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irv
April 27th, 2009, 04:40 PM
Windows 7 to have an 'XP mode'
Check out these links:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10227533-56.html
http://www.winsupersite.com/win7/xp_mode_pre_shots.asp
http://windowsteamblog.com/blogs/business/archive/2009/04/24/coming-soon-windows-xp-mode-and-windows-virtual-pc.aspx
With the release of Ubuntu 9.04 who would want to use Windows 7? I installed 9.04 on my laptop this past week and I love it.

Mazza558
April 27th, 2009, 04:44 PM
Home Premium doesn't have that feature, which kind of negates it for home users.

TheLastDodo
April 27th, 2009, 04:48 PM
With the release of Ubuntu 9.04 who would want to use Windows 7? I installed 9.04 on my laptop this past week and I love it.

My guess is the many people and businesses that have various legacy applications that aren't supported by the latest version of Windows, or WINE for that matter. This built-in emulator will likely prove very useful for many of them.

Giant Speck
April 27th, 2009, 04:50 PM
I must be out of my head because I want to use Windows 7.

sydbat
April 27th, 2009, 04:52 PM
I must be out of my head because I want to use Windows 7.Yes you are:tongue:

Giant Speck
April 27th, 2009, 04:53 PM
Yes you are:tongue:

Sweet. :)

forrestcupp
April 27th, 2009, 04:56 PM
Well, that's kind of disappointing. It's only XP running in a virtual machine. I wonder if that means there won't be any 3D support in XP mode.

SomeGuyDude
April 27th, 2009, 04:58 PM
With the release of Ubuntu 9.04 who would want to use Windows 7? I installed 9.04 on my laptop this past week and I love it.

With the existence of Arch, who would want to use Ubuntu 9.04?

Some people just like Windows for whatever reason.

BŲlvaūur
April 27th, 2009, 04:59 PM
I heard Jaunty comes bundled with a broser and does also have a xp mode.
Also from what I understand you can also open the cmd and type "ping www.ubuntuforums.org" so in reality... Jaunty is exactly the same as Windy7. Makes one wonder why Ubuntu is trying to copy Windy7

irv
April 27th, 2009, 05:29 PM
I heard Jaunty comes bundled with a broser and does also have a xp mode.
Also from what I understand you can also open the cmd and type "ping www.ubuntuforums.org" so in reality... Jaunty is exactly the same as Windy7. Makes one wonder why Ubuntu is trying to copy Windy7

I think it the other way around. Window 7 is trying to copy Ubuntu!

Npl
April 27th, 2009, 05:33 PM
Most Apps released in the last 5 years or so will easily run without VM in Windows 7.
A VM is nice to have for sure if you cant get an XP-App to run, but this should be rather rare. I suppose that most Apps which need this will be pre-XP anyway, would make sense to drop compatibility for DOS and Win9x which were based on it.

SunnyRabbiera
April 27th, 2009, 05:41 PM
With the existence of Arch, who would want to use Ubuntu 9.04?

People who dont know how to set up such a complicated distro, Arch is not user friendly in its installer.

ukripper
April 27th, 2009, 05:47 PM
Desperate move!!!

Giant Speck
April 27th, 2009, 05:52 PM
Desperate move!!!

Desperate how?

Skripka
April 27th, 2009, 05:54 PM
People who dont know how to set up such a complicated distro, Arch is not user friendly in its installer.

I believe the question posed was rhetorical. ;)

hatten
April 27th, 2009, 05:54 PM
People who dont know how to set up such a complicated distro, Arch is not user friendly in its installer.
the wiki is, http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Beginners_Guide
well, back to bashing windows ;)

benj1
April 27th, 2009, 06:01 PM
i thought the main excuse given by m$ and fans for /bloat/bugs/etc was because they needed to support all these legacy apps stretching back to dos.
i assume now that theyve got rid of all the legacy code windows will be a nice, light, bug/virus free os.

still won't be going back tho :)

pwnst*r
April 27th, 2009, 06:06 PM
With the release of Ubuntu 9.04 who would want to use Windows 7? I installed 9.04 on my laptop this past week and I love it.

people that have windows specific apps they need to run?

Dragonbite
April 27th, 2009, 06:12 PM
So if it is running a VM.. what kind of performance hit will that be?

Less than running full-blown VM I'm sure, but then again this is Microsoft Windows we are talking about and they have not been sipping from the reasonable-memory system kool-aid lately.

Why don't they just take Windows XP and make it look like Vista (-er, I mean "7") instead?!

gnomeuser
April 27th, 2009, 06:12 PM
I've been on Linux completely for over a decade, I will though admit that Windows 7 has some nice touches and I would not be entirely adverse to using it.

ukripper
April 27th, 2009, 06:17 PM
Desperate how?

No business wanted to jump on Vista bandwagon when it came out and still wondering in dark ages, so Windows 7 is a desperate move in an attempt o push something for businesses to adapt and so that they may later migrate to windows7 otherwise as usual M$ will have to take shots in their b^&llocks like they had with Vista!:)

kirsis
April 27th, 2009, 07:13 PM
Not a desperate move, rather - a smart one.

This enables them to drop support for legacy APIs in current/future Windows versions and redesign it for the current century, yet still keep their customer base satisfied and running whatever applications need running.

I'm willing to be the performance won't suffer too much either. Desktop apps already run fine in VMs and I'm sure they can get OGL and DX to work in the emulated windows. Different VMs already offer support for (limited) accelerated DX and/or OGL graphics + Microsoft actually has the source to everything that needs to be integrated.

Unless they botch it :) But eventually they're bound to get it right.

ZarathustraDK
April 27th, 2009, 07:16 PM
This is kind of a desperate move.

1. Home-users wont care as they don't get it.

2. Businesses who need XP-compliance will simply stick with XP.

3. It's like they just put a big red target on Win7 security-wise; sure it's probably sandboxed well, but it still constitutes a completely new attack-vector. Who cares if it's just the virtualized part that gets ruined, if you're running it in the first place you probably have a reason to do it.

I'd say that this is just MS screaming for attention. XP was too succesful for Microsoft, so now they're trying to market Win7 as XP-Ultimate to businesses. Someone will bite of course, but most will just stay with XP until security-support stops.

Would be fun if my work migrated to Win7 though, then we'd run a DOS-program in a XP-wrapper on a virtualized XP in Win7, lol.

irv
April 27th, 2009, 07:51 PM
People who dont know how to set up such a complicated distro, Arch is not user friendly in its installer.

I agree with you: quote off wiki
Arch Linux requires a certain level of intimate knowledge of its configuration and of UNIX-like system methodology and for this reason, extra explanatory information is included.

koenn
April 27th, 2009, 08:01 PM
Not a desperate move, rather - a smart one.

This enables them to drop support for legacy APIs in current/future Windows versions and redesign it for the current century, yet still keep their customer base satisfied and running whatever applications need running.


true.
Apple did the same when they switched from 'legacy' Mac OS to OS X

SomeGuyDude
April 27th, 2009, 08:25 PM
People who dont know how to set up such a complicated distro, Arch is not user friendly in its installer.

](*,)

My point was that "why would anyone want to use THAT operating system when MINE is so much better" is a dumb statement.

Stick with me, people.

Methuselah
April 27th, 2009, 08:37 PM
Seven seems to be a more compelling product that Vista was.
Granted, that might not be difficult to achieve since it need only be as good as Xp.
Heck, maybe that's what it is: Xp with a little Vista eye-junk.

irv
April 27th, 2009, 09:33 PM
Believe it or not. I started this thread because a friend of mine a Mac user sent me the links to Windows 7. He loves his Mac's. yes he has more that one. I believe Mac's OS and Linux has it over windows because of the virus issues out there. I have been using Linux for many years now and have never had a virus protection and spyware protection and have never had a virus.

gymophett
April 27th, 2009, 09:33 PM
With the existence of Arch, who would want to use Ubuntu 9.04?


