About teachers and the english language.

[emshains]

Most of the people here are either in the middle of educating themselves, or already have done that. And, some of you may have found faults in the common education process. I am talking about the idea, that there's always just one correct answer and that there's just one solution to each problem- that's the basic principle my english teacher bases her whole life, I think.

And the ones who suffer are not only the narrow-minded teacher, but also the people around her, and I am one of them. And this sucks.

Although I haven't already passed TOEFL test, I haven't passed more than 4 Cambridge exams, and I still haven't finished the 9th grade, I still think that the way she checks for errors in our tests is just WRONG.

Today, I received an extra part of the test, that I didn't get a grade for. And the task was to fill the gaps in the text with suitable words. And here are the conflicting examples:
1. I wouldn't run "move/walk" around, but cut the wound open and suck the poison out.
2. We will probably be setting (I don't remember the correct example she gave) off to moon for our summer holidays.
3. The scientists may "will" have discovered a cure for most illnesses.
4. My friend, Bill fell asleep while watching TV, and his cigarette fell out of his hand and caught "set" the carpet on fire.
5. Good thing his neighbor called the fire department "fighters" immediately.

So,these are the 5 conflicting examples. This is not a complete replica of the test, but it is as close as I could remember it. The teachers answers are quoted, and they differ from the given answers, but from my point of view, I think they are correct. She told me it was not correct, because those were not the right expression. So, I then googled for each expression, but since english is the most widely known and used language in the internet, it is crippled and deformed through the times, so I want your opinion. I want to know, do you, people who speak english every day, would use the expressions above.

This is not the first time this teacher drives me mad because of her limited perception of the world itself. I hope you will point out any mistakes if you found any. I hope you understood my english.

Thanks for reading!

[Eisenwinter]

Dude, just go on IRC, and you'll learn English.

I learned only the very basic rules and words at school, 98% of my English knowledge comes from being in the vast English-only environment (mostly) that is the Internet.

As for the teacher part:

I took a high school diploma English test, about 3 years ago.

The last part of the test, was an essay. I had to choose a topic that was forced upon me from the list of topics in the page.

So, me being me, naturally, I didn't pick a topic from the page, and started writing my views on society.

This caused me to fail, which is dumb. My essay was perfect, the English used in it, was perfect, it was 100% correct. And yet? they failed me. Because I didn't do something they wanted me to do.

That's the way of school nowdays man, get used to it.
Most teachers (in all subjects) are very narrow minded and closed in the way they think.

[bashveank]

Dude, just go on IRC, and you'll learn English.

I learned only the very basic rules and words at school, 98% of my English knowledge comes from being in the vast English-only environment (mostly) that is the Internet.

Same here. The internet made me a better writer than 90% of the others in my class.

[emshains]

I am not complaining about the quality of the education that is provided by the teacher. I am complaining about her stupidity. She is weird, always putting higher marks if you're a woman. She actually told me, that nobody says:" Caught on fire." But that's what I saw on TV, something like:"And next, a man gets caught on fire while filling his petrol tank," and something like that. All she does is pretend as if I am just talking rubish. This sucks.

[mips]

Dude, just go on IRC, and you'll learn English.


And we see the results of that type of training all the time :cry:

Anyway, http://books.google.co.za/books?id=kWyL1cLf2bgC&pg=PA263&lpg=PA263&dq=%22Caught+on+fire%22+is+the+phrase+correct&source=bl&ots=KRUA_UUQix&sig=0_CRhFOpcmTGFXJ7lKiiimkoduM&hl=en&ei=nLfkSfaXLMG0-Aav_amMCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2#PPA259,M1

[Swagman]

There's correct English and there's Urban English

You use each one to suit the scenario.

[MikeTheC]

1. I wouldn't run "move/walk" around, but cut the wound open and suck the poison out.

I wouldn't move around, but cut the wound open and suck the poison out.

That's because bodily movement of any kind is what's at stake, not just one type of movement.


2. We will probably be setting (I don't remember the correct example she gave) off to moon for our summer holidays.

Not sure about this one. Why would you "moon" for the summer holidays? It sounds like you're missing something important in this sentence.


