Can we start a movement to buy Linux preinstalled more often?

[aysiu]

if you feel so strongly about it, you could refuse the Windows EULA and claim a refund? No, that's too much trouble for me, thanks. I've read the occasional blog account about that, and it's not what I want to do.

And even though I would definitely prefer OEMs to offer no-OS options instead of only Windows options, my ultimate preference is that they offer Linux preinstalled options. So buying Linux preinstalled options is a great way for me to reinforce that.


When you go to 12" you've lost the only thing that makes a netbook worthwhile, i.e. the portability. Well, I don't necessarily need a netbook per se. As I said before, my Eee PC 701 is currently my main and only computer. I'm flexible. I could use a netbook or I could use a small laptop. What I won't do is buy Windows preinstalled.

[gn2]

What I won't do is buy Windows preinstalled.

Obviously that will seriously limit your options, which is a shame.

[aysiu]

Obviously that will seriously limit your options, which is a shame.
Yes, but that's my choice. I'm not forcing it on anyone else, but it's something that's important to me.

In my mind, there are short-term freedoms and long-term freedoms. Sometimes you have to sacrifice the short-term freedoms to obtain the long-term freedoms.

In the short-term, I gain more choice by being open to buying Windows preinstalled because there are more Windows preinstalled options. In the long-term, the more Linux users buy Windows preinstalled options, the more Windows will be the only available option on most consumer laptops, desktops, and netbooks.

In the short-term, I limit my choices severely by buying only Linux-preinstalled computers. But in the long-term, if enough Linux users by Linux-preinstalled, OEMs will see that as a viable market and make even more Linux-preinstalled options available in the future.

[tbroderick]

You could always buy a monitor and keyboard to use at home. That way you get the best of both, small and light portable on the go and large screen and keyboard at home.

[gn2]

~ it's something that's important to me.~

While I am sympathetic to your ideals on this issue (which as I recall we have discussed before) you are but one consumer among billions.
Unless people organise together to withhold their purchasing power en masse, there will be a minimal effect.

My position is that so long as the Windows EULA allows a refund claim I don't have a problem with purchasing hardware with Windows installed, although I've yet to try making a claim.
Maybe next time.

[aysiu]

I agree with you, but sometimes "organization" comes from exactly these types of conversations. If you see enough people doing small things, you may start thinking it's big enough that if you join it makes a difference.

And really, it doesn't have to be billions just for OEMs to see there is a Linux market out there. It doesn't have to be a dominant market. It just has to exist.

If people want to dual-boot, I can understand them wanting to buy a Windows license, but I wish more of the I'm-just-going-to-wipe-out-Windows-and-replace-it-with-Linux-anyway folks would at least consider the long-term consequences of that trend.

[garythegoth]

I agree with you, but sometimes "organization" comes from exactly these types of conversations. If you see enough people doing small things, you may start thinking it's big enough that if you join it makes a difference.

And really, it doesn't have to be billions just for OEMs to see there is a Linux market out there. It doesn't have to be a dominant market. It just has to exist.

If people want to dual-boot, I can understand them wanting to buy a Windows license, but I wish more of the I'm-just-going-to-wipe-out-Windows-and-replace-it-with-Linux-anyway folks would at least consider the long-term consequences of that trend.

Hmmmm, a barely 1% Linux market against an 80%+ Windows market............tough choice for an OEM..........

[gn2]

Let's get organised then, the numbers of your organisation just rocketed by 100%

It's 23.35 here, so I'm calling it a night, but will be back for more discussion on this issue tomorrow.

[gn2]

Hmmmm, a barely 1% Linux market against an 80%+ Windows market............tough choice for an OEM..........

1% of 300 million PC sales is a very attractive proposition for any OEM.

[aysiu]

If OEMs didn't think there was any money to be gained from preinstalling Linux, they wouldn't have done it in the first place. Remember, Linux doesn't have to outsell Microsoft. It just has to be worth the effort put into selling it (configuration, testing, support, website changes, limited advertising, etc.).

I think you're 100% correct, gn2. If it's to have an effect, it should be a concerted effort, not just a smattering of people here and there. I don't want to twist anyone's arm. If you feel strongly you need an XP license or Vista license or want to dual-boot, then you should buy it preinstalled, and you do what you have to do.

