The Windows Tax

[moyam01]

Well, it's about that time for a new laptop. Looking at all the options, I think the XPS 1330 from dell is my best bet. I looked at the System76 stuff, but the one thing that put me off is that I can't have their 12 or 13" screen without the shiny top finish, which won't last a day where I work.

Anyway, Dell has the XPS 1330n which comes with Ubuntu, but you end up paying more for it, as in the Windows Version they upgraded the base processor.

Anyway, I contacted Dell sales, and they tell me that they cannot take off windows from their laptops that they sell. Of course, I point out to them that the Windows EULA states that I am able to receive a refund for the OS if I do not agree to the EULA, and they told me to take it up with Bill,and I explained to them that Bill has on the return policy says that for OEM equipment I should contact the OEM, and that was what I was doing. I was told that I automatically agree to the EULA when I purchase the computer, and the only way I can return the software is to return the computer.

Is there any way around this? I don't think it's fair for Microsoft to charge me for something that I am not going to use. I will call in person today to see what can be done, but if not, it sounds I like I won't be able to buy a computer without paying Microsoft too.

[Cowchip7]

Dell sells their computers in such bulk, your Windows tax would probably be a measly $10. Not worth your time an effort.

[Cowchip7]

If you want to waste your time and money to fight the good fight, I am sure the EULA has an arbitration clause. Again, not worth it. ](*,)

[aysiu]

I agree with Cowchip. You can fight it for the measly amount they'll refund you, but the energy and time you put into it will not be worth the $10 or $30 you get for the returned Windows license.

Better to suck it up and get the Windows license... or buy Ubuntu preinstalled. If cost is a concern, go for the Inspiron 15n. Last time I checked, the Ubuntu model was $200 cheaper than the Vista model for the same specs. It's not a 13" screen, but...

[lykwydchykyn]

You seem to be torn between principles and pragmatism. I guess the question is, which is more important to you? Is it about getting the refund, or making the statement? Is it more important to be officially counted among non-Windows users, or to get the exact piece of hardware you want?

[gashcr]

mmm, hard situation...

if you're not in a hurry, hp will have some nice new laptops on sale with suse 11 option, the HP ProBook

http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/newsroom/press_kits/2009/Mobility2009/index.html

I don't have data when will be availability for those, but perhaps you could contact HP to get more info about them.

[Bölvaður]

It might be better if you'd send an email to some of their staff that isn't too low ranked (just to get your mail noticed) claiming that their staff is breaking the windows eula. All you wanted to do was get rid of windows to install linux and not having to pay for the windows license in the fashion the windows eula forces it to be done.
Then just have a little line saying you are a little bit disappointed by the service you received but you wish them a good day and happy holiday when they get time to go out.

[LowSky]

or buy from a vendor that sells Ubuntu

http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=28

[0per4t0r]

If you want a Dell with Ubuntu preinstalled, go here:
http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

[Cowchip7]

http://www.zareason.com

[pwnst*r]

or buy from a vendor that sells Ubuntu

http://system76.com/index.php?cPath=28


I looked at the System76 stuff, but the one thing that put me off is that I can't have their 12 or 13" screen without the shiny top finish, which won't last a day where I work.

^^

[Cowchip7]

These might be matte finish:

http://www.linuxcertified.com/linux_laptops.html

[XubuRoxMySox]

You can but computers from TigerDirect.com (http://tigerdirect.com) with no OS installed.

-Robin

[Ocxic]

Let them know that Windows will display the EULA during the first boot and configuration when you power on the computer after you receive it, for and ask if YOU agree to it.
If it does not, then DELL has agreed to a legally binding agreement on your behalf without notification or consent, and without allowing you to to review the agreement before accepting it's terms and being fully informed of what they may be.
I'm pretty sure it is illegal for someone to sign a contract like that on your behalf.

[aysiu]

You can but computers from TigerDirect.com (http://tigerdirect.com) with no OS installed.

-Robin
Can you link directly to one? I couldn't find a no-OS laptop on the TigerDirect site.

[LowSky]

LOL its funny that I doodnt even read the OP correctly.

Secondly, You actually believe what some lowly educated phone jocky is telling you over the phone about a legal contract.

Call them up, tell them you need a PC without an OS and they should fulfill that order, if they say no, tell them it is for a business and you need it OS free for imaging, if they still say no, ask to speak to a manager, if they say no, ask to speak to their boss or complaints department, or tell them you will buy from a competator. Don't yell or scream, say please and thank you, and you should get what you ask for. Once you start yelling or berating them you lose your power.

[Polaris96]

It's pointless. I do confess a certain amount of guilty pleasure at getting Bill's minions flustered, though.

Lately, I'm finding the Apple people even more annoying, though. That mac/PC commercial needs to go.

[Pogeymanz]

Don't just suck it up and buy a Windows License! That's how they win and it's BS. When is the last time you walked into a store and were forced to buy a toaster with your pair of socks? Don't let them bully you into buying something you don't want. I would either fight it, or buy Linux preinstalled, but I will never buy a Windows PC unless I want a copy of Windows OS.

My 2 cents.

[gn2]

If you tell Dell you are purchasing for a business, or if you know someone who has a business account with them, they will supply hardware with no OS at a discounted price.

[glotz]

Don't just suck it up and buy a Windows License! That's how they win and it's BS. When is the last time you walked into a store and were forced to buy a toaster with your pair of socks? Don't let them bully you into buying something you don't want. I would either fight it, or buy Linux preinstalled, but I will never buy a Windows PC unless I want a copy of Windows OS.

My 2 cents.

Exactly.

[pwnst*r]

When is the last time you walked into a store and were forced to buy a toaster with your pair of socks?

that's a really bad analogy. pc's/laptops are bundled with windows for a reason - most people use them together, and yes, whether you like it or not, that's enough for most.

