What do you think would happen if money were abolished?

[Peasantoid]

What the title says...

It's an interesting idea and I wonder if it would work. Humanity survived before money, so it might be possible to retrace our steps. Theoretically, ubuntu (the philosophy, not the OS) eliminates the need for it, but in practice, it doesn't work like that.

[lisati]

We'd probably adjust and find other ways of recognising value and hopefully keep things fair.

The change wouldn't happen over night - Wall Street, for example, would need a major readjustment in what the businesses it's known for do.

People who think that money is a root of evil might celebrate, others who think that the love of money is the problem are likely to adjust more easily.

[speedwell68]

Well, people would be poorer for a start.:D

[Peasantoid]

@lisati

All valid points. Removing the currency system all at once would cause all sorts of problems with the economy (but then, we wouldn't need one if we didn't have money, would we?). We'd need to start out slow, making more and more things free, and then hopefully that would spread to the rest of the world.

Perhaps a system of trading wanted items between parties could take its place, since by itself, money is completely useless. People only "need" it because they can use it to sustain themselves, but if it didn't exist, they wouldn't have to pay to do so...

Circular reasoning, anyone?

@speedwell68

True. But remember, money is what defines "poor". ;)

[joshdudeha]

I've always wondered this.
Apparently the world wouldn't be able to cope, it just wouldn't work (mum)

But I don't know.
Surely it would be replaced with some other kind of value.
You wouldn't really be able to abolish something like money.


I don't know, it requires a lot of thinking.. which I'm unable to do in my current tired state.
;)

[days_of_ruin]

lol. worst. idea. ever.

[hardyn]

we would just return to trading in livestock, services, or other hard goods... money in some form will always exist.

[doas777]

assuming that we have fusion and MA reactors, and matter replicators, then we'll have a StarTrek-style utopian existance.

what use is money or even value, if there is no such thing as scarcity of resources? kinda makes the supply/demand of capitalism moot, thus rendering it obsolete.

you gotta have hope, to see a better future. if you can't see it, then you can't make it.

best regards.
franklin

[joshdudeha]

we would just return to trading in livestock, services, or other hard goods... money in some form will always exist.

I agree.
You'll never get out of the mindset of trading, its human nature?

[Peasantoid]

we would just return to trading in livestock, services, or other hard goods... money in some form will always exist.
Also true, but hard trading actually gives both parties something they want; not just the embodiment of a concept that, logically speaking, hasn't got a leg on which to stand.


lol. worst. idea. ever.
Care to elaborate?

[zekopeko]

I agree.
You'll never get out of the mindset of trading, its human nature?

more like need to efficiently produce good and thereby ease the energy required to satisfy our basic needs like food and shelter.

and abolishing money is the stupidest idea i have heard in a long while outside of digg.

money is an evolutionary need to ease trading and production of basic goods. the need for money evolved for 1000's of years and thinking that it's useless is a sign of arrogance.

[Peasantoid]

and abolishing money is the stupidest idea i have heard in a long while outside of digg.
...
the need for money evolved for 1000's of years and thinking that it's useless is a sign of arrogance.
(emphasis mine)

"the stupidest idea"
Is there something fundamentally wrong with replacing money — a commodity entirely useless by itself — with something that can actually be used for a purpose, such as bartering?

"thinking that it's useless is a sign of arrogance"
Excuse me? I never said money was useless. It has its uses — I just think it should be replaced, that's all.

You have a right to free speech, but aren't you being rather aggressive?

[days_of_ruin]

money = bartering++

[Peasantoid]

money = bartering++
Again... Why do you think so?

[hardyn]

money is nothing more than a way for people to trade that could not otherwise directly trade.

a vegitarian plumber is not going to want to be get paid in meat for fixing the butchers sink; thus they use a form of credit, cash.

money is not the source of greedyness, thats greedyness and human nature.

[doas777]

Again... Why do you think so?

money trade is a anthropomorphic improvement upon barter, in that it is universable. you can apply money to all purchases. you don't have to look for someone who just happens to has the sugar you need, for the pig you have.

Money also allows heirarchal employement structures (a store owner hiring employees to be clerks for instance). an employer in a barter economy could only recompense their employees with their product, so if you work at a slate quarry, you would get paid with slate. you would then try to give it to the roofer, but all he can offer you is roofing services, and that does not put chicken and veggies on the table. scale is also a problem, because it would be harder to engage in any operations of scope without many employees, so the slate quarry may not even exist.

[Peasantoid]

money is nothing more than a way for people to trade that could not otherwise directly trade.
Hmm, good point. How else would you order something online? You're not going to travel to Russia or wherever it's being sold and personally deliver fourteen ducks to the seller...

Once we develop teleportation technology, of course, that limitation goes out the window. :)'


money trade is a anthropomorphic improvement upon barter, in that it is universable. you can apply money to all purchases. you don't have to look for someone who just happens to has the sugar you need, for the pig you have.

Money also allows heirarchal employement structures (a store owner hiring employees to be clerks for instance). an employer in a barter economy could only recompense their employees with their product, so if you work at a slate quarry, you would get paid with slate. you would then try to give it to the roofer, but all he can offer you is roofing services, and that does not put chicken and veggies on the table. scale is also a problem, because it would be harder to engage in any operations of scope without many employees, so the slate quarry may not even exist.
Yeah...unfortunately. I suppose money is a useful thing. We shouldn't need it — but we do. It shouldn't cause people misery when they lack it — but it does.

[zekopeko]

(emphasis mine)

"the stupidest idea"
Is there something fundamentally wrong with replacing money — a commodity entirely useless by itself — with something that can actually be used for a purpose, such as bartering?

"thinking that it's useless is a sign of arrogance"
Excuse me? I never said money was useless. It has its uses — I just think it should be replaced, that's all.

