If Microsoft really started a aggresive anti-piracy crusade...

[Derek Djons]

An hour ago I came accross a serious discussion going on a Dutch forum. It seems that Microsoft (without really announcing) will introduce a new critical patch which will periodically check the Product Key of a computer in a whole new way.


This package addresses several security issues related to how product keys are validated on the system.

As a byproduct, it will utilize a listing of all legitimate key ranges issued by Microsoft to determine whether a system is legitimate, rather than using a pre-existing equation that was created at product launch.

These key ranges will be accessed periodically while the system is online to determine whether Microsoft has black-listed any keys, or opened up new ranges of valid keys.

If a system is detected as being illegitimate, it will be prevented from logging in under any mode with the following error message.

Windows Product Activation
A problem is preventing Windows from accurately checking the license of this computer. Error Code: 0x80004005

This patch is slated to hit Windows Update on January 10, 2006 as a Critical Update.
KB912494

Effected Binaries:
pidgen.dll
dpcdll.dll
winlogon.exe

The conversation got heaten up because a lot of people don't think Microsoft will do something like this. Of course if they will such a measure would have massive consequences for the present infrastructure of End Users and companies (using illegal versions of Microsofts' Windows XP).

Also a sub-discussion started. Whaf if (over a day) Microsoft would really launch such a patch. There are a few options which would be real:

1. People would just buy Microsoft Windows XP.
2. The more skilled users would create a diversion, shutdown Windows Update or come up with something else.
3. More people would try out Linux.

Of course the first two options have been occuring throughout the whole Microsoft history. But the third option has never occured in large numbers as it would now. What do you think? Is such a radical step expectable of Microsoft? And bearing in mind that Windows is not Linux would such a flood of new users (hoping to find something more close to Windows) be a good thing for the futher development of Linux?

Though maybe not with Windows XP, or this week, month or year. With upcoming and new security methods Linux becomes a more 'catch for the eye'.

[kenweill]

I guess thats because their Windows Update has been cracked.

They used to check your copy of Windows if its really a Genuine one. If you have a pirated copy, you won't be able to get the patch or update.

But there has been solutions about that.

Disabling the javascript for running that Windows Genuine Advantage Check.

I applied it in my windows and it works. Bypassing that process.

Is it okey if reveal the info here of how I did it?

Actually, I found it on the internet. On some forums about cracking windows.

[chimera]

Mr. Gates, I'd like to introduce my boots to your crotch.

[BWF89]

Either Gates or Ballmer once said something like "I would rather people used a pirated copy of an MS product than use a competators product." I think it was followed by "And we'll think of a way to make them pay some day". Probably referring to the Chineese.

[Derek Djons]

I guess thats because their Windows Update has been cracked.

They used to check your copy of Windows if its really a Genuine one. If you have a pirated copy, you won't be able to get the patch or update.

But there has been solutions about that.

Disabling the javascript for running that Windows Genuine Advantage Check.

I applied it in my windows and it works. Bypassing that process.

Is it okey if reveal the info here of how I did it?

Actually, I found it on the internet. On some forums about cracking windows.

True... but that's a get around till the upcoming new patch. And there is always the option that Windows Update will be configured not to apply the patches if the plugin has been disabled. But for now it's just an build-in optional security tool made for (dumb) End Users and companies so they can easily check if they by coincidence are running legal / illegal software.

[kenweill]

Microsoft started requiring users to verifiy their serial number before using Windows Update. This effort to force users to either buy XP or tell them where you got the illegal copy is called 'Genuine Advantage.' It was cracked within 24 hours.

Whatever they do, it will be cracked.

They have that problem before but until now, they never got a solution. Pirated copies always exist.

Last September-October, there has been a raid by the NBI and BIR, in schools and internet cafes using pirated software. Windows.

Since then, a lot of companies migrated to Linux. Internet Cafes use Linux.

But after a week, after the raid, they switch back to Windows. Its because most users play online games. Its a Windows games.

Yes they are aggresive on anti-piracy. But until there only.

[h3xx3r]

Its microsofts funeral, Most distros are ready for noobs to dip their feet now, And it will just push the price up of wind0ws anyway, So where do you think the masses will flock. Linux will surely gain more users, OSx is now running "quite well" on x86 hardware, So theres another option. Maybe apple could ask bill to test thier next OS , give him his next product line. He's a thief at the end of the day and deserves all the bad karma he's getting.
Anyway I think its the chinese we gotta watch for the future, presuming thier government backs off on censorship etc. That may take a revolution though. ( Damn If i said that in China I'd be locked up.)
these are just my opinions so keep yer blowtorches to yourself.!

[Derek Djons]

Anyway I think its the chinese we gotta watch for the future, presuming thier government backs off on censorship etc. That may take a revolution though.

Is there a possibility that they will create a all overtaking OS?

[Sprint]

I think that all Microsoft initiativites of their nelegal software direct to company's (firms). I think so that many company's (small and big) use Windows/Office etc., but don't pay Microsoft. Their can't migration in Linux/Unix because specialists, teaching personnel and support Linux cost very much. Some more I say that business software in many cases orient on Microsoft. And Microsoft try to catch a little piece of cake. It's only business :)
All what I said, in Russia is a big problem!

And some more again! Microsoft is a industrial standard and we can't do this nothing yet.

