of has fanboi attitude clouded up your thinking.

As for nvidia, video technology is ever evolving in Linux world and thereby needs to stay cutting edge. Newer drivers from manufacturers incorporate much needed improvements, stability and newer features. Sticking to older drivers from the repos can lead to stability issues, lack of features and many more. Take for instance the 180.44 drivers included in Ubuntu repos, this driver has well known regression with vdpau, also power mizer has issues as well. The only way to get better performance is via upgrade to latest driver. In case of Fedora,the glitches in the distro prevents install of newer drivers, plain and simple, no excuses needed, no need to blame nvidia or opera as they both install and work reliably on other distros. Stop defending Fedora for once and admit the issues.

GOSH I thought this is a Ubuntu forum, not fedora.org

[Closed_Port]

I see so Opera devs after making their browser work for all other distros would make Fedora 11 a special case and make a crippled installer. This is the installer opera-9.64.gcc4-shared-qt3.x86_64.rpm Note that it mentions qt3 and the kpacakge installer indicates getting dependencies but it fails.

What on earth? So kpackage told you it couldn't install the package and you installed it anyway and then complain about it being broken? Jesus...



Who is being silly by repeatedly defending a glitch. Do you really think Fedora 11 is some wonder invincible bug free distro of has fanboi attitude clouded up your thinking.

Look, you can indulge in ad hominem attacks all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that the package you tried to install is broken, you installed it anyway, then went on to complain about it being broken and made the false claim that Fedora's package management doesn't automatically install dependencies.
As for me being a fanboy and Fedora being bug free: I don't even run Fedora at the moment and nobody claimed it was bug free, all people told you again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again was that you are wrong about the problem you describe with opera being a Fedora problem and showing that Fedora package management is inferior.



In case of Fedora,the glitches in the distro prevents install of newer drivers, plain and simple, no excuses needed, no need to blame nvidia or opera as they both install and work reliably on other distros. Stop defending Fedora for once and admit the issues.

Has it ever occurred to you that rpmfusion might not ship the newest drivers as there are known problems with the newest drivers and Fedora? Has it ever occurred to you that they will update to the newest drivers once they have sorted out the issues? Has it ever occurred to you that both the linux kernel devs and fedora devs have made it clear that they are unable to support the nvidia driver as it is closed source and that it's nvidia's responsibility to make sure it works?



GOSH I thought this is a Ubuntu forum, not fedora.org
And I thought it was a forum for people interested in linux, not some "I don't have the slightest clue, but I'll bash other distros regardless" kind of outlet.

[Arup]

Now you are making up words, read what I said, Kpackage indicated that it was fetching necessary libs for Opera and after that, opera wouldn't work. Damn.....fanboy blindness at its very best.

Where did I make false claim? Why does Fedora complain about broken package in first place? As per Fedora, it informs that the package is installed but it doesn't function unless you manually do a yum install at3* I guess Opera should now start making 80+mb browser package with qt files included, how totally ridiculous. The attacks came from your side when you called me being silly. Once for all, start acknowledging the fact that Fedora 11 has quite a few issues and stop being blind. I doubt your claim that you don't use Fedora, thats highly doubtable as you sound worse that the so called fanbois on Fedora forum. As another user in this thread indicated, what good is a so called superior pakacge management when it falters badly in real world situation. Why are you so biased as not to admit that unless users can install programs of their choice with ease, it doesn't work. I isntall Ubuntu, I install SuSE, I go to Opera site, download .deb or .rpm and click and install, that simple.

About nvidia drivers, so in case I buy a spanking new nvidia GTX series and find out that the repo drivers suck and don't give me the FPS needed, what do I do? I wait patiently for the rpm fusion guys to bring the driver to their repos and meanwhile nvidia goes through couple of more revisions and those using the other distros install those drivers and have a ball and meanwhile I am stuck waiting for rpmfusion to release an update. Pray tell me the stipulated time period for a driver to make it to the repos? I am sure by that time a new release would be right around the corner. Whats the point? I guess nvidia is to be blamed for all but the distro is the saint here.

About the forum, its a Ubuntu Linux forum first, we are free to discuss the various points of other distros but in the end we are all here because we love and use Ubuntu and consider it to be a better choice and a superior alternative to other distros. In this case no matter what crummy excuses get put up, Ubuntu is miles ahead of distros like Fedora and maybe the developers should learn some lessons from Ubuntu devs. The ultimate goal of anyone who cares about Linux is to ease existing Windows users into Linux desktop in a gradual manner, in that sense I repeat at the cost of sounding redudant, Ubuntu, PCLOS, SuSE, MINT all have done credible work. The concept of It Just Works is whats important rather than making tall cutting edge claims that just don't work.