You have a right to free speech, but aren't you being rather aggressive?

money isn't a commodity by it self. it's merely a simplification of the whole bartering process. and by arogance i meant:
money isn't something that was up in place overnight. it evolved over 1000s of year because there was a need for it.

sorry but i don't want to have to bring a cow to the shop to get a new computer. and then you can tell me: "well why not replace the cow with something else that is more valuable but less in size? and then you can replace that other valuable with another and another and after 100s of years you come to the conclusion "why not simply have a universal tool for trading (hint: money) ?"

[lykwydchykyn]

Also true, but hard trading actually gives both parties something they want; not just the embodiment of a concept that, logically speaking, hasn't got a leg on which to stand.


What happens if you need something I've got, but you've got nothing I need? You have to determine what I need, find someone who both (a) has what I need and (b) needs what you've got. Then you have to trade with them, and then get back to me and hope I still need what you have now acquired.

Having money as an intermediary allows me to trade what you need from me for a generic representation of value which I can subsequently trade for whatever I need without involving any third parties. Seems to me that makes us all more free to do business.

Now, if the OP is talking about abolishing the concept of property along with money, that's another issue...

[Peasantoid]

Now, if the OP is talking about abolishing the concept of property along with money, that's another issue...
People have tried that in the past and it didn't work out so well. Maybe they just did it wrong?

[swoll1980]

Money is worthless. I really wish they would get rid of it. Money's the reason for half the problems in the economy today. If it were to go away, we would simply trade the things that the money is supposedly representing. Precious metals, commodities like fruit, veggies, and livestock, manufactured goods, and so on.

[zekopeko]

to put and end to this thread

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money

follow the beautiful wiki links to parts unexplored....

[chucky chuckaluck]

money is a much better system than bartering. it allows for trade between people who have nothing to offer directly to each other. money is not evil. it's convenience. artificially messing with its value is when evil steps in.

[swoll1980]

money is a much better system than bartering. it allows for trade between people who have nothing to offer directly to each other.

That's what precious metals are for.

[Peasantoid]

artificially messing with its value is when evil steps in.
Related problem: inflation. Cows can't get inflated (as a commodity, not literally) unless they want to be, i.e. breeding.

Animals, of course, are not well-known for controlling their sex drives... :|

[Peasantoid]

to put and end to this thread
Why would you want to put an end to it? It's an interesting topic that bears discussing.

You tryin' to abridge mah free speech, foo'? ;)

[edit] Crap, double-posted.

[swoll1980]

people without goods to trade can also trade services.

[doas777]

Hmm, good point. How else would you order something online? You're not going to travel to Russia or wherever it's being sold and personally deliver fourteen ducks to the seller...

Once we develop teleportation technology, of course, that limitation goes out the window. :)'


Yeah...unfortunately. I suppose money is a useful thing. We shouldn't need it — but we do. It shouldn't cause people misery when they lack it — but it does.

the best answer is to eliminate scarcity. I know that here in the US midwest, we produce a large portion of the worlds corn, but in many years past, it made economic sense to burn a good part of the yeild, because if they introduced it all onto the market, the supply would outweigh demand at the price it would garner if there were less available. so to preserve price, instead of just selling more product at a more affordable price, they reduced the supply. i'm not entirely sure how much is wasted now that corn ethanol is required in all gas in the US now.

another answer is to ensure that economic sense == societal sense. an economy must benefit the vast majority of the society that implements it. an economy is not just something that is, it is an invention that we choose to utilize. if it's malfunctioning, then we did something wrong in the designing, and as responsible designers, we need to deploy a patch.
Regulation attempts to ensure this balence, but when it's being circumvented or limited for unenlightened purposes, it ceases to acheive its goals.

[hardyn]

Related problem: inflation. Cows can't get inflated (as a commodity, not literally) unless they want to be, i.e. breeding.

Animals, of course, are not well-known for controlling their sex drives... :|

People are just animals; were not any good at controlling sex drive either.

[zekopeko]

That's what precious metals are for.

please don't tell me you believe in that. it was tried before. and people can to the conclusion that lugging around 20kgs of gold isn't the best of ideas.

and do please explain how will you satisfy economic growth with only limited amount of precious metal?

and to replay to your previous post:
money isn't the problem of this economic crisis. bad fiscal policies, lax government regulation, corruption, war on terror and simply humand greed.

[doas777]

Cows can't become inflated because they have real value. If they found a way to mass produce cows, that would be a great thing.

any resource can become inflated, if its supply or demand changes dramatically.

[Swagman]

If everything was free there would be considerably less crime.

Free you say ?

Yup.

Say.. from the age of 17 everyone works a 48 hour week with 30 days hol per annum retiring at 60 and everything is free.

Why would you want paying for anything if it's free ?

Reason.. Because there's always some greedy scummer who wants better/bigger/shinier than someone else.

It's called perfect communism. Except it doesn't work because those in power want more than anyone else !!

edit

Or lazy-er !!

[days_of_ruin]

True. But remember, money is what defines "poor". ;)

If I owned ten thousand cows would I be poor?

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

There were a lot of resonses to this thread in a short period of time. I hope I am not repeating something someone has already stated. :)

Humanity did survive before the monetary system. However...

In a barter system, I can perform a service in exchange for a service provided by another person.

What happens if the other person does not provide a service I need? Well, then no deal is made.

The evolution of Money provided an advantage. If I can have a "token" that represents a service I provide, I can exchange that "token" for a service from someone other that the person I originally provided a service to. And the other person can take their service ("token") to someone else and exchange it for I service I do not provide.

Money is the "token".

[days_of_ruin]

If everything was free there would be considerably less crime.

Free you say ?

Yup.

Say.. from the age of 17 everyone works a 48 hour week with 30 days hol per annum retiring at 60 and everything is free.

Why would you want paying for anything if it's free ?

Reason.. Because there's always some greedy scummer who wants better/bigger/shinier than someone else.

It's called perfect communism. Except it doesn't work because those in power want more than anyone else !!

And if it worked you wouldn't be using a computer right now.
If everyone is working who is inventing stuff?