3. The scientists may "will" have discovered a cure for most illnesses.

The scientists may well have discovered a cure for most illnesses.

Will would not be appropriate because it's not a test of will that's what is at stake in the sentence.



4. My friend, Bill fell asleep while watching TV, and his cigarette fell out of his hand and caught "set" the carpet on fire.

My friend, Bill fell asleep while watching TV,; his cigarette fell out fo his hand and set the carpet on fire.

The first comma doesn't belong there. The second one is a comma splice since the first and second parts of this sentence are equally complete sentences on their own and can (potentially) be expressed separately.


5. Good thing his neighbor called the fire department "fighters" immediately.

It is a good thing his neighbor called the fire department immediately.

This is an incomplete sentence. Starting off with "Good thing" would make this into an improper -- though common -- expression which might be viable as a spoken statement, but simply does not pass muster as a written one.

[Swagman]

3. The scientists may "will" have discovered a cure for most illnesses.

The scientists may well have discovered a cure for most illnesses.

Will would not be appropriate because it's not a test of will that's what is at stake in the sentence.


Just to add to his confusion.

May = possible outcome
WILL = Definitive outcome

The two do not go together unless you are from Peterborough where we say things like..

"See that young old boy over there" !!

[MikeTheC]

Dude, just go on IRC, and you'll learn English.

Um, no. Well, if it's an English language education IRC channel, then perhaps. Other than that, it's simply a crap-shoot where one would be participating with a bunch of other people who may have no clue between them how to properly write in English.

If you want to learn how to write proper, functional, and even dramatically interesting English, go find yourself a really good book and read through it with an analytical eye.

[Swagman]

Um, no. Well, if it's an English language education IRC channel, then perhaps. Other than that, it's simply a crap-shoot where one would be participating with a bunch of other people who may have no clue between them how to properly write in English.

If you want to learn how to write proper, functional, and even dramatically interesting English, go find yourself a really good book and read through it with an analytical eye.

Agreed.

Native English speakers are actually quite poor with their usage of their own language be it written or verbal.

I have IRC'd with people who I'd have sworn were Eton trained but turned out to be foreign. They teach you English better abroad than they teach us here !!

[emshains]

1. I wouldn't run "move/walk" around, but cut the wound open and suck the poison out.

I wouldn't move around, but cut the wound open and suck the poison out.

That's because bodily movement of any kind is what's at stake, not just one type of movement.


2. We will probably be setting (I don't remember the correct example she gave) off to moon for our summer holidays.

Not sure about this one. Why would you "moon" for the summer holidays? It sounds like you're missing something important in this sentence.


3. The scientists may "will" have discovered a cure for most illnesses.

The scientists may well have discovered a cure for most illnesses.

Will would not be appropriate because it's not a test of will that's what is at stake in the sentence.



4. My friend, Bill fell asleep while watching TV, and his cigarette fell out of his hand and caught "set" the carpet on fire.

My friend, Bill fell asleep while watching TV,; his cigarette fell out fo his hand and set the carpet on fire.

The first comma doesn't belong there. The second one is a comma splice since the first and second parts of this sentence are equally complete sentences on their own and can (potentially) be expressed separately.


5. Good thing his neighbor called the fire department "fighters" immediately.

It is a good thing his neighbor called the fire department immediately.

This is an incomplete sentence. Starting off with "Good thing" would make this into an improper -- though common -- expression which might be viable as a spoken statement, but simply does not pass muster as a written one.

No, no, no! I had to put one word into each gap in those 5 sentences, and since I didn't get the actual test after she'd checked them I couldn't write the proper sentences. I only got the answer sheet back. You are right about the first one.

About the moon, it sounds inappropriate when taken out of context, but it was a sort of "what if" text about the life at the end of the 21st century. And I must apologize for the commas, although I've been taught for more than 9 years and even though the school specializes in english (heck, it is called Riga English Grammar school), they still haven't taught me a bit about commas.

