GM bankrupsy... We own you now, Open up the source code!

[savantelite]

At this time next year I would like to be freely changing my source code on my 2010 Silverado. I am talking a USB right in the dash with a laptop running free open application on my laptop.

Please spread the word. We want our GM source code!!!

[DeadSuperHero]

While that's all fine and dandy, what point would that really serve in an automobile?

[baseface]

since im sure you know how the hundreds of sensors interact with the 20 different control modules and how those 20 modules interact with the 5 different main computers in a modern american car.

[Skripka]

While that's all fine and dandy, what point would that really serve in an automobile?

Well, any modern auto CANNOT be fixed without plugging it into a computer to diagnose...so this isn't as pointless as you might think. ;)

[baseface]

Well, any modern auto CANNOT be fixed without plugging it into a computer to diagnose...so this isn't as pointless as you might think. ;)

u dont exactly need any source code for that.

[schauerlich]

I wouldn't trust some 14 year old with a high speed connection and not enough outside time to control a 4000lb piece of metal moving at 65mph with me inside of it.

[Skripka]

u dont exactly need any source code for that.

I haven't researched it..but how high are the odds that each maker has their own proprietary connector, and/or their own proprietary OS on the car? I'd be surprised if it was any other way actually.

[baseface]

I wouldn't trust some 14 year old with a high speed connection and not enough outside time to control a 4000lb piece of metal moving at 65mph with me inside of it.

exactly. and not just 14yr olds. domestic terrorism comes to mind.

[burvowski]

By that logic, I wouldn't trust someone with a computer OS's source code since they could potentially use that for cyber-terrorism.

[Screwdriver0815]

I haven't researched it..but how high are the odds that each maker has their own proprietary connector, and/or their own proprietary OS on the car? I'd be surprised if it was any other way actually.
not high. Because most of the ECU stuff comes from Bosch. So the source code is not GM-property, its Bosch.
Even if it is not Bosch, then it is Delphi, Visteon, Magneti Marelli, whatever.

and the connector is not own to each manufacturer as the worldwide onboard diagnostics normative describes a uniform connection for all cars on the market

[pwnst*r]

At this time next year I would like to be freely changing my source code on my 2010 Silverado. I am talking a USB right in the dash with a laptop running free open application on my laptop.

Please spread the word. We want our GM source code!!!

LOL, good luck with that.

[baseface]

not high. Because most of the ECU stuff comes from Bosch. So the source code is not GM-property, its Bosch.
Even if it is not Bosch, then it is Delphi, Visteon, Magneti Marelli, whatever.

and the connector is not own to each manufacturer as the worldwide onboard diagnostics normative describes a uniform connection for all cars on the market

ah, someone who knows a thing or 2 about this stuff.
delphi is almost the sole provider for american made stuff.
visteon mainly handles the clusters.

[lisati]

And for our next trick we'll hook up the ehternet connector on our FreeView boxes to our home network.

[Giant Speck]

I'll admit, I facepalmed.

[Hated On Mostly]

savantelite,

It looks like the humor of your post went over the heads of everybody posting in this thread, because they are actually seriously discussing this...





http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[forrestcupp]

At this time next year I would like to be freely changing my source code on my 2010 Silverado. I am talking a USB right in the dash with a laptop running free open application on my laptop.

Please spread the word. We want our GM source code!!!And KFC had better release the recipe for their secret herbs and spices!


savantelite,

It looks like the humor of your post went over the heads of everybody posting in this thread, because they are actually seriously discussing this...
I hope it was a joke, but around here you just can't assume that someone is joking, especially if there are no smiley's. ;)

[baseface]

a lot of people around here think that because they use linux, EVERYTHING should be open source... so its a safe to assume that OP was NOT joking.

[MaxIBoy]

*Nuked for untruth*

[timcredible]

the op makes an interesting point though, the US government (ie, US citizens) now owns 60% of GM. we should be able to tell GM what kind of cars we want rather than the upper management of GM deciding on what cars to make based on what bribes they get from the oil industry.

[pwnst*r]

savantelite,

It looks like the humor of your post went over the heads of everybody posting in this thread, because they are actually seriously discussing this...







that was humor? lol?

[burvowski]

You already have the power to tell GM which cars you want, by buying or not buying them. That's why they are bankrupt while foreign car companies are not, because people were not buying their oversized cars, keeping them from making money.