[Closed_Port]

Now you are making up words, read what I said, Kpackage indicated that it was fetching necessary libs for Opera and after that, opera wouldn't work. Damn.....fanboy blindness at its very best.

Ah, so it automatically installs the dependencies listed by the package, doesn't it? And obviously one crucial dependency wasn't listed -> the package was broken.



Where did I make false claim? Why does Fedora complain about broken package in first place? As per Fedora, it informs that the package is installed but it doesn't function unless you manually do a yum install at3* I guess Opera should now start making 80+mb browser package with qt files included, how totally ridiculous.

For the 256th time: They simply need to list all dependencies. They obviously didn't. And most of the opera builds you get are statically linked, that is, they ship with qt included. And no, this doesn't add 80mb.



Once for all, start acknowledging the fact that Fedora 11 has quite a few issues and stop being blind. I doubt your claim that you don't use Fedora, thats highly doubtable as you sound worse that the so called fanbois on Fedora forum.

Come on: You really want to accuse me of lying? Because I dared to point out that no package manager will automatically install a dependency that isn't listed in the package as a dependency?
And how is pointing that out the same as stating that fedora doesn't have issues? I mean, just look at this from the fedora project: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Common_F11_bugs



Why are you so biased as not to admit that unless users can install programs of their choice with ease, it doesn't work.

Could you please point out where I suggested this?



I isntall Ubuntu, I install SuSE, I go to Opera site, download .deb or .rpm and click and install, that simple.

And it's as simple in Fedora, if the package from Opera weren't broken. What I tried to point out again and again was that all these package managers, be they gdebi, be they yum, be they packagekit with yum, essentially do the same thing: They check which dependencies are listed, install these dependencies and then install the package. If a dependency is not listed, they will fail to install it and the package will not work. So a package has to list all its dependencies or it is broken, as seems to be the case with the opera package you used.



Pray tell me the stipulated time period for a driver to make it to the repos? I am sure by that time a new release would be right around the corner. Whats the point? I guess nvidia is to be blamed for all but the distro is the saint here.

So, let me get this straight: If there is a problem with the newest nvidia drivers and a new fedora release and the rpmfusion guys are working on fixing this problem, this somehow reflects badly on Fedora?




In this case no matter what crummy excuses get put up, Ubuntu is miles ahead of distros like Fedora and maybe the developers should learn some lessons from Ubuntu devs.

And you are the one accusing others of being fanboys?

[Johnsie]

Are the repos up to date? That's the main thing I look for when looking at distros. IMO opinion the versions of software in the Ubuntu repos are often outdated by a few months.

I want a distro where the applications are updated as soon as the app developers release their new version. With Windows alot of programs have auto-update facilities which make it easy for me to have the latest version, but on Ubuntu I have to wait for the MOTU people (middlemen) to update the repositories.

[Arup]

How many times do I have to repeat that its Fedora's package manager thats busted and not Opera, the same rpm installs fine on Fedora 10. Why do you keep repeating the same defense like a stuck groove.

If there is an issue with nvidia drivers, they fix far faster than the rpm fusion guys, why would I have to limit myself to the repositories. I should have the option of installing the drivers of my choice as I do on other distros, why should install in Fedora 11 be any different? It is something special, again blatant fanboi defense at the point of sickening redundancy.

As for Ubuntu, yes I am a fanboy and last time I checked, this is a Ubuntu forum so any thing Debian including Sid goes, last time I checked, I also praised no Debian distros like PCLOS and SuSE for their virtues, for extolling the virtues of the greatest, latest cutting edge Fedora there is http://fedoraforum.org/

[Closed_Port]

How many times do I have to repeat that its Fedora's package manager thats busted and not Opera, the same rpm installs fine on Fedora 10. Why do you keep repeating the same defense like a stuck groove.

Look, it's pretty simple: Qt3 is a dependency, as someone already posted, it's not listed by the package as a dependency, hence the package is broken.
You can ramble on and on, but it won't change the basic facts.



If there is an issue with nvidia drivers, they fix far faster than the rpm fusion guys, why would I have to limit myself to the repositories.

You don't have to. But if you don't rely on the service the distro provides, you are on your own.