[Therion]

She actually told me, that nobody says:" Caught on fire."
I'm a native English speaker and 43 years old. You can tell your teacher the phrase "caught on fire" is common usage in the United States and is grammatically correct.

"Suddenly, it caught on fire..." for example, is perfectly correct usage.

[namegame]

Emshains:

From my point of view, it looks like you have a better grasp on English than some native-born English speakers I know. I also don't see any problems with your commas, but I'm not an expert on the subject. :)

[zacktu]

Regarding "caught on fire" ...

English usage would usually say the that the cigarette set the carpet on fire, whereas the carpet caught on fire.

[Swagman]

The cigarette set fire to the carpet

[fballem]

Most of the people here are either in the middle of educating themselves, or already have done that. And, some of you may have found faults in the common education process. I am talking about the idea, that there's always just one correct answer and that there's just one solution to each problem- that's the basic principle my english teacher bases her whole life, I think.

And the ones who suffer are not only the narrow-minded teacher, but also the people around her, and I am one of them. And this sucks.

Although I haven't already passed TOEFL test, I haven't passed more than 4 Cambridge exams, and I still haven't finished the 9th grade, I still think that the way she checks for errors in our tests is just WRONG.

Today, I received an extra part of the test, that I didn't get a grade for. And the task was to fill the gaps in the text with suitable words. And here are the conflicting examples:
1. I wouldn't run "move/walk" around, but cut the wound open and suck the poison out.
2. We will probably be setting (I don't remember the correct example she gave) off to moon for our summer holidays.
3. The scientists may "will" have discovered a cure for most illnesses.
4. My friend, Bill fell asleep while watching TV, and his cigarette fell out of his hand and caught "set" the carpet on fire.
5. Good thing his neighbor called the fire department "fighters" immediately.

So,these are the 5 conflicting examples. This is not a complete replica of the test, but it is as close as I could remember it. The teachers answers are quoted, and they differ from the given answers, but from my point of view, I think they are correct. She told me it was not correct, because those were not the right expression. So, I then googled for each expression, but since english is the most widely known and used language in the internet, it is crippled and deformed through the times, so I want your opinion. I want to know, do you, people who speak english every day, would use the expressions above.

This is not the first time this teacher drives me mad because of her limited perception of the world itself. I hope you will point out any mistakes if you found any. I hope you understood my english.

Thanks for reading!

English is one of the most difficult languages to learn to speak, read, and write correctly. I'm most grateful that it is my first language, because learning it later in life would be difficult. My father-in-law speaks English very well, but with a slight Portuguese accent, after 40 years in an English environment.

It doesn't help that there is no 'standard' English. In the UK, for example, honour, favour, favourite, programme, and analyse. In the US, it's honor, favor, favorite, program, and analyze. Canadians compromise with honour, favour, favourite, program, and analyze.

With this in mind, may I offer the following observations?

1. I wouldn't run "move/walk" around, but cut the wound open and suck the poison out.

Assume that you had been bitten by a snake, what is the correct action. In your answer 'run', there is a specific action. I think your teacher was trying to suggest that the correct answer is the more generic 'move'. The reason for this is that your answer says, in effect, "don't run, but you can move", but the correct answer is "don't move".

2. We will probably be setting (I don't remember the correct example she gave) off to moon for our summer holidays.

I suspect that your teacher's answer was either 'going to the moon ...' or 'taking off for the moon ...'. 'Setting off', at least in my experience, usually implies a journey that is primarily undertaken by foot or land-based transportation, like a car. If my experience is correct, then the journey to the moon would not qualify. 'Going to somewhere ... ' is a very general way of saying that I will change my location to somewhere, without specifying how. 'Taking off somewhere ...' is a more specific way of saying that I will change my location to somewhere, and the journey is likely to involve air travel.

3. The scientists may "will" have discovered a cure for most illnesses.

The meaning of the sentence, using your answer, is that scientists may already have discovered a cure for most illnesses. The meaning of the sentence, using your teacher's answer, is that scientists have not already discovered the cure for most illnesses, but they will. The other alternative is that 'The scientists may discover a cure for most illnesses.' The sentence using your answer implies that the feat (discovering the cure for most illnesses) might already be complete, which is a very different meaning.