[swoll1980]

please don't tell me you believe in that. it was tried before. and people can to the conclusion that lugging around 20kgs of gold isn't the best of ideas.

and do please explain how will you satisfy economic growth with only limited amount of precious metal?

and to replay to your previous post:
money isn't the problem of this economic crisis. bad fiscal policies, lax government regulation, corruption, war on terror and simply humand greed.

Explain to me how pumping out a bunch of worthless money helps the economy grow. All it does is lowers the worth of the money in my pocket. Since the wages never go up. the average person makes less money every year. When my father was a child, an American family could send one person to work, for 32 hours a week, and live the dream. Now it takes two incomes, section 8 vouchers, and a food stamp card just to survive. That's not growth in my opinion.

[Swagman]

And if it worked you wouldn't be using a computer right now.
If everyone is working who is inventing stuff?

Why would people stop inventing if everything was free ?

[lisati]

There were a lot of resonses to this thread in a short period of time. I hope I am not repeating something someone has already stated. :)

Humanity did survive before the monetary system. However...

In a barter system, I can perform a service in exchange for a service provided by another person.

What happens if the other person does not provide a service I need? Well, then no deal is made.

The evolution of Money provided an advantage. If I can have a "token" that represents a service I provide, I can exchange that "token" for a service from someone other that the person I originally provided a service to. And the other person can take their service ("token") to someone else and exchange it for I service I do not provide.

Money is the "token".

One of the ideas I've seen from time to time is "green money", a variation of a barter system. The basic idea is when you sign up for the scheme, you bring skills that might be of value to someone else, which you can use to "pay" for things other group members do for you or provide you with.

[days_of_ruin]

Explain to me how pumping out a bunch of worthless money helps the economy grow. All it does is lowers the worth of the money in my pocket. Since the wages never go up. the average person makes less money every year. When my father was a child, an American family could send one person to work, for 32 hours a week, and live the dream. Now it takes two incomes, section 8 vouchers, and a food stamp card just to survive. That's not growth in my opinion.

Why does the price of gold change? Because its really a token, but with more value then paper.

[swoll1980]

Why does the price of gold change? Because its really a token, but with more value then paper.

The price of gold doesn't change. The value of the moneys it's compared to changes. Throughout time an oz. of gold has always been able to get you the same amount of stuff, even today,

[days_of_ruin]

Why would people stop inventing if everything was free ?

Because your weekend tinkerer wouldn't have the time or knowledge
to invent anything as complex as computers. It took a lot of companies and billions in investment to get technology to where it is today.

[swoll1980]

any resource can become inflated, if its supply or demand changes dramatically.

I can't think of any realistic situation in which a cow would become worthless.

[Swagman]

I disagree

People would still try and find better ways of doing things.. Have hobbies etc.

We have been preconditioned to believe money is the only way.

[swoll1980]

I disagree

People would still try and find better ways of doing things.. Have hobbies etc.

We have been preconditioned to believe money is the only way.

Man traded with each other, and managed fine for tens of thousands of years w/o paper money.

[doas777]

Explain to me how pumping out a bunch of worthless money helps the economy grow. All it does is lowers the worth of the money in my pocket. Since the wages never go up. the average person makes less money every year. When my father was a child, an American family could send one person to work, for 32 hours a week, and live the dream. Now it takes two incomes, section 8 vouchers, and a food stamp card just to survive. That's not growth in my opinion.

you have a good point, and your statement speaks to a couple of phenoma that I have observed. the first is increased consolidation of wealth. in the last few decades, the gap between poor and wealthy has been growing again at an incredible rate. many attribute this to shrinkage of the American middle class, but this seems shortsighted to me. 99% of the resources in the world are controlled by less than 1% of the people.

the other is the concept of "infinite growth potential" that is always assumed in capitalistic theory. I don't believe that it is possible to continue to constantly find things to monetize. it seems like they just want to charge for things that had been free. I particularly dislike the idea of shifting from purchasing a thing, to purchasing a license to use the thing.

[days_of_ruin]

The price of gold doesn't change. The value of the moneys it's compared to changes. Throughout time an oz. of gold has always been able to get you the same amount of stuff, even today,

If the supply/demand of any commodity changes you are not going to get the same amount with an oz of gold.

[tokico]

That would ruin the world as we know it.

Using an unified currency in all the countries in the world... That would solve almost all economy problems.

[days_of_ruin]

I can't think of any realistic situation in which a cow would become worthless.

mad cow anyone?

[doas777]

I can't think of any realistic situation in which a cow would become worthless.

simple, surround yourself with cows.

it's hard to by a pack a cigarettes with a cow. how do you make change?

[Peasantoid]

how do you make change?
Beef? ;)

[swoll1980]

If the supply/demand of any commodity changes you are not going to get the same amount with an oz of gold.

The supply never changes. There's only so much gold in the world, no more, no less. Since gold is a valued commodity the demand will always be there. As I said through out history gold has maintained a consistent value.

[sekinto]

We have a really messed up monetary system, money represents someone's debt rather than actual value. We definitely need some type of monetary system these days because it makes trade much easier and our economies are complex, but money should be created a different way.

Relevant Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8)

[swoll1980]

mad cow anyone?

Were talking about commodities. The fact that your cow's healthy is implied. A diseased cow isn't a commodity.

[doas777]

Beef? ;)

just ride the cow into town, and when you get there, slice off a hunck. then get back on and ride home, right?

remember, currency enables employeers/employees, so without it, you won;t have refridgerator companies, to make you a freezer. if you kill the cow, you have to be able to move the beef within days/hours of butcher.

[swoll1980]

simple, surround yourself with cows.

it's hard to by a pack a cigarettes with a cow. how do you make change?

No you could trade that cow for 100 cartons of cigarettes, and use the cigarettes as small currency.

[doas777]

Were talking about commodities. The fact that your cow's healthy is implied. A diseased cow isn't a commodity.

exactly! poxes like madcow have until recently virtually eliminated the german beef market. a blight on wheat would have the same affect.

[swoll1980]

exactly! poxes like madcow have until recently virtually eliminated the german beef market. a blight on wheat would have the same affect.