[inspriation26]

Personaly I think all code should be open-source but be copy-lefted (if you dont get what i mean check out the GPL) or under creative commons. It makes everyone's life easier because instead of takeing one company's programers 3 weeks to make a patch when the comunity can work together and get it out in a couple of days. If Microsoft and everyone else figured this out I'd still be with windows and there would be less viruses and everyone would be happy. Man I just wish that these people would learn that being too stingy is like purposly running into a pole when everyone is trying to help you out. Blindness people! Sorry if i ranted but this is what I feel.

[Daremo_06]

It's against the law to mess with the computers in your car, as far as I know, because they enforce the legally-required limits on acceleration, top speed, horsepower, etc. Very difficult to get caught, but if they do find you out, they will impound your car and destroy it. If I'm wrong, please let me know, because I actually really want to mess with that stuff when I get a car. :)

Ok you have a significant number of posts, so I doubt your a troll :P. That leads me to pose this question.

Where in the hell did you get that outrageous idea?

There are modifications made to many many many cars out there for all kinds of reasons. A vast majority are for high-performance reasons, but I am quite sure thats not the only application.

There are no "laws" on modifying your car's ECU or for that part any other part of the car as long as it does not violate the basic safety and/or emission regulations for your particular state. For example, you have to have bumpers and they cant be mounted on the roof. Things like that.

Furthermore, the original poster of this thread must not know very much about OBD and OBD II which are automotive standards created in the mid 90's.

Hope that helps explain things a bit for you.

[Daremo_06]

You already have the power to tell GM which cars you want, by buying or not buying them. That's why they are bankrupt while foreign car companies are not, because people were not buying their oversized cars, keeping them from making money.

Its not that they are all oversized, its that their product in many examples, was just plain lousy. Detroit has to realize that they can't keep selling piles of junk like the K-car(best example I could come up with and I know there are a zillion others) and expect to compete with the likes of Honda, Toyota and VW.

[savantelite]

Thank you to both sides for your opinions. Its exciting to have so much communication on a subject.

The general vibes I am getting so far are

1. That sounds to dangerous
2. You don't know what you would do if one had the code and a way to manipulate it
3. Why???
4. Is this a joke???

I bring this up because I think computers have killed the regular Joe car hobbyist. He doesn't have any control over the car if he can't access the computer. Many times the hobbyist removes the electronics and fixes everything manually:(

[MaxIBoy]

Ok you have a significant number of posts, so I doubt your a troll :P. That leads me to pose this question.

Where in the hell did you get that outrageous idea?

There are modifications made to many many many cars out there for all kinds of reasons. A vast majority are for high-performance reasons, but I am quite sure thats not the only application.

There are no "laws" on modifying your car's ECU or for that part any other part of the car as long as it does not violate the basic safety and/or emission regulations for your particular state. For example, you have to have bumpers and they cant be mounted on the roof. Things like that.

Furthermore, the original poster of this thread must not know very much about OBD and OBD II which are automotive standards created in the mid 90's.

Hope that helps explain things a bit for you.Thanks! Because I was somewhat disappointed when I first heard all that stuff from my cousin.

[Daremo_06]

I bring this up because I think computers have killed the regular Joe car hobbyist. He doesn't have any control over the car if he can't access the computer. Many times the hobbyist removes the electronics and fixes everything manually:(

Its not computers, its technology in general that has made things more complex. Originally cars use carburation for atomizing the fuel/air mixture. Then mechanical fuel injection was created. Along with that was evolution from a points style ignition system to a system that does not have any moving parts (distributor-less). Computers make it possible to achive fine tuning undreamed of prior to these advancements.

It is still possible to be a car hobbist and enjoy either type. If you prefer not to deal with using a computer to interrogate your car for various diagnostics, then stick to older era cars. If you dont mind using computer to talk to your cars ECU, there are thousands of websites for all kinds of cars that have many many methods and ideas on modifications that include using computers.

If your thinking is to make cars simplier (ie a carburator, spark plugs, distributor)... good luck!

[AtticusG3]

For most of what people are thinking of for this thread you can achieve by replacing your default ECU with a third party product. Changing your timings, mix etc. However the computer systems in many modern cars are far more than Engine Management control. WE have things that affect basic safety with systems like braking. This is a big concern if hobbyists start changing there own settings. Burning out there physical systems by over-stressing, and killing children in motorway crashes.

However, the climate control systems, central closure systems, in-car entertainment, gps, and whatever other flash bits your car has, could all be modified by the likes of the Linux community. The #1 reason this won't happen, companies like GM charge you extra for features like better climate control. When the basic system with a modified OS could do a similar job will you really pay there $5000 extra for this?