I should have the option of installing the drivers of my choice as I do on other distros, why should install in Fedora 11 be any different?

It isn't any different. You do have the option to install the driver of your choice, you just don't have any guarantee that it will work.



for extolling the virtues of the greatest, latest cutting edge Fedora there is http://fedoraforum.org/
And here I was thinking fedoraforum was a support forum. Silly me...

[Johnsie]

On windows it would just work ;-)

[Arup]

Look, it's pretty simple: Qt3 is a dependency, as someone already posted, it's not listed by the package as a dependency, hence the package is broken.
You can ramble on and on, but it won't change the basic facts.


You don't have to. But if you don't rely on the service the distro provides, you are on your own.


It isn't any different. You do have the option to install the driver of your choice, you just don't have any guarantee that it will work.


And here I was thinking fedoraforum was a support forum. Silly me...


I know its a dependency, why doesn't the package manager indicate so. Running Opera in terminal indicated lib-mt.qt missing which I installed separately, nothing happens, Opera wouldn't fire up, only when qt 3 was installed did it work. So its all Opera's fault here and not Fedora's and evil Opera made a broken package specifically for poor poor Fedora to make it look bad.

For video card, waiting for distro service would mean that you deprive yourself all the new features, after all, video is the key component and driving force of any OS, no matter what.

Just as I was thinking this is a Ubuntu forum, not a Fedora is best chant forum, how foolish of me.

[Cenotaph]

On windows it would just work ;-)

So true... Man, i love linux, but all these options (Desktop Environments, Toolkits, etc) while a strong point of linux for some, it is a extremely weak point for linux's mass adoption...

[Arup]

On windows it would just work ;-)

Sometimes it don't, Windows had hell of a time with crappy buggy creative drivers, also Nvidia has made some real crud from time to time but yes in general Windows works, bear in mind, when it comes to supporting hardware, some items like ZC0301 chip cams, old Yamaha cards, Turble Beach cards and many more hardware don't work on Windows world, specially x32 Windwos world. In terms of hardware support for x32, Linux is quite good and actually better than Windows. Also It Just Works is coming quite close to Ubuntu as well as other distros like Fedora as well even though the hurdles for developing drivers for closed source products is an uphill task.

[Johnsie]

I agree that Linux comes with more drivers on the cd by default, but Windows has more 3rd party drivers available. The fact that it is relatively simple to install a driver on Windows off a cd, the internet or a flash disk is pretty good too. Yeah, the hardware manufacturers should've released the driver source code, but most end users aren't interesting in the technical side of things. They want things to work and to be simple. Linux is getting there with the hardware, but sometimes it can be really frustrating.

With regard to opera and software, many windows programs have their own auto-update utility. That makes it easier for users to have the latest version as soon as it released. With Linux you have to wait on a middle man to update a repository and that doesn't always happen in a timely manner. I like Linux, but I find some things about it frustrating.

[Closed_Port]

I know its a dependency, why doesn't the package manager indicate so.

The package manager relies on the package to tell it the dependencies. As has been shown, for some reason, the opera package doesn't list qt3 as a dependency.



So its all Opera's fault here and not Fedora's and evil Opera made a broken package specifically for poor poor Fedora to make it look bad.

Could you please stop attacking things nobody has said. Nobody claimed Opera was evil or something similar. All that was pointed out was that the package you tried to install from opera doesn't list a dependency.



For video card, waiting for distro service would mean that you deprive yourself all the new features, after all, video is the key component and driving force of any OS, no matter what.

It is? That is news to me.
Anyway, as I already said, you are free to use whatever you want on Fedora, however, there is no reason to then expect it to work.



Just as I was thinking this is a Ubuntu forum, not a Fedora is best chant forum, how foolish of me.
Ok, you know attacked me repeatedly as a fanboy, you accused me of lying, you have repeatedly claimed that I was acting as if there were no problems with Fedora, though I simply pointed out that a dependency for a 3rd party package you tried to install was not installed because the 3rd party package didn't list the dependency and despite the fact that I linked to the known problems list of the fedora project. Don't you think that this is getting a bit out of hand?

[Johnsie]

Closed port. I'm not sure your conversation is going somewhere. I suggest you guys just agree to disagree and move on. None of us really care who is right and who is wrong.

[Closed_Port]

Closed port. I'm not sure your conversation is going somewhere.

Oh, I'm convinced now that it isn't.



I suggest you guys just agree to disagree and move on.

