You can't use GPL soft and Linux in the near future! Please read!

[commodore]

Read atleast one of these:

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html
http://www.againsttcpa.com/tcpa-faq-en.html

In the future you won't be able to install Linux. Well there will be some Linux, but it will cost you and it isn't a Linux like today's world Linux's are. You won't be able to use nor make GPL software. The system is done so cleverly. Our computers will be run by Microsoft! You HAVE to use Office to open Office files. You have to use properiaty software. And this might happen this year allready!! I don't know what to do! I'm just 14.

[xequence]

If this ever happens, computers will be almost useless. Everything will cost so much money to do anything.

[mstlyevil]

Read atleast one of these:

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html
http://www.againsttcpa.com/tcpa-faq-en.html

In the future you won't be able to install Linux. Well there will be some Linux, but it will cost you and it isn't a Linux like today's world Linux's are. You won't be able to use nor make GPL software. The system is done so cleverly. Our computers will be run by Microsoft! You HAVE to use Office to open Office files. You have to use properiaty software. And this might happen this year allready!! I don't know what to do! I'm just 14.

FUD! No one can tell you what you can or cannot install as your operating system on your computer. Also if MSFT actually locked Linux out of all hardware, they would be bankrupt by all the lawsuits and Government action. Under existing laws it would be illegal for these companies to lock in all hardware to just Windows. TPM and DRM does not lock you out of using Linux or any of the *nixes.

[23meg]

Here (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=97159) is some relevant discussion on TC that took place on the forums before.

And yes, I believe TC will fail horribly. It's a big gamble and it will fail, horribly.

[DoeRayMe]

What exactly are they trying to achieve?

Completely agree to the above post

[briancurtin]

FUD!
this is all that needs to be said. end of thread.

[23meg]

It's not all FUD; TC has more nasty stuff in it than the fact that it will somehow undermine the GPL, it's a whole new ownership paradigm. Actually as I like to put it, for the user it's a paradigm for lack thereof.

The fact that we see a "Computer" icon instead of "My Computer" in those Vista preview screenshots says something.

[xequence]

The fact that we see a "Computer" icon instead of "My Computer" in those Vista preview screenshots says something.

When they put "my computer" in there they wanted it to feel more personal. Guess they dont want that anymore.

[commodore]

There are so many firms dealing with it that laws can't fck it up. It's done so cleverly that it won't get prohibited by law.

People can still create Linux's, but only some Linux's will get the TC certificate and only those can be used, but those are crap.

You can only install software that's allowed by the TC. GPL soft won't be allowed. And if some GPL soft is, you can't open other soft's formats with it.

[DoeRayMe]

They have removed all the 'My' pre-fixes

So no 'My Documents' just 'Documents'

[GeneralZod]

Why didn't you just add this to the thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=117608) you made earlier :confused: ?

[23meg]

Here (http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=157574&cid=13228473) are some more bitter facts.

[briancurtin]

It's not all FUD; TC has more nasty stuff in it than the fact that it will somehow undermine the GPL, it's a whole new ownership paradigm. Actually as I like to put it, for the user it's a paradigm for lack thereof.

The fact that we see a "Computer" icon instead of "My Computer" in those Vista preview screenshots says something.
yeah the TC stuff itself isnt FUD, but this thread is. saying "you cant use GPL software and linux in the near future" is completely FUD

[mstlyevil]

yeah the TC stuff itself isnt FUD, but this thread is. saying "you cant use GPL software and linux in the near future" is completely FUD

That was what I was calling FUD. Even you 23meg stated so much in the previous thread you posted. I agree with you that Linux will not be locked in to TPM and DRM. I see two worlds existing side by side. The first one is the propietary TPM/DRM world that everything you do on a computer has to be approved by the companies/parties that support TPM. The second will be the GNU/Opensource world that will give people the choice of utilizing TPM if they wish to use propietary software but they can disable it and just stick with GNU/OSS software. You are going to see new media being created without DRM because the artist are opposed to the erosion of peoples rights. You will also see a huge shift in the number of people dropping Windows, Mac and other propietary software because they do not want their privacy invaded or their rights dimminished.