But if someone has a choice between Linux preinstalled and Windows preinstalled, I would strongly urge her to pick Linux preinstalled, even if she plans to install another Linux distro over it. We get enough people doing that, and the OEMs will say "Linux doesn't sell as well as Windows does, but it sells enough to be worth it, so we should keep selling it" instead of "Well, Linux users kept asking for Linux, but when we offered it, they just bought Windows instead and installed Linux for themselves."

Also remember that the monetary gains from Linux don't even have to be direct. Even if they can make a small profit from Linux, the OEMs may have enough collateral to simply have more bargaining power with Microsoft, because right now Microsoft holds all the cards when it comes to hardware-software manufacturer relations. And that might net the OEMs more money too in the long run.

[garythegoth]

If OEMs didn't think there was any money to be gained from preinstalling Linux, they wouldn't have done it in the first place. Remember, Linux doesn't have to outsell Microsoft. It just has to be worth the effort put into selling it (configuration, testing, support, website changes, limited advertising, etc.).

I think you're 100% correct, gn2. If it's to have an effect, it should be a concerted effort, not just a smattering of people here and there. I don't want to twist anyone's arm. If you feel strongly you need an XP license or Vista license or want to dual-boot, then you should buy it preinstalled, and you do what you have to do.

But if someone has a choice between Linux preinstalled and Windows preinstalled, I would strongly urge her to pick Linux preinstalled, even if she plans to install another Linux distro over it. We get enough people doing that, and the OEMs will say "Linux doesn't sell as well as Windows does, but it sells enough to be worth it, so we should keep selling it" instead of "Well, Linux users kept asking for Linux, but when we offered it, they just bought Windows instead and installed Linux for themselves."

Also remember that the monetary gains from Linux don't even have to be direct. Even if they can make a small profit from Linux, the OEMs may have enough collateral to simply have more bargaining power with Microsoft, because right now Microsoft holds all the cards when it comes to hardware-software manufacturer relations. And that might net the OEMs more money too in the long run.

Im well aware about Microsoft holding all the corrupt cards. But I doubt most OEMs are interested in the extra expenditure and infrastructure change it would take to pre-install Linux, when it has such a small target. It would be nice, but it has little real value. You just have to look at Dell in the Uk to see this. They sell 2 different netbooks with Ubuntu/Linux and thats it. When I rang and inquired about the Dell Mini 9, I was told even after asking for the Linux only model, that I should buy the Windows variant, as Linux was a bad choice.....and then they hung up on me when I said I didnt want Windows....>.<

[PuddingKnife]

I like what you've got going here. /interested

[aysiu]

But I doubt most OEMs are interested in the extra expenditure and infrastructure change it would take to pre-install Linux, when it has such a small target. But OEMs do preinstall Linux. HP has a Mini with Ubuntu on it. Dell has a Mini with Ubuntu (among a couple of other Ubuntu models). Asus has Xandros on some of its Eee PCs. Acer has Linpus Linux Lite on its netbooks.

If the effort isn't worth it from the start, why would they start, then?

[aysiu]

By the way, according to an informal poll here (What was preinstalled on your main home computer when you bought it? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1140540)), only a little over 7% of forum members buy Linux preinstalled for their main computers.

About 25% bought XP or Vista and then replaced it with Linux.

And about 25% bought XP or Vista for a dual-boot with Linux.

Almost 35% bought no OS and installed Linux themselves (I'm assuming these are self-built desktops and not laptops or netbooks).

If we could get most of that first 25% (not the dual-booters but the other folks) to buy Linux preinstalled, I think the OEMs would feel it. In the short-term, their buying options would be limited, but in the long-term, it would probably open up more Linux options for future Linux buyers.

[garythegoth]

By the way, according to an informal poll here (What was preinstalled on your main home computer when you bought it? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1140540)), only a little over 7% of forum members buy Linux preinstalled for their main computers.

About 25% bought XP or Vista and then replaced it with Linux.

And about 25% bought XP or Vista for a dual-boot with Linux.

Almost 35% bought no OS and installed Linux themselves (I'm assuming these are self-built desktops and not laptops or netbooks).

If we could get most of that first 25% (not the dual-booters but the other folks) to buy Linux preinstalled, I think the OEMs would feel it. In the short-term, their buying options would be limited, but in the long-term, it would probably open up more Linux options for future Linux buyers.