I don't like Microsoft and don't work in Microsoft. :) I think so. :)

Best regards, Alexey

[Lord Illidan]

If this really had to happen, I doubt a lot would come out of it. Crackers will always find a way to bypass it. Also, I doubt that many people would switch to Linux that easily. Companies, maybe, but even then, some need to run specialist programs like 3DS Max on Windows, at full speed, not with Crossover office.
Gamers will definitely not switch, unless...... they play only Doom 3, Quake 3, UT 2004 and Quake 4... Otherwise, they have extreme computers to get Cedega working accpetably.

[h3xx3r]

Is there a possibility that they will create a all overtaking OS?
Why not, They have many coding /hacking boards. there are already several customised chinese linux distros.
I guess the Chinese have as much right as me or you to code. I use a few Chinese forums & the thing I like about them most is the lack of elitism that exists across them. Try & find a 'nix forum or any western forum without that. You will be hard pressed to do so. Just because they dont broadcast their coding skills to the masses doesn't mean they don't have them. Time will tell I suppose.

[xequence]

Whatever microsoft does to stop piracy, it will be cracked in the scene and wont take long to get to us normal people.

If they somehow make it uncrackable and stopped all pirated windows, i guess id have to just use linux. Or find that windows ME cd that came with my computer -.-



Either Gates or Ballmer once said something like "I would rather people used a pirated copy of an MS product than use a competators product." I think it was followed by "And we'll think of a way to make them pay some day". Probably referring to the Chineese.

Im gonna look on wikipedia for that quote, its great :)

[mstlyevil]

Microsoft has done this in the past with both SP1 and SP2. They periodically take all the blacklisted key codes and add them to the program already in each copy of XP that checks key codes. If yours gets added, you will not be able to log on until you put in a valid key code. This is nothing new. The genuine advantage program has been a failure because it only checks for these blacklisted keys from known widely pirated versions. Microsoft thought that these blacklisted keys would expose and shutdown most of the pirates. They were wrong because many pirated copies were hacked and new keys generated.

It is funny because many people hope that DRM and anti-piracy measures are going to drive consumers to Linux by the boat load. So far that has not been the case because people want to play their games and use photoshop or some other program they just can not live without. None of this stuff is going to drive a mass migration to Linux. You will see a gradual shift of some people moving to dual booting or ditching Windows for Linux. Most people will bend over and take it while saying Linux users do not know what they are missing.

BTW, yes we do know what we are missing. :D

[Stormy Eyes]

Most people will bend over and take it while saying Linux users do not know what they are missing.

BTW, yes we do know what we are missing. :D

I'm not missing much. I already get bent over and screwed by the US government, so why should I let Microsoft have Uncle Sam's sloppy seconds?

[rock freak]

ive been thinking about making that huge step and going onto ubuntu full time recently but havnt made the decssion yet because mainly of the games! i mean no flightsim for linux wot the hell would i do with my self apart from program!!!!

but this is definatly making me consider it more!!

but surly all you have to do is deny winlogon.exe the access to the net and dont download the update and all will be good!!!??????

Ollie

[Ampersand]

ive been thinking about making that huge step and going onto ubuntu full time recently but havnt made the decssion yet because mainly of the games! i mean no flightsim for linux wot the hell would i do with my self apart from program!!!!



Have you tried Flightgear?

[rock freak]

didnt know it existed but i doubt ill be able to fly online with the network im on with it!!!

link me though and ill have a look!!!!!!!!!!!

[zenlunatic]

Their is nothing wrong with Microsoft protecting their work.

[Lord Illidan]

I have no qualms against the Chinese as a people doing an OS but against their government. That kind of dictatorship, especially over the net, is too draconian for my tastes.

[zenwhen]

Mr. Gates, I'd like to introduce my boots to your crotch.

Immature comments like this are why threads like this get backyarded.


I'm not missing much. I already get bent over and screwed by the US government, so why should I let Microsoft have Uncle Sam's sloppy seconds?

Please stay on topic. Your "super bad" anti-establishment attitude has nothing to do with Ubuntu and you can feel free to leave it out of your posts here. It adds nothing.

[benplaut]

here's my thoughts:

Microsoft has the right to prevent piracy of its software. Despite most of us thinking that it's junk software, it's still theirs; they can charge whatever they want for it.

The problem i have with it is when a legal copy of Windows gets blocked, as it did on the family desktop this morning. The computer is now running a pirated key because the valid one didn't work.

Microsoft has every right to put out thsi patch, but they need to test it, first.

/Flame away

[rock freak]

that happened to me the other day im now running a pirate copy now because of it!!

[mstlyevil]

here's my thoughts:

Microsoft has the right to prevent piracy of its software. Despite most of us thinking that it's junk software, it's still theirs; they can charge whatever they want for it.

The problem i have with it is when a legal copy of Windows gets blocked, as it did on the family desktop this morning. The computer is now running a pirated key because the valid one didn't work.

Microsoft has every right to put out thsi patch, but they need to test it, first.

/Flame away

You should have called Microsoft. On the activation screen it gives you the option to activate by phone. when you call you read them a series of numbers posted on the screen and they read back to you a series of numbers to type in. Then your product key is reactivated and you have an official version of Windows once again. I have had to do this a couple of times in the past 2 years I owned my OEM copy of XP Pro. There is no need to obtain a pirate key to continue using Windows when you have a legal one.

[Iandefor]

here's my thoughts:

Microsoft has the right to prevent piracy of its software. Despite most of us thinking that it's junk software, it's still theirs; they can charge whatever they want for it.

The problem i have with it is when a legal copy of Windows gets blocked, as it did on the family desktop this morning. The computer is now running a pirated key because the valid one didn't work.

Microsoft has every right to put out thsi patch, but they need to test it, first.