Some people like things easy and out of the box. Not to start from scratch.

Namtabmai
April 27th, 2009, 09:37 PM
I have been using Linux for many years now and have never had a virus protection and spyware protection and have never had a virus.

Out of curiosity, if you've been running without a virus checker all that time how do you know you have never had a virus? Not all virus' are malignant.

lisati
April 27th, 2009, 09:41 PM
With the existence of Arch, who would want to use Ubuntu 9.04?

Some people just like Windows for whatever reason.

Why use Windows or Ubuntu when there's Freedos? :)

I sometimes use Windows because I'm too lazy to get Linux-friendly equivalents of the favourite video editing software I paid for working in Ubuntu.

SomeGuyDude
April 27th, 2009, 09:57 PM
some people like things easy and out of the box. Not to start from scratch.

please to be reading my above post.

forrestcupp
April 27th, 2009, 10:25 PM
To the people saying that this is a desperate move, think about this. I doubt if any one of you would touch Warty Warthog with a 10 foot pole. And no one would even expect Canonical to support such an ancient version. Well, Warty Warthog was released almost exactly 3 years after XP. If you can look past your MS hate, you should be able to understand why Microsoft would want people to move on. They're just helping people be able to do that.


And just to make things clear, SomeGuyDude wasn't saying that everyone should use Arch. He was making a point that some people use Ubuntu instead of Arch because they like Ubuntu, so it only makes sense that some people would want to use Windows over Ubuntu because they like Windows. Some people need to brush up on their reading comprehension skills. ;)

Rokurosv
April 27th, 2009, 10:27 PM
Well I think they're trying hard at getting people to let go of good old XP. I'm considering buying 7 cause XP is getting a little stale. I'm happy cause I kept my promise of skiping Vista completely :D.

And about Jaunty, I think it's far from perfect. It's too bloated but I guess that's because of the extra features it packs.

gnomeuser
April 27th, 2009, 10:28 PM
Microsoft adds a feature to ease migration and allow people to retain near perfect compatibility while giving them the option to clean up their legacy API.

And yet people find nefarious subtones in the decision. Honestly people, sometimes Microsoft makes good decisions, ones that benefit their users as well as themselves.

SomeGuyDude
April 27th, 2009, 10:59 PM
Vista isn't compatible with much older stuff and it's a huge blunder.

Window 7 is made to still use older stuff and it's also a huge blunder.

hanzomon4
April 27th, 2009, 11:12 PM
Win7 is freakin sweet, give credit where it's due.... haters

geoken
April 27th, 2009, 11:13 PM
2. Businesses who need XP-compliance will simply stick with XP.


If XP mode is easy to implement I think it's pretty unrealistic to claim that businesses will downgrade new hardware (which will have 7 pre-installed) rather than run the integrated, more secure internal VM.

MikeTheC
April 27th, 2009, 11:31 PM
Waiting for more details before I re-evaluate the tactical situation for Microsoft on this. However, just at an off-handed guess, I'd say their business customers are still dragging their feet (for which they still have d*mned good reasons) and Microsoft is just whipping out the carrots since clearly the stick did nothing to deter their customers from the slow adoption rate of WinVista.

But hey, I'm just a Mac and Linux guy. WTF would I know? ;)

ugriffin
April 27th, 2009, 11:51 PM
7 seems like a pretty good OS... as long as there's a performance improvement I'm jumping on the bandwagon... my Vista installation is pretty much a fat bloated beast that needs a little streamlining. In fact, I'd be interested on seeing the two OS's battling it out on my system to determine who reigns supreme: the main reason I use Linux atm is because it flies on my system and because I can line up viruses as trophies on a little file I have ;).

Still, for some reason, since pretty much all the PC's I got were used, and the first new one I have came with Vista, making it slow, I find a fast version of Windows difficult to imagine, thus making Linux a premature winner.:guitar:

zmjjmz
April 28th, 2009, 12:00 AM
Smart move on Microsoft's part, although it's not innovative as some pundits claim.

PurposeOfReason
April 28th, 2009, 12:02 AM
Some of you really need to start thinking on why Microsoft made a good move and not just bash them. Many games run best on XP, newer ones with work best on W7. This feature allows the best of both worlds for those who play games. Users who, 100 to 1, will not get basic.

Sef
April 28th, 2009, 12:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by irv http://ubuntuforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7162725#post7162725)
I have been using Linux for many years now and have never had a virus protection and spyware protection and have never had a virus.

Out of curiosity, if you've been running without a virus checker all that time how do you know you have never had a virus? Not all virus' are malignant.

There are no viruses in the wild for GNU/Linux.

zmjjmz
April 28th, 2009, 12:25 AM
Some of you really need to start thinking on why Microsoft made a good move and not just bash them. Many games run best on XP, newer ones with work best on W7. This feature allows the best of both worlds for those who play games. Users who, 100 to 1, will not get basic.

Actually, the emulation will probably take a hit on gaming.

wersdaluv
April 28th, 2009, 12:28 AM
Actually, the emulation will probably take a hit on gaming.
If DirectX whatever works on that XP VM. I hope so.

PurposeOfReason
April 28th, 2009, 12:38 AM
Actually, the emulation will probably take a hit on gaming.
Not enough to notice if you think of the games that were out for XP and the hardware is out now. I real gamer will easily be able to run it. You have to get out of the linux mentality to realize this. A lot of people get new hardware very often.

k2t0f12d
April 28th, 2009, 12:50 AM
I can't wait for Win8 that has Win7 mode in a virtual machine which has XP mode which is a virtual machine machine. Recursive OS!

Ticketoride
April 28th, 2009, 01:36 AM
Another Rah-Rah Pro-Ubuntu Pow-Wow Thread comparing Windows again. Yawn.


I think it the other way around. Window 7 is trying to copy Ubuntu!
I hope not. I like my Multimedia Modem, WebCam and Keyboard functioning. I buy my Hardware on the Basis of Merit not OS/Driver Compatibility Limitations. Secondly, the OS is not the Point either, but the Applications/Functions I require which are pretty much absent in Linux. Maybe another Time, but not now.

Who cares if MS incl. 'Virtua XP' with Win7? I already have XP which inevitably runs faster than it could in any virtual Mode. Win98/2K/XP have worked flawlessly for me, and I have no Reason to change just to be on anyone's leading Treadmill. Linux is just Curiosa for me, because there is not much I can do with it anyways that efficiently suits my Production & Entertainment Requirements, nor are Hundreds if not Thousands of Hours of tedious CLI Learning in store for me. Give it 5 Years, and Linux will have caught up to MS & MAC to completely operate an OS graphically without any further Requirement for the archaic Command Line, and left only for the Enthusiast. Dejavu 1991 DOS Fanboys warning of the impending Danger of the Win graphical Interface, different Time, same Story.


2. Businesses who need XP-compliance will simply stick with XP.
Exactly, you put your Finger right on it. They are not trying to wean anyone off Vista, but the Majority who stayed with XP. And they have not been given a good enough Reason to change, and held off because of unfavourable Vista Reviews, Hardware Bugs and operational Inertias.


I believe Mac's OS and Linux has it over windows because of the virus issues out there.
Aside from Purchase Price, flexible Programming & Customization for advanced Users, that's about the only Trump Card in the Linux Deck.


Microsoft adds a feature to ease migration and allow people to retain near perfect compatibility while giving them the option to clean up their legacy API.

And yet people find nefarious subtones in the decision. Honestly people, sometimes Microsoft makes good decisions, ones that benefit their users as well as themselves.
Yup, that's pretty much the Way it is. Well said !!!