Yeah and polls are SO reliable.
The pretty painful truth is that the only really useable version of Linux to the average Windows user is the standard GNOME based Ubuntu. Every other distro Ive tried is to happy to recommend to its users;

"Hey want to do xxxx, then use terminal!"

I can just see the dustcloud to 7RC.......

[snowpine]

I bought my refurbished Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu pre-installed. (It came with Windows restore DVDs!) I immediately replaced Ubuntu with a different distro. Does that make me a hero or a traitor? :)

[garythegoth]

I bought my refurbished Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu pre-installed. (It came with Windows restore DVDs!) I immediately replaced Ubuntu with a different distro. Does that make me a hero or a traitor? :)

It makes you individual I guess?

[aysiu]

Yeah and polls are SO reliable. Not all polls are inherently reliable. Nor are they all inherently unreliable. What beef do you have with my methodology? I'm generalizing only for Ubuntu Forums members, and I left an "other" option for those for whom the other options didn't apply. I don't think there was any kind of bias in terms of how I phrased each option.

Can you explain what specific objections you have to the reliability of my poll?

And even better yet, are you trying to say that more Ubuntu Forums members do buy preinstalled Linux? Or that more buy preinstalled Windows?


The pretty painful truth is that the only really useable version of Linux to the average Windows user is the standard GNOME based Ubuntu. Every other distro Ive tried is to happy to recommend to its users;

"Hey want to do xxxx, then use terminal!"

I can just see the dustcloud to 7RC....... I'm not sure what your point is. I'm just hoping we can send a message to OEMs that we do want Linux preinstalled options, and that selling those will be worth it.


I bought my refurbished Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu pre-installed. (It came with Windows restore DVDs!) I immediately replaced Ubuntu with a different distro. Does that make me a hero or a traitor? :) See? snowpine here is part of the movement. I bought an Eee PC with Xandros, and I replaced it with Ubuntu. Asus logs a Linux sale for me, even though I'm using another distro.

Once OEMs start saying "Hey, Linux is worth selling," then maybe we can convince them to put normal distros on instead of weird netbook simple interfaces.

One step at a time.

[Brainy142]

I bought my refurbished Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu pre-installed. (It came with Windows restore DVDs!) I immediately replaced Ubuntu with a different distro. Does that make me a hero or a traitor? :)


WTF It came with WINDOWS restore DVD's ??????? WTF?

[hansdown]

I would buy a computer with ubuntu preinstalled, but it's very hard.

Bestbuy and walmart both advertise linux preinstalled, but they claim to be out of stock when I've asked for it.

[aysiu]

Well, what I definitely don't want to do is make people feel guilty if they buy Windows preinstalled.

And, again, if you need Windows for Windows-only programs, and you plan to dual-boot, of course you should buy Windows preinstalled.

I'm just asking people to consider joining a movement of folks who will try their best to favor Linux preinstalled options. And in some cases, that favoring may involve a small sacrifice in the short-term.

[Brainy142]

I would prefer to buy a no os installed computer.... It would be cheaper and I can custum talor my linux. (as in not have annoying packages)

[garythegoth]

Not all polls are inherently reliable. Nor are they all inherently unreliable. What beef do you have with my methodology? I'm generalizing only for Ubuntu Forums members, and I left an "other" option for those for whom the other options didn't apply. I don't think there was any kind of bias in terms of how I phrased each option.

Can you explain what specific objections you have to the reliability of my poll?

And even better yet, are you trying to say that more Ubuntu Forums members do buy preinstalled Linux? Or that more buy preinstalled Windows?

I'm not sure what your point is. I'm just hoping we can send a message to OEMs that we do want Linux preinstalled options, and that selling those will be worth it.

See? snowpine here is part of the movement. I bought an Eee PC with Xandros, and I replaced it with Ubuntu. Asus logs a Linux sale for me, even though I'm using another distro.

Once OEMs start saying "Hey, Linux is worth selling," then maybe we can convince them to put normal distros on instead of weird netbook simple interfaces.

One step at a time.

Maybe if the whole nature of Linux wasnt so fragmented, we would maybe have a chance.
When the day comes that we can just adopt 1 or 2 desktops and 1 MAIN base OS instead of Fedora/openSUSE/Ubuntu/Mandriva etc.....then maybe, but until then it AINT gonna happen.....