What is funny is TPM and DRM are being created to stop piracy yet it will lead to more piracy. People will crack the code and alter all sorts of software and media to play on anything. When this happens many people who were opposed to piracy because it was stealing will resort to it not because they want the software/media for free but because they resent the restrictions the propietary versions are placing on them. Ultimately this scheme will fail as the Sony root-kit fiasco has.

[bonzodog]

I'm sorry guys, but this is OLD news. Things have happened since 2003 that mean essentially TCPA will never take off. HP/Compaq have pulled out for a start. There WILL still be attempts to introduce it, but AMD will not go along with it. So they are now attempting to create a walled garden within the net using IPv6, so there will be a 'good, trusted' net which you will ONLY get access to by paying EVERY step of the way, and using MS as your platform.
Trust me there is a war on.
On one side we have nvidia, Linux, HP, AMD, IBM et al, and on the other side we have ATI, Intel, Microsoft, Dell et al.
Recently, there has been a huge push for open standards, rather than trusted computing. Even Bill gates said last year(2005), that in 10 years he sees only two platforms: Linux and MS. MS are even contributing towards Open Source, as they see it as the definitive future of the net. Also, remember there are too many of us hackers and reverse engineers out there. I have been an active part of the software hacking community for years. And, TCPA is already accounted for in the linux kernel code.

[Perfect Storm]

As Bonzodog says, so you guys can just relaxe. No need to bring panic.

[arnieboy]

just a minor correction:
Intel is on Linux's side.

[red_Marvin]

If worst comes to worse, a smart hardware manufacturer could start make
non-TC hardware and get the whole linux clientel...

[23meg]

On one side we have nvidia, Linux, HP, AMD, IBM et al, and on the other side we have ATI, Intel, Microsoft, Dell et al.
just a minor correction:
Intel is on Linux's side.

https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/about/members/

[arnieboy]

https://www.trustedcomputinggroup.org/about/members/
thats interesting because till recently, Intel had gotten quite frustrated with Microsoft and thats how most Intel video cards have 3D acceleration by default on linux kernels.

[23meg]

That was what I was calling FUD. Even you 23meg stated so much in the previous thread you posted. In that thread I only made my stance clear and responded to the arguments of others; when I did go into the matter of TC undermining the GPL I merely quoted the FAQ saying it and stated that I found that a bit too speculative.

[BWF89]

The world is going to hell.

[zenwhen]

This thread is tinfoil hat bullcrap at its worst.

[Ubuntu_User]

This thread is tinfoil hat bullcrap at its worst.
And this answer was moderation at its best.

[briancurtin]

This thread is tinfoil hat bullcrap at its worst.
bingo

[ade234uk]

You know I don't carry annoyances around with me it takes too much energy but I just hope Microsoft would go bust or I wish the law would sue there ****ing arses for off for all the misery and back stabbing and bad press these have caused over the last 20 years.

Microsoft will eventually fall from top spot and I will not care a ****, infact I will just laugh.

[mstlyevil]

This thread is tinfoil hat bullcrap at its worst.

ROFLMAO

[JimmyJazz]

I think safe is better than sorry but I wouldn't count on any of this happening anytime soon or ever for that matter.

[Stormy Eyes]

Sure I can. What's Microsoft going to do, send people over to my apartment to make sure I'm running their crappy software? Let 'em; the dumpsters behind my apartment get emptied every three days. :evil:

[Mr_Grieves]

TC.. yea.. I remeber when they started fuzzing about that. Made me happy AND ANGRY. :) :mad:

I think as an author before me.. that it will fail.. horribly. It's a load of evil crap and works for the open source communities advantage. Because: wich sane person would like this? It'll make people turn to open source even more than before.

Thank you Mr. Gates. :) :mad:

[Iandefor]

Sure I can. What's Microsoft going to do, send people over to my apartment to make sure I'm running their crappy software? Let 'em; the dumpsters behind my apartment get emptied every three days. :evil: They won't need to send people over; it'll be controlled remotely. Well, once MS takes control of the government, we may well get something like the MSKGB, the MS Gestapo, or even the MSNKVD, and people in black leather coats will start dropping by Linux users' homes all over. But, apparently, the kernel's already prepared for TC, so it's a bit of a moot point.

