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Mark76
April 21st, 2009, 06:45 PM
I think Ms Schroeder makes some fair points



I had to read this story Lenovo analyst: Linux on netbooks is doomed" (http://tech.blorge.com/Structure:%20/2009/04/21/lenovo-analyst-linux-on-netbooks-is-doomed/) several times because I couldn't quite believe what I was reading. Was this really Lenovo's Worldwide Competitive Analyst saying things like "You have to know how to decompile codes and upload data"? Really?

I wrote to both the interview author, John Pospisil, and to Matt Kohut, Lenovo's Worldwide Competitive Analyst, asking if Mr. Kohut had been accurately quoted. I haven't heard back yet, but then it's just been a couple of hours. So I searched for other articles about Mr. Kohut, and found some interesting nuggets. Here is his Lenovo bio (http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?page_id=20):

"Matt knows a few things about computers and technology...For several years, Matt has traveled around the world helping customers, sales reps, and business partners understand the Lenovo product lines."

Sounds like a fun job. I think this bio would be more accurate if it said "...knows a few things about Lenovo computers and Windows software."

His Lenovo blog has a lot of interesting information on Lenovo hardware (http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?page_id=20), and some insights into why they make certain design and product decisions. For example, the move to the 16:9 widescreen format has been dictated by LCD panel manufacturers because they cost less to produce. Never mind that many computer users prefer more vertical space, like the old 4:3 format, because it's better for documents. Lenovo crunched numbers and decided that supporting multiple display ratios (http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=220) wasn't worth it.

Again, software seems to be his weak spot:

"I'm tired of losing vertical space, and I am about to make a drastic change to the way I run Windows. Starting later this year when I run Windows 7, I'm going to start positioning my Task Bar on the left hand side of my screen."

Drastic? Mmkay.

More on Windows 7 + In Flight Netbooks (http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=203) and Windows 7 and Lenovo ThinkVantage Technologies (http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=201) are fascinating glimpses into the tail-wagging-the-dog world world of Microsoft partners:

"When creating our ThinkVantage Technologies (programs like Access Connections, ImageUltra Builder, and Rescue and Recovery), we've used an "embrace and extend" methodology. In other words, we would take a basic function present in Windows and add our own additional capabilities and features on top of it...

"...our dilemma is clear -- at what point does Windows offer "good enough" functionality that we should abandon our own tools and focus on something else?"

Lenovo is willing to invest all kinds of resources into mitigating Windows' deficiencies, and tailoring its hardware to hobble along in step with Windows. And yet Linux is too hard (http://lenovoblogs.com/insidethebox/?p=97):

"Since the market seems to be asking for more, we announced a ThinkPad T61 with a Linux preload a few weeks ago. Other than a few developers and hobbyists, I don’t expect us to really sell all that many. There's no value proposition for it. Yeah, you'll avoid the Microsoft tax, but if you’re a business your IT shop will spend far more in support costs, lost user productivity, and sleepless nights."

Lenovo's Linux strategy to date has been:

1. Issue some press releases on how Lenovo loves Linux, no really
2. Offer a few token Linux preloads
3. Hide them so cunningly no customer can find them
4. For the persistent customers that do find them, make sure to include some entertaining defects
5. Issue more press releases on how Linux doesn't sell and give up

When someone makes such giant mountains out of such tiny molehills it makes me wonder. How is it that ordinary Linux users can download and install Linux on Thinkpads, Ideapads, EeePCs, Mini Notes, and all kinds of computer brands and models without it being a big hairy failure? What special knowledge do they possess that Lenovo is unable to grasp? How can anyone in tech these days get away with not having broad knowledge of multiple operating systems, applications, and trends in development? You don't have to be a total elite expert in every detail, but I think anyone who isn't informed enough to avoid spouting pure nonsense should not have a job in tech.

Lunx
April 21st, 2009, 07:00 PM
Matt knows a few things about computers and technology

Think I've spotted a typo in that

Matt knows few things about computers and technology

Yep, that fixed it.

The story from first link is interesting with a comment about it apparently being Linus's fault that driver support is somewhat problematic.


“Linus needs to get to the point where if you want to plug something in, Linux loads the driver and it just works".

Hmmm....