[snowpine]

WTF It came with WINDOWS restore DVD's ??????? WTF?

I know, that's what I said! The only thing I can think of is that they originally sold it with Windows, then when they refurbished it, they re-imaged the SSD with Ubuntu (or used a different SSD) and re-used the box with the Windows accessories. So I downloaded the Ubuntu restore DVD from the piratebay. Hmmm.

I originally bought an Asus eee with Windows last year (the model I wanted didn't come with Linux as an option), but then I felt guilty, so I gave it away to a Windows user. I guess you could say I turned Windows into free software.

As you can tell I am a morally complex individual. Lots of layers. Like an onion.

[snowpine]

Maybe if the whole nature of Linux wasnt so fragmented, we would maybe have a chance.
When the day comes that we can just adopt 1 or 2 desktops and 1 MAIN base OS instead of Fedora/openSUSE/Ubuntu/Mandriva etc.....then maybe, but until then it AINT gonna happen.....

And who gets to decide? :)

[garythegoth]

I know, that's what I said! The only thing I can think of is that they originally sold it with Windows, then when they refurbished it, they re-imaged the SSD with Ubuntu (or used a different SSD) and re-used the box with the Windows accessories. So I downloaded the Ubuntu restore DVD from the piratebay. Hmmm.

I originally bought an Asus eee with Windows last year (the model I wanted didn't come with Linux as an option), but then I felt guilty, so I gave it away to a Windows user. I guess you could say I turned Windows into free software.

As you can tell I am a morally complex individual. Lots of layers. Like an onion.

If I peel you, will I cry?

[garythegoth]

And who gets to decide? :)
Noone thats the entire problem. I know several people who work for games companies, and the only thing stopping them from releasing some games at least is the fragmented nature as previously mentioned...
My ISP wont give me technical support if something goes wrong, because they dont support Linux. When I asked them if them ever planned to they said emphatically no, because Linux is too splintered.....

[dragos240]

Isn't an EEE machine a netbook?

[garythegoth]

Isn't an EEE machine a netbook?

Yup, but I think they do desktops as well.

[Wiebelhaus]

Obviously that will seriously limit your options, which is a shame.

I never ever ever plan on using windows ever again so why buy something you don't need Like I'm looking to buy a truck but I will never ever ever need to pull a trailer so why would I buy a tundra with a trailer package if I'll never ever use it , your inability to understand buying within your means is a shame.

[aysiu]

I never ever ever plan on using windows ever again so why buy something you don't need I agree. This isn't a movement for those who plan on dual-booting.
your inability to understand buying within your means is a shame. Let's not make this personal, please.

[mamamia88]

i wish i don't want to support an os that i don't use but on a laptop you really have no choice unless you buy a macbook or macbook pro but the macbook is too small for me and the pro is out of my price range

[qamelian]

i wish i don't want to support an os that i don't use but on a laptop you really have no choice unless you buy a macbook or macbook pro but the macbook is too small for me and the pro is out of my price range
Not necessarily. You can support companies like System 76 or Sub500 that do offer Linux pre-installed on laptops.

[mamamia88]

i looked at system 76 they seemed kind of expensive compared to buying a dell and installing ubuntu

[Wiebelhaus]

I agree. This isn't a movement for those who plan on dual-booting. Let's not make this personal, please.

You misunderstood , I was talking to the guy saying that it's a shame not to buy windows , I don't think it's a shame I think it's a shame to buy exceeding your means , I have a strong creed of being pratical and choosing not to pay more for windows is being practical if your never going to use it.

I may not have been clear about precisely what I meant and it sounded mean and for that I apologize.

[Wiebelhaus]

Also Aysiu your PM storage is full , Just a heads up.

[Bölvaður]

I plan on buying one of the ARM notebooks so I'll be part of the movement ^^
And ofcourse like most of us I buy my desktop computer without any os or assemble them.

[LightB]

The only movement that will possibly affect anything to do with this is the movement of money.

[lswartz]

I build my own desktops so I don't (& won't) get counted on the Windows, X, Linux polls. I am looking at replacing Win XP & since my laptop was near failure, a Dell Mini 9 with Ubuntu was the perfect answer. Now I count in the polls :).