__________________________________________________ ________________

No need for "This OS vs. That OS". Take the best from all Worlds.

zmjjmz
April 28th, 2009, 02:26 AM
Not enough to notice if you think of the games that were out for XP and the hardware is out now. I real gamer will easily be able to run it. You have to get out of the linux mentality to realize this. A lot of people get new hardware very often.

Well obviously most people buying Windows 7 computers will have shiny, new hardware, but the VM may not support enough features to deliver the true experience.

Npl
April 28th, 2009, 02:37 AM
Just to clear up some misconceptions: Windows 7.. runs XP-Apps.. NATIVE!
The VM is an additional measure, similar to the compatibility settings in Windows XP to allow some 9x Apps to run. Doesnt mean you have to run all XP-Apps through an VM, just those that make troubles.

Actually Windows 7 will add Hardware-Accelerated drawing for many XP-Apps where Vista had none (GDI,GDI+), so you could say its natively supporting XP-Apps better than Vista. No bloated VM involved.

toupeiro
April 28th, 2009, 03:46 AM
I love how Microsoft's solution to the constant incompatibilities faced in Vista/7 is to implement a "layer" via virtualization of a by that time, two generation old OS. This is Microsoft innovation? If thats the best they can do, they've gotten worse as a software company than I imagined, and I have a pretty good imagination. Just how much of my ram and CPU do I have to give up to an Operating System layer in order to work? Most people buy a computer to do work or play, after all. They do not buy a computer for the purpose of running windows.

ukripper
April 28th, 2009, 10:17 AM
Easy to say - just upgrade to new OS; but in real life business scenario, it makes hell for us the application developers who keep on reinventing the wheel for every new OS in the wild to meet the business specifications. I rather stick to XP and improvise our business model on top of it rather than moving on to Win 7.

haemulon
April 28th, 2009, 10:46 AM
MS seems to have lost it's way after Windows XP.

They made everything complicated for users and developers.

Windows 7 could be a step in the right direction.

But I'm staying on Linux for now.

benj1
April 28th, 2009, 11:15 AM
I can't wait for Win8 that has Win7 mode in a virtual machine which has XP mode which is a virtual machine machine. Recursive OS!
they could just do 7 in a VM in xp, save people having to install a new os:)

imagine win 7 running in xp running in 95 running in 3.1 running in DOS.
simple.

hanzomon4
April 28th, 2009, 11:44 AM
I don't understand all the complaints.. This is a smart idea that users want, they can have their cake and eat it too.

Deamos
April 28th, 2009, 12:11 PM
Wow... Just wow. I think MS is starting to really kill themselves.

the8thstar
April 28th, 2009, 12:34 PM
I guess I'm not clever enough to understand. Why didn't Microsoft integrate the XP Legacy (dlls and such) in Windows 7 instead of opting for a virtual machine emulator instead?

markharding557
April 28th, 2009, 12:36 PM
i read somewhere that win7 is based on vistas kernel and that is what would worry me,who knows what nasty drm,spying and control freak type things remain lurking within.

Npl
April 28th, 2009, 12:39 PM
I guess I'm not clever enough to understand. Why didn't Microsoft integrate the XP Legacy (dlls and such) in Windows 7 instead of opting for a virtual machine emulator instead?Who said the VM is instead? You only use it for Programs that make problems.

Dragonbite
April 28th, 2009, 01:41 PM
MS seems to have lost it's way after Windows XP.

That does seem to be the feel of their actions. Once they get a clear idea of who they are and what they are doing I think they will start holding ground again. So Linux has until that point to grab as much market share as possible because once they start getting their religion it's going to be a tougher battle for Linux (and Apple, but who cares?)

Supplying an optimized VM for XP applications that do not play nice with Windows 7, I think, is a great idea for them and won't be surprised if they utilize it more in the future as well.

This way they can sandbox that part of XP that may still be needed in the interim, yet keep it out of the core code so that unless you really need that portion you are using a slimmer core OS. Next iteration of Windows can remove that legacy part and replace the VM usage for more dead-weight features to remove.

What if Linux started using a design like that? I could see Red Hat utilizing a mini-VM for running legacy services without having to run the entire legacy OS. Gain the benefit of the secure and efficient modern version while able to maintain the older version until you are ready to upgrade your enterprise applications.

Come to think of it, this isn't such a foolish idea on Microsoft's part.

redb
April 28th, 2009, 02:27 PM
I would like to weigh in as a regular user (not a programmer or system admin).

I had recently gotten a job where they had windows 2000 which I used on a daily basis, easy to use no problems. Shortly after I talked my wife into buying our first home computer which came with windows ME which I did not care much for because it was so slow. As soon as I got the chance I bought a copy of XP. XP was great. Fast, easy to use! (I played around with linux soon after getting my first computer)

Last year my mother in-law brought out a new laptop with Vista on it and wanted to set it up to my router. We sat for a long time trying to configure it because everything was renamed and unfamiliar. I shrugged it off as nothing I wanted to be part of. Recently my wife got a new laptop that came with vista on it. Immediately, she wanted it set up to how she had things on XP. I could not do that. She had major problems finding her way around and both our patients wore thin.

I quickly ditched windows and installed ubuntu because it was set up very similar to XP environment. A big learning curve for me as I have to make things just work, but am willing to learn. I guess that I got a bad taste in my mouth about windows because I was frustrated that things on the menu's had changed too much and was sick of having to pay for this and that all the time. If I pay for something I should not be frustrated with it. Just my opinion.

To make a long story longer. Why keep changing the GUI so much that people have to sit and figure things out. Why not just get a standard layout and improve the engine. I guess that is why I like linux so much.

In business if you have a good system of management and labor you strive to improve but keep the same goal. You keep getting better at doing the same thing. You don't keep switching programs and making your customers keep having to figure out how to do business with you. The majority of people like to have things stay the same. I used to love Coca-cola, but when they changed it to New Coke, they lost me as a customer and I never went back even when they went back to the original. I think this is going to be windows downfall. I'm all for change but it should not be forced on me. Yes you can run XP on vm, but why not just make it XP better and screw the new UI. I would be pulling my hair out as a business owner having to retrain people on how to use a changed tool.

Mike

ZarathustraDK
April 28th, 2009, 04:43 PM
I think it's kinda funny, it really shows why the Microsoft model of doing things is ultimately self-defeating.

Users: WE LOVE XP!

Microsoft: Yeah but...we'd really like to keep making money...buy Win7...pretty pleeease?

If they want users to buy into Win7 they'll have to make it superior somehow in the eyes of normal people. If they manage to do that...well...then they just raised the bar they have to jump over with Win8.

vexorian
April 28th, 2009, 04:48 PM
This is only for the most expensive, enterprise windows 7 versions.

This belongs to the windows forum.

ukripper
April 28th, 2009, 04:57 PM
Users: WE LOVE XP!

Microsoft: Yeah but...we'd really like to keep making money...buy Win7...pretty pleeease?



Foolish director of a company says: Yes Please! Rip me off...

darthmob
April 28th, 2009, 05:03 PM
without knowing the details it seems like a smart decision to me. one problem of windows was that everything was always backwards compatible. all new versions dragged a pile of old stuff with them that unnecessarily bloated / slowed / complicated it.

a vm allows to stop that madness and implement really new stuff instead. they don't have to take compromises to keep the compatibility to older programs. I do hope that the performance will be right though!

Roberticus
April 28th, 2009, 05:07 PM
This is only for the most expensive, enterprise windows 7 versions.
Uhm, no?
"this feature will ship separately from the core OS for antitrust reasons and will be made available for free to customers of Windows 7 Professional, Enterprise, and Ultimate."

irv
April 28th, 2009, 05:15 PM
When I started this thread I could not have imagine how many great posts would appear here. It has been very interesting reading all of them.

I guess any one using a computer must learn how to use it, but the big question is what they use it for will depend on what OS or system they use.