We were talking about inflation though. This wouldn't be inflation it would be destruction. I was referring to a change of supply/demand making a cow worthless. I just can't see how a cow could become inflated.

[doas777]

We were talking about inflation though. This wouldn't be inflation it would be destruction. I was referring to a change of supply/demand making a cow worthless. I just can't see how a cow could become inflated.

so what if a rancher from another district starts doing his cattle run through your town? the supply increases dramatically, and he can undercut yoru prices by volume. your one cow now seems paltry to those who would buy it from you.

or lets try corn. you grow corn, and so do all your neighbors. is corn worth much when purchasing the goods you need? since the supply is high, the demand is low, and the price is likewise.

[swoll1980]

so what if a rancher from another district starts doing his cattle run through your town? the supply increases dramatically, and he can undercut yoru prices by volume. your one cow now seems paltry to those who would buy it from you.

or lets try corn. you grow corn, and so do all your neighbors. is corn worth much when purchasing the goods you need?

You sell you cow to someone somewhere else.

[doas777]

You sell you cow to someone somewhere else.

so you'll climb up on your cow, and ride it down the road, 5 days and 4 nights to the first cow-less village, and sell it for a hundred cartons of cigarettes. then you walk 6 days and 5 nights back home.

the fact of the matter is, before money took off, everyone lived in small groups (villages or whatever) and subsisted as a group, in more of what would be considered of an egalitarian commune. barter just doesn't scale well.

Don't get me wrong, i don't particularly like our current econimic system, because I don't think it really meets our goals from a societal perspective. personally I think food, shelter, and healthcare for all members of a given society is the first significant milestone of its advancement. if you can't do that, then your probably doing something wrong. I perfer cooperation to competition when it comes to economic matters.

[swoll1980]

so you'll climb up on your cow, and ride it down the road, 5 days and 4 nights to the first cow-less village, and sell it for a hundred cartons of cigarettes. then you walk 6 days and 5 nights back home.


No, lol I would throw her in the back of the truck. This isn't the 1800s, you know?

[doas777]

No, lol I would throw her in the back of the truck. This isn't the 1800s, you know?

ok, so what do the workers at the truck manufacturers factory get paid in?

[days_of_ruin]

The supply never changes. There's only so much gold in the world, no more, no less. Since gold is a valued commodity the demand will always be there. As I said through out history gold has maintained a consistent value.

I meant the supply of every besides gold. In a famine gold isn't worth very much.

[tom66]

ok, so what do the workers at the truck manufacturers factory get paid in?

Cows?

[doas777]

@Tom: lol!

[0per4t0r]

We'd go back to a simpler system of bartering, and eventually we'd probably develop a universal trading item (currency) due to people not having the right thing to trade.
Although there would be much less crime and corruption, which I think is a good idea.

(I think Photoshop would probably cost ten oxen :P or maybe more :O)

[tuxsheadache]

The loss of money would lead to panic, as people are used to a capitalistic society where money is one of the most important things linked to success.
Which is where robots come in.
If robots did all the jobs for people, and we had to do nothing to feed and clothe ourselves, and we had a utopian world where when a new invention came out everyone could have one, wouldn't all out problems be solved?

[swoll1980]

ok, so what do the workers at the truck manufacturers factory get paid in?

They would trade a car for what ever they needed. What you don't understand is that I don't have to prove that the barter system works. It's already been used for the entire history of mankind up until a couple hundred years ago. Money is the system that isn't proven, and keeps running into problems.

[swoll1980]

I meant the supply of every besides gold. In a famine gold isn't worth very much.

In a depression gold is worth more, compared to the money. Really it's worth the same it's just being compared to something that has fake value, so the "price" goes up. Why do you think you see those ads on tv everyday wanting to buy your gold? Because they know the gold will keep the value, and that money they're giving you wont.

[myusername]

everything would be based on popularity, looks, and racism

[MikeTheC]

I agree.
You'll never get out of the mindset of trading, its human nature?

Well, without trading, how do you propose exactly to get the physical things you want or need but don't have?

[Cybie257]

Perhaps a system of trading wanted items between parties could take its place, since by itself, money is completely useless. People only "need" it because they can use it to sustain themselves, but if it didn't exist, they wouldn't have to pay to do so...

Circular reasoning, anyone?

@speedwell68

True. But remember, money is what defines "poor". ;)


It's called bartering and that's what was done in the past. Money was created to make trading/bartering easier. Money has no value on it's own. The value comes from what the persons trade is worth, which most of today is about trading labor. That's why we get a paycheck. If things were like they were way back when, come Friday afternoon, you might get a loaf of bread and some other items.

Money is just easier to exchange. It has no less or no more value than the items you possess. If there was no money, then you'd be hearing stories about Armed robberies for items vs cash.

Personally, though, I'd like to see money go away. There is too much greed for it. Plus, AND I AM NOT a bible thumper in any way, nor do I practice any religion.. BUT, there is a verse within the bible that says it so perfectly:

"For the LOVE of money is the root of all evil"

Not Money itself, but the love of it.

My thoughts,
-Cybie

[MikeTheC]

everything would be based on popularity, looks, and racism

And evidently, according to a certain newscaster (who shall remain nameless) there's plenty of that right now, so I guess it wouldn't be a very valuable commodity.

[doas777]

They would trade a car for what ever they needed. What you don't understand is that I don't have to prove that the barter system works. It's already been used for the entire history of mankind up until a couple hundred years ago. Money is the system that isn't proven, and keeps running into problems.

You are quite correct, you need prove nothing, and as proving anything is an impossibility (science can only disprove), it would be silly to expect it of you. if i made you feel that it was necessary, I apologize. I was looking for an argument, but not an antagonistic one.

My assertion is simply that barter does not scale well. it is a feasible option for small scale societies (often called subsistence societies). It would be very hard to maintain the standard American lifestyle based purely on barter.