[aysiu]

The only movement that will possibly affect anything to do with this is the movement of money.
That's exactly what this movement is.

It's the movement of money toward Linux preinstalled options and away from Windows preinstalled options.

Far more effective than a petition.

[qamelian]

i looked at system 76 they seemed kind of expensive compared to buying a dell and installing ubuntu
Not really. The System 76 components tend to be higher end than the Dells. By the time to upgrade the Dells to the exact same hardware (if it is even an option on some units, the Dell price tends to be the same or sometimes even a little higher, at least in the comparisons I've done.

[LightB]

That's exactly what this movement is.

It's the movement of money toward Linux preinstalled options and away from Windows preinstalled options.

Far more effective than a petition.

Fair enough, but still, if the motivation still amounts to a petition, it's really little different. It's just too much money to go up against, it's like a 100 ft. tidal wave. We should be glad that some budding choices in store PCs have taken shape and keep doing what we do.

[gn2]

I never ever ever plan on using windows ever again so why buy something you don't need Like I'm looking to buy a truck but I will never ever ever need to pull a trailer so why would I buy a tundra with a trailer package if I'll never ever use it , your inability to understand buying within your means is a shame.

But if versions of trucks with the trailer package were cheaper, buying them would be more within your means.

I understand this issue perfectly, it is the reason I'm typing this post on an Asus F9E which I bought with Vista pre-installed for £400 last year with my company bonus.
It was on special offer at the time and then there was no Linux only option under £700.

So why did I buy with Vista?
Simple, at £700 I couldn't afford a 12" Core 2 Duo laptop that came without Windows.

If I look for a similar dual core 12" laptop today, I can find a nice one starting from £515 (http://www.dabs.com/category/computers,laptops-and-pdas,laptops/11105-51500000-46400000), if I don't want Windows installed at all, that price rockets to £1250 (http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/products/laptops/#pidR26906) or £620 if I'm prepared to accept a slightly larger chassis (http://www.linuxemporium.co.uk/products/laptops/#pidR26889).

If we as Linux enthusiasts are to have a better range of hardware choices at competitive prices, we need to make the major manufacturers realise that there's a viable market for hardware without Windows pre-installed.
Aysiu is absolutely correct, we will not do this by purchasing Windows licences.

Quite how we manage to persuade laptop manufacturers to provide better Linux installed models is the tricky part, all suggestions are welcome.

Desktops are much easier, just build from parts.
If you can't build your own, or don't know how, get searching the web, it's really easy once you learn how.

[LowSky]

Plenty of big name companies allow you to buy PC without an OS installed, like DEll, Lenovo, HP. The trick is to call say your a company and tell them you will need to image the PC when it get into the office anyway, so buying a PC with a preinstalled OS is worthless

The thing is you need to call them to do so, you cant order over the internet or in a store. the reason is they dont want consumers to think they purchased a bad computer. I know to us geeks its sounds dumb, but its why people return Linux based computers to stores (examples the $99 Walmart PC, and netbooks)

[Tristam Green]

I'm down with this movement. I purchased my Inspiron 1501 *just* prior to Dell offering Ubuntu pre-installed in 2007, and after having it for only 1.5 months, I installed Gutsy on it, and haven't looked back since.

My next laptop (likely a netbook) will be from System76 more than likely, but if not from s76, I will be buying it with Linux pre-installed.

[monsterstack]

I like this idea. I only buy computers from vendors who allow it to have Linux pre-installed. You have my full support.

[phrostbyte]

You won't get anywhere on this without the governments help, that's just my opinion. That said I am building my next desktop, no Windows license purchased of course. :)

[nathang1392]

Yup, but I think they do desktops as well.

an emachine is a budget desktop pc. an eee is a netbook made by asus

[gn2]

an eee is a netbook made by asus

It's also a touchscreen all-in-one like an iMac (http://uk.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=24&l2=169&l3=0&l4=0&model=2290&modelmenu=1) and a mini-pc (http://event.asus.com/eeepc/microsites/eeebox/en/index.html).

[handy]

Maybe if the whole nature of Linux wasnt so fragmented, we would maybe have a chance.
When the day comes that we can just adopt 1 or 2 desktops and 1 MAIN base OS instead of Fedora/openSUSE/Ubuntu/Mandriva etc.....then maybe, but until then it AINT gonna happen.....