I don't think the OP was joking, and I think there is some validity in his not-well-thought-out post. Though I don't like the idea of driving around with people who have altered there mum's Buick's brakes and transmission to squeeze that extra bit of l33tness out of the ****** hardware, I do like the idea of having my cars climate control folding@highway...

[savantelite]

However, the climate control systems, central closure systems, in-car entertainment, gps, and whatever other flash bits your car has, could all be modified by the likes of the Linux community. The #1 reason this won't happen, companies like GM charge you extra for features like better climate control. When the basic system with a modified OS could do a similar job will you really pay there $5000 extra for this?

I don't think the OP was joking, and I think there is some validity in his not-well-thought-out post. Though I don't like the idea of driving around with people who have altered there mum's Buick's brakes and transmission to squeeze that extra bit of l33tness out of the ****** hardware, I do like the idea of having my cars climate control folding@highway...

Thank you for seeing my idea even if I didn't put it the best. I totally agree I wouldn't want people messing around with the safety features in the car. But the Folding@highway sounds awesome.:D

[LowSky]

With this little device I can change most of the default settings on my VW, from the language to light settings, to getting error codes

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/interfaces/uC-med.jpg

[Daremo_06]

With this little device I can change most of the default settings on my VW, from the language to light settings, to getting error codes

http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/interfaces/uC-med.jpg

Same goes for my Audi... and I expect its similar across many other newer makes of car...

[forrestcupp]

I bring this up because I think computers have killed the regular Joe car hobbyist. He doesn't have any control over the car if he can't access the computer. Many times the hobbyist removes the electronics and fixes everything manually:(I kind of figured you weren't joking.


Thank you for seeing my idea even if I didn't put it the best. I totally agree I wouldn't want people messing around with the safety features in the car. But the Folding@highway sounds awesome.:D
You can't have it both ways. If you open it all up, there will be people screwing with things that they shouldn't. If you only open up parts of something, what's the point?

You'll have wannabe hackers that think they know what they're doing totally screwing something up and accidentally killing people. Not everything should be open for everyone to mess with.

[steev182]

You already have the power to tell GM which cars you want, by buying or not buying them. That's why they are bankrupt while foreign car companies are not, because people were not buying their oversized cars, keeping them from making money.

No, that is what got them into this mess already. Then they tried rebranding Daewoo in Europe to become Chevrolet so we had this American brand with a lot of history selling cars that had no place wearing that badge. I see that as a failure and they damaged the general perception of the Chevrolet brand in the UK.

I went to USA last week and went past a Chevrolet dealership in Manchester, Vermont. There was a Camaro on the Forecourt, and it looked beautiful. However, instead of rebadging cheap korean cars, they should've hired European and Asian designers and had them work on cars for the American brands.

Another issue is that apart from in cities, what is the really need for nimble, 4 cylinder cars in the US when Petrol is only $2.60/gallon there!

They rested on their laurels for far too long, American engine design has been lacking since the 60s because there hasn't been a great need to produce lighter/more efficient engines. The way American cars handle has a notoriously bad reputation and I can see why German and Japanese cars sell so well there.

With regard to the computer thing, I think it would be quite cool to be able to have a carputer that controls all of these things. maybe you could get an arduino or 20 to do the work of the dials if you wanted to achieve this yourself. Or you could just get a newish BMW with iDrive (oops, thats not going to help Government Motors, is it!?)...

[hkgonra]

the op makes an interesting point though, the US government (ie, US citizens) now owns 60% of GM. we should be able to tell GM what kind of cars we want rather than the upper management of GM deciding on what cars to make based on what bribes they get from the oil industry.

Agreed, we want BIG cars for cheap.
Why waste billions every year to develop new models ?
Just keep making silverado's and yukon's the way they are and if anything put R&D money into making them last longer.

[hkgonra]

You already have the power to tell GM which cars you want, by buying or not buying them. That's why they are bankrupt while foreign car companies are not, because people were not buying their oversized cars, keeping them from making money.
Um...No , they are bankrupt due to ridiculous union contracts and ridiculous federal regulations. High gas prices were the final nail in the coffin.

[forrestcupp]

and if anything put R&D money into making them last longer.If they did that, we wouldn't have to keep buying new vehicles on a regular basis. Then they'd have to file bankruptcy again.


Um...No , they are bankrupt due to ridiculous union contracts and ridiculous federal regulations. High gas prices were the final nail in the coffin.
While the union contracts may seem ridiculous compared to the benefits and wages of foreign auto makers, that was actually only a very small part of their problem.

The problem was mostly unwise business decisions wasteful spending and not listening to the consumers wishes. They were slow to action, and it burnt them.