I have been into computer for many years now, going back to the days even before DOS. I am a retired IT guy with a hobby in computer from back in the 70ís. When I worked I had to use and learn all about Windows OSís from Windows 3.1 up to XP.

I had a computer business on the side which my son now runs. In fact he runs it out of my home so I am still active in parts of the business. When it comes to service work I see more XP machines that Vista and soon to be Windows 7 coming in for repairs. I would say that it is about 50% software and 50% hardware related problem. Looking at the software it is virus or slow down related. People use computer for awhile and then they just get bogged down with crap from the Internet.

In lot of cases it is just a matter of saving the data and setting, and doing a fresh reload.
Now being a Linux guy I donít have that problem. My Linux machines just keep running and running. I donít want you to think that I donít use Windows but I will save that for another post. The point I am trying to make is that a person would spend less money on using Linux than Windows and less time working on software issues with the OS.

I know from using Windows I was always doing cleanup work on my PC. There are a few thing you can do with Linux to clean up unwanted and unused things but it can be done with a few commands and I canít every remember my Linux machine running to slow or have a virus. I donít know how Windows 7 will fare in this area, but I hope that M$ would address that issue.

geoken
April 28th, 2009, 05:16 PM
I would like to weigh in as a regular user (not a programmer or system admin).

I had recently gotten a job where they had windows 2000 which I used on a daily basis, easy to use no problems. Shortly after I talked my wife into buying our first home computer which came with windows ME which I did not care much for because it was so slow. As soon as I got the chance I bought a copy of XP. XP was great. Fast, easy to use! (I played around with linux soon after getting my first computer)

Last year my mother in-law brought out a new laptop with Vista on it and wanted to set it up to my router. We sat for a long time trying to configure it because everything was renamed and unfamiliar. I shrugged it off as nothing I wanted to be part of. Recently my wife got a new laptop that came with vista on it. Immediately, she wanted it set up to how she had things on XP. I could not do that. She had major problems finding her way around and both our patients wore thin.

I quickly ditched windows and installed ubuntu because it was set up very similar to XP environment. A big learning curve for me as I have to make things just work, but am willing to learn. I guess that I got a bad taste in my mouth about windows because I was frustrated that things on the menu's had changed too much and was sick of having to pay for this and that all the time. If I pay for something I should not be frustrated with it. Just my opinion.

To make a long story longer. Why keep changing the GUI so much that people have to sit and figure things out. Why not just get a standard layout and improve the engine. I guess that is why I like linux so much.

In business if you have a good system of management and labor you strive to improve but keep the same goal. You keep getting better at doing the same thing. You don't keep switching programs and making your customers keep having to figure out how to do business with you. The majority of people like to have things stay the same. I used to love Coca-cola, but when they changed it to New Coke, they lost me as a customer and I never went back even when they went back to the original. I think this is going to be windows downfall. I'm all for change but it should not be forced on me. Yes you can run XP on vm, but why not just make it XP better and screw the new UI. I would be pulling my hair out as a business owner having to retrain people on how to use a changed tool.

Mike

Can you give some really specific examples of things they randomly changed without any increase in functionality and how you were unable to figure it out?

geoken
April 28th, 2009, 05:28 PM
The point I am trying to make is that a person would spend less money on using Linux than Windows and less time working on software issues with the OS.

I know from using Windows I was always doing cleanup work on my PC. There are a few thing you can do with Linux to clean up unwanted and unused things but it can be done with a few commands and I canít every remember my Linux machine running to slow or have a virus. I donít know how Windows 7 will fare in this area, but I hope that M$ would address that issue.

That really varies from person to person and from task to task. I while back I spent a solid week playing with every Linux video editor trying to put together a promotional clip. After hours and hours wasted on every app I could find I finished the project in less then half a day with Windows Movie Maker.

The last time I had a virus was in '92 when some guy at school gave me a infected baseball game.

ukripper
April 28th, 2009, 05:41 PM
I while back I spent a solid week playing with every Linux video editor trying to put together a promotional clip. After hours and hours wasted on every app I could find I finished the project in less then half a day with Windows Movie Maker.



What about kino http://www.kinodv.org/. Did you try that? it is in ubuntu repos

Mehall
April 28th, 2009, 05:44 PM
kdenlive is also good.

Dragonbite
April 28th, 2009, 06:03 PM
That really varies from person to person and from task to task. I while back I spent a solid week playing with every Linux video editor trying to put together a promotional clip. After hours and hours wasted on every app I could find I finished the project in less then half a day with Windows Movie Maker.

The last time I had a virus was in '92 when some guy at school gave me a infected baseball game.

Linux native Digital Video Editing applications:
+1 Kino (http://www.kinodv.org/) Pretty standard, pretty good
+1 KDEnlive (http://www.kdenlive.org/) Testing it out but so far it seems pretty darn good
+? Cinelerra (http://www.heroinewarrior.com/cinelerra.php) Very, very powerful from what I've read, but more difficult to set up
+0 Pitivi (http://www.pitivi.org/wiki/Main_Page) last I knew, Pitivi didn't import from a digital camera

irv
April 28th, 2009, 06:25 PM
Letís talk about Windows. First, let me say I am running Linux on one server and one laptop. I have Windows Vista on one other laptop. A few years back I was totally Windows free and only used Linux. But a year ago last February I was getting ready to make a trip to Nigeria when a couple of days before I was to leave my laptop died. I was desperate and ran to Bust Buy to pick one up. I bought a Toshiba which did not like Ubuntu, (Hardware issues). I took it back and bought a Dell 1521 but I didnít have time to load Ubuntu on it before I left for Africa. When I returned I loaded Ubuntu on it but I had so many issues with the hardware I took it off and went back to using the Vista that came pre-loaded.

I never liked Vista from the get go and when it is running it is always doing something to make it slow down. Also, in the middle of doing a Power Point it would just stop working. There are many other issues but I think you get the point. I am stuck with it and stuck with Vista for now.

The old laptop that died was brought back to life with some hardware fixes and I am still using it for everyday stuff.
I guess I am back in both worlds again with Windows and Linux. I still use the Windows machine because it is bought and paid for and I need it for Netflix which is not supported on Linux yet.

My wife doesnít understand why I need two laptops, but I just tell her the good Lord gave me two hands so I need two of them. I guess she just puts up with me.
One thing nice about having a sever with Linux is that I keep all my files on it and can get to it from either laptop or where ever I am where I can get the Internet. I am also using online programs, email, calendar, etc so it doesnít make any difference what computer I use. I guess we are living in a world where we can use what ever we want if we can afford to.

geoken
April 28th, 2009, 06:53 PM
Linux native Digital Video Editing applications:
+1 Kino (http://www.kinodv.org/) Pretty standard, pretty good
+1 KDEnlive (http://www.kdenlive.org/) Testing it out but so far it seems pretty darn good
+? Cinelerra (http://www.heroinewarrior.com/cinelerra.php) Very, very powerful from what I've read, but more difficult to set up
+0 Pitivi (http://www.pitivi.org/wiki/Main_Page) last I knew, Pitivi didn't import from a digital camera

I used them all + Blender. I finally gave up when kdenlive (the one I settled on because it crashed the least) crashed in such a way that it corrupted the entire project.

Dragonbite
April 28th, 2009, 07:35 PM
I used them all + Blender. I finally gave up when kdenlive (the one I settled on because it crashed the least) crashed in such a way that it corrupted the entire project.

How long ago was this? I tried KDEnlive a while ago, but the most recent iteration is much better than that one was.

I really wish Pitivi would handle capturing over 1394 because the rest of it looks pretty good.

I heard about Blender working with video but do not have any experience with it.

redb
April 28th, 2009, 07:49 PM
Can you give some really specific examples of things they randomly changed without any increase in functionality and how you were unable to figure it out?