So many of us want Linux to be fragmented; insofar as it is a manifestation of freedom of choice.


Noone thats the entire problem. I know several people who work for games companies, and the only thing stopping them from releasing some games at least is the fragmented nature as previously mentioned...
My ISP wont give me technical support if something goes wrong, because they dont support Linux. When I asked them if them ever planned to they said emphatically no, because Linux is too splintered.....

I expect that eventually there will be an all (or nearly all) distro encompassing common denominator with regard for handling software installation.

It won't infringe on the freedom of choice that the Linux distro's require, but it will create & be a common layer that they can mostly all share, without loosing their individuality with regard to package management.

[sydbat]

You won't get anywhere on this without the governments help, that's just my opinion.I have to agree with this. Also, large companies have to move toward Open Source too.

However, each one of us following the simple idea of buying a pre-made computer without Windows will have an impact...albeit slower than if governments/businesses adopt Linux.

As a related aside - I was visiting my sister-in-law at the hospital yesterday. The hospital system here uses Windows XP-based computers because the proprietary apps require Windows.

As I walked down the hall to her room, I noticed at least 3 of these workstations completely frozen. My first thought was "ha ha...that's what you get for using that system". However, a few seconds later I realized that these frozen boxes were absolutely useless for the medical purposes they are intended for (which is more than simply entering patient data). If an emergency happened near one of these stations (and the frozen boxes were 3 in a row down a long hallway, making the nearest working station almost 40 metres away), the patient(s) could be screwed.

I'm pretty sure there are many apps that are Linux based that could replace the Windows versions...but our government does not want to go "Open Source" because they (falsely) believe that anything free is bad...of course they also complain about not having enough money to pay for various programs and by going open source they could reduce expenditures and spend that saved money elsewhere, but I digress...

[aysiu]

It's not an either/or situation.

This effort would be a worthy one if people actually did it--yes, even just normal consumers, who actually do have monetary spending power over corporations.

Adding in governmental support would be great, too.

Everyone with money to spend has power over corporations. That means home consumers, non-profits, schools, governments... everyone.

[tyroeternal]

I think purchasing for your OS is exactly what people need to start doing. Yes, it is more expensive, but it is going to be the cost we pay until there are more options given.

The problem that many users have is that they are unwilling to put their money where their mouth is. I think that a lot of this stems from the fact that Linux, in general, is free (as in $). What would happen if Ubuntu and all the major distros began charging for use? Would you pay for the freedom, or would you hop off to another OS? Would you donate $50/$25 to upgrade to the next version?

For those of us that think Linux is good and want it to have a place in the market, we need to user our money as consumers to support it when it is offered to us even if it costs more. At the very least, do not support the competition. Even if you plan on rejecting the EULA, (you know you won't actually hassle with that) you still gave [manufacturer] one more reason why they do not need to offer a better Linux solution.

Proud owner of a Pre-installed Linux Netbook (even though other windows netbooks had better features for the price).

[aysiu]

Yes, it is more expensive, but it is going to be the cost we pay until there are more options given. Theoretically, it's not more expensive. But the problem is that OEMs like Dell will sometimes offer promotional discounts for the Windows versions and then "forget" to offer a similar one for the Ubuntu versions, and then for that short time the Ubuntu version (when configured similarly to the Windows version) looks as if it costs more.

See this Idea Storm idea (http://www.ideastorm.com/ideaView?id=0877000000008ncAAA&p=21) for more details. Here's a highlight
Changed status to **IMPLEMENTED**.
On average, comparably configured Ubuntu systems will be about $50 less than Windows systems.

So, really, you should be paying $50 less.

But the real problem is just limited options. If you buy Linux preinstalled, you have maybe 13-20 different systems to pick from, between smaller OEMs and the major players. If you buy Linux, you have probably 100 or more different systems to pick from.

I started my own idea: Implement a system by which Ubuntu systems automatically get promotional discounts their Windows counterparts get (http://www.ideastorm.com/ideaView?id=087700000000C1DAAU)

Unfortunately, few people voted it up.

[Ozor Mox]

I think purchasing for your OS is exactly what people need to start doing. Yes, it is more expensive, but it is going to be the cost we pay until there are more options given.