NightwishFan
April 21st, 2009, 07:22 PM
Has anyone ever installed Windows fresh from a CD? Driver support? Windows not only has support for nothing by default, it is an annoying big deal to gather driver support.

Funny, my live CD seems to have 1440x900 resolution, sound support, working ethernet card, etc.

Windows by default uses 640x480, no sound, no internet.

If there was no driver CD, how would I get drivers?

Icehuck
April 21st, 2009, 07:26 PM
Has anyone ever installed Windows fresh from a CD? Driver support? Windows not only has support for nothing by default, it is an annoying big deal to gather driver support.

Funny, my live CD seems to have 1440x900 resolution, sound support, working ethernet card, etc.

Windows by default uses 640x480, no sound, no internet.

If there was no driver CD, how would I get drivers?

Here is the brilliance of Microsoft. Why should they write or supply all the drivers for the 1000000s of pieces of hardware made for Windows? It seems logical that the manufacturer should be responsible for supplying the drivers for their hardware if they want it used.

Npl
April 21st, 2009, 07:31 PM
If there was no driver CD, how would I get drivers?The same way you downloaded your Linux-CD?

NightwishFan
April 21st, 2009, 07:39 PM
Don't get cheeky. If I have a Windows Xp install CD and an Ubuntu install CD, Ubuntu will be able to gather other software, as there is a good chance your ethernet card will work, and possibly even wireless.

I AGREE that Microsoft should not write drivers, but perhaps they could have included better generic ones.

On Linux All of my hardware except my Nvidia card work flawlessly, including my memory card readers.

On Vista, default support is better than Xp of course. As well as downloading an updating drivers is sometime integrated with Windows Update. Before, it wasn't. You had to find 10 or so drivers manually. Sometimes more.

karellen
April 21st, 2009, 07:50 PM
Don't get cheeky. If I have a Windows Xp install CD and an Ubuntu install CD, Ubuntu will be able to gather other software, as there is a good chance your ethernet card will work, and possibly even wireless.

I AGREE that Microsoft should not write drivers, but perhaps they could have included better generic ones.

On Linux All of my hardware except my Nvidia card work flawlessly, including my memory card readers.

On Vista, default support is better than Xp of course. As well as downloading an updating drivers is sometime integrated with Windows Update. Before, it wasn't. You had to find 10 or so drivers manually. Sometimes more.

at least Windows started to improve its default driver support. My Toshiba Satellite wasn't well supported out of the box by Vista, I had to install drivers for the graphic card, ethernet card, wireless adapter and so on. in Windows 7, all of the above components worked by default in the fresh install

Npl
April 21st, 2009, 08:00 PM
Don't get cheeky. If I have a Windows Xp install CD and an Ubuntu install CD, Ubuntu will be able to gather other software, as there is a good chance your ethernet card will work, and possibly even wireless.Has it ever occured to you that MS can only put drivers on the CD that were already released?
XP supported practically everything out-of-the-box on its release, as did Vista (and still does to a good extent).
Lets get a Linux-Distro from 2001 and see how much Hardware will work.

Seriously - want everything working? Get a prebuild CD and you typically will get a customized Windows CD with all drivers included.
Build yourself? Use the driver on the CD or google up the name on the box.

I agree that the Repos in Linux are great if you want to setup a PC and let updates go though it. But then I dont understand why every little change in the kernel needs new drivers (kernel-modules) - figuring out a stable binary interface aint that hard.
If you download a binary driver for eg. WindowsXP it will work for any version of it. On Linux you need to download or compile a kernelmodule each time the kernel gets patched.

abyssius
April 21st, 2009, 08:05 PM
Linux, even if you’ve got a great distribution and you can argue which one is better or not, still requires a lot more hands-on than somebody who is using Windows. You have to know how to decompile codes and upload data, stuff that the average person, well, they just want a computer.
I don't think this is true at all. (a) You don't have to necessarily "decompile codes" to use Ubuntu.. (b) What data is he talking about uploading? I not aware of any data I've had to upload (c) If he meant to say 'downloading', well you have to know how to download data such as virus / spyware definitions almost on a daily basis to use Windows effectively. I've found Ubuntu to be much less maintenance than Windows.