4. My friend, Bill fell asleep while watching TV, and his cigarette fell out of his hand and caught "set" the carpet on fire.

This difference between 'set on fire' and 'caught on fire' is based on what is important in the sentence. There is no question that the carpet is on fire. If the sentence read 'The carpet caught on fire when my friend, Bill fell asleep and his cigarette fell out of his hand.', then your answer would be correct. The carpet is the important part of the sentence. In the original, it is Bill that is the important part of the sentence, and therefore, he 'set the carpet on fire.'

5. Good thing his neighbor called the fire department "fighters"

I had some trouble with this one. Am I correct in assuming that you are in the UK? If that's a correct assumption, then your teacher's answer makes sense. In the UK - and some other English speaking parts of the world - the place where fire fighters work is not referred to as the 'fire department', but is instead referred to as the 'fire brigade'. If my assumption is incorrect, and you're not in the UK, then I'm stumped, because both answers would be correct.

Hope this helps,

[Onesimus]

You seem to be intent upon blaming your teachers for your lack of learning. You indicate that you have been taught for more than 9 years, and 'they still haven't taught me a bit about commas'. I find it hard to believe that your teachers haven't taught you how to use commas. Perhaps, you need to take responsibility for your learning because it would be more accurate to say that you haven't learnt how to use a comma properly in 9 years of teaching.

[fballem]

... that you haven't learnt how to use a comma properly in 9 years of teaching.

Another example of the differences in English between different locations. In Canada and the United States, we would use learned not learnt in the above sentence.

You might also come across 'amongst' and 'whilst' in the course of your English journey. In Canada and the United States, these are considered archaic, and 'among' and 'while' are considered correct.

An earlier poster suggest that you pick up some books in English and read them with an analytical eye. This is an excellent suggestion, and may help you to better understand the context of English, and the use of commas.

By the way, among other uses, the comma separates items in a list. In the UK and in Canada, a list of the first three numbers would be one, two, and three. In the United States, the same list would be one, two and three. Note that in the U.S. they do not use the comma between the second last item in the list and the word 'and', but in the UK and Canada, we do.

Hope this helps,

[JDorfler]

Oh, the English language. The ******* language of the world. Let's see, I'll take some of the native language of Britain and mix it with Latin. After a good while I'll let in some Germanic tribe. Then just to give it some texture I'll throw in a good dash of French.

Now, just to perfect the language I'll completely turn it upside down just to distinguish my dialect more from my English cousins, who apparently have problems annunciating their own language.

Oh, what a wonderful language English is. Ever morphing, ever changing, ever evolving, and ever dominant thanks to the British Empire. I believe the writers to Firefly were right. In the end, there will be only English and Cantonese/Mandarin. To know both would make an indvidual extremely rich.

[emshains]

You seem to be intent upon blaming your teachers for your lack of learning. You indicate that you have been taught for more than 9 years, and 'they still haven't taught me a bit about commas'. I find it hard to believe that your teachers haven't taught you how to use commas. Perhaps, you need to take responsibility for your learning because it would be more accurate to say that you haven't learnt how to use a comma properly in 9 years of teaching.

It's not my native language, nor is it the main language spoken in the country I am now living and studying. When I asked about this, she replied, that the comma placement in english isn't that important. I was surprised by this too.

The fire fighters thing is the one, that actually got on my nerves. You see, she said the neighbor couldn't actually call the whole fire department. And I recently checked the books that were actually made by the school I learn at, and the correct translation actually is "fire department".

I know see, that the teacher is trying to teach me the "right" english, the U.K. one. That is kind of dum, because the only place I'll use it is in the tests. I've been to both U.S. and U.K. and while I felt a difference in their lexicon, they didn't differ that much. But I didn't write anything though, it was kind of a vacation.
I must acknowledge that whilst learning the most popular language in the world, I must learn all the different "versions" of it, to be completely successful, and learning one kind of it, while using the other one in real life situations is a bit confusing.

Thanks for your support and advice.