[AlexandreP]

And yes, I believe TC will fail horribly. It's a big gamble and it will fail, horribly.
Are you sure? Most people don't even know that something like TC is about to happen some day...

[mstlyevil]

Are you sure? Most people don't even know that something like TC is about to happen some day...

They didn't know about Sony's root-kit either. As soon as they became aware what happend? The public will find out one way or another.

[BoyOfDestiny]

They didn't know about Sony's root-kit either. As soon as they became aware what happend? The public will find out one way or another.

Yep, I think most people will miss rights that things like a VCR and tape recorder granted...

On that note I'm happy to announce a place where I've legally downloaded audio and video...

http://www.archive.org/

http://www.archive.org/details/Caruso_part1

I recommend this... great opera... So some of the music is near 100 years old (I can deal with that).

Not everyone wants to lock up content forever. With stupid drm attempts to plug the analog hole (i.e make it impossible to record sound coming out of your speakers or use a camera to record your screen... Ok dumb examples, but they are trying)...

Just ticks me off, but relax, I don't think people will stand for it.

A link for fun reading:

http://bpdg.blogs.eff.org/archives/000113.html

Anyway, just watch who you give your $$$ to and your vote too...

[poofyhairguy]

I'm not scared in the near future. I recently just bought a nice new computer with none of this stuff in it. And no one is going to break in my house and add it.

The only way this stuff will ever get scary is in like 40 years when you have to have a trusted platform to get on the net. Then I find a new hobby!

[23meg]

They didn't know about Sony's root-kit either. As soon as they became aware what happend? The public will find out one way or another.Right; but the earlier they're aware, the better. A computer and an OS (actually one's whole computing activity, since that's what's at stake) is a bigger and more persistent investment than an audio CD.

[23meg]

But, apparently, the kernel's already prepared for TC, so it's a bit of a moot point.Just because there's TPM support in the kernel doesn't mean that the OS is "ready for TC", and even when it's ready, it's the actual implementation of TC that's important, not whether or how it's supported. TC is a technological possibility in its essence, which can be used for "evil" as well as well intentioned, smart purposes.

I recently just bought a nice new computer with none of this stuff in it. And no one is going to break in my house and add it.Most new motherboards today ship with a TPM and by mid-2006 most if not all processors and definitely all new motherboards will have TC components, so we practically won't be able to avoid the actual hardware components. What will matter from then on will be to avoid the software components, which roughly means not using a proprietary TC-enabled OS to go online, because TC is a scheme that relies on both hardware support and OS + userspace implementation.

[skirkpatrick]

A link for fun reading:

http://bpdg.blogs.eff.org/archives/000113.html


Being an electronics engineer as well as an embedded programmer by trade, I can tell you that this is absolute BS. The majority of the circuitry in an ADC chip is for conversion, there is almost no smarts in them. Adding the "cop-chip" would probably raise the price of a standalone ADC chip 5-10 times. Embedded processors with ADC ports built into them wouldn't be able to support the additional "cop-chip" circuitry either. To do the kind of watermark detection they are talking about here would require a DSP core that is vastly more powerful than your standard embedded processor. And consumer devices are all about lowering cost.

[Stormy Eyes]

But, apparently, the kernel's already prepared for TC, so it's a bit of a moot point.

sudo rmmod tcpa -- any questions?

[mips]

Only allowing trusted computing on the net will only work as long as the US retains control of the net. Say what you want but US corporations run the US and most of the world (About 200 or so of the big ones).

So we should all participate in measures that will see the end of the USA's control of the net. This topic is currently a hot potato the world over.

To US citizens, this is NOT a flame or insult targeted at you or your country but rather something that I think would benefit humanity as a whole.

[mstlyevil]

Double Post.

[mstlyevil]

Only allowing trusted computing on the net will only work as long as the US retains control of the net. Say what you want but US corporations run the US and most of the world (About 200 or so of the big ones).

So we should all participate in measures that will see the end of the USA's control of the net. This topic is currently a hot potato the world over.

To US citizens, this is NOT a flame or insult targeted at you or your country but rather something that I think would benefit humanity as a whole.