Don't get me wrong, most things I could figure out. When I went to get my mother in-laws laptop wireless after hitting start I was lost. I eventually found what I was looking for. Everything was re-named and it confused me and her.

I hope this isn't a troll from a dedicated windows user because I feel as though I do represent quite a few people who just want simplicity and usability in something they use on a daily basis. My mother in-law hates her vista just for the fact that she never can figure out where her pictures go. I know it's kinda funny.

In my opinion a person should be able to pick up a computer and immediately be able to get off and running, not having to search. The distro that will win the operating system wars will be the one that is so simple that a person who has never used a computer before will be able to figure it out quickly.

In my experience most people will take the easy way out, they don't care about the bells and whistles as much as they want things to be easy and work all the time.

Sorry I could not be more specific about vista, but I guess it was the last straw for me. After all the years of dumping money into antivirus and constantly having to remove spyware and let's not forget that stupid windows messenger that nagged me all the time with balloons.,...don't get me going on the balloons! How bout defrag.. I had had enough and quickly became un-interested in giving windows a chance. Someday who knows maybe I will go back to windows, but for the foreseeable future, not a chance.

I just hope that gnomes new UI will only be a choice and not the standard. I looks nice but so what. Wouldn't it be great if operating systems had a standard layout that was universal and you could just add the proprietary bells and whistles as you go along for the more racy bunch?

Mike

MasterNetra
April 28th, 2009, 07:57 PM
Sure Vista has its issues (So does linux) but i must say vista is much more secure then XP is, (About time windows started to become more safer).I hate the bloat in it as much as everyone else, but vista is not by any means a failure or a bad system. I hear though that Win7 is pretty much a upgraded version of vista minus much of the bloat, but I'll have to see for meh self when its released.

amg181270
April 28th, 2009, 08:09 PM
Sure Vista has its issues (So does linux) but i must say vista is much more secure then XP is, (About time windows started to become more safer).I hate the bloat in it as much as everyone else, but vista is not by any means a failure or a bad system. I hear though that Win7 is pretty much a upgraded version of vista minus much of the bloat, but I'll have to see for meh self when its released.

Although I never keep a Windows install for long, other than for testing and benchmarking purposes, Windows Vista and 7 seem to have a similar install footprint. The last beta of Windows 7 was not that much less than Vista with SP1.

I do concede that the normal everyday user of Windows will be better served by 7 than it's predecessor.

forrestcupp
April 28th, 2009, 08:55 PM
Not enough to notice if you think of the games that were out for XP and the hardware is out now. I real gamer will easily be able to run it. You have to get out of the linux mentality to realize this. A lot of people get new hardware very often.XP mode is merely XP running in a virtual machine. Virtual machines don't use your actual hardware; they use a standard 'virtual' video card that is much slower than your actual video card. Also, I haven't seen any VM that offers DirectX that has the bugs worked out of it.



Actually Windows 7 will add Hardware-Accelerated drawing for many XP-Apps where Vista had none (GDI,GDI+), so you could say its natively supporting XP-Apps better than Vista. No bloated VM involved.True, but I'll bet the apps you run in XP mode won't have that support.


I love how Microsoft's solution to the constant incompatibilities faced in Vista/7 is to implement a "layer" via virtualization of a by that time, two generation old OS. This is Microsoft innovation? If thats the best they can do, they've gotten worse as a software company than I imagined, and I have a pretty good imagination. Just how much of my ram and CPU do I have to give up to an Operating System layer in order to work? Most people buy a computer to do work or play, after all. They do not buy a computer for the purpose of running windows.What the heck do you think Linux is doing with Wine? They are adding a compatibility "layer" for totally different OS's that are generations old. You can't really bash MS for that when Linux has been doing the same thing even longer, unless you're a Mac fanboy and you hate Linux, too. But that can't be because Mac did it before Windows, too.



+? Cinelerra (http://www.heroinewarrior.com/cinelerra.php) Very, very powerful from what I've read, but more difficult to set up
Nah. If you use the Cinelerra CV repo (http://cinelerra.org/getting_cinelerra.php#ubuntu) for Ubuntu, it's not any harder to set up than anything else in Synaptic. It may be harder to figure out the depths of it than kdenlive. But it's worth it for it's crazy features, and it's not that hard to figure out for the simple stuff.

They don't have Jaunty ready yet, though. I doubt if it will take them long.

Dragonbite
April 28th, 2009, 09:01 PM
Nah. If you use the Cinelerra CV repo (http://cinelerra.org/getting_cinelerra.php#ubuntu) for Ubuntu, it's not any harder to set up than anything else in Synaptic. It may be harder to figure out the depths of it than kdenlive. But it's worth it for it's crazy features, and it's not that hard to figure out for the simple stuff.

They don't have Jaunty ready yet, though. I doubt if it will take them long.

Oh, thanks. I'm willing to give it a try if that's the case.

pointyblufish
April 28th, 2009, 09:09 PM
In my opinion a person should be able to pick up a computer and immediately be able to get off and running, not having to search. The distro that will win the operating system wars will be the one that is so simple that a person who has never used a computer before will be able to figure it out quickly.

Take the ease of use of Apple, the software library of Windows and the open source philosophy of Linux and you'd have yourself a winner. Right, so let's start by merging Gnome and KDE...

Giant Speck
April 28th, 2009, 09:10 PM
Take the ease of use of Apple, the software library of Windows and the open source philosophy of Linux and you'd have yourself a winner. Right, so let's start by merging Gnome and KDE...

Ewww... that could get messy...

Dragonbite
April 28th, 2009, 09:11 PM
Take the ease of use of Apple, the software library of Windows and the open source philosophy of Linux and you'd have yourself a winner. Right, so let's start by merging Gnome and KDE...

As a Linux user, I hope that day never comes.

Rather, I'd like to see people become educated and tech-savvy enough that they can pick up just about any computer and be off-and-running.

Each generation is getting more savvy and even my Mother has gotten pretty good with her computer so it is not as far-fetched as one might imagine.

forrestcupp
April 28th, 2009, 09:59 PM
Take the ease of use of Apple, the software library of Windows and the open source philosophy of Linux and you'd have yourself a winner. Right, so let's start by merging Gnome and KDE...

The thing is, those days are upon us. It's just that those of us who are old desktop lovers aren't willing to accept that the products of that evolution are real computers.

Today, we have DVR's, phones, advanced television settings, game systems, car consoles, OnStar, Satellite systems, appliances, mp3 players, and on and on. All of these things are computers that are made so that any ignorant person can turn them on and understand how to use them. But people like me, who have preconceived ideas about what a computer is, are not willing to accept that these are real computers.

Also, a lot of people can't figure out how to use computers only because they think they can't. If they could get over that psychological obstacle and just try, they could easily figure things out.

geoken
April 28th, 2009, 10:09 PM
Don't get me wrong, most things I could figure out. When I went to get my mother in-laws laptop wireless after hitting start I was lost. I eventually found what I was looking for. Everything was re-named and it confused me and her.

I hope this isn't a troll from a dedicated windows user because I feel as though I do represent quite a few people who just want simplicity and usability in something they use on a daily basis. My mother in-law hates her vista just for the fact that she never can figure out where her pictures go. I know it's kinda funny.

In my opinion a person should be able to pick up a computer and immediately be able to get off and running, not having to search. The distro that will win the operating system wars will be the one that is so simple that a person who has never used a computer before will be able to figure it out quickly.

In my experience most people will take the easy way out, they don't care about the bells and whistles as much as they want things to be easy and work all the time.