[Eisenwinter]

English is one of the most difficult languages to learn to speak, read, and write correctly.
I completely disagree.

English is very easy, due to one main thing: there is no gender grammar.

Languages with gender grammar are far more difficult to learn.

Like I said in my previous post, I only learned the very basics of English at school: Language syntax, basic words, etc. The rest (most of it), I picked up on IRC, or by watching movies.

There are words that I know the meaning for, in English, and I cannot translate them into my first language, because I don't know the words for them in that language.

The hardest part in learning English is reading and writing in it.

But eventually you learn the rules of it by heart. And I really mean, by heart.

I can't explain WHY something is written as it is, I just know that this is the correct way to spell it.

Maybe it's just like that for me, but within a year of first starting to go on IRC and participating in conversations, I could speak English pretty fluently most of the time, and could spell correctly 90% of the time.

[JDorfler]

Another example of the differences in English between different locations. In Canada and the United States, we would use learned not learnt in the above sentence.

An earlier poster suggest that you pick up some books in English and read them with an analytical eye. This is an excellent suggestion, and may help you to better understand the context of English, and the use of commas.

By the way, among other uses, the comma separates items in a list. In the UK and in Canada, a list of the first three numbers would be one, two, and three. In the United States, the same list would be one, two and three. Note that in the U.S. they do not use the comma between the second last item in the list and the word 'and', but in the UK and Canada, we do.

Hope this helps,

Actually both are recognized with the comma usage. The reason why is because it makes more since if say you are listing people's names. Such as;

Bob Willis, Mary Sue, Kane and Jennifer Billings, and Chris Folks are coming to the party tonight.

If we used your second example of comma usage the above sentence would not make sense. I personally hate not using the comma before the and. It blows my mind anyone anywhere would think this is proper, but apparently it is. Then again the word ain't is now in the dictionary.

[Swagman]

point the first

it's Dumb not dum

Whilst we're on a speelin unt usage theme

Common mistakes.

People often say their team is going to loose <--- WRONG

Their team is going to lose

Loose is the opposite of tight.

[fballem]

Actually both are recognized with the comma usage. The reason why is because it makes more since if say you are listing people's names. Such as;

Bob Willis, Mary Sue, Kane and Jennifer Billings, and Chris Folks are coming to the party tonight.

If we used your second example of comma usage the above sentence would not make sense. I personally hate not using the comma before the and. It blows my mind anyone anywhere would think this is proper, but apparently it is. Then again the word ain't is now in the dictionary.

Excellent example, and I stand corrected. Interestingly enough, when I was working in New York, which I was for four years, I had to set my spell check and grammar check to U.S. English, and I always got caught on the final comma.

The lack of gender grammar is the saving grace of English. I speak French fairly well, but I always get tripped up on the gender!

As for I must learn all the different "versions" of it, that's not true. I have had the pleasure of living and working in Canada, the United States, and the United Kingdom for extended periods of time. I have never had any difficulty in making myself understood, and with only one exception, I have never had any difficulty understanding the English that was spoken to me in those places. The exception, in case you're interested, was a gentleman that I worked with in the U.K. who spoke with a very heavy Cockney accent. It took me a while, but I eventually got it.

Learning the U.K. English won't hurt you. If you are ever in a situation where you have to write, and you use a computer, then make certain that your spell check and grammar checker are set to the correct location, and you'll have fewer problems. While not perfect, they will catch most of the differences in usage and spelling.

Hope this helps,

[LowSky]

Being an American the common usage of commas is use to link two sentences that share a common subject.

For Example:
Without comma:
John went to the market. John purchased a dozen eggs.
With comma:
John went to the market, and he purchased a dozen eggs.

When a comma is used to link muliple subjects it is used like so:
John, Jill, and Jacob went to the market.

To use a comma to link two sentences together you need a conjunctive. Some words that are conjuntives are:
And, But, [and] Also.
These words should never be used to start a sentence, but to link two sentences together.

English does have some rules on when not to use a comma. When you are talking about two items the use of a comma is not need like so:
John purchased eggs and bacon.