The only problem with this argument is the EU and most of Asia supports TC-TPM. Even if ICAAN loses control of the net you will still see attempts to add TC to the net.

[BoyOfDestiny]

GPLv3 draft mentions DRM specifically, and the R stands for restrictions;) ... Gotta love it!

http://gplv3.fsf.org/rationale#SECTION00340000000000000000

[ardchoille]

Read atleast one of these:

http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/can-you-trust.html
http://www.againsttcpa.com/tcpa-faq-en.html

In the future you won't be able to install Linux. Well there will be some Linux, but it will cost you and it isn't a Linux like today's world Linux's are. You won't be able to use nor make GPL software. The system is done so cleverly. Our computers will be run by Microsoft! You HAVE to use Office to open Office files. You have to use properiaty software. And this might happen this year allready!! I don't know what to do! I'm just 14.
No one tells my what I can and can't do on my own computer in the privacy of my own home.
If any of this were to go through, someone will just come along and start making hardware that is open and free.. and they'll get lots of customers I promise you. Then, someone else (perhaps a rag-tag group of smart folks who refuse to submit, sound familiar?) will come along and make a nice OS that runs on that hardware.. and they'll get lots of users I promise you.

No one can keep everyone out forever, and anyone who thinks they can really needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

[Iandefor]

No one tells my what I can and can't do on my own computer in the privacy of my own home.
If any of this were to go through, someone will just come along and start making hardware that is open and free.. and they'll get lots of customers I promise you. Then, someone else (perhaps a rag-tag group of smart folks who refuse to submit, sound familiar?) will come along and make a nice OS that runs on that hardware.. and they'll get lots of users I promise you.
No one can keep everyone out forever, and anyone who thinks they can really needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Tell it!

Hell, there's no need to make an entirely open system from the ground up. I'm certain it'd be possible to bypass the TC chip, or even to begin the manufacture of x86 boards without the chip. Who needs greedy ol' Microsoft, anyway?

[23meg]

Tell it!

Hell, there's no need to make an entirely open system from the ground up. I'm certain it'd be possible to bypass the TC chip, or even to begin the manufacture of x86 boards without the chip. Who needs greedy ol' Microsoft, anyway?
Indeed, as I said before, as long as your OS and your apps aren't utilizing TC, you aren't using TC; you just have TC-supporting hardware that you've paid for sitting down doing nothing in your box. And with open source you can know for certain that they aren't utilizing it, and if they are, you can remove their ability to utilize it, because you have access to the code. With a proprietary OS you're more or less tied and locked in.

[Iandefor]

Indeed, as I said before, as long as your OS and your apps aren't utilizing TC, you aren't using TC; you just have TC-supporting hardware that you've paid for sitting down doing nothing in your box. And with open source you can know for certain that they aren't utilizing it, and if they are, you can remove their ability to utilize it, because you have access to the code. With a proprietary OS you're more or less tied and locked in. I heard you before; it's just that some people absolutely do not want a bleeding Trusted Computing module in their computer, even if it's not actually doing anything.

[nalmeth]

Interesting debate guys. Keep it up.
Personally, I think MS is not yet at the point where they could lose their whole following in a day, and would risk the herd with such a venture. Such a gamble is unbecoming of people who are frighteningly intelligent, and who have not built their empires with reckless ambition, but with patient but headstrong authority. Especially with such reaction all around, even from their golfing buddies. I don't suggest that such persons wouldn't jump at the chance to consolidate further, but I'm not a "Power corrupts absolutely" kind of guy. More of a "fear of losing power corrupts" kinda guy. Bill is more suited to pretending that linux simply doesn't exist.

Shhh shhh, there are no linux hackers after you. It's all just a dream. Just a dream dream dreamm... just a dreamm dreaamm dreaammm.....................

[23meg]

I heard you before; it's just that some people absolutely do not want a bleeding Trusted Computing module in their computer, even if it's not actually doing anything.
To me that makes sense because the TPM and TC support built into the CPU will actually add to the manufacturing cost, and if they sit idle doing nothing in your box you'll be feeding the TCPA by paying for something you'll never use.