“From a vendor perspective, Linux is very hard to support because there are so many different versions out there: do we have Eudora, do we have SUSE, do we have Turbo Max?"
Here he has a definite point. This is the core weakness of Linux. Too many cooks spoil the broth. However, Ubuntu has a real chance of reversing this, with marketing and branding. I'd much rather see Ubuntu-branded netbooks, laptops, and desktops with fully-certified hardware and and the superior support structure enjoyed on this forum - rather than a vendor like Lenovo or Asus offering a "Linux" version, which could be Ubuntu or Red Hat, or... etc.etc.

Mr. Picklesworth
April 21st, 2009, 08:11 PM
He says "decompile codes" and "upload stuff", which only kind of makes sense backwards (compiling code and downloading stuff). That tells me this guy is either clueless or fooling us all by speaking in opposites. If the latter is the case, he must also be saying that Linux is good for these traits...

WalmartSniperLX
April 21st, 2009, 08:16 PM
Actually before Ubuntu had this feature, Windows Vista would load up a hardware profile and actually fetch and dl all drivers for your system on the initial install. ;)

**woops that was already covered in page 1. Sorry :P

I do think that the major problem is that companies will only support windows drivers because they're all for profit. All we need is a commercial industry that supports FOSS. Who said you can't charge for FOSS? It's in the GPL; you deffinately can. The only violation is if someone were to relicense it closed source to make a profit.

If only FOSS had the industrial backbone we could see better support from manufacturers. Btw, the Lockheed Martin F35 Lightning II uses Linux :) (thought I would just throw that out there) So we know Linux has potential to have a demand.

**To be honest, I don't think I've had any driver problems in Vista (when I had to install it for clients).

init1
April 21st, 2009, 09:59 PM
Has anyone ever installed Windows fresh from a CD? Driver support? Windows not only has support for nothing by default, it is an annoying big deal to gather driver support.

Funny, my live CD seems to have 1440x900 resolution, sound support, working ethernet card, etc.

Windows by default uses 640x480, no sound, no internet.

If there was no driver CD, how would I get drivers?
True. I would say that in most cases, it's easier to install and configure Ubuntu than XP, since Ubuntu comes with drivers. When I installed Windows on my dad's computer, I had to use a Linux live CD to find and download drivers since it didn't support the NIC by default.

MaxIBoy
April 21st, 2009, 10:16 PM
Here he has a definite point. This is the core weakness of Linux. Too many cooks spoil the broth. I maintain that this is the core strength of Linux.

In terms of commonly used operating systems, Linux distros have:


The fastest, cleanest, most minimalist operating system
The operating system with the most functionality
The most customize-able system
The most functional system "out of the box"
The most usable for non-technical users
The most empowering for power users


No operating system is capable of having all these traits at once, as they blatantly conflict with each other Microsoft made a certain set of compromises in Windows, Apple make a different set of compromises with OS X, but we don't have to compromise at all. Linux is the most powerful and the most easy, all at the same time; there need be no compromise. You want to focus on the "easy" part? Go for Mint or Puppy. You want to focus on the "powerful" part? You can go for Arch. You can make an "easy" distro almost as powerful by moving past the outer layers of the user experience, but you can't get all the way there. The variety is a strength.

abyssius
April 21st, 2009, 10:23 PM
True. I would say that in most cases, it's easier to install and configure Ubuntu than XP, since Ubuntu comes with drivers. When I installed Windows on my dad's computer, I had to use a Linux live CD to find and download drivers since it didn't support the NIC by default.

Unlike Ubuntu, you can't simply download a Windows iso that's refreshed every six months. So if you purchased your XP disc a few years ago, how can you expect that CD to have the driver for a hardware device that didn't even exist when the CD was manufactured? When you buy a new hardware device, it comes with the windows driver and instructions on how to use it. If the NIC is built into the motherboard, then the motherboard CD has the necessary drivers. That's not too tough.

abyssius
April 21st, 2009, 11:05 PM
I maintain that this is the core strength of Linux.

