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View Full Version : Attention Europeans Brussels is taking away your freedom without giving you a vote.



Shpongle
May 17th, 2009, 09:37 PM
Thousands of people are signing a petition to make sure every citizen has their say on any new European Constitution or Treaty. As you may know, Brussels is trying to take away our freedom and create a new, unelected European President without even giving people a vote. I just signed the petition. Will you take a moment and join me?

Please sign the petition today http://www.libertas.eu/index.php?option=com_chronocontact&chronoformname=emailcamp001&s=IE&l=en&template=blank&gclid=CLzj786ZxJoCFYYVzAodHmCOsQ. Thank you.

koenn
May 17th, 2009, 09:43 PM
I!m not aware of any plans to have a European Presidency, let alone an unelected one.
Sources ?

spongypants23
May 17th, 2009, 09:51 PM
I've never really liked the EU. I'm all for cooperation between nations, but I think the EU has gotten out of hand.

BuffaloX
May 17th, 2009, 09:57 PM
I haven't heard of this either.

What would be the function of this president?
Why would anybody give any merit to anything coming from a president not elected by the people?

Shpongle
May 17th, 2009, 10:00 PM
I!m not aware of any plans to have a European Presidency, let alone an unelected one.
Sources ?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/02/AR2009010202088.html

MadCow108
May 17th, 2009, 10:02 PM
well the president is elected by the council of the eu which is indirectly voted by the elections in the memberstates.
So its not that the voter has no choice.

There isn't much change from the current system except the council is going to have a head now.

Here's information about all the coming changes (if they ever get ratified):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lisbon

michaeldt
May 17th, 2009, 10:02 PM
I!m not aware of any plans to have a European Presidency, let alone an unelected one.
Sources ?

Indeed. Although whispers of such a proposal went around a few years ago, many countries stated they were opposed to such an idea.

My guess is that this is just a scare tactic to get people to sign the petition, which conveniently has a box at the bottom which says "Sign-up for updates". So basically, get people to sign the petition, hope they all don't untick the box, then spam them with propaganda.

If it wasn't for this little part of the petition, I might have thought it was genuine, but I think it's just an email address harvesting attempt.

Shpongle
May 17th, 2009, 10:09 PM
yea , it seems like that, but to be honest here in Ireland they're the only party actually that appear to be addressing the needs of the people, especially job creation , the unemployment list just keeps on growing & instead of lowering inflation they increase taxes and cut public spending. also they are charging college fees again preventing people from education and putting others in debt!!, like our economy is a joke let alone our current government!, we be better off run by monkeys, seriously the amount of money that our government has wasted!, and now they're taxing us left right and center, good thing iv no windows license fees to pay!):P

The Toxic Mite
May 17th, 2009, 10:21 PM
Signed the petition! :D

michaeldt
May 17th, 2009, 10:22 PM
yea , it seems like that, but to be honest here in Ireland they're the only party actually that appear to be addressing the needs of the people, especially job creation , the unemployment list just keeps on growing & instead of lowering inflation they increase taxes and cut public spending. also they are charging college fees again preventing people from education and putting others in debt!!, like our economy is a joke let alone our current government!, we be better off run by monkeys, seriously the amount of money that our government has wasted!, and now they're taxing us left right and center, good thing iv no windows license fees to pay!):P

Sounds a lot like the UK. Unfortunately, it's easy for those not in power to have a go at those who are. Of course, doesn't mean those in power are right, just that sitting on the sidelines pointing out faults and making promises is easier than actually doing those things. Over here we have Labour fumbling the ball while the Conservatives point and laugh and make empty promises. But as you can see from the expenses scandal in the news, they're all just as bad as each other.

Although given that Libertas means liberty, having that tick box pre-checked as the default option seems a bit, I dunno, hypocritical...

"Politicians - representing their own pockets since humans breathed air..." ):P

MadCow108
May 17th, 2009, 10:23 PM
but what does that have to do with blocking the long neccessary reform of the eu?
we need a unified representation for foreign afairs.
we need to get rid of this complete arbitrary 6 month cycle in presidency.
(As you see we already have a near unvoted president. even worse the president is determined by a single country.)
we need a more democratic vote distribution in the council.
and so on.

You should look at the points in the new treaty and look why they are in there.
If you really prefer the old system or see flaws in the new one then you can vote no, but not if you are just unsatisfied with your local goverment.

koenn
May 17th, 2009, 10:32 PM
yea , it seems like that, but to be honest here in Ireland they're the only party actually that appear to be addressing the needs of the people, especially job creation , ....
I wouldn't put my trust in a party that uses scare tactics and twists the truth the way these guys do. I looked at their website and its rather shallow - the gnu website has more substance.
Ireland may have its share of touble, but keep your head together and don't just run to anyone that promises they'll fix everything for you.

Shpongle
May 17th, 2009, 10:36 PM
I wouldn't put my trust in a party that uses scare tactics and twists the truth the way these guys do. I looked at their website and its rather shallow - the gnu website has more substance.
Ireland may have its share of touble, but keep your head together and don't just run to anyone that promises they'll fix everything for you.

yea il have to do a good bit of reading up before i vote!, its just that the other parties have been around for years and have got us nowhere!

thanks for the input guys!