Sorry I could not be more specific about vista, but I guess it was the last straw for me. After all the years of dumping money into antivirus and constantly having to remove spyware and let's not forget that stupid windows messenger that nagged me all the time with balloons.,...don't get me going on the balloons! How bout defrag.. I had had enough and quickly became un-interested in giving windows a chance. Someday who knows maybe I will go back to windows, but for the foreseeable future, not a chance.

I just hope that gnomes new UI will only be a choice and not the standard. I looks nice but so what. Wouldn't it be great if operating systems had a standard layout that was universal and you could just add the proprietary bells and whistles as you go along for the more racy bunch?

Mike

I'm just curious because I've heard people say this before but I haven't really noticed any. From what I see the control panel items are largely unchanged and most options are where they used to be. People make it seem like it's common for an XP user to be completely immobilized after moving to Vista but I've seen several family members do it without any problems.

redb
April 28th, 2009, 11:20 PM
I'm just curious because I've heard people say this before but I haven't really noticed any. From what I see the control panel items are largely unchanged and most options are where they used to be. People make it seem like it's common for an XP user to be completely immobilized after moving to Vista but I've seen several family members do it without any problems.


I have three kids eight to 13. They had no problems migrating from windows XP to ubuntu 8.10. My wife who is almost 40 is not willing to learn new stuff all the time. She just wants it to work and not have to think too much of it. My father is 68 and just recently started to use coputers about 3 years ago and has lots of problems. Same as my mother in-law.

It is obvious that there is a huge learning gap or willing gap. If there is only one thing that I would like anyone to take away from what I have said is that there should be a standard easy basic system to boot onto your first boot and have it very simplified, but have the options to "pimp" your ride any way you want. It would be I guess the "jitterbug" of operating systems. It would start as basic and could be configured any way you like by the use of repositories. This would also benefit people who have learning disabilities of any degree. One size fits all I guess.

forrestcupp
April 29th, 2009, 01:31 PM
It is obvious that there is a huge learning gap or willing gap.

For basic computer usage, I'd say it's much more a 'willing gap' than a learning gap. It's not that hard to learn the mundane things, especially since everybody copies everybody else. The main menu is obviously like the Start Menu. Panels with the notification area is exactly like Windows' Task Bar and Task Tray.

I installed Xubuntu on my dad's laptop and showed him how to use it. When I showed him the Settings menu, he said, "Oh, so that's like the Control Panel."

No matter what OS you use, they're all basically the same. So it's definitely a 'willing' thing.

That's pretty much why I'm excited about Gnome 3. Finally someone is breaking away from the same ol' same ol'.

Dragonbite
April 29th, 2009, 02:52 PM
I installed Xubuntu on my dad's laptop and showed him how to use it. When I showed him the Settings menu, he said, "Oh, so that's like the Control Panel."

Well, if he's only used Windows you can't expect him to say "that looks like Yast" now can you?

People are going to connect what they are learning to what they know!

This is why I argue to use Gnome instead of KDE for people migrating from Windows.

When you click that button with either a "Start" on it or a main menu icon (why Kubuntu uses the KDE logo is just one point I don't get and nobody has been able to answer, but anyway..) they expect a menu to pop up! Nothing wrong with that, but all too often without realizing it they start expecting things to be the way they are in the other system and become frustrated each time something isn't and don't realize why they are getting frustrated.

With Gnome, I find it significantly different than Windows (maybe it's Mac-like? I dunno) so I don't get caught in those types of expectations. I also found it was easier for my wife to learn with Gnome while KDE kept messing her up because of her expectations (she's also very visual, so that doesn't help).

zakany
April 29th, 2009, 04:05 PM
I miss the days when a "computer" was a woman sitting at a desk with a mechanical calculator the size of a typewriter, crunching numbers.

Dragonbite
April 29th, 2009, 04:17 PM
I miss the days when a "computer" was a woman sitting at a desk with a mechanical calculator the size of a typewriter, crunching numbers.

That all depends on how cute she is ;)

ukripper
April 29th, 2009, 04:32 PM
I miss the days when a "computer" was a woman sitting at a desk with a mechanical calculator the size of a typewriter, crunching numbers.

poor fingers....:(

irv
April 29th, 2009, 04:37 PM
poor fingers....:(

Maybe we should go back to the days of punch cards and save our fingers.

andras artois
April 29th, 2009, 04:57 PM
I think I'll definitely give Windows 7 ago, I might even run it as my main OS.

forrestcupp
April 29th, 2009, 05:39 PM
Well, if he's only used Windows you can't expect him to say "that looks like Yast" now can you?

That was kind of my point. Everyone copies off of everyone else's hackneyed ideas. So it's not necessarily that people can't learn, but that they won't.

Different DE's and OS's look differently and there are some differences. But from the user interface perspective, they all have the same basic functionality. If someone is proficient at using Windows, it really shouldn't be that hard to be able to browse through the menus in Gnome and figure it all out.

Keep in mind I'm talking about the average user who only wants to do mundane things, not the power user who wants to tweak everything from the command line.

irv
April 29th, 2009, 05:47 PM
My big issue with any windows OS is what keep happening. This goes back to Win3.1 all the way to Vista. Take for example this morning I was just reading something on my Vista machine and went to move my mouse and it locked up. I could not get it to respond so after waiting for awhile I had to power it off and wait to have it reboot so I could just finish reading. This never happens with my Ubuntu.

forrestcupp
April 29th, 2009, 10:58 PM
My big issue with any windows OS is what keep happening. This goes back to Win3.1 all the way to Vista. Take for example this morning I was just reading something on my Vista machine and went to move my mouse and it locked up. I could not get it to respond so after waiting for awhile I had to power it off and wait to have it reboot so I could just finish reading. This never happens with my Ubuntu.

I've had Ubuntu lock up for seemingly no reason several times, just like Windows has. It doesn't matter what you use; they all have their instability problems.

Dragonbite
April 30th, 2009, 05:29 AM
I've had Ubuntu lock up for seemingly no reason several times, just like Windows has. It doesn't matter what you use; they all have their instability problems.

I've gotten Linux to lock up so bad that the lights on the keyboard were flashing and nothing produced any response (except the power button being held for a few minutes... ;) )

djdarrin91
April 30th, 2009, 06:34 AM
I agree! I've tried 7 just to check it out. that lasted about 20 minutes. I was not impressed to say the least.

djdarrin91
April 30th, 2009, 06:42 AM
Almost sounds like a few people here need to be in the windows forum:roll:

Giant Speck
April 30th, 2009, 11:07 AM
Almost sounds like a few people here need to be in the windows forum:roll:

Yeah, because we can't let Linux users see that there are people out there that like Linux and Windows... :roll:

ukripper
April 30th, 2009, 11:16 AM
Yeah, because we can't let Linux users see that there are people out there that like Linux and Windows... :roll:

and openSolaris...:popcorn:

I was just reading blog on opensolaris.. finding something interesting for some...http://www.antonioshome.net/blog/2008/20081217-1.php another example of trolling..

pwnst*r
April 30th, 2009, 12:08 PM
My big issue with any windows OS is what keep happening. This goes back to Win3.1 all the way to Vista. Take for example this morning I was just reading something on my Vista machine and went to move my mouse and it locked up. I could not get it to respond so after waiting for awhile I had to power it off and wait to have it reboot so I could just finish reading. This never happens with my Ubuntu.

that never happens with my Vista.

geoken
April 30th, 2009, 01:31 PM
Almost sounds like a few people here need to be in the windows forum:roll:

What better way to improve ourselves than to completely insulate ourselves from any comparisons and constructive criticisms.

/s

Dragonbite
April 30th, 2009, 01:32 PM
that doesn't happen with my Vista either... um, because I don't *HAVE* a Vista. But I don't let that stop me! :lolflag:

forrestcupp
April 30th, 2009, 02:10 PM
Almost sounds like a few people here need to be in the windows forum:roll:

Well, we would, but they shut down the Other OS discussion subforums. :)

Sealbhach
April 30th, 2009, 02:19 PM
I wouldn't care if Windows 7 was the best OS there will ever be. I would never use it. I'd rather use an OS which is not from Microsoft. Apart from their previous offences against innovation, you just don't know what you're installing on your computer (particularly in relation to DRM).