Nope. He's spreading falsehoods and FUD and that should not go unanswered.



None of us really care who is right and who is wrong.
How many people have you been in contact with or is this a pluralis maiestatis?

Anyway, I agree that there is no sense in carrying on this conversation.

However, I do find it slightly disturbing that just ask me to stop, not both of us involved.

[Dragonbite]

How many people have you been in contact with or is this a pluralis maiestatis?

Well add one more, so it is plural. :) Don't take it personally, I think your name got picked out of the hat because you were the last one to post.

Plus, all this is just **** in the wind unless somebody contacts the Fedora Devs or issue a bug report so they know of this issue.

(if this was already mentioned I apologize.. I have been skimming over this dribble).

Has anybody tried the Gnome and KDE version? I wonder if the Gnome version is better off than the KDE version or not. I am thinking of replacing the KDE version with the Gnome version and try that one out.

I'm coming to realize I am more familiar with Gnome than KDE and I think I'll need to use Kubuntu for a while so it's only the KDE part I have to get used to, not the DE and the distro!

[Simian Man]

OK now that I'm back in the office on my F11 machine, I could finally test Arup's claim about Opera. I went to Opera's website to the download page (http://www.opera.com/browser/download/). I then selected Fedora, then "Fedora Core - Other version" because they haven't made an rpm specifically for F11 yet. I then hit download and chose to open the rpm file with the Package Installer. It checked dependencies and installed without a hitch. I could then fully browse the web with Opera and it took about a minute.

So what you are saying is either FUD, or you did something silly like download the wrong version or use rpm directly without checking deps. Which is it? Are you happy that you totally derailed this thread or what?

[Closed_Port]

Plus, all this is just **** in the wind unless somebody contacts the Fedora Devs or issue a bug report so they know of this issue.

Jesus, it's not a Fedora issue. That's the whole point.



Has anybody tried the Gnome and KDE version? I wonder if the Gnome version is better off than the KDE version or not. I am thinking of replacing the KDE version with the Gnome version and try that one out.

I'd go for Gnome as Red Hat/Fedora have always been more Gnome centric.

[Dragonbite]

I'd go for Gnome as Red Hat/Fedora have always been more Gnome centric.
Yeah, I kinda figured that, just like how Ubuntu is, but I still went ahead and tried the KDE version.

[longtom]

So what you are saying is either FUD, or you did something silly like download the wrong version or use rpm directly without checking deps. Which is it? Are you happy that you totally derailed this thread or what?

So it appears. I really would have liked tohear more about Fedora 11, but I understand if nobody wants to participate in ths useless mudslinging exercise.

The mods must have missed this one....

[Glenn Jones]

Hey,

I'm attempted to test Fedora 11 on my 13" intel macbook but everytime I try I get a kernel panick. I'm testing Fedora using Sun's VirtualBox software. Has anyone else experienced this
problem whilst using VirtualBox?

Cheers

[Arup]

OK now that I'm back in the office on my F11 machine, I could finally test Arup's claim about Opera. I went to Opera's website to the download page (http://www.opera.com/browser/download/). I then selected Fedora, then "Fedora Core - Other version" because they haven't made an rpm specifically for F11 yet. I then hit download and chose to open the rpm file with the Package Installer. It checked dependencies and installed without a hitch. I could then fully browse the web with Opera and it took about a minute.

So what you are saying is either FUD, or you did something silly like download the wrong version or use rpm directly without checking deps. Which is it? Are you happy that you totally derailed this thread or what?

I tried the Gnome version, haven't tried KDE yet and that could well be the reason for the qt3 libs not being pulled up. Nobody is spreading FUD here, it was my experience with Fedora 11. So in case I or others who have problems are spreading FUD? In other words don't dare criticize FEDORA.:D How do we know your claims are correct and you are not just making this up to defend Fedora?

[Arup]

Oh, I'm convinced now that it isn't.


Nope. He's spreading falsehoods and FUD and that should not go unanswered.





And I assume you are spreading the absolute word on Fedora? Absolute nonsense to come and spread this on a Ubuntu forum anyways. My experience with Fedora past and present have been bumpy although I must admit that 10 was a better release in proper direction. I am of course a Ubuntu user but also delve in other distros like SuSe, PCLOS etc. Granted as a Ubuntu user, there is an amount of bias but in the end, I want Linux to spread and therefore when I recommend a Linux distro to a potential new user, I have to make sure that the process is as painless as ever or easy to diagnose. In that aspect Fedora fails although it still remains the most cutting edge distro with plenty of potential.