Swarms
May 17th, 2009, 10:41 PM
but what does that have to do with blocking the long neccessary reform of the eu?
we need a unified representation for foreign afairs.
we need to get rid of this complete arbitrary 6 month cycle in presidency.
(As you see we already have a near unvoted president. even worse the president is determined by a single country.)
we need a more democratic vote distribution in the council.
and so on.

You should look at the points in the new treaty and look why they are in there.
If you really prefer the old system or see flaws in the new one then you can vote no, but if just are unsatisfied with your local goverment.

Swarms thanked MadCow108 for this post.

Closed_Port
May 17th, 2009, 10:43 PM
but what does that have to do with blocking the long neccessary reform of the eu?
we need a unified representation for foreign afairs.
we need to get rid of this complete arbitrary 6 month cycle in presidency.
(As you see we already have a near unvoted president. even worse the president is determined by a single country.)
we need a more democratic vote distribution in the council.
and so on.

You should look at the points in the new treaty and look why they are in there.
If you really prefer the old system or see flaws in the new one then you can vote no, but if just are unsatisfied with your local goverment.

Exactly!

billgoldberg
May 17th, 2009, 11:04 PM
I've never really liked the EU. I'm all for cooperation between nations, but I think the EU has gotten out of hand.

Ditto.

And based on the history of our continent, I doubt the EU will last long if it really goes too far.

hatten
May 17th, 2009, 11:08 PM
this is old, it was posted earlier.

ice60
May 17th, 2009, 11:44 PM
this is about the irish vote for the treaty of lisbon.

the treaty has to be ratified by all nation states. there should have been just one round of voting, but first time round the french and dutch voted no, after that other countries didn't vote because only one country needs to vote no for it to be thrown out.

the EU decided that was the wrong result and thought it better to just put it through without voting. but, ireland is the only country that can't allow that so they had to vote, they voted no.

that was the wrong result as far as the EU is concerned so they decided ireland should vote again (that's the 3rd time of voting on something that shoudl have had one vote) and keep on voting until they vote yes.

the treaty is very wrong, i hate the EU more than anything.

Closed_Port
May 18th, 2009, 12:03 AM
the treaty has to be ratified by all nation states. there should have been just one round of voting, but first time round the french and dutch voted no, after that other countries didn't vote because only one country needs to vote no for it to be thrown out.

France and the Netherlands voted on the EU constitution which was dropped after both countries voted no.



the EU decided that was the wrong result and thought it better to just put it through without voting.

The EU can't decide anything in this matters. The national governments can and they are of course bound by the constiution and by votes in parliament. So the democratically elected national governments decided that they wouldn't put up the Lisbon Treaty (which is different from the constitution that has been rejected) for a referendum.



that was the wrong result as far as the EU is concerned so they decided ireland should vote again

Actually its the second time and the Treaty has been changed according to Irish concerns. So what exacty is the problem. Because one version of a treaty was rejected once, it shouldn't be possible to vote on an updated version ever again?



the treaty is very wrong,

Why?



i hate the EU more than anything.
If you really hate the one institution that was vital in bringing this continent a period of peace and prosperity unlike any it had before, you must be out of your mind.

benerivo
May 18th, 2009, 12:21 AM
...Actually its the second time and the Treaty has been changed according to Irish concerns. So what exacty is the problem. Because one version of a treaty was rejected once, it shouldn't be possible to vote on an updated version ever again?...

You tell me what percentage of the Irish population will truely understand the difference between the two versions. And what percentage of these people will actually turn out to vote? The number we get is so abysmally small, i feel sick. Personally i don't like the treaty as i've heard it introduces the death penalty.

ice60
May 18th, 2009, 12:28 AM
France and the Netherlands voted on the EU constitution which was dropped after both countries voted no.i don't know where you're from, but in the uk we had something called the European Scrutiny Committee of the House of Commons, it looked through the old constitution and the new treaty and found "the new Treaty leaves out just two of the old Constitution’s 447 provisions" labour's 2005 General Election manifesto said they'd hold a referendum on the constitution. we haven't had one!



Actually its the second time and the Treaty has been changed according to Irish concerns. So what exacty is the problem. the probelm is this - when you take a nation's sovereign powers to add toward a supranational power the people should rightly have a say. when the UK voted to join europe we were told it had nothing to do with political union what-so-ever, Heath knew that was a lie at the time, we voted on a free-market and not a European supranational state.



If you really hate the one institution that was vital in bringing this continent a period of peace and prosperity unlike any it had before, you must be out of your mind.i'm not out of my mind, the first union was the coal and steel act, that was made to stop germany and france fighting by making them dependent on one another. it should have never gone any farther then that.

the treaty will remove 40 policy vetos for the uk, giving the eu more power of us which the uk people don't want, i think a country knows what's best for it's people and not some foreign minister.

if the treaty goes through there'll be a European Union Foreign Minister, if something serious happened to the uk (or any other country, it's not just the uk, that's just were i'm from) and the EU didn't think it important we'd be impotent to react, only if the whole of the eu thinks it important will there be a reaction.

does no one else love their country? you're happy to be comtrolled by the EU?

for about 17 years now the EU hasn't been able to account for the money it recieves, the money goes in to a black whole, whistleblowers get sacked, ministers get paid twice for travel etc.

i can go on all day, i HATE THE EU lol

i hope it makes sense i haven't read through it

Joeb454
May 18th, 2009, 12:34 AM
Thread Closed - Politics not directly related to FOSS aren't permitted in the Cafe :)