.

upchucky
May 3rd, 2009, 08:14 PM
I have one win xp machine, it runs my magicjack phone which is not supported by linux yet. I have three other machines, all running Linux, one of which is my wife's machine for her video and picture files.

It took me all of one weekend to teach her how to run and maintain Ubuntu, she is very happy now that the machine just runs and runs, no virus, malware worries, or re-installs.

the worst thing to happen to computers was windows, prior to windows computer programming and management was being taught in school and the whole idea of computer technology and learning was headed in the right direction, everyone learns.

since the introduction of windows, computer teaching has evolved into simple point and click, if you can run a microwave, you can run windows.

All windows did was create a bunch of computer idiots, and send one company laughing all the way to the bank.

but if all one can do is point and click, then one has to depend on others to make the computer work when something goes wrong. Now if one has followed a different path and set out to know what happens behind the scenes when the mouse is clicked, then that one has learned how to really use and maintain a computer, and has discovered the actual power of the commandline with it's ability to allow one to control their computer and make it do what they want instead of having to pay a third party to create something that they think you should do with your computer.

Fortunately Linux is a OS that requires one to actually learn, and does not rape your pocketbook in doing so.

There are well over 7,000 computers where I work, the company is locked in to xp, only because of legacy issues, and the constant hardware upgrades required by any new windows OS.

Many computer manufacturers have crawled into bed with Microsoft, (some have seen the folly in this and are currently crawling back out) The constant hardware upgrades just to run the operating system, and the constant operating system upgrades have allowed both Microsoft and the manufacturers the ability to run to the bank laughing all the way.

Long ago I switched to Linux, gone are the entire weekends of defragging, scanning, repairing, hours of googling the next rash of problems causing windows to self destruct,

Gone are the expenses of third party software created to attempt to keep windows actually running.

If my Linux box locks up, no need to reboot, kill the offending app and keep on going.

Gone are the expenses of upgrading Microsoft licences, and more importantly now I have more time to actually do stuff I want to do with my machines, instead of coming home and being met at the door with Honey my computer is not working again, I really need it. Ok sweetie, I again will spend my entire weekend troubleshooting it and reinstalling all your stuff. Oh and while you are at it the kids machine is down too and they have homework to get done on it.

My last laptop purchase I got back $120.00 from Microsoft for not agreeing to the end user licence agreement and giving the recovery disks back to Dell. That is a whole other story and was like pulling teeth out of a chicken.

People need to be educated, there is not one logical reason to be spending money on an operating system, neither on any software just to make the operating system work.

To Quote Linus Torvalds "If I met Bill Gates, it would not be much of a meeting, I could not talk of marketing to him, and he could not talk of technology to me."

To Quote Me, "A fool and his money is some party"

irv
May 3rd, 2009, 09:30 PM
upchucky loved your post. You sound a lot like me. I have to keep one Windows machine around to run Magicjack and watch movies from Netflix, both are not supported in Linux. Right now I am out on my patio with my old laptop running Ubuntu 9.04, that runs faster then my new laptop running Vista. The only reason I don't have Ubuntu on the new one is compatibility problems with the hardware. I have a few old desktop around I could run a old copy of windows on to do the Magicjack and Netflix on.

When the netbooks started coming out I thought Linux would really take hold, but when you have a magazine like Consumer Reports down playing Linux in favor of Window it hurts.

I know what you mean by mouse clickers and real computer user. It is a world of difference.
Thanks again for the post.

upchucky
May 4th, 2009, 12:27 AM
thanks, just for information, I dug an old 200mhz 160 meg ram, 1.5gig drive Toshiba 310cds laptop out of the closet, used bartpe to get the installed footprint of xp down to 150 meg. this is now my magicjack phone system. I reboot it about every 2 weeks just to keep windows from gettin lazy. it is behind the router firewall, and avg antivirus has not found any thing on it yet. but then it only sits there doing nothing except when the phone rings.

It is amazing or amusing that as long as I do not use windows to do any thing, it runs ok.

the only problem I have had is calling 1-800 numbers in Canada which are listed for companies by default, some are surprised I only want the regular phone numbers.

irv
May 4th, 2009, 01:47 AM
thanks, just for information, I dug an old 200mhz 160 meg ram, 1.5gig drive Toshiba 310cds laptop out of the closet, used bartpe to get the installed footprint of xp down to 150 meg. this is now my magicjack phone system. I reboot it about every 2 weeks just to keep windows from gettin lazy. it is behind the router firewall, and avg antivirus has not found any thing on it yet. but then it only sits there doing nothing except when the phone rings.

It is amazing or amusing that as long as I do not use windows to do any thing, it runs ok.

the only problem I have had is calling 1-800 numbers in Canada which are listed for companies by default, some are surprised I only want the regular phone numbers.

MagicJack is great. I got one to make overseas calls. I call Ireland, Africa etc. I bought $20 worth of international minutes last year, and I still have about $16 left.

Another way I use it is when I am on the road. My wife calls my computer when she wants me. Works great. I wish the guy who came up with MagicJack would port it to Linux.

aikiwolfie
May 4th, 2009, 02:00 AM
I've been testing Windows 7 since the beta was made available to everybody. As OSs go it's pretty spartant out of the box. Nothing much to look at.

This whole XP mode crap is nothing more than a gimmick to keep Windows in the head lines. And it's working. We're all talking about Windows. First we had the whole multi-touch thing going on. Then everybody went ... "oh wait this sis usless without a touch screen"!

So Microsoft had to tout another gimmick to keep people interested. Along came the UAC "controversy". OMG UAC doesn't actually protect your PC. Who knew?

When that blew over it was the whole buzz about the ... taskbar. Yes the taskbar is considered a major new feature in Windows 7. Apparently. Oh and WOW! We can stick icons directly to the taskbar. Just like in Gnome and KDE but they didn't copy Gnome or KDE at all. Nope it's all 100% new innovation!

Now we have this whole XP mode nonsense. XP applications work fine in Windows 7. As I said I've been testing it for a while. It's a gimmick. A gimmick that's going to leave a lot of folks feeling sore and abused and walking funny when they realise a lot of applications don't like VMs. Especially if they need access to DRMed CDs. Could cause more problems for SMBs than it solves.

The next big fuss about Windows 7 though will be a nasty sting in the tail. When I downloaded and installed Windows 7 it was made clear Windows would time out in August 1st. Fine no problem. It's not my main OS and I'm just playing with it anyway. If you're going to criticise something you need to experience it first.

What Microsoft didn't tell beta testers is that starting July Windows 7 will start doing "bi-hourly shutdowns". Microsoft let that one slip out quietly on one of it's many Windows 7 blogs. The same applies to RC1 testers too.

Nice way to thank all the thousands of people that tested your product. For free!

irv
May 4th, 2009, 02:18 AM
Thanks for the info and the testing aikiwolfie.
I believe most people on this board use windows because they need it for some software or hardware that does not work with Linux yet. But as time goes on, Linux is growing in numbers. I might not see Linux get as big as windows in my lift time, but that's OK. I like our user base right now. There is a bunch of nice Linux users out here, and wouldn't want it any other way.
Thanks again

Hyper Tails
May 4th, 2009, 02:21 AM
awsome!!!

I wish my vista os had that to...

oh well.. I guess i will have to wait another month for windows 7
(they said it june,3rd it's released)

forrestcupp
May 4th, 2009, 02:39 AM
Now we have this whole XP mode nonsense. XP applications work fine in Windows 7. As I said I've been testing it for a while. It's a gimmick.I agree that XPM is a gimmick. But you're stretching the truth a little. XP mode wasn't in the beta. It hasn't been in any release up until the RC, which isn't even being released to the public until this coming Tuesday. So how could you "have been testing it for a while"?