/Flame away That's the biggest problem. It's possible this will create big scandals. What if it came out that some big company (Say, IBM for the purposes of example) were using pirated copies of Windows? What if, what didn't get out was that Microsoft's authenticity check failed and provided a false negative, claiming that a computer or set of computers had been using a pirated copy of Windows when they had all been properly registered?

I agree, Microsoft is fully within it's rights to make sure people are getting their software via legitimate routes, but honestly, make sure it isn't going to be generating false positives in the meanwhile.

[raghav_p]

Their is nothing wrong with Microsoft protecting their work.

No one is saying that Microsoft shouldn't protect their work. It's just at times it is too hard to keep up with all their "requirements" for updating to them. It's a privacy issue for me. Do I want "Genuine Advantage" tool to scan my computer and see what other software and files I might have? Should I have to report *EVERY* hardware change that I make to Microsoft?

[xequence]

Please stay on topic. Your "super bad" anti-establishment attitude has nothing to do with Ubuntu and you can feel free to leave it out of your posts here. It adds nothing.

I like stormy's hate of the american government and other things similar to it ;)


Microsoft thought that these blacklisted keys would expose and shutdown most of the pirates. They were wrong because many pirated copies were hacked and new keys generated.

It was naive for them to think that. Just about everyone has a windows keygen to make their own unique keys, and programs to change your key are easily avalable.

[awakatanka]

It is there software product so they have the right to do.

But they have to make sure that they don't offend my privacy and only scan for things i agreed on when i installed it. They have no right to scan anything else without a agreeent from me.

If people don't want to pay there software start using linux distro's it has lots of free software and if you realy need windows there are always a version witch doesn't cost much.

[h3xx3r]

here's my thoughts:

Microsoft has the right to prevent piracy of its software. Despite most of us thinking that it's junk software, it's still theirs; they can charge whatever they want for it.

The problem i have with it is when a legal copy of Windows gets blocked, as it did on the family desktop this morning. The computer is now running a pirated key because the valid one didn't work.

Microsoft has every right to put out thsi patch, but they need to test it, first.

/Flame away

I guess it is theirs ... if you condone the way it was born yes. But the truth is . It was stolen. ( Before it was called windows that is. )
& any company has a right to protect thier software. But how many protection wrappers can that software contain before the software itself starts to suffer. Cubase is a perfect example of this. If prices were lowered imo sales would increase across the board, wether it be software, music, or movies. The Linux spirit is a good one but I'm pretty sure one day it will also become commercial . By then though some of us will already be taking the next learning curve. No matter how much we, as consumers complain, Massive corps like microsoft will never listen, The only way to make them listen is migrate to something else, I think those days are much closer now. I've lost count of the amount of people I've turned on to Linux, & because of the heavy customisation of Ubuntu this has become a lot easier.

[alinuxfan]

I understand microsoft is trying to do what is best for their company but this seems like it has the potential to be a huge disaster for them, am I right in that analysis?



I like stormy's hate of the american government and other things similar to it ;)


Well I am many others heare probably don't. People that decide to hate something cause there mommy told them too or because they have no evidence or lack the willpower to find a group with similar interests to make things better are a real drain. If you don't like something try to change it, in a postive way

[mstlyevil]

I like stormy's hate of the american government and other things similar to it ;)

First off you do not hear me or most US citizens coming on the board and slamming the Canadian Government. We have just as much to hate about your govenment, but it is not our place to trounce on the choice of your countrymen. All we ask is the same respect for us and our Government. Second I think you guys are reading too much into Stormy's post. He did not state he hated the government, he just stated he felt the government wields too much power over him as a individual. Lets not turn this thread into a political thread and stay on topic. All you do is create hard feelings when you dis someone elses politics.

Now back to the topic at hand. I agree that Microsoft has a right to protect their software as they wish. On the other hand we as the consumer have the right to not buy the product if they cross the line and invade our privacy. Just as Sony saw CD sales plummet due to bad DRM implemetation the same will happen to Windows if the consumer feels they have crossed the line.

If you are going to say MSFT stole it's ideas then you have to say the same for every other OS on the market. They all copy each other to one point or another. Apple did not create the graphical user interface. They "borrowed" it just like everyone else has. So let's just be intellectually honest on this issue and quit bringing it up as a argument for why MSFT is evil.

[zugvogel]

Just as Sony saw CD sales plummet due to bad DRM implemetation the same will happen to Windows if the consumer feels they have crossed the line.

Yes and No. Obviously by definition, if a company "crosses the line" than the "consumers" move elsewhere. The difference between Sony and Microsoft is the distance to that line. Most people can live without buying a Sony DRM CD, so that line is fairly close. On the other hand, I would expect that the Microsoft line is much much further because most "consumers" don't know any better; they are not aware of the choice or do not want to change from what they know, or lose access to their wma files, etc, so they will put up with more and more that Microsoft throw at them. For this reason, I think MS can do a lot before you notice even a slight change in "consumer" behaviour.

[mstlyevil]

Yes and No. Obviously by definition, if a company "crosses the line" than the "consumers" move elsewhere. The difference between Sony and Microsoft is the distance to that line. Most people can live without buying a Sony DRM CD, so that line is fairly close. On the other hand, I would expect that the Microsoft line is much much further because most "consumers" don't know any better; they are not aware of the choice or do not want to change from what they know, or lose access to their wma files, etc, so they will put up with more and more that Microsoft throw at them. For this reason, I think MS can do a lot before you notice even a slight change in "consumer" behaviour.

