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fuscia
January 4th, 2006, 03:32 PM
if most end users are like me, there's going to be at least one apparently huge stumbling block in the way of getting to use linux (for me, it was getting my usb wireless adapter going). as evidenced by these forums, there is no shortage of help, in fact, there's an embarassing abundance of help. the problem with this help is that nearly every helper has too much respect for those they are helping. the people who provide support for windows, know enough to treat their little charges like idiotic dirt, which is surprisingly helpful.

as a teacher, i'm am forever having to remember what it was like to be clueless and fearful of the unknown. it is easy to look back at all the steps i took to get wherever i am and to remember how often an accidental discovery gave me a foot in the door to learning something about what i was trying to do. what is hard for me is to guess where the beginner stands. i don't think i have found anyone who is standing in the same place i once was. what may have been an "aha!" moment for me, might be a "so what?" moment for them. conversly, something that might have always been painfully obvious to me, might be a revelation to them. additionally, there are lots of little things we have all learned that have become so second nature, we have forgotten we ever even learned them. it's easy to remember the significant pieces of acquired knowledge while it is easy to forget all the little acquired details that make up more of our understanding than we often appreciate.

my experience with learning about linux, and firefox before that, is that i've always felt like the first chapter of the manual is missing. the first chapter would include everything from "turn power on" to a glossary of odd terms (the glossary should be in beginnerese). when i first started asking questions about linux, i got some very patient answers that, unfortunately, made references to things i had never even heard of. while i was never treated with even the remotest suggestion of impatience, after a while, i couldn't help feeling that i was making a pest of myself and that maybe i needed to go back to the 'beginner class'. for example, for my wireless problem, i was asking about ndiswrapper quite a bit. the suggestion that i should 'just get it from the repositories' was made, but as i had absolutely no clue what a repository was ("or, did he say 'suppository'? i wonder if that was a hint"), even after asking a friend of mine who uses red hat at work (he uses windows at home) who didn't know what they were either, i felt somewhat astonished. looking back at it now, having used synaptic on a daily basis, i laugh at my puzzlement. the explanation that was missing, that would have cleared it up for me, was that synaptic was a collection of programs that comes with the installation of ubuntu, only the programs aren't installed yet (for someone who has only known going to the garden store and buying plants, the notion of 'seeds' is completely foreign and unimaginable).

so, we need to write the first chapter of the manual. the problem in doing so is that those who are expert are unlikely to unravel the fabric of their knowledge enough to reclaim all their subconscious bits of knowledge to the level of consciousness. that then leaves the task up to those of us who are advanced beginners ("just watch your older brother"). unfortunately, people like me are probably far more occupied with the fear that we might mislead someone than with the thought we might actually be helpful, it is unlikely we will be the authors of this chapter.

well, i have no solution.:rolleyes:

rjwood
January 4th, 2006, 03:58 PM
Interesting and