What Microsoft didn't tell beta testers is that starting July Windows 7 will start doing "bi-hourly shutdowns". Microsoft let that one slip out quietly on one of it's many Windows 7 blogs. The same applies to RC1 testers too.
That's not even true. It's true for the beta, but the RC doesn't expire until June 1, 2010. The bi-hourly shutdowns don't start for the RC until March 1, 2010. Vista's final release candidate worked the same way, except they only had an 8 month period before it expired. I think 10 months with no restrictions is fairly generous for a non-free OS.

aikiwolfie
May 4th, 2009, 06:16 AM
I agree that XPM is a gimmick. But you're stretching the truth a little. XP mode wasn't in the beta. It hasn't been in any release up until the RC, which isn't even being released to the public until this coming Tuesday. So how could you "have been testing it for a while"?Never said it was in the beta. I said it was a headline gimmick.


That's not even true. It's true for the beta, but the RC doesn't expire until June 1, 2010. The bi-hourly shutdowns don't start for the RC until March 1, 2010. Vista's final release candidate worked the same way, except they only had an 8 month period before it expired. I think 10 months with no restrictions is fairly generous for a non-free OS.Yeah your right. But the RC tester will get the same treatment as the beat testers.

Eventually Microsoft will brand them all pirates and demand they pay up and cripple their systems.

forrestcupp
May 4th, 2009, 01:17 PM
Never said it was in the beta. I said it was a headline gimmick.Well, I agree with you there. XPM is a joke in my opinion. Most computers probably don't even have a proc that will run it. I have a Core 2 Duo T5550, and it can't run it.


Yeah your right. But the RC tester will get the same treatment as the beat testers.

Eventually Microsoft will brand them all pirates and demand they pay up and cripple their systems.
I disagree with your sentiment, here. We already know what we're getting into before we install it. MS is releasing the RC tomorrow to anyone in the world who wants to download it. It will be available for at least a month. They can't just give the final away for free potentially to everyone in the world. Windows makes up half of Microsoft's revenue.

If they only had a small, select group testing it, then I would agree with what you're saying.

geoken
May 4th, 2009, 01:58 PM
When that blew over it was the whole buzz about the ... taskbar. Yes the taskbar is considered a major new feature in Windows 7. Apparently. Oh and WOW! We can stick icons directly to the taskbar. Just like in Gnome and KDE but they didn't copy Gnome or KDE at all. Nope it's all 100% new innovation!

Have you actually used Windows 7? You say you have but I can't believe it if the only difference you see in the taskbar is the ability to put icons on it (and for the record, you've been able to put icons on the taskbar since before gnome and kde existed). You didn't notice the jumplists, grouped previews, icon notifications, icon rearranging, etc.?

I understand where you're coming from though. It's a lot easier to argue against a straw man than against the thing you're actually criticizing.

forrestcupp
May 4th, 2009, 03:39 PM
Have you actually used Windows 7? You say you have but I can't believe it if the only difference you see in the taskbar is the ability to put icons on it (and for the record, you've been able to put icons on the taskbar since before gnome and kde existed). You didn't notice the jumplists, grouped previews, icon notifications, icon rearranging, etc.?

I understand where you're coming from though. It's a lot easier to argue against a straw man than against the thing you're actually criticizing.

Not only that, but what about Gnome's/KDE's main menu; panels with task switchers; notification areas; Windows with minimize, maximize, and close buttons in the upper right corner of the title bar; File, Edit, View, Help menus directly below the title bar; and on and on. Of course they didn't copy any of that from Windows, which had all of that long before Gnome or KDE.

Everybody copies Everybody.

aikiwolfie
May 4th, 2009, 04:37 PM
Have you actually used Windows 7? You say you have but I can't believe it if the only difference you see in the taskbar is the ability to put icons on it (and for the record, you've been able to put icons on the taskbar since before gnome and kde existed). You didn't notice the jumplists, grouped previews, icon notifications, icon rearranging, etc.?

I understand where you're coming from though. It's a lot easier to argue against a straw man than against the thing you're actually criticizing.
I have as it happens. I've tested the 32-bit version on a VirtualBox VM and the 64-bit version on a nuts and bolts real machine. A Dell 720 with a Core2 Quad 2.66Ghz CPU, 8GB RAM and 1.5TB of hard drive space.

On that sort of machine Windows XP, Vista and 7 will all run just as fast as each other. They will all be responsive. So the differences come down to what's actually being offered in the OS.

And your right. Tacking icons to the taskbar in Windows has been around since Windows 95/NT 4.x. It's the way it's done in Windows 7 that's similar to Gnome, KDE and the dock in OS X. And even then it's hardly a major step forward.

But Microsoft would have you believe different. They did milk it for all the headlines they could get. Which was my point really. It's Microsoft that's highlighted these examples as the major improvements. Not me. I just repeated the Microsoft line. ;)

benj1
May 4th, 2009, 04:54 PM
That's not even true. It's true for the beta, but the RC doesn't expire until June 1, 2010. The bi-hourly shutdowns don't start for the RC until March 1, 2010. Vista's final release candidate worked the same way, except they only had an 8 month period before it expired. I think 10 months with no restrictions is fairly generous for a non-free OS.

im suprised theyre not letting people use the RC for longer, the whole point (IMO) is to get people to switch, even if they offered it for 2 years, it would still essentially be a buy now, pay in two years offer, they aren't losing sales,theyre just deferring the income from it. the whole problem with vista, from microsofts position was that nobody upgraded, if they give it away, to help achieve critical mass, then thats win win for them, all theyre losing is interest from deferred income and im sure microsoft has the cash flow and cash pile to survive that.

geoken
May 4th, 2009, 05:39 PM
And your right. Tacking icons to the taskbar in Windows has been around since Windows 95/NT 4.x. It's the way it's done in Windows 7 that's similar to Gnome, KDE and the dock in OS X. And even then it's hardly a major step forward.

But Microsoft would have you believe different. They did milk it for all the headlines they could get. Which was my point really. It's Microsoft that's highlighted these examples as the major improvements. Not me. I just repeated the Microsoft line. ;)

No, Microsoft highlighted the new taskbar as a new feature. You're the one who decided to take a *single* feature of that new taskbar and say that MS is touting non-features.

Also, the way they're touting that single feature doesn't exist on Gnome or KDE. Whenever they talk about 'pinning' they use the example if taking a currently running app and making it stay on the taskbar. This is very different from the Gnome/KDE workflow. If I launch an app through the terminal (because it didn't show up in my main menu) can I use that app's tile in the taskbar to create a shortcut which stays in the taskbar?

The way it's always been done in Windows is the way it's curently done in Gnome/KDE. Grab an icon -> drop it in the launcher area of the panel; that's how it's been done in windows since at least Win 2k and that's how it's currently done in Gnome/KDE.

aikiwolfie
May 5th, 2009, 06:34 PM
LOL whatever. It's just not worth arguing over. But you're right. Windows 7 is just one big non-feature.

clw3388
May 5th, 2009, 07:03 PM
[QUOTE=irv;7169401]I just tell her the good Lord gave me two hands so I need two of them. QUOTE]


I like that.. I could use another laptop

Besides its eaiser to beg for forgivness than ask for permission :)

geoken
May 5th, 2009, 07:25 PM
LOL whatever. It's just not worth arguing over. But you're right. Windows 7 is just one big non-feature.

A feature is a subjective term. I find taskbar grouping and the ability to re-arrange things a feature as useful as multiple desktops, you obviously don't. Nothing wrong with either of our opinions.