I think your post puts that line in perspective. I agree with you the line for MSFT is much further and it would take a lot more to cause a consumer backlash. They have already scaled back TCP and DRM controls for that very reason. I guess they figure if they implement it in small steps over a period of time they will dupe most people into accepting it.

[BSDFreak]

I guess it is theirs ... if you condone the way it was born yes. But the truth is . It was stolen. ( Before it was called windows that is. )

Please expand on this.



& any company has a right to protect thier software. But how many protection wrappers can that software contain before the software itself starts to suffer. Cubase is a perfect example of this. If prices were lowered imo sales would increase across the board, wether it be software, music, or movies. The Linux spirit is a good one but I'm pretty sure one day it will also become commercial . By then though some of us will already be taking the next learning curve. No matter how much we, as consumers complain, Massive corps like microsoft will never listen, The only way to make them listen is migrate to something else, I think those days are much closer now. I've lost count of the amount of people I've turned on to Linux, & because of the heavy customisation of Ubuntu this has become a lot easier.

I agree with most of what you are saying but if you think that Linux even COULD become closed software (commercial as in non-free) then you know absolutely nothing about Linux.

My views on the matter:

1. MS can do whatever they want with it as long as the user agrees to it and the user does this by acknowledging the EULA when installing the OS or any update for the OS, this includes things that i would see as a breach of security.

2. Don't like it, don't use it.

[BSDFreak]

Whatever microsoft does to stop piracy, it will be cracked in the scene and wont take long to get to us normal people.

If they somehow make it uncrackable and stopped all pirated windows, i guess id have to just use linux. Or find that windows ME cd that came with my computer -.-

I absolutely loathe software pirates.

[BSDFreak]

If you are going to say MSFT stole it's ideas then you have to say the same for every other OS on the market.

Thankfully ideas cannot be copyrighted. The only way to "steal" something in the SW world is to use someone elses code, this has, to the best of my knowledge, never been done by MS.

I'd say SCO has a better case against Novell than any company has against MS on that issue and SCO doesn't have a case.

[Mr_J_]

Windows is never going to go hard on anti-piracy for home users everywhere.
It's against their better judgement.

It'll only ever be for show!

They know small home users grow up to use windows because they've always done so.

They're also not stupid. They know people can flock away from stupid products if they want.
They know the situation as well as the rest of us, and they also know they won't be doing themselves a favor for stricking at the home user with anti-piracy.

Most people will; if it happens; just get more pirated copies, or buy. I still say pirates of the software seas will just get better and harder if it happens.

Face it! Linux is a baby in the midst. Barely seen even by the most cunning eyes.

[sumadartson]

Either Gates or Ballmer once said something like "I would rather people used a pirated copy of an MS product than use a competators product."

Quoting this for probably being very true.

MSFT won't ever say this in public, but I actually do think that pirated copies of windows contributed to MSFT's market domination. If Windows would be absolutely unpiratable (is that a word?), less people would be using it. Hence, less network effect for them and more people giving alternative operating systems a chance. This in turn would lead to more developers making games and productivity software for other operating systems, which in turn would lead to a less powerful position for MSFT.

In addition, if someone is familiar with Linux or a BSD from home, they're far more likely to promote it at work, which would lead to less MSFT in the workplace. Familiarity is 80% of vendor lock-in.

So, to get back on topic, they'll probably never do this for the above reasons.

PS
I wonder if it's possible to build a decent (economic) model simulating this process... Probably should a dynamic, deterministic model though, in order to keep it manageable.

[BSDFreak]

Windows is never going to go hard on anti-piracy for home users everywhere.
It's against their better judgement.

It'll only ever be for show!

They know small home users grow up to use windows because they've always done so.

They're also not stupid. They know people can flock away from stupid products if they want.
They know the situation as well as the rest of us, and they also know they won't be doing themselves a favor for stricking at the home user with anti-piracy.

Most people will; if it happens; just get more pirated copies, or buy. I still say pirates of the software seas will just get better and harder if it happens.

Face it! Linux is a baby in the midst. Barely seen even by the most cunning eyes.

It is quite possible for MS to make it so hard to use a pirated version that it's easier to buy it, which MS will eventually do.

The only way to get around it will be to never connect to the internet.

[matiastepli]

I think Microsoft plays a game in which they allow people to use pirate versions of Windows and, at the same time, take some little actions pretending they are fighting against piracy and stuff, so to keep more or less happy to those who have legal copies of their products. It's evident for me that they take a lot of advantage from the people who uses illegal copies of Windows. Therefore, I don't think Micorsoft is acting (and it seems to me they wii not) seriously against piracy, not because they aren't capable of, but because they really don't want to. It's a bussniess matter.

However, I am interested and expecting to see what will happen with DRM (well, we're already seeing something related with this), "trusted computing" and stuff.


All that was IMHO though.




Originally Posted by Mr_J_
Windows is never going to go hard on anti-piracy for home users everywhere.
It's against their better judgement.

It'll only ever be for show!

They know small home users grow up to use windows because they've always done so.

They're also not stupid. They know people can flock away from stupid products if they want.
They know the situation as well as the rest of us, and they also know they won't be doing themselves a favor for stricking at the home user with anti-piracy.

Most people will; if it happens; just get more pirated copies, or buy. I still say pirates of the software seas will just get better and harder if it happens.

Face it! Linux is a baby in the midst. Barely seen even by the most cunning eyes.


I saw this post just after writting my opinion. Anyway, I agree with this. It's a kind of Microsoft show.

Regards!.