OP - take your business elsewhere, don't bother "fighting". waste of energy.

[Pogeymanz]

that's a really bad analogy. pc's/laptops are bundled with windows for a reason - most people use them together, and yes, whether you like it or not, that's enough for most.

OP - take your business elsewhere, don't bother "fighting". waste of energy.

Would you prefer if I changed it to Nike shoes instead of a toaster? That analogy is only half the point anyway.

The real point, that I forgot to mention, is that legally, they have to refund you if you don't accept the EULA, but in practice it's almost impossible and I think that's wrong. It's as much a contract for them as it is for the consumer and it clearly states that the consumer can get a refund. I know that if I lied in a legal document, I would get in a lot of trouble. I wonder what the ACLU thinks about it...?

[pwnst*r]

Would you prefer if I changed it to Nike shoes instead of a toaster? That analogy is only half the point anyway.

...is that legally, they have to refund you if you don't accept the EULA, but in practice it's almost impossible and I think that's wrong.

i totally agree with that, but that wasn't the challenge i presented. =)

[tad1073]

What ever happened to the quote "The customer is always right"?

Seems these days the sales people think they know what's best for the consumer.

Makes me sick

Right now, laptops aren't practicle to build yourself like desktops are, but maybe one day.

[pwnst*r]

What ever happened to the quote "The customer is always right"?

because it's not entirely true sometimes

[Dimitriid]

Forget Dell, why don't you look into a barebone notebook base? The term "barebone" barely applies since you usually need to choose a system with a screen, motherboard, PSU, videocard and processor preselected, however the important part is that since it will not come with a hard drive, optical drive or memory it will also not come with an operative system since its not sold as a finished product.

[tad1073]

because it's not entirely true sometimes

most of the time it is though, unless you know that the customer is trying to pull a fast one.

[pwnst*r]

most of the time it is though, unless you know that the customer is trying to pull a fast one.

but then that negates the quote's message entirely. if you're saying MOST of the time, then the quote cannot contain "always".

[tad1073]

I agree with this post here:
Don't just suck it up and buy a Windows License! That's how they win and it's BS. When is the last time you walked into a store and were forced to buy a toaster with your pair of socks? Don't let them bully you into buying something you don't want. I would either fight it, or buy Linux preinstalled, but I will never buy a Windows PC unless I want a copy of Windows OS.

My 2 cents.

If all I want is a toaster then sell me a toaster not a toaster with socks.

[Polaris96]

I don't like windows or OSX.

For that reason I neither use them, nor buy their products.

But, if I had to wind up paying $500 for something windows that would cost $600 to aquire piecemeal, I'd simply erase the os and go my own way.

If I could get a refund for the OS that would be great, but I wouldn't waste $100 of time for a $10 refund. It just doesn't make sense.

The big OS goons provide cash incentives for companies to bundle their stuff and build drivers. Whether it's Windows, OSX, or Solaris, it will never be Ubuntu unless we pass the collection plate around to grease developers. I won't be contributing.

Why be idealistic? Windows will eventually topple and something probably worse will replace it. We have our OS and it's here for those that want it.

[tcoffeep]

I buy my computers as barebones kit.

[jonian_g]

Buy the one you found on system76 and a sticker for the top of the laptop. When it is damaged, buy a new sticker.

[gn2]

I buy my computers as barebones kit.

Bit tricky if you want a laptop.....

[tcoffeep]

Psh.

http://laptoping.com/category/barebone-laptops/

[ssam]

there is a database of linux friendly retailers at http://lxer.com/module/db/index.php?dbn=14


(if you know of any others please add them)

[Pogeymanz]

[...]

Why be idealistic? [...]

There are several reasons that I will list in order of least important to most important.

3. Because you might end up making a difference. If you are willing to take the $100 hit for something you believe in, maybe others will follow suit. Or maybe the companies will start listening.

2. Because having ideals it what keeps us from being drones. If nobody goes against the flow, we might as well be replaced by robots. IMO.

1. Because if you believe that something is wrong, then I believe you are morally obligated to make a stand, even if it wont make a difference. I wont support things that I believe are wrong, especially just to save some cash.

I know that you might just not feel that strongly about an OS, which is fine and not the point I'm trying to make. I'm just answering your question about being idealistic.

I, on the other hand, do think that software and hardware should be independent and I also think that the Windows EULA-refund issue needs to be addressed. And I just wont buy something I don't want. I don't care if it's only $10.

[aysiu]

3. Because you might end up making a difference. If you are willing to take the $100 hit for something you believe in, maybe others will follow suit. Or maybe the companies will start listening.
It doesn't have to be a $100 hit. I bought my Linux HP Mini for $30 cheaper than a Windows HP Mini with the same specs. If you buy the Dell Inspiron 15n with Ubuntu right now, it's $200 cheaper than the Inspiron 15 with Vista.

The only other thing I'd add is that there are long-term freedoms and short-term freedoms. Sometimes you have to sacrifice short-term freedoms in order to attain long-term freedoms.

In this case, buying Linux preinstalled or going through the headache of getting a Windows refund would limit your purchasing options or engage you in a lot of phone-waiting and letter-writing... in the short-term.

But if enough Linux users do one of those things (Linux preinstalled or Windows refunds), then we will see more and more Linux-preinstalled or no-OS options available to everyone... in the long-term.

[gn2]

Psh.

http://laptoping.com/category/barebone-laptops/

Now try to find stockists..... and you'll need psychological counselling once you work out the price of putting them together.

[drawkcab]

www.powernotebooks.com

These guys will build you a nice custom barebones sans OS. If you buy a rebranded power pro (usually an MSI or Compal), they'll throw in a free three year warranty. Awful website, but I have bought my last two laptops from them recently.