[swoll1980]

You are quite correct, you need prove nothing, and as proving anything is an impossibility (science can only disprove), it would be silly to expect it of you. if i made you feel that it was necessary, I apologize. I was looking for an argument, but not an antagonistic one.

My assertion is simply that barter does not scale well. it is a feasible option for small scale societies (often called subsistence societies). It would be very hard to maintain the standard American lifestyle based purely on barter.

No it doesn't scale well, and it would be an inconvenience to use real trade. I don't think money is holding up to growth very well either though, and working twice as hard for half as much seems extremely inconvenient as well. Maybe the problem is growth in general, and there is no good solution.

[shadylookin]

Explain to me how pumping out a bunch of worthless money helps the economy grow. All it does is lowers the worth of the money in my pocket. Since the wages never go up. the average person makes less money every year. When my father was a child, an American family could send one person to work, for 32 hours a week, and live the dream. Now it takes two incomes, section 8 vouchers, and a food stamp card just to survive. That's not growth in my opinion.

I'm pretty sure the standard work week in the US was never 32 hours. In the past they didn't have the social safetynets in the first place so no one could take them. Regardless unless your father worked before the great depression he was never under the gold standard either.

The reason why metals are bad for an expanding economy is that their supply rarely increases. Lets say your village has 100 people and you have 100 pieces of gold now lets say your village increases to 10000 people and you still only have 100 pieces of gold. Now trading is diminished because there's not enough currency to engage in trading.

Another note is that inflation is good in small doses. It encourages people to reinvest the money therefore expanding the economy instead of holding on to it and letting it lose value.


The price of gold doesn't change. The value of the moneys it's compared to changes. Throughout time an oz. of gold has always been able to get you the same amount of stuff, even today,

lol or you could say the value of money never changes just the value of gold


Man traded with each other, and managed fine for tens of thousands of years w/o paper money.

Humans can survive under bad conditions doesn't mean it's what we should strive for


The supply never changes. There's only so much gold in the world, no more, no less. Since gold is a valued commodity the demand will always be there. As I said through out history gold has maintained a consistent value.

until the recent recession gold was on the decline. Gold is not above the laws of supply and demand. You're of course forgetting that more gold can be discovered


They would trade a car for what ever they needed. What you don't understand is that I don't have to prove that the barter system works. It's already been used for the entire history of mankind up until a couple hundred years ago. Money is the system that isn't proven, and keeps running into problems.

Money isn't running into problems economies always go through cycles and this recession will end and we'll be back in business


In a depression gold is worth more, compared to the money. Really it's worth the same it's just being compared to something that has fake value, so the "price" goes up. Why do you think you see those ads on tv everyday wanting to buy your gold? Because they know the gold will keep the value, and that money they're giving you wont.

Gold doesn't really have any tangible value. It looks pretty but just like paper you can't eat it.


No it doesn't scale well, and it would be an inconvenience to use real trade. I don't think money is holding up to growth very well either though, and working twice as hard for half as much seems extremely inconvenient as well. Maybe the problem is growth in general, and there is no good solution.

I think you're just relying on anecdotal evidence. Just because your pops was lucky most sane people wouldn't trade today for the past.

[dragos240]

This would happen:
Tehe... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FXMYsMvs1A)
Horray for the collapse of civilization!

[swoll1980]

I'm pretty sure the standard work week in the US was never 32 hours. In the past they didn't have the social safetynets in the first place so no one could take them. Regardless unless your father worked before the great depression he was never under the gold standard either.

The reason why metals are bad for an expanding economy is that their supply rarely increases. Lets say your village has 100 people and you have 100 pieces of gold now lets say your village increases to 10000 people and you still only have 100 pieces of gold. Now trading is diminished because there's not enough currency to engage in trading.

Another note is that inflation is good in small doses. It encourages people to reinvest the money therefore expanding the economy instead of holding on to it and letting it lose value.



lol or you could say the value of money never changes just the value of gold



Humans can survive under bad conditions doesn't mean it's what we should strive for



until the recent recession gold was on the decline. Gold is not above the laws of supply and demand. You're of course forgetting that more gold can be discovered



Money isn't running into problems economies always go through cycles and this recession will end and we'll be back in business



Gold doesn't really have any tangible value. It looks pretty but just like paper you can't eat it.



I think you're just relying on anecdotal evidence. Just because your pops was lucky most sane people wouldn't trade today for the past.

The value of gold wasn't on the decline, the money was worth more. Gold is an excellent conductor, that is where it gets it's value not because it's pretty. Platinum looks just like silver, but is worth more than gold, why do you think that is? The economy isn't my problem inflation of paper money is. My grandfather worked in a factory 7 hours a day + an hour lunch 32 hours of work though he was gone 40. He made enough from that job to buy a house, car, and everything else he needed, and retired with tens of thousands of dollars in the bank. The prices of goods in the US have gone up 300% in the last 15 years, the minimum wage went up 20% in the same time. It's not that the value of a gallon of milk has gone up, it's the value of the dollar has gone down. Having to use the barter system isn't "surviving through bad times" that's the plague, or the crusades.

[rucadulu]

As value is but the embodiment of socially necessary labour, commodities exchange with each other in proportion to the labour quanta they contain. This is true for the exchange of iron against wheat, as it is true for the exchange of iron against gold or silver.

Karl Marx.

Even the Father of Communism recognized that money was just another form of fair trade to benefit both parts. Money is not bad or the source of evil it just another means for trading so that one can get want the need and want to live. I mean come would drag your cow to the store and expect the clerk to take it as payment for your television. This is really not partical thus we created money many generations ago to help simplify the means by which we trade. Our socitity could not continue to fuction without some form of currency it would just not be partical.

[lykwydchykyn]

It's worth pointing out that the existance and even predominance of the use of money in no way precludes the practice of bartering. It is always an option if one finds it preferable.

[Frak]

It'd be cool, but it is impossible to abolish monetary value.

[swoll1980]

[B] [I]As value is but the embodiment of socially necessary labour, commodities exchange with each other in proportion to the labour quanta they contain. This is true for the exchange of iron against wheat, as it is true for the exchange of iron against gold or silver.