[BSDFreak]

I think Microsoft plays a game in which they allow people to use pirate versions of Windows and, at the same time, take some little actions pretending they are fighting against piracy and stuff, so to keep more or less happy to those who have legal copies of their products. It's evident for me that they take a lot of advantage from the people who uses illegal copies of Windows. Therefore, I don't think Micorsoft is acting (and it seems to me they wii not) seriously against piracy, not because they aren't capable of, but because they really don't want to. It's a bussniess matter.

However, I am interested and expecting to see what will happen with DRM (well, we're already seeing something related with this), "trusted computing" and stuff.


All that was IMHO though.

I don't agree, the latest "genuine advantage" deal made several people go without updates for quite a while, it's still in effect if you want to download any beta software (and will eventually be required for that software to even run).

MS will let people use pirated software as long as doing anything about it means that it would also affect legal users too much, but something along the lines of what Quake 4 is using to check the code against the net will eventually come, even for windows, you can play Quake 4 by blocking it in your firewall and you'll probably be able to block that service for windows in your firewall too, however, it WILL be a hassle since things like MSN, IE, MS antispyware and so on will require it to be turned on.

I don't know if you'd consider that being serious but i certainly do.

[xequence]

I absolutely loathe software pirates.


Heh, I cant change that. Ive never bought software and I dont plan to.

[Derek Djons]

I don't agree, the latest "genuine advantage" deal made several people go without updates for quite a while, it's still in effect if you want to download any beta software (and will eventually be required for that software to even run).

MS will let people use pirated software as long as doing anything about it means that it would also affect legal users too much, but something along the lines of what Quake 4 is using to check the code against the net will eventually come, even for windows, you can play Quake 4 by blocking it in your firewall and you'll probably be able to block that service for windows in your firewall too, however, it WILL be a hassle since things like MSN, IE, MS antispyware and so on will require it to be turned on.

I don't know if you'd consider that being serious but i certainly do.

What you say is true. The next question which I began thinking about was... if Microsoft already knew beginning with Windows 98 that piracy was very possible and it would only grow, why didn't they acted?

It's obvious that companies with relative simple products can adept very quickly. But still... if Microsoft has so many developers and it has the option to buy out other companies why not deal with the problem.

1. Is Microsoft a to complex organization for such (maybe complicated) problems to solve them?

2. Is it technically impossible?

3. Do they have some dark motives?

In my opinion Microsoft isn't a complex organization. The company has been able to quickly establish taskforces which worked on all kinds of projects. If a organization is too static it couldn't respond that fast to changes in the market... something Microsoft can (if it wants).

Also technically it's possible to implement 'die hard' security which makes it for people very hard to use a pirated version. For example numerous games have been outfitted with Starforce 3. It has been cracked. But in order to use it people have to disconnect there optical physically. So screwing with your pc to play a game, having to reconnect your opticals all the time isn't really a joy. So what I mean is, technically it's possible to make it as hard as possible to use or make pirated versions.

On the other hands, their lack attitude could also be pure economical. Microsoft makes already enough profit out of Windows. But killing piracy with a single shot might cause a economical disaster. Though by the law the aren't responsible for users with pirated Windows versions economy could face an gigantic breakdown as production, managing and all kinds of things are being done with computers. They wouldn't make themselves popular.

[BSDFreak]

Heh, I cant change that. Ive never bought software and I dont plan to.

Well i don't like thieves regardless if they steal intellectual property or other property.

Here's hoping you get a nice trojan in your next downloaded warez package. (if you do i just KNOW you will rant and rave about how bad MS is and how you are happy you didn't pay for it and the irony will be thick enough to cut with a knife)

[xequence]

Well i don't like thieves regardless if they steal intellectual property or other property.

Here's hoping you get a nice trojan in your next downloaded warez package. (if you do i just KNOW you will rant and rave about how bad MS is and how you are happy you didn't pay for it and the irony will be thick enough to cut with a knife)


Taking a CD from a store is stealing. Downloading an album illegally of the internet isnt, its copyright infringement.

And you know I wont do that. Sure, im happy I didnt pay for it, obviously. If I would rather pay for it, id pay for it. And another thing, noone puts viruses in torrents or anything. Why would they? The people uploading torrents are also people who download torrents. Its just ruining something for yourself if you put a virus in there.

[zenwhen]

Well i don't like thieves regardless if they steal intellectual property or other property.

Here's hoping you get a nice trojan in your next downloaded warez package. (if you do i just KNOW you will rant and rave about how bad MS is and how you are happy you didn't pay for it and the irony will be thick enough to cut with a knife)

Please stop playing internet morality police. It doesn't make you a super cool wild west Sheriff.

These threads always get people far too high-strung. I don't understand why people cannot just act civil. If xequence says he doesn't want to pay for software and doesn't tell everyone else how to pirate it, that is his business.

</moderator>

I hope Microsoft does unleash this attack on piracy.

If it has no effect on their paying customers, then they are making a good move. If everyone who bypassed the required payment to use their OS is prevented from doing so and in the process loses all of the data they stored and created while using their stolen OS, I will smile.

The GPL and other free licenses give us a right to the software that is licensed under that license. We do not have a right to Microsoft's operating system, a right to copyrighted music, or a right to movies before they come out in the theaters.

People seem to forget that they are not owed access to all digital and analog media, creations, and IP.

Microsoft is making a good business move. People who deserve it are going to be inconvenienced. Perhaps they will pay for the software they have been stealing for so long.

[BSDFreak]

Taking a CD from a store is stealing. Downloading an album illegally of the internet isnt, its copyright infringement.