Remember that written English varies from spoken English.

[sydbat]

To use a comma to link two sentences together you need a conjunctive. Some words that are conjuntives are:
And, But, [and] Also.
These words should never be used to start a sentence, but to link two sentences together.That totally reminded me of this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkO87mkgcNo&feature=related)...

[fballem]

Being an American the common usage of commas is use to link two sentences that share a common subject.

For Example:
Without comma:
John went to the market. John purchased a dozen eggs.
With comma:
John went to the market, and he purchased a dozen eggs.

When a comma is used to link muliple subjects it is used like so:
John, Jill, and Jacob went to the market.

To use a comma to link two sentences together you need a conjunctive. Some words that are conjuntives are:
And, But, [and] Also.
These words should never be used to start a sentence, but to link two sentences together.

English does have some rules on when not to use a comma. When you are talking about two items the use of a comma is not need like so:
John purchased eggs and bacon.

Remember that written English varies from spoken English.

Now I've learned something new, thank you. In your example, John went to the market, and he purchased a dozen eggs., common usage is that the comma is not used here in Canada.

My suggestion would be to pick up a good book on English style, which are guides to Language and Usage.

The following links may be helpful:

The Oxford Style Manual, since you are learning UK English:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Oxford-Style-Manual-Robert-Ritter/dp/0198605641

The Globe and Mail Style Book. The Globe and Mail is a well-respected newspaper in Canada. I prefer this one, since it is smaller and more focused on Canadian English than the Chicago Manual of Style.

http://www.amazon.ca/Globe-Mail-Style-Book-Ninth/sim/0771056850/2/StyleguidePage

The Chicaco Manual of Style, which is considered to be a superb reference for American English usage and style:

http://www.amazon.com/Chicago-Manual-Style-University-Press/dp/0226104036

I also have found the Oxford Guide to Canadian English Usage to be useful:

http://www.amazon.ca/Guide-Canadian-English-Usage-Margery/dp/0195426029

In your case, I would recommend the Oxford Style Manual.

Regards,

[mips]

Now I've learned something new, thank you. In your example, John went to the market, and he purchased a dozen eggs., common usage is that the comma is not used here in Canada.

Same here and I suspect it is the case with Oxford & International english.

[fballem]

Just to add to the comma confusion:

In the Oxford Guide to Canadian English Usage, the list is written:

one, two, and three.

In the Globe and Mail Style Book, the list is written:

one, two and three.

with an exception for:

Bob Willis, Mary Sue, Kane and Jennifer Billings, and Chris Folks are coming to the party tonight. (complex list, with Mary Sue, Kane and Jennifer Billings being related, but not to Bob, nor to Chris).

By the way, the Oxford Guide to Canadian English Usage has almost 4 full pages of rules, including examples, of comma usage. The Globe and Mail Style Book has almost two pages - but it's a much smaller reference book and assumes a good familiarity with English. The Chicago Manual of Style has 10 pages of rules, including examples, of comma usage.

Enjoy!

[MikeTheC]

When I asked about this, she replied, that the comma placement in english isn't that important. I was surprised by this too.
Good. You should be. Any teacher to says that comma placements are not important is incompetent and should not be teaching.

[gn2]

Caught on fire = American English. In English English "caught on fire" is grammatically incorrect, it should be "caught fire".
In the example in the original post it should be "~ cigarette fell out of his hand and set fire to the carpet"

Fire department = American English, in Britain we have Fire brigades who employ fire fighters.

You need to decide if you're learning American English or the real thing. ;)

[MikeTheC]

Here's a perfect example which I just remembered from my own Comp I class on the importance of commas (and why your teacher is an idiot -- and you can tell her to her face I said so):

Example 1:

Woman, without her man, is nothing.


Example 2:

Woman, without her, man is nothing.

[ddarsow]

If she is really that anal about using the "right" word, perhaps she should know that if it is in a wound it is almost certainly venom and not poison. Poison is ingested, whereas venome is invected (or totherwise introduced) into a wound by a venomous species of animal.

sorry, but us reptile breeders are a bit particular about the usage of such words!