I won't dispute the fact that money done right, would work fine, meaning there's only so much money to go around, and there is commodities to back it up. The problem with money is the fact that when ever they need more they just print it up, even if there's no increase in the amount of commodities.

[HammerOfDoubt]

If everything was free there would be considerably less crime.

Free you say ?

Yup.

Say.. from the age of 17 everyone works a 48 hour week with 30 days hol per annum retiring at 60 and everything is free.

Why would you want paying for anything if it's free ?

Reason.. Because there's always some greedy scummer who wants better/bigger/shinier than someone else.

It's called perfect communism. Except it doesn't work because those in power want more than anyone else !!

edit

Or lazy-er !!

So in your system wanting more than others have or not wanting to work as much would be a crime/sin. So basically I have to sacrifice my personal self-driven urges for the good of the collective.

I thought people on this board were supposed to care about freedom.

90% of the responses on this thread are from the kind of people who give the FOSS community a bad name. What a joke. This is the sort of question a smart five year old contemplates when he's learning to think.

[HammerOfDoubt]

I won't dispute the fact that money done right, would work fine, meaning there's only so much money to go around, and there is commodities to back it up. The problem with money is the fact that when ever they need more they just print it up, even if there's no increase in the amount of commodities.

That's the problem with a fiat money system.
I think those on this thread with half a brain should read up on the production-based economic system that was being set up in Germany half a century ago. No one likes to talk about it, even though it is quite brilliant, because Hitler was the one who thought and developed the whole thing. If you can get past that you are in for some interesting reading.

[Frak]

That's the problem with a fiat money system.
I think those on this thread with half a brain should read up on the production-based economic system that was being set up in Germany half a century ago. No one likes to talk about it, even though it is quite brilliant, because Hitler was the one who thought and developed the whole thing. If you can get past that you are in for some interesting reading.
I have studied heavily in economics, but I'd like to hear more about this economic system. The only thing I can recall is that Hitler wanted Germany to be an autarchy. This would be idea so that Germany could fight other nations without prejudice of resources. Other than that, the only other production based economy I can think of is when Reagan switched the Keynsian based economy in the United States to Friedman which failed haaard.

[shadylookin]

The value of gold wasn't on the decline, the money was worth more.

It's really just saying the same thing except that money is more universal than gold so it makes more sense to set money as the standard



Gold is an excellent conductor, that is where it gets it's value not because it's pretty. Platinum looks just like silver, but is worth more than gold, why do you think that is?

copper is a better conductor and significantly cheaper



The economy isn't my problem inflation of paper money is.


The inflation rate is actually fairly low. As I said earlier small amounts of inflation encourages reinvestment into the economy which is good. Stuffing your cash into your mattress is bad for the economy and inflation discourages that behavior.



My grandfather worked in a factory 7 hours a day + an hour lunch 32 hours of work though he was gone 40. He made enough from that job to buy a house, car, and everything else he needed, and retired with tens of thousands of dollars in the bank.

That doable even today assuming you live within your means.



The prices of goods in the US have gone up 300% in the last 15 years, the minimum wage went up 20% in the same time. It's not that the value of a gallon of milk has gone up, it's the value of the dollar has gone down.

Actually A dollar in 1994 is only worth $1.49 so over 15 years the dollar has only inflated nearly 50%

Inflation isn't based on one set of goods. Your milk may have gone up but the cost of your computer significantly decreased. Your gas may have went up in 15 years, but your cell phone went down in price(and it can actually fit in your pocket)

minimum wage in 1995 was $4.25 whereas minimum wage is set to raise to 7.25 in july which is a 70.5% increase



Having to use the barter system isn't "surviving through bad times" that's the plague, or the crusades.

it was abandoned because it was bad

[Gizenshya]

This is a complicated issue... but I will (over)simplify it.

First, it is important to distinguish between money and cash. Cash is purely physical. A dollar bill, change, etc. This is what people generally think of when talking about cash and money. But in financial terms, money is different.

Money, or rather the supply of money in a system, is comprised of physical cash, and what are essentially cash representatives (digital representations of cash, and the like). In other words, money is everything we use to represent the value of everything that has worth (money is a representation of X, not X itself). Cash is only a small percentage of the actual money supply. Cash just provides liquidity for physical cash transactions on primarily small-scale transactions (basic stuff like food, electronics, books, etc.).

Some of the very basic original uses have been covered already. Not everyone will take bread for everything, and you can't save bread indefinitely, etc. But there is a LOT more to it than that!

Money and banks help with economic growth exponentially. We see this with inflation. If we have inflation, we have growth. This means that people are buying things with money that doesn't exist. This is not a bad thing. It is essential.

There are examples of societies (that I won't name) that would be very successful if they had banks, but they do not. They mock certain races for being greedy (out of jealousy). But, the truth is, when their natural resources dry up, there will be no mechanism for them to expand, and they will continue to live in poverty-- and they will stay there, stagnant, just like they had been in the centuries before their resources were worth anything. Money without banks is like gasoline without an engine.

But, this added boost to (well... it helps EVERYTHING) does not come without drawbacks. Depending on how regulated it is, it can be quite unstable. It can never be as stable as a system without banking. Things like the Great Depression, and economic collapses of countries throughout history show us the dangers. But, with each disaster, new things are learned. What generally happens is we hit a huge problem that we missed, the economy is damaged temporarily, or collapses. From that, knowledge is gained, and that problem will probably not hurt future economies. Then, after adopting the new knowledge, after a while, it passes the point where the last problem came up. Fine so far, but then it hits a new problem that can only happen once an economy gets more advanced than that, and it happens again. Each time, the economy rebounds (or is rebuilt) more stable, and lasts longer.

An example of how we manage economic stability is below (and it also shows how banks and money help our growth-- their importance). This is the result of problems of economies in the past, and we're making changes to some of the basics (for example: mark-to-market accounting practices) already with what we've learned from the recession we're currently in.