I have no hope of a "rebel" manufacturer stepping up and making TC-free hardware; we're more or less stuck with TC infested hardware from now on. We should just keep our personal policies regarding the utilization of TC on our computers clear. In my current Dapper installation the module tpm_infineon is loaded by default, but I want a TC-free system, and getting rid of it is a simple matter of doing
sudo rmmod tpm_infineonand then blacklisting it. If I were using a proprietary TC-enabled OS (read: Vista) and chose to shut down TC, that would more or less defeat the purpose of using that OS since I wouldn't be able to run any TC-enabled app made by any TCPA member vendor.

In this regard TC is once more highlighting the importance of free software.

[Iandefor]

To me that makes sense because the TPM and TC support built into the CPU will actually add to the manufacturing cost, and if they sit idle doing nothing in your box you'll be feeding the TCPA by paying for something you'll never use.

I have no hope of a "rebel" manufacturer stepping up and making TC-free hardware; we're more or less stuck with TC infested hardware from now on. We should just keep our personal policies regarding the utilization of TC on our computers clear. In my current Dapper installation the module tpm_infineon is loaded, but I want a TC-free system, and getting rid of it is a simple matter of doing
sudo rmmod tpm_infineonand then blacklisting it. If I were using a proprietary TC-enabled OS and chose to shut down TC, that would more or less defeat the purpose of using that OS since I wouldn't be able to run any TC-enabled app made by any TCPA member vendor.

In this regard TC is once more highlighting the importance of free software. How do you blacklist a kernel module?

[23meg]

How do you blacklist a kernel module?
By adding its name to /etc/hotplug/blacklist .

[Iandefor]

By adding its name to /etc/hotplug/blacklist. Handy... thanks.

[skirkpatrick]

I don't think that it's going to drive the cost of a processor up by very much. The number of transistors required to implement it is miniscule compared to the rest of the processor.

[PatrickMay16]

The fact that we see a "Computer" icon instead of "My Computer" in those Vista preview screenshots says something.
Are you sure?

"OK, now double click on 'My Computer'." "Your computer?" No, I mean..."

I think they probably changed it because of that.

[Seaman]

What is funny is TPM and DRM are being created to stop piracy yet it will lead to more piracy. People will crack the code and alter all sorts of software and media to play on anything. When this happens many people who were opposed to piracy because it was stealing will resort to it not because they want the software/media for free but because they resent the restrictions the propietary versions are placing on them. Ultimately this scheme will fail as the Sony root-kit fiasco has.
Exactly! If I go to the music store and find that the album I was going to buy wasn't supported by Linux because of some crappy DRM, I won't buy it. Of course I still want to listen to the music, so what other alternative do I get then downloading it?

And since the Sony root-kit #%&! with spywares and the theft of GPL source I will no longer buy anymore products from Sony, not as much as a single CD-R. I'll also try to prevent others from buying their products. :-x

[BSDFreak]

This thread is tinfoil hat bullcrap at its worst.

Amen

[Ptero-4]

No one tells my what I can and can't do on my own computer in the privacy of my own home.
If any of this were to go through, someone will just come along and start making hardware that is open and free.. and they'll get lots of customers I promise you. Then, someone else (perhaps a rag-tag group of smart folks who refuse to submit, sound familiar?) will come along and make a nice OS that runs on that hardware.. and they'll get lots of users I promise you.

No one can keep everyone out forever, and anyone who thinks they can really needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

Actually. The open hardware is already here (http://system76.com) and the open OS is also here (http://www.ubuntu.com).

P.D: This is getting pretty bad, but I got a good PC already, so I won't be trapped in this. And I got a pretty big gun and a hefty armor in case one of those M$ orcs show up in my house.

[steven8]

This thread is tinfoil hat bullcrap at its worst.

I don't think so. I would like to think so, but I don't. I was just talking about this with my partner here at work, and he says, "If there is any way for someone to make a lot of money off of it, it'll happen."

So, it will probably happen. It's just awful, in my opinion, but it will probably come to be.

[tehhaxorr]

I can almost certainly see a massive split between computer users everywhere if this goes ahead worst case senario wise, there will be the FLOSS side and the MS side, two totally oposite and incompatible computer networks that simply do not interact, by the time of the full enforcement of TCPA, i can see the FLOSS community being big enough and powerfull enough to become self sufficient from the TCPA controlled regieme. People are going to hate this idea so much that if it ever goes ahead there will be an incredible influx of users to the FLOSS side.