I know that unions need to make sacrifices sometimes. But when a worker has earned $50,000/year for a lot of years and has already bought a house and vehicles and has built a life that wisely fits into their budget, is it really fair or conceivable to expect them to suddenly switch to a $28,000/year salary when the real problem is **** poor upper management decisions?

I can go along with the federal regulation thing, but I don't know about gas prices. Gas prices have been low for long enough now that people don't really care anymore (which isn't very wise).

[Skripka]

I know that unions need to make sacrifices sometimes. But when a worker has earned $50,000/year for a lot of years and has already bought a house and vehicles and has built a life that wisely fits into their budget, is it really fair or conceivable to expect them to suddenly switch to a $28,000/year salary when the real problem is **** poor upper management decisions?

I can go along with the federal regulation thing, but I don't know about gas prices. Gas prices have been low for long enough now that people don't really care anymore (which isn't very wise).

Actually,

Your average UAW worker gets $67,000 a year. Yes that is a great deal of money-but that is only the tip of the iceberg. The wage isn't the problem. The problem is the pensions and the benefits...some of which are absurd.

[days_of_ruin]

I wouldn't trust some 14 year old with a high speed connection and not enough outside time to control a 4000lb piece of metal moving at 65mph with me inside of it.

*facepalm* Open Source != Wikipedia.

[forrestcupp]

Actually,

Your average UAW worker gets $67,000 a year.
Which even adds to my point more. I live close to where a Visteon plant used to be. The workers were making those kinds of wages when the plant was bought out. The new employers immediately dropped their wages to around $28,000/year and people couldn't understand why they were whining about it. When you've built your life around years of making a certain wage, it isn't easy to have your pay suddenly cut by more than half.

That's only one example of people I know that have experienced that type of change. We can search the internet and look up figures and statistics, but when it actually happens to people you know and they lose their house over it, it's a different story.

You're right that the pension thing is the biggest problem of the union contracts. But when you've worked your entire life expecting to be taken care of when you're old and all of the sudden they want to take it away, what do you do? Even with the pension problems, the union contracts are still a small part of the overall problem.

On the other hand, I work next to another factory that recently had a strike because they were being greedy and they wanted more during a rough time. That's uncalled for.

I think the ethical thing to do is for the current workers to make sacrifices, but not so extreme that it ruins their lives. But for the company and union to make drastic changes to how they deal with future employees.

[burvowski]

Um...No , they are bankrupt due to ridiculous union contracts and ridiculous federal regulations. High gas prices were the final nail in the coffin.

Other companies have similar union restrictions and they are still going. I'm not saying it's the only reason they went bankrupt, but a large part of it.

[hkgonra]

Actually,

Your average UAW worker gets $67,000 a year. Yes that is a great deal of money-but that is only the tip of the iceberg. The wage isn't the problem. The problem is the pensions and the benefits...some of which are absurd.

What about the workers that are getting paid $67k a year to do nothing ?

[hkgonra]

Other companies have similar union restrictions and they are still going. I'm not saying it's the only reason they went bankrupt, but a large part of it.

Other whole industries have been put out if business thanks to greedy unions. Look at the steel industry. My father, both grandfathers and most of the people's parents I grew up with all worked in the steel industry and all watched the unions shut those businesses down and move them overseas.

[Daremo_06]

Other whole industries have been put out if business thanks to greedy unions. Look at the steel industry. My father, both grandfathers and most of the people's parents I grew up with all worked in the steel industry and all watched the unions shut those businesses down and move them overseas.

Not all unions are bad and self-serving. Some actually do represent their members

Like AFSCME for example... as evidenced by this infomercial about them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3mw49mk_x0

;)

[hkgonra]

Not all unions are bad and self-serving. Some actually do represent their members

Like AFSCME for example... as evidenced by this infomercial about them...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3mw49mk_x0

;)

LOL !!!!
Both at the video and for referencing the worst of the worst in unions.

[drascus]

While I think you should be able to totally change and modify the software in the car there is one hitch. GM might not even own that software. It might just be licensed by Microsoft or something like that. the other problem is you would most likely need to put together a software stack for your specific car. and because all the cars with those smart systems tend to be different it's tough to get enough users together for development.

[jdkchem]

the op makes an interesting point though, the US government (ie, US citizens) now owns 60% of GM. we should be able to tell GM what kind of cars we want rather than the upper management of GM deciding on what cars to make based on what bribes they get from the oil industry.

We have been able to tell GM what kind of cars we want since GM came into existence, which is one of the reasons they're bankrupt. Tossing off big oil conspiracies is insipid and ignorant.