In the US, the Fed Reserve controls the money supply. They do this through the use of 3 basic 'tools of monetary policy (http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/fomc.htm).' They are open-market operations, the discount rate, and reserve requirements.

The Discount rate is the rate at which banks can borrow (emergency) money from (the government). They don't actually borrow money, because it is only for emergencies. If they did, it would be a huge red flag, and it would perpetuate their downfall. But, it still does have a very strong correlation with economic activity (interest rates, velocity, etc.). Ahh yes, Velocity (see below). A derivative of this is used for setting rates on Treasury notes (T-bills). But, in theory, it changes consumer rates by changing commercial rates. This allows banks to keep the spread the same (spread is the difference in a bank's borrowing and loaning rates-- this is where they get their money... although recently banks are earning more and more from non-interest income, like fees), which keeps profits in line while rates change. This changes consumer prices, and adjusts velocity. Money supply and quantity aren't affected as much (see MV=PQ, below).

Pay very close attention to the MV=PQ!!! A lot of what has been said/argued is directly addressed in this formula.

Most everyone is familiar with the laws of thermodynamics. There is a similar formula in banking/economics (that I like to call the Third Law of Ecodynamics... a little mnemonic device of mine haha). It is MV=PQ.

M is the Money Supply (how much money is in the system).

V is Velocity (the rate (in number per time) at which Money changes hands).

P is Price ( of goods and services in the system).

Q is Quantity (of goods and services in the system).

So, it doesn't take much explanation. Just play with some basic algebra to see how things relate. This is a little more complicated (and accurate...) version of 'all of the goods and services in a system are worth all of the money in a system.'

Another tool of the Fed Reserve is Reserve requirements. This is the amount of funds that a bank is required to have on hand for each deposit (in case people want to withdraw their money). Because of there is no money to withdraw, it could cause panic and a collapse of the financial system. Increasing the requirements forces banks to lend out less money (keep more money in the bank), which slows the economy. and vice versa

It also changes the risk of the system. Fewer (lower) restrictions means more volatility.

The other tool they use is 'open-market operations.' In this, they actually go out in the free market and buy or sell Treasury Bills increase or decrease the money supply. Go back to that formula and play with numbers to see how this affects the economy.

Any change needs to be gradual... a change too fast, or too erratic can be devastating (to see the effects, go turn on the TV... lol). There is a significant amount of guesswork that goes into the decisions.

But, as of late, that system broke down. Reserve requirements are at dangerously low levels (going lower might destabilize the system, and cause collapse). The Discount rate is as low as it can get (they cannot go into negative interest- give money to people who borrow money from them lol). And open-market operations do not work efficiently/well in this situation (they work best in a healthy economy... and exponentially worse in poor economies/recessions).

This is a little off topic, but all this stuff with the TARP and whatnot is completely outside of the scope of normal operations. If this were 70 years ago, the economy would have already collapsed. We have maxed out all of the wiggle room that we have, and are borrowing emergency money just to not die. It is very, very bad.

If you want to know more, google capital-adequacy ratio, reserve requirements, Tiers of capital, Debt-equity ratio, financial leverage, and that should keep you busy for some time. If you are still curious, message me and I'll give you some more terms to look up.

Yeah, it might be a little dangerous... and far more complicated than a non-money system... BUT, look at what REAL physical things (technology, science, manufactured REAL things) that this FIAT money has given us :) We cannot lose investments in technology and science. It cannot collapse. If the economy gets really bad, it might slow or stall for a while, but then it will just pick back up when the economy gets going again. Our buildings will not unbuild themselves. Our lives and history cannot be undone. All of this progress was brought upon by a belief (religion?) in money. But do not forget the validity of what it has brought us. This is the beauty of Banking.

In conclusion, if we didn't have money (and a banking system), we would be nomads riding around on the backs of camels and horses, living off the land. And no, there is no other way.

[jacoblyles]

Specialization of labor would break down. Productivity would crash. A few billion people would starve. The remainder would revert back to a primitive lifestyle.

[Roofdaddy]

Specialization of labor would break down. Productivity would crash. A few billion people would starve. The remainder would revert back to a primitive lifestyle.


Don't sound bad to me.

1. The cave man did it.
2. Capitalism
3. Can't hunt or fish can ya ¿¿

[Grant A.]

Well, I don't really þink þat it would make much of a difference, as people would just start trading items for other items.

Þis can be easily demonstrated in MMORPGs when someone doesn't have money, sees an item þat þey want, and immediately tries to trade items for it.

[doas777]

Throughout the history of mankind and civilization, we've experienced a series of evolutionary steps, of which capitalism is the second-to-latest. Money has played a part in many economic paradigms be it slavery-based, republican, imperial, feudal, mercantile, market, planned, or green.

Money itself is evolving, moving from gold backing, to market base evaluation, and changing from physical to digital as our technology improves.

We didn't move from gold coinage to paper bills overnight, neither shall we move from the money we have to whatever we will choose to use in the future. it may or may not be a unit of value. eventually we may not have need of such things. we shall see, but be assured, you will see it comming, and the vast majority of folks will approve before it obtains any real acceptance.

[bp1509]

d

[Depressed Man]

If money were abolished we would just find some other method to do trading (or go back to before.. trade for resources or mental effort to develop an idea. Basically my corn for your cow).

Now if the resource problem was solved, and we had infinite resources then money and trading wouldn't be an issue cause everyone would have what they need. So physically everything would be set, mentally might be another issue.

[Yvan300]

A lot of people are really corrupt. They'll just find some other material that can be used to trade for value.

And maybe bill gates would shoot himself in the foot, all his $$$$ isn't worth **** anymore :)

[Peasantoid]

And maybe bill gates would shoot himself in the foot, all his $$$$ isn't worth **** anymore :)
Why does everyone hate him so much? Just because he was the CEO of Microsoft?

Anyway, he's a philanthropist now...

[chucky chuckaluck]

If money were abolished we would just find some other method to do trading (or go back to before.. trade for resources or mental effort to develop an idea. Basically my corn for your cow).

but... your corn is for my cow.