[shining]

Actually. The open hardware is already here (http://system76.com) and the open OS is also here (http://www.ubuntu.com).

P.D: This is getting pretty bad, but I got a good PC already, so I won't be trapped in this. And I got a pretty big gun and a hefty armor in case one of those M$ orcs show up in my house.

What does make system76 open hardware ?

[shining]

I can almost certainly see a massive split between computer users everywhere if this goes ahead worst case senario wise, there will be the FLOSS side and the MS side, two totally oposite and incompatible computer networks that simply do not interact, by the time of the full enforcement of TCPA, i can see the FLOSS community being big enough and powerfull enough to become self sufficient from the TCPA controlled regieme. People are going to hate this idea so much that if it ever goes ahead there will be an incredible influx of users to the FLOSS side.

I guess that's why they won't do it then...

[kebes]

Indeed, as I said before, as long as your OS and your apps aren't utilizing TC, you aren't using TC; you just have TC-supporting hardware that you've paid for sitting down doing nothing in your box. And with open source you can know for certain that they aren't utilizing it, and if they are, you can remove their ability to utilize it, because you have access to the code. With a proprietary OS you're more or less tied and locked in.

The worry, though, is that after TC chips are commonplace in motherboards, some kind of "deal" will be struck where (for instance) the motherboard manufacturers require that the OS be approved. They only distribute keys to "approved" OS vendors. If the BIOS itself does a "trusted" check as the kernel loads, then no Open-Source OS will be able to run.

So there's no guarantee that our current software freedoms will remain intact if the hardware vendors put in hardware-level restrictions. Bypassing hardware may be possible, but will either require cumbersome modchips, or will require some kind of software tricks that will probably violate the DMCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMCA)in the United States.

My hope is that there will be enough of a market for non-trusted-computer hardware, that I will always have access to an hardware flatform that allows software freedom. However we should not be too complacent... if we see companies creating Linux-unfriendly hardware, we need to cry foul. (And we need to have the DMCA repealed.)

[macogw]

Interesting debate guys. Keep it up.
Personally, I think MS is not yet at the point where they could lose their whole following in a day, and would risk the herd with such a venture. Such a gamble is unbecoming of people who are frighteningly intelligent, and who have not built their empires with reckless ambition, but with patient but headstrong authority. Especially with such reaction all around, even from their golfing buddies. I don't suggest that such persons wouldn't jump at the chance to consolidate further, but I'm not a "Power corrupts absolutely" kind of guy. More of a "fear of losing power corrupts" kinda guy. Bill is more suited to pretending that linux simply doesn't exist.

Shhh shhh, there are no linux hackers after you. It's all just a dream. Just a dream dream dreamm... just a dreamm dreaamm dreaammm.....................

One of my friends went to CMU and she said that when Gates visited, within a half hour of the announcement they had permission to have a Linux convention thing in front of the building. So aside from handing out Knoppix cds, painting the fence into a BSOD (there has been an exception at <zip code> please restart your campus), painting GNU, Hurd, Linux, BeOS, Solaris, etc on the back of the fence, chalking Bill Ph34rs W33n (or however the name of that building is spelt), putting a big penguin on top of the building, etc......during Q&A a student raised his hand and said he had a two-part question. He asked if he'd ever actually tried Linux. He said he used it once or twice. Then the kid said "then will you accept my gift of Linux?" and walked up and handed him a Knoppix cd, which he took. Yeah, Bill Gates is really really unwelcome at CMU. And this girl never used Linux til she started going there.

[macogw]

The worry, though, is that after TC chips are commonplace in motherboards, some kind of "deal" will be struck where (for instance) the motherboard manufacturers require that the OS be approved. They only distribute keys to "approved" OS vendors. If the BIOS itself does a "trusted" check as the kernel loads, then no Open-Source OS will be able to run.

There is always Linux BIOS. I think that's what it's called. It's an open-source BIOS, works on a lot (though certainly far from all) of mobos, and loads up a lot faster than the 2 main BIOS makers.