In terms of commonly used operating systems, Linux distros have:


The fastest, cleanest, most minimalist operating system
The operating system with the most functionality
The most customize-able system
The most functional system "out of the box"
The most usable for non-technical users
The most empowering for power users


No operating system is capable of having all these traits at once, as they blatantly conflict with each other Microsoft made a certain set of compromises in Windows, Apple make a different set of compromises with OS X, but we don't have to compromise at all. Linux is the most powerful and the most easy, all at the same time; there need be no compromise. You want to focus on the "easy" part? Go for Mint or Puppy. You want to focus on the "powerful" part? You can go for Arch. You can make an "easy" distro almost as powerful by moving past the outer layers of the user experience, but you can't get all the way there. The variety is a strength.

Everything you say is accurate and cannot be argued with. However, the point of the article cited in this thread is that 'Linux' will never become a 'mainstream' operating system to compete with Microsoft or Apple.

Although I disagree with some of the cliché Linux comments the author presented, I agree with him that 'Linux' considered generically to encompass the many flavours (some of which you mention) cannot become competitive with the proprietary OS'es because there are too many to choose from.

You simply can't sell your points to the general public. The average computer user is more interested in using their computer as an 'appliance'. That means - turn it on. Log on to the Internet. Get email. Capture digital photos. Maybe, write a letter - send it to the printer. Concepts like 'minimalist' 'fastest' etcetera aren't in their vocabulary. They don't have the background to measure those concepts.

Therefore, I propose that only one distro become the one that satisfies their specific need. With the confusion of multiple choices removed, marketers can focus on a single brand to promote. IMO, of all the distros out there, Ubuntu has the most traction right now. Therefore, I propose that Ubuntu be the one that introduces Linux-based Operating Systems to the 'masses'. Arch will still be around for those whose focus is 'power usage' 'compiling' 'minimalism' 'command-line' etc. etc. In general, Arch users aren't concerned with such things as marketing to the general public - and it is a fact that the majority of computer users nowadays don't possess the desire to explore the intricacies of the technology.

ELD
April 22nd, 2009, 12:12 AM
I was just about to post about the article it links to.

I get really annoyed when people talk such junk about Linux!

The amount of distros excuse is bullcrap, games like quake 4, doom 3 etc all high profile games get it right. There has been a few discussions on this and from what i heard companies can easily supply what they need it to run with their software. So that excuse is not valid at all.



“Linus needs to get to the point where if you want to plug something in, Linux loads the driver and it just works."
Is this guy a complete idiot or what? Forgive me but i have been able to have ubuntu recognise my wireless and graphics and find me the drivers easily for a few versions now...and that is a long time, and a million times easier than it is to get them going on XP!



Again, software seems to be his weak spot:

"I'm tired of losing vertical space, and I am about to make a drastic change to the way I run Windows. Starting later this year when I run Windows 7, I'm going to start positioning my Task Bar on the left hand side of my screen." Drastic? Mmkay.


Haha that is funny!

drawkcab
April 22nd, 2009, 12:42 AM
From a vendor perspective, Linux is very hard to support because there are so many different versions out there: do we have Eudora, do we have SUSE, do we have Turbo Max?

This is my favorite. ^^^

This is what happens when you let marketers run things. :(

NightwishFan
April 22nd, 2009, 04:24 PM
Linux has seen excellent adoption lately, though. I have "converted" about 8 people (i know personally) already.

I think we will see more adoption, especially if we get game ports and vendor support.

JK3mp
April 22nd, 2009, 04:39 PM
Has anyone ever installed Windows fresh from a CD? Driver support? Windows not only has support for nothing by default, it is an annoying big deal to gather driver support.

Funny, my live CD seems to have 1440x900 resolution, sound support, working ethernet card, etc.

Windows by default uses 640x480, no sound, no internet.

If there was no driver CD, how would I get drivers?

I have several times and its very annoying to have to install the network drivers off a my flash drive each time. Really shows off the support on Linux distributions

adamlau
April 22nd, 2009, 05:36 PM
Nothing but good things to say about Lenovo, the four notebooks I installed various distros across went smoothly and are up and running as I type.

Sukarn
April 22nd, 2009, 07:48 PM
Nothing but good things to say about Lenovo, the four notebooks I installed various distros across went smoothly and are up and running as I type.

The discussion here is centered more about what the company knows about Linux and their bundling Linux on their systems, not how smooth it is to install Linux on Lenovo machines.