We were talking about software here, were we not? You do not have the right to use the software if you did not purchase it, it is theft, you are stealing someones intellectual property.

You don't have the right to copy and spread it either whether you bought it or not because you did NOT buy the software in itself, you bought the right to use it in the way described in the EULA, the software itself belongs to the owner, in the case of XP it's MS that owns the software, even the copy i bought.


And you know I wont do that. Sure, im happy I didnt pay for it, obviously. If I would rather pay for it, id pay for it. And another thing, noone puts viruses in torrents or anything. Why would they? The people uploading torrents are also people who download torrents. Its just ruining something for yourself if you put a virus in there.

If you think that people wouldn't put viruses in the software you download via a torrent then you are stupider than i originally thought.

THINK McFly!

Why would anyone make e-mail viruses when they are using e-mail themselves, why would anyone create worms when they are using the internet themselves, why would people uploading torrents put viruses in them when they are downloading torrents themselves...

I'm thinking about using a massive collection of viruses, trojans and worms, infect fake exe's and spread them across every torrent site i know of, it's almost guaranteed that one of them will slip through your protection.

[MetalMusicAddict]

And another thing, noone puts viruses in torrents or anything. Why would they?
This is not totally true. The RIAA and MPAA also put up or have hired people to put up false and dangerous torrents.

What do they care if you get something while "infringing" one copyrights.

On topic.

I think it will just turn some people to linux and some people to crack whatever is locking them out of whatever copy of windows they are using.

For me, I will never buy another copy of windows. I bought my copy of Pro with and employee discount for $60 (US). I havnt had any hastle havint it on 3 machines in my home. Soon it will only be 2. Im taking it off my server when Dapper comes out.

[BSDFreak]

Please stop playing internet morality police. It doesn't make you a super cool wild west Sheriff.

Excuse me? I'm playing internet morality police by arguing that what is illegal IS in fact illegal? That theft of intellectual property IS in fact theft?

Well ok then, i won't argue against software piracy again since the mods don't care about it.

[zenwhen]

Excuse me? I'm playing internet morality police by arguing that what is illegal IS in fact illegal? That theft of intellectual property IS in fact theft?

Well ok then, i won't argue against software piracy again since the mods don't care about it.

This is not the place to tell him you hope he gets a Trojan. Debate against piracy all you want but be mature about it.

[super]

i gotta agree with xequence on this one one. if it happens (which i think is unlikely) it will be less than a week before someone cracks it.

true, technologically they have the ability to stop piracy right now but the total benefit in the long run will not make it financially worthwhile.


Excuse me? I'm playing internet morality police by arguing that what is illegal IS in fact illegal?
you mean, arguing what's illegal where you live. fortunately (or unfortunately) we don't all live in the same place. :cool:


It doesn't make you a super cool wild west Sheriff.
nope! that's reserved for me. :razz:

but i can sympathize with microsoft tho.
few weeks ago my computer took some crack and flipped out. so i had to buy something temporary to use while i had it fixed. i went to the computer store in my area and got an old p3 for CAD$70. went home and guess what i found in the cdrom drive? a burnt cdrom with norton ghost and a winxp (with sp2) ghost image. :p

of course i promptly destroyed it! :rolleyes:

[prizrak]

I think many people forget that piracy is generally only a problem in the so called "undeveloped" countries. The percentage of pirated software in the Western world is like 5-10% (depends on the source). Most people here buy computers from Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc... they come with Windows on them and in many cases with Office and some other software you get cuz the OEM was "nice" enough to strike a deal with the developer.
All of the anti-piracy stuff that MS does is aimed at countries such as China and Russia where even a store bought computer is highly likely to have a pirated version of Windows. You have to realize that absolute majority of the users in the West will never notice any anti-piracy initiatives by MS (unless it will be really broken). The impact will be on countries where the general populace cannot afford the licensing costs but the pirates will always find ways around it.
I seriously doubt that Linux will benefit much from MS anti-piracy initiative the home users in the West already bought Windows. The users in not so wealthy countries will get pirated Windows that has been cracked by someone with either the comps they buy in the store or on a pirate market. Additionally most of the countries with really high piracy don't have a very widespread broadband internet making the inability to get patched alot less serious than it is with xDSL and cable.
What I hope for is for the governments of the aforementioned coutnries to recognize that Linux would benefit them alot more (like the Chinese did) than Windows and put incentives in place for people to learn it.

[BSDFreak]

i gotta agree with xequence on this one one. if it happens (which i think is unlikely) it will be less than a week before someone cracks it.

True, but getting updates by downloading relevant updates by hand and installing them and keeping it up to date will lead to more people buying it instead, which is the point.


true, technologically they have the ability to stop piracy right now but the total benefit in the long run will not make it financially worthwhile.

Short term it's not financially worthwhile, long term it probably is though.



you mean, arguing what's illegal where you live. fortunately (or unfortunately) we don't all live in the same place. :cool:

I'm Swedish, i am aware of NO country where software piracy is legal.

[BSDFreak]

This is not the place to tell him you hope he gets a Trojan. Debate against piracy all you want but be mature about it.

But this IS the place to argue *for* software piracy? On a forum which represents a real alternative to piracy?

It is very likely that he will get a trojan when he's downloading warez and he deserves to get one for stealing.

I coul have said that i hope he gets caught and fined for it instead since what he's doing is illegal, would that be more "mature"? I didn't say that because the likelyhood of that happening is extremely small compared to getting a trojan with your stolen software.

[aysiu]

I'm Swedish, i am aware of NO country where software piracy is legal. Even China?