[Simian Man]

I tried the Gnome version, haven't tried KDE yet and that could well be the reason for the qt3 libs not being pulled up.
I am on the Gnome version as well and don't have any other QT applications installed. I feel fairly certain you did something wrong and are now trying to gloss over it as a flaw in Fedora. That or Opera fixed their packages over the weekend :).


Nobody is spreading FUD here, it was my experience with Fedora 11. So in case I or others who have problems are spreading FUD? In other words don't dare criticize FEDORA.:D
Other people have criticized Fedora in this thread. The reason you are singled out is because you did something stupid and misplaced your blame. Even if Opera didn't work *which it does*, the fault isn't yum. If yum didn't resolve dependencies correctly as you claim, the whole system would broken which it isn't.


How do we know your claims are correct and you are not just making this up to defend Fedora?
Because I, unlike you, laid out exactly what I did so that others could try to disprove or verify my claim.

And who cares if this is an Ubuntu Forum? That doesn't mean you can dole out ridiculous criticisms on another OS when the problems have nothing to do with it. Fedora should be interesting to most Ubuntu users as it is a roadmap of where Linux is going in the future - even if they choose to use Ubuntu instead.

[Simian Man]

Hey,

I'm attempted to test Fedora 11 on my 13" intel macbook but everytime I try I get a kernel panick. I'm testing Fedora using Sun's VirtualBox software. Has anyone else experienced this
problem whilst using VirtualBox?

Cheers

What version of VirtualBox are you using? Which iso file are you trying to boot from? Where do you get the kernel panic: booting live media, installing or booting the installed system?

I have run F11 under VirtualBox since the preview with no such errors. Though I couln't get the guest additions up right.

[Arup]

I am on the Gnome version as well and don't have any other QT applications installed. I feel fairly certain you did something wrong and are now trying to gloss over it as a flaw in Fedora. That or Opera fixed their packages over the weekend :).


Other people have criticized Fedora in this thread. The reason you are singled out is because you did something stupid and misplaced your blame. Even if Opera didn't work *which it does*, the fault isn't yum. If yum didn't resolve dependencies correctly as you claim, the whole system would broken which it isn't.


Because I, unlike you, laid out exactly what I did so that others could try to disprove or verify my claim.

And who cares if this is an Ubuntu Forum? That doesn't mean you can dole out ridiculous criticisms on another OS when the problems have nothing to do with it. Fedora should be interesting to most Ubuntu users as it is a roadmap of where Linux is going in the future - even if they choose to use Ubuntu instead.


I see so when Fedora goofs up, you are call me stupid IQboy, I did something wrong, I guess the other stupids also did something wrong. Tell me, I downloaded the x64 rpm as I listed in the previous post, first I tried the Kpackage way, it informed me about fetching libs, didn't work, I would see Opera icon listed on the applications>internet but it wouldn't fire up, running from terminal showed libqt3 not found message, installed the missing lib and still no go. Installed qt3* and it worked, I also tried to install via command line Uvh, same result so unless qt3 was installed, Opera wouldn't run. I describe my installation in details in the other post if you had cared to read so I am all in the clear and you ain't the only one who laid out exactly.

LOL! If Ubuntu heads the Fedora way, it would be kaput, thankfully it didnt' and now its the choice of many who come over from Windows and Mac world. Fedora should go the Ubuntu way in case it wishes to survive. One look at the distro watch counters tells you why Ubuntu manages to stay on top of the distro count and it ain't no black magic, its sheer usability out of the box, that should be the motto of desktop linux if its to go beyond its 1% share, not I have the latest cutting edge hype that dont' work for crap.

[JMisczak]

I really like Fedora 11, but Jaunty's notification system makes it hard for me to switch from Ubuntu to anything else. I'm not completely swayed by eye candy, but it is nice to have in class when you sit next to Macbook's with OS X.

[vincent668]

I'm going to download it and will make some testing once I installed.

[Dragonbite]

I see so when Fedora goofs up, you are call me stupid IQboy, I did something wrong, I guess the other stupids also did something wrong.

Have you tried doing it again (the download and installation), forcing it to try and overwrite anything that may have gone amiss?

[Arup]

Have you tried doing it again (the download and installation), forcing it to try and overwrite anything that may have gone amiss?