[Lord Illidan]

One of my friends went to CMU and she said that when Gates visited, within a half hour of the announcement they had permission to have a Linux convention thing in front of the building. So aside from handing out Knoppix cds, painting the fence into a BSOD (there has been an exception at <zip code> please restart your campus), painting GNU, Hurd, Linux, BeOS, Solaris, etc on the back of the fence, chalking Bill Ph34rs W33n (or however the name of that building is spelt), putting a big penguin on top of the building, etc......during Q&A a student raised his hand and said he had a two-part question. He asked if he'd ever actually tried Linux. He said he used it once or twice. Then the kid said "then will you accept my gift of Linux?" and walked up and handed him a Knoppix cd, which he took. Yeah, Bill Gates is really really unwelcome at CMU. And this girl never used Linux til she started going there.

Childish, imho. I respect Gates more than that.

[SunnyRabbiera]

I think the ideals of TC will chance, as some people on our side are in it like HP...
Novell I dont trust anymore but HP has opened themselves to the linux community with opening most of thier printers to us, HP I think will become a great ally in the near future as I heard they do not like vista all that much... heck themy might even make a deal with Apple, but will join up with linux first.

Even Microsoft has issues with TC, this can hurt them as bad as it can hurt us...

[kebes]

I think the ideals of TC will chance, as some people on our side are in it like HP..

It's also worth noting that although the TC hardware may be designed to enforce "copy protection" on media and so forth, it can also be used to do things that are useful for the user.

For instance, Linux could use the capabilities as security protection... the kernel could be digitally signed which would prevent a rootkit from modifying it, for instance. Similarly you could have applications running in different modes of trust, where apps that are, for instance, signed by the Debian repository are given more access to resources/files/etc. than "less trusted" code. The TC chip could be used to build effective sandboxes in the OS to prevent "escalation of privileges" hacker-attacks.

Another thought is that TC hardware will probably have to implement all kinds of encryption/decryption routines... which could be used in Linux for faster computation of encryption/decryption algorithms, etc.

I'm sure if TC chips become commonplace, the Open Source world will find ways of using them efficiently and to our advantage. However all this assumes that TC is not used as a way to prevent Open Source Operating Systems from booting at all (see my previous comment).

[Dragonbite]

The first article is dated 2002, that was before IBM "got religion" about Linux, Apple was all on PPC and Linux was a far cry less polished on the desktop than now. Also, Vista was just being started, Microsoft was in full-power and Open Source was almost unheard of by the masses.

Now, the masses are getting fed up with Microsoft, Linux is seen as an (almost) equal competitor, open source is almost a household term and people are liking the options they are getting access to (Firefox, Thunderbird, Gimp, etc.)

Considering Microsoft is having trouble with their own Genuine Advantage system, I don't think they'll really be ready for the number of lawsuits coming from "false positives" with a system like this.

And never underestimate the power of the hacker!! Someone will tinker and find a way around it or come out with a product that does not include or bypasses it so that freedom is restored.

[Ptero-4]

What does make system76 open hardware ?

Simple. the guys at system76 chooses the most linux-friendly hardware in existence which makes it the "most open" PC platform you can get. Also they reprogrammed a TPM chip so their PC can interact with devices that requires TCPA and fool future TCPA based networks. Call this turning the enemy weapons against them.

[DrainBead]

Simple. the guys at system76 chooses the most linux-friendly hardware in existence which makes it the "most open" PC platform you can get. Also they reprogrammed a TPM chip so their PC can interact with devices that requires TCPA and fool future TCPA based networks. Call this turning the enemy weapons against them.

Baloney, the TPM chips in ANY computer can be controlled by the Linux kernel for a year now, system76 chips are not special in that regard.

I bought an Asus Laptop about three months ago and with TPM that can be controlled via the kernel TPM module.

There was a tinfoil hat conspiracy rumour going around about the great fear we all should feel because of TPM, it's still raging but what most don't realize is that it is still user controlled.

TPM is a through and through good thing in any system, implementations of it can be good or bad, Vistas implementation is good, so is Linux's, in the future MS may choose a different strategy but Linux can still use any implementation preferable.