[h3xx3r]

Please expand on this.

Pirates of the silicon valley. Although not terribly well made & not 100% will more than explain this.
The movie is historically inaccurate. Nevertheless, it manages to capture the essence of how much of modern computing came to be: the cluelessness of Xerox about what its own computer scientists were doing; Steve Jobs' artistic vision at Apple; and Bill Gates' ruthless business practices, The film tells of Steve w asking Bill g to beta test some code for him, it turns out that much of this code apeared in windows. Anyway This movie has been discussed in many places . even By Steve Jobs & Steve Wozniak, on film on www, You say you hate piracy- thieves- however you want to put it, but this story clearly shows BG must have been the original pirate. All the info used for the film "Cannot" be false there must be an element of truth in there somewhere.Even the apple history museum site tells of the use of apple ideas in second version of Windows, version 2.03.
To me thats blatent "Piracy".


I agree with most of what you are saying but if you think that Linux even COULD become closed software (commercial as in non-free) then you know absolutely nothing about Linux.


I've actually been using Linux for a long time, Am comfortable with it, and I understand, Linux "IS ONLY A KERNEL" :) We Have non free applications etc , This will surely evolve over time, Linux's future may well be determined by its popularity, For instance ,say Linux ( We'll take Linux as meaning a full distro here so you dont get confused) Becomes market leader and its sitting on 300million desktops over the planet, can you seriously be so naive to think it wouldn't have been infiltrated by the corporations by then. Such a massive userbase would never be allowed to grow without being infiltrated by commercialism. I'm in no way saying next year next ten, I don't have a timescale it would all be determined by Popularity. BUT. I think it will happen one day. Remember the recent linus T- kernel sellout news stories. Well what if that had gone the other way & he did sell out.(thank god it was all hype) ?? I'll tell you . No More Linux. ( All hypothetical of course. but what if.)It wouldn't have been the end of the world though It would have been pretty nasty to have to sit on BeOS again though. ( Is it still around? )But an alternative would have turned up. The future is "A Very Long Time".

My(your) views on the matter:

1. MS can do whatever they want with it as long as the user agrees to it and the user does this by acknowledging the EULA when installing the OS or any update for the OS, this includes things that i would see as a breach of security.

2. Don't like it, don't use it.


:D I DON'T So I guess I'm gonna be safe from your "Mega Troj-Vir Torrent Pack" Unless you are going to target Linux stuff :)
Anyway peace out n relax a little, No matter how much you rant or I moan There will always be pirates, Always be Greedy corps skinning us alive, and low life trying to steal our precious information. I guess it keeps us alert and on our toes keeping one step ahead of them, All good fun.
:rolleyes: I have used windows in the past but I found it just sent my brain to sleep. I don't like to be nursemaided.

[mstlyevil]

Even China?

I read in the news that China has passed anti piracy laws. The problem is that when 1 in every 6 people live in your borders it gets hard to police small matters like piracy. They are negotiating a deal with the WTO and the US to start cracking down on piracy in their borders. But with China being a closed government it may be hard to see what they are really doing to combat the problem.

For those of you that live in Canada. Piracy is definitely illegal there. Just walk in the local police station and announce you are a software pirate and see how fast the cuffs are put on you.

[BSDFreak]

Pirates of the silicon valley. Although not terribly well made & not 100% will more than explain this.
The movie is historically inaccurate. Nevertheless, it manages to capture the essence of how much of modern computing came to be: the cluelessness of Xerox about what its own computer scientists were doing; Steve Jobs' artistic vision at Apple; and Bill Gates' ruthless business practices, The film tells of Steve w asking Bill g to beta test some code for him, it turns out that much of this code apeared in windows. Anyway This movie has been discussed in many places . even By Steve Jobs & Steve Wozniak, on film on www, You say you hate piracy- thieves- however you want to put it, but this story clearly shows BG must have been the original pirate. All the info used for the film "Cannot" be false there must be an element of truth in there somewhere.Even the apple history museum site tells of the use of apple ideas in second version of Windows, version 2.03.
To me thats blatent "Piracy".

If it were piracy they wouldn't have gotten off, the truth is that MS and HP had aquired a licence to the things they used. http://www.cyberlaw.com/cylw994.html


I've actually been using Linux for a long time, Am comfortable with it, and I understand, Linux "IS ONLY A KERNEL" We Have non free applications etc , This will surely evolve over time, Linux's future may well be determined by its popularity, For instance ,say Linux ( We'll take Linux as meaning a full distro here so you dont get confused) Becomes market leader and its sitting on 300million desktops over the planet, can you seriously be so naive to think it wouldn't have been infiltrated by the corporations by then. Such a massive userbase would never be allowed to grow without being infiltrated by commercialism. I'm in no way saying next year next ten, I don't have a timescale it would all be determined by Popularity. BUT. I think it will happen one day. Remember the recent linus T- kernel sellout news stories. Well what if that had gone the other way & he did sell out.(thank god it was all hype) ?? I'll tell you . No More Linux. ( All hypothetical of course. but what if.)It wouldn't have been the end of the world though It would have been pretty nasty to have to sit on BeOS again though. ( Is it still around? )But an alternative would have turned up. The future is "A Very Long Time".

What would happen if GPL code got released in a CS version? It's not like it hasn't happened before. There will be a fork where one version will be CS and the other will continue to be GPL'd. So what would happen if Linux decided to sell the copyright for a new version to anyone is simply that there would be two versions of the kernel.

There isn't ONE bit of Linux/gnu software that is irreplacable with another bit, you can use OpenSolaris kernel with gnu or with other FOSS programs.