[Mister LinOx]

We would most likely return to the old trade system that we once had. Simultaneously to that, there would those trying to establish a new and 'improved' currency/ways to purchase items.
It would probably be pretty interesting to spectate and watch how it all develops.

[doas777]

Why does everyone hate him so much? Just because he was the CEO of Microsoft?

Anyway, he's a philanthropist now...

If you ever get a chance, check out the movie "pirates of silicon valley".
It's a movie, not a documentary, but it's funny and does capture some of the history of modern computing.

[MoebusNet]

I find it interesting that no one yet in this thread has made the assertion that we are witnessing the abolition of the major world currencies.

As an example, the U.S. Treasury used to print large bills (like $1000, $5000 and $10,000 bills) back when gold was $35/oz. Nowadays, gold is going for $870+/oz., everything else costs more in proportion, yet the largest Treasury note circulated is a $100 bill. Unlike earlier Treasury notes, modern currency is no longer redeemable for gold or silver at Federal Reserve Banks. Last Fall, with diesel fuel at $4.59/gallon, it took $100+ to fill up my pickup truck. Cash is becoming less and less useful.

The nice thing about cash is that no hacker, jacker or government official can wipe out my life savings remotely from the comfort of their PC; they have to find and confiscate my cash. Unfortunately, I think we'll see the abolition of national currencies within our lifetimes; replaced by a "universal currency" of some sort that will almost certainly be some type of digital bank balance with no paper changing hands. After all, that is how international trade is carried out now; you don't really think they're sending boatloads of cash back and forth across the world, do you?

[thisllub]

There is a solution to the problems of money and it was probably invented the same day.

IF it is used correctly it can correct the problems of exploitation, accelerate growth, create fairness and build societies.

It is called TAX.

[Frak]

As an example, the U.S. Treasury used to print large bills (like $1000, $5000 and $10,000 bills) back when gold was $35/oz. Nowadays, gold is going for $870+/oz., everything else costs more in proportion, yet the largest Treasury note circulated is a $100 bill. Unlike earlier Treasury notes, modern currency is no longer redeemable for gold or silver at Federal Reserve Banks. Last Fall, with diesel fuel at $4.59/gallon, it took $100+ to fill up my pickup truck. Cash is becoming less and less useful.

For one, it's illegal to have more than a certain amount of money in the US ($10,000 IIRC) on you in physical notes at once. Gold has no importance in our currency. We could dump all the gold in our reserves into the ocean and it wouldn't affect the currency value directly (it would indirectly, of course). Finally, I think most of us are aware that ALL money is fiat. I don't think any currency is gold based anymore. It would be idiotic to do so. Money based on gold isn't purely elastic, and therefore cannot be controlled through interest rates.

[MoebusNet]

Hmmm, I know that $10,000 is the amount above which banks are required to report deposits or withdrawals, and the maximum amount of cash you can carry when entering or leaving the country on travel. I was not aware that there was any limit to the amount of cash you could physically possess. Does that mean that racetracks, casinos and WalMart routinely violate the law? I'll have to check on that one...

[thisllub]

Zimbabwe has abolished money as we know it.

[0akash0]

It would be very nice if all people cared about other people, and everyone did their part in the society, then we wouldn't need any calculations at all. However, this is earth and not heaven, so its practically impossible. Even if you do take "MONEY" out of the whole equation, it would be substituted by something else.

Especially since ALL HUMANS BELIEVE IN INEQUALITY. We all have something better and something worse than other people, we currently measure most obvious things with money. If we didn't have that, we'd do it with something else.

Barter Exchange: (trading one or more items for one or more items having subjectively the same value. Value also being relative) is what this whole economy started with, and we all evolve for a reason.

[k2t0f12d]

Money based on gold isn't purely elastic, and therefore cannot be controlled through interest rates.Explain how this is better then commerce based on money whose value is based on something with real value, or how it could be considered good at all?

[swoll1980]

copper is a better conductor and significantly cheaper



Where on earth did you get that idea from? Gold is a much better conductor. That's why all those expensive, name brand cables have gold connectors.

[Frak]

Does that mean that racetracks, casinos and WalMart routinely violate the law? I'll have to check on that one...

They are not individuals, and they are also allowed to have physical money because they are a business. Me walking on the street is not a business. What if I caught on fire, or somebody stole all the money? How hard would it be for the Federal Reserve to check that? How much would they have to adjust the money supply to meet the lost capitol? One dollar is not a significant amount, but ten/one hundred grand is just enough to cause damage if it happens enough times.


Explain how this is better then commerce based on money whose value is based on something with real value, or how it could be considered good at all?

In simple terms, it's easier to control the swaying of the inflation rate; in difficult terms, take a class on economics.

[CraigPaleo]

More food for thought. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912&hl=en

[pbpersson]

These people are devoted to creating the new world order wherein no one will need money, machines will perform all the work, and humans will be free to explore their true gifts such as music, art, poetry, sculpting, inventing, philosophy, etc.:

http://www.thevenusproject.com/ (http://http://www.thevenusproject.com/)

[tjwoosta]

What the title says...

It's an interesting idea and I wonder if it would work. Humanity survived before money, so it might be possible to retrace our steps. Theoretically, ubuntu (the philosophy, not the OS) eliminates the need for it, but in practice, it doesn't work like that.

if you have some spare time you should watch this film, its about this very topic

its honestly one of the most astonishing videos i have ever watched, but you must watch the whole thing right through to the end to understand what im talking about

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912


EDIT:
lol, i just noticed this video has already been refered to in this thread

i guess that just shows how awesome it is

[Frak]

if you have some spare time you should watch this film, its about this very topic

its honestly one of the most astonishing videos i have ever watched, but you must watch the whole thing right through to the end to understand what im talking about

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912


EDIT:
lol, i just noticed this video has already been refered to in this thread

i guess that just shows how awesome it is
Their second video (addendum) is very polished, especially compared to their first one that was riddled with errors here and there.