The problem that many users have is that they are unwilling to put their money where their mouth is. I think that a lot of this stems from the fact that Linux, in general, is free (as in $). What would happen if Ubuntu and all the major distros began charging for use? Would you pay for the freedom, or would you hop off to another OS? Would you donate $50/$25 to upgrade to the next version?

For those of us that think Linux is good and want it to have a place in the market, we need to user our money as consumers to support it when it is offered to us even if it costs more. At the very least, do not support the competition. Even if you plan on rejecting the EULA, (you know you won't actually hassle with that) you still gave [manufacturer] one more reason why they do not need to offer a better Linux solution.

Proud owner of a Pre-installed Linux Netbook (even though other windows netbooks had better features for the price).

Sometimes it isn't even that people don't want to pay a bit extra for a Linux computer... For me, it is that the choice in my country is so weak that I simply cannot find the computer I want. If I don't want to buy Windows, my choice for a laptop is literally a couple of netbooks, some ThinkPads with onboard graphics, or a no OS laptop (for which I'll have to check out the hardware very carefully!). If none of those meet my needs, what should I do? Buy something I'm not completely happy with, or buy something with a Windows licence? I'm sure you'll agree that neither are ideal.

I find myself annoyed that the computer industry has got into this state. Sure, the average user wants no hassle when they buy a computer and a pre-installed OS is essential, but why aren't the people who want to choose their operating system allowed to? Macs I can understand as Apple sell them as an appliance. Other computers though should all be sold with the option of having no operating system or Windows (and in an ideal world, a Linux or two!)

[tyroeternal]

Theoretically, it's not more expensive. But the problem is that OEMs like Dell will sometimes offer promotional discounts for the Windows versions and then "forget" to offer a similar one for the Ubuntu versions, and then for that short time the Ubuntu version (when configured similarly to the Windows version) looks as if it costs more.

Yes, Linux systems *should* be less expensive, and that gives us reason to hope! If we pay the higher prices now, OEM's will come to realize that maybe Linux is a worthy piece of the market and the true savings will fall down to us, finally.

We cannot wait until then to purchase Linux systems, though.

[aysiu]

Yes, Linux systems *should* be less expensive, and that gives us reason to hope! If we pay the higher prices now, OEM's will come to realize that maybe Linux is a worthy piece of the market and the true savings will fall down to us, finally.

We cannot wait until then to purchase Linux systems, though.
Well, I'm saying that Dell's saying they are selling Linux cheaper than Windows already (not that that's what should happen but that's what they think is happening).

[Sewje]

Well its obviously good for the consumer, but the problem is there is not enough demand/fuss for it to make the vendors provide this option.
Since its about making money these days, vendors aren't really going to risk it unless they are forced to comply thru demand and if thats ever going to happen then we as the consumer need to act and ask for these options and refuse to purchase the product unless they had that option.
It really boils down to us as the buyer to make it happen and if its not happening then obviously the majority isn't doing it.

Its a great niche market tho.

[glad.]

Sorry for completely bumping this thread, but just thought that I would agree with this movement.

I would strongly encourage anyone who is going to buy a laptop and just reinstall windows with linux to really try to find a good laptop with no OS or linux pre-installed. It's a matter of pride IMO... Not letting M$ do whatever they please with us. Also, if we do get big companies to offer a wider variety of laptops with linux pre-installed, I think we will find that it will help us a LOT in the long run. We'll end up getting significantly cheaper products and won't have to let Microsoft run the world :( .

That being said, it can be a -very- difficult task to find a decent computer with linux pre-installed. Perhaps it would help if we all compiled a list of the best options?
So far, the Dell Inspiron 15n looks like a great choice. It's very cheap (although the price just got bumped up, you can still get it for quite cheap at the Dell Business section I believe). In fact, an identical computer is for sale with Windows installed, and it's much more expensive-- further proof that in the long run, we will get much cheaper products if we stick to our guns.

[gamerchick02]

I just got two System76 machines.

Both are very good machines; I'd say the quality is better than any Dell or HP I'd find at Best Buy. Unless you count the overpriced Macs...

Granted, I did order it. The Best Buy around here is known for selling crap computers, unless you spend a load of cash. My brother got lucky with his sub-$2k Asus laptop, but that's an anomaly. Granted it has Vista on it...