Remember what happened when XFree86 got a more restrictive licence? It was forked and today everyone uses the GPL'd xorg fork instead.

So Linux cannot and will not every go commercial as in closed development since there would be no profit in that, people would use the last GPL'd version and work from that towards a new version and the CS fork would be forgotten withing six months.



:D I DON'T So I guess I'm gonna be safe from your "Mega Troj-Vir Torrent Pack" Unless you are going to target Linux stuff :)
Anyway peace out n relax a little, No matter how much you rant or I moan There will always be pirates, Always be Greedy corps skinning us alive, and low life trying to steal our precious information. I guess it keeps us alert and on our toes keeping one step ahead of them, All good fun.
:rolleyes: I have used windows in the past but I found it just sent my brain to sleep. I don't like to be nursemaided.

That wasn't directed at you, it's just my opinions on the matter as a whole.

[BSDFreak]

Even China?

Yes, search for Copyright Society of China and the Anti-Piracy Committee.

[prizrak]

There was no point for MS to pirate Apple's source to create a GUI. Remember there were GUI's other than Apple for DOS before Windows was ever released. It was an idea and it needed a hardware capable of running it, by the time MS released Windows it had enough money to hire programmers capable of writing the code needed for it.
The only ones who would really have some kind of case against MS on the whole GUI front would be IBM since MS used their partnership while creating OS/2 (still a great OS, sadly discontinued) to create Windows. Although I'm not sure on the timeline whether it was Win95 or the very first Win.
Also MS couldn't have possibly used Apple's source, the systems are way too different, the modifications required would be as extensive as undertaking a task of developing from scratch.

[h3xx3r]

If it were piracy they wouldn't have gotten off, the truth is that MS and HP had aquired a licence to the things they used. http://www.cyberlaw.com/cylw994.html



What would happen if GPL code got released in a CS version? It's not like it hasn't happened before. There will be a fork where one version will be CS and the other will continue to be GPL'd. So what would happen if Linux decided to sell the copyright for a new version to anyone is simply that there would be two versions of the kernel.

There isn't ONE bit of Linux/gnu software that is irreplacable with another bit, you can use OpenSolaris kernel with gnu or with other FOSS programs.

Remember what happened when XFree86 got a more restrictive licence? It was forked and today everyone uses the GPL'd xorg fork instead.

So Linux cannot and will not every go commercial as in closed development since there would be no profit in that, people would use the last GPL'd version and work from that towards a new version and the CS fork would be forgotten withing six months.




That wasn't directed at you, it's just my opinions on the matter as a whole.

O.K. I give up on this one , I have a friend like you & he annoys the hell outta me too, Whatever anyone says you would pull it apart. There is no other view except yours, I wonder how many times you heard this before. Arrogant springs to mind.
Dude I think you need to lay off the steroids. :D
Incidently There is ALREADY an alternative Kernel To Linus's. ( But since you carry a handle like yours you will already know this. )
This is all I have to say on this for now, I'm returning to lurking , Its this elitism & Inflated egos that keep the normal user out of Linux boards.
Have a nice day n leave them roids well alone :D
I'm outta here

[BSDFreak]

O.K. I give up on this one , I have a friend like you & he annoys the hell outta me too, Whatever anyone says you would pull it apart. There is no other view except yours, I wonder how many times you heard this before.

Excuse me but you presented your views and i presented mine, i included links and logical reasoning to explain why i hold these views.


Arrogant springs to mind.

So you say and continue with this little gem:


Dude I think you need to lay off the steroids. :D

"ah, bodybuilder, uses steroids, is is arrogant, roid rage, yap, yap, yap, stereotype, stereotype, stereotype"


Incidently There is ALREADY an alternative Kernel To Linus's. ( But since you carry a handle like yours you will already know this. )

There are already distributions built around the OpenSolaris kernel, which i said in my previous posts., the BSD kernel flavours wouldn't be all that great in a linux distro


This is all I have to say on this for now, I'm returning to lurking , Its this elitism & Inflated egos that keep the normal user out of Linux boards.
Have a nice day n leave them roids well alone :D
I'm outta here

It's elitist of me to present my views in an opposing argument and provide you with examples? Well, personally i just think you realize that you have lost this argument and it makes you all teary eyed so you resort to personal accusations and bullcrap.

I'll tell you what, if you lay off the crack i'll continue to be all natural.

[Stormy Eyes]

He did not state he hated the government, he just stated he felt the government wields too much power over him as a individual.

Thanks, but what I actually said was that since Uncle Sam is already screwing me, I don't need to get screwed by Microsoft as well. :)

[mstlyevil]

Thanks, but what I actually said was that since Uncle Sam is already screwing me, I don't need to get screwed by Microsoft as well. :)

Yeah I know but I had to put it in a different context for the sake of having certain people understand that you were not Government bashing in your post, you were just MSFT bashing. I just didn't want the thread getting sidelined into a political debate.

[xequence]

If you think that people wouldn't put viruses in the software you download via a torrent then you are stupider than i originally thought.

I think we are not talking about the same thing here though. Let me explain this. You know how some torrent sites are public and some private? Its hard enough to get an invitation to some of the private ones, and if anyone puts viruses on any of them people will comment on it. The virus person will get their account deleted. It will be now much harder to get in again to that site.



It is very likely that he will get a trojan when he's downloading warez and he deserves to get one for stealing.

There is an extremly small chance of me getting a virus from anything like that, except one exception: Youll probably get a virus from most public crack sites.