I went one step ahead of that, wiped out Fedora, installed it again and re-downloaded Opera just to make sure the issue was not at my end. By the way, Fedora doesn't come with a tool like GParted which can resize or create partitions either via live disk for system partition or from inside distro. Palimpiset is unable to see the unpartitioned portion of the drive which I left to create a separate partition later for storing data.

[Dragonbite]

I went one step ahead of that, wiped out Fedora, installed it again and re-downloaded Opera just to make sure the issue was not at my end. By the way, Fedora doesn't come with a tool like GParted which can resize or create partitions either via live disk for system partition or from inside distro. Palimpiset is unable to see the unpartitioned portion of the drive which I left to create a separate partition later for storing data.

What about fdisk? I know it's annoying to have to go to a command line but out of the top 3 (Ubuntu, Fedora and openSUSE), Fedora is the most reliant on the command line while Ubuntu and openSUSE allows you to largely void it.

[Arup]

What about fdisk? I know it's annoying to have to go to a command line but out of the top 3 (Ubuntu, Fedora and openSUSE), Fedora is the most reliant on the command line while Ubuntu and openSUSE allows you to largely void it.

Fdisk would be my last resort, you see I am trying to spread Linux to a non Linux audience, so far with Ubuntu, my results have been highly successful to a crowd idiotized with GUI and icons, any mention of command prompt would drive them back to M$ caves. I am sure fdisk would work.

[HappyFeet]

I find it hard to believe gparted is not in the fedora repos.

[GCFreak]

HappyFeet: That's because it is in the Fedora repositories.

Ok, I'm just going to set facts straight in one post.

1. If Opera doesn't list all the dependencies it requires, it's not a fault of the RPM package management system or yum. It's up to Opera to fix it, it's not in the Fedora yum repositories, it's not Fedora's problem.

2. The Fedora Project's goal was NEVER, EVER, to be the most popular Linux distribution, or to be the easiest to use either. Fedora is supposed to be a bleeding-edge Linux distribution showcasing the latest and greatest in free software, and where it may take us in the future. So stop acting like they are aiming to replace or replicate Ubuntu, because they aren't, and won't.

3. ATI's non-free video drivers do not support kernel 2.6.29, and the older versions which support the older ATI video cards won't be updated for the new X11, and that is why kmod-fglrx is not on RPMFusion for Fedora 11. The new kmod-catalyst with the latest non-free drivers and the last releases of kmod-fglrx are available for Fedora 10, though.
Arup: Can you actually explain the problem with video drivers in Fedora? There are no such "glitches" that prevent installation of newer video drivers, heck, you don't have to use the RPMFusion-provided drivers if you don't want to, just like in Ubuntu with the Restricted drivers. And right now, I can see a package called kmod-nvidia-185.18 sitting right now as of this post's date on the rpmfusion-nonfree-updates repository, and version 180.51 who need them.
Again, with non-free software, it's up to the software vendor to fix bugs and flaws with the software itself. Fedora and RPMFusion are not responsible for inherent flaws in the non-free software itself.

4. There's no need to call people biased because they're stating fact, I'm not the person to ask when it comes to impartial debates on which Linux distribution is best for a specific task, but I try my best with this stuff, and I seem to think that you're not really taking Fedora very seriously, and don't get the point of what they're trying to accomplish with it. They're not trying to make an easy operating system, but it still is very close to Ubuntu when it comes to ease of use, and that's not something you'd expect from something that's supposed to be bleeding edge. On setting up my Fedora 11 installation I never opened the terminal once.

Anyway that's my 2 cents worth. I don't really have much more to say apart from that.

[Arup]

I must be a stickler for punishment, I truly like Fedora's features and decided one more try, this time another problem, after upgrading to rpm fusion via command line, the list wouldn't update and would give out xml error message. Checked the Fedora forums and its a known issue and they are working on it. Fedora's package management has a long way to go no matter what Fedora fans say. That don't mean I wont give Fedora 12 a try when its out, I will be the first in line. Meanwhile back to my serene peaceful world of Ubuntu. ;)

[GCFreak]

I find the package management in RPM actually superior to Ubuntu, especially when it comes to installing local packages, I don't have to press a million buttons like I do in Ubuntu and I don't have to authenticate myself all the time to add/remove packages and install local packages. yum is MUCH better laid out than apt when using the command line as well, I was quite surprised how messy apt lays things out when I first tried it having been on tidy yum in Fedora. And I never get any problems with the package management in Ubuntu or Fedora... all this is just my opinion though, and people will have different views on this matter.