Amy

[Distorted Humor]

It is also deals with the benfits of Scale.

For example, for $400 I was able to get a nice Toshiba Laptop from bestbuy.
(2 gigs ram, 140-160 gig HD, 64 bit celeron processor, and 15 inch widescreen screen) that came preinstalled with Vista. This might sound crazy, but it cheeper for Toshiba to buy the vista in mass and sell it, then develop the support network to sell Linux Laptops. It would be better for Toshiba perhaps to offer a "blank" Laptop and let the buyer put whatever OS on it as a option, as that does not increase there costs in any way. As say they install it with Slackware, I just going to wipe it and install SUSE or Ubuntu on it.

[cph05a]

Yes, Linux systems *should* be less expensive, and that gives us reason to hope! If we pay the higher prices now, OEM's will come to realize that maybe Linux is a worthy piece of the market and the true savings will fall down to us, finally.

I agree. If you want to support linux, a good way to show it is with your wallet. I noticed something interesting about dell's website. They have the XPS M1330 listed as $849 and the XPS M1330n (which comes with Ubuntu) as $874, which is $25 more than the Windows Vista version. But if you look a little further, you'll see that the M1330n also comes with a much nicer hard drive (320GB at 7200 rpm vs. 250GB at 5400 rpm) and a different processor. If they're charging us extra for Ubuntu, it's not much.

http://www.dell.com/home/laptops#subcats=xpsnb&navla=&a=&page=1

[jskandhari]

Yes Start if for sure but Laymen are least intrested in trying somethign new...

[MasterNetra]

My next labtop I buy will be from System76 with Ubuntu preinstalled. I just wish I could return this current labtop, its not worth the $1,500 it costed...My school rips us off on these apparently I only took it because I needed a laptop, but had no money and this one could be paid through there tuition thing. Its specs are in my sig. :/

[macogw]

i looked at system 76 they seemed kind of expensive compared to buying a dell and installing ubuntu

I did a price comparison about 2 years ago. They were in the same price range. I think System76 was about $50 more, but of course Ubuntu included office suite and everything that Windows doesn't include.


I agree. If you want to support linux, a good way to show it is with your wallet. I noticed something interesting about dell's website. They have the XPS M1330 listed as $849 and the XPS M1330n (which comes with Ubuntu) as $874, which is $25 more than the Windows Vista version. But if you look a little further, you'll see that the M1330n also comes with a much nicer hard drive (320GB at 7200 rpm vs. 250GB at 5400 rpm) and a different processor. If they're charging us extra for Ubuntu, it's not much.

http://www.dell.com/home/laptops#subcats=xpsnb&navla=&a=&page=1

IIRC, the deal when Dell started doing Ubuntu was that the Ubuntu ones, when configured the same, *should* come out to $50 less than the Windows ones. Any time some sale on a specific part has caused these to be reversed, there's been an outcry, and Dell has fixed it immediately.


By the way, guys, System76 isn't the only Ubuntu-based independent OEM. My brother and I have laptops from ZaReason.

[Methuselah]

This isn't an outlandish idea at all, in fact it's completely logical.
I'll probably continue to build desktops from components but my next laptop will definitely have pre-installed linux.
I had resolved this before I even saw this thread.

Really, it just makes sense since I won't have to worry about hardware compatibility and it won't limit my options as far as installing other distros.

[aysiu]

Yes Start if for sure but Laymen are least intrested in trying somethign new... Did you even read this thread before replying to it?

This isn't about getting people who have no idea what Linux is to buy Linux preinstalled. This is about getting people who already use Linux to buy Linux preinstalled, instead of buying Windows preinstalled and then installing Linux over Windows.


I did a price comparison about 2 years ago. They were in the same price range. I think System76 was about $50 more, but of course Ubuntu included office suite and everything that Windows doesn't include. Well, we all know, though, that it's a matter of economies of scale and not the office suite that make the Dell cheaper. System76 is a small business. Dell is a large business. Large businesses can order in bulk.

[Pogeymanz]

I wont be buying a PC with Windows installed again. My newest desktop I bought from Dell with Ubuntu.

In the future, any laptop I buy will likely be from pcsforeveryone.com with no OS, unless Lenovo offers Linux on Thinkpads (didn't they used to do that?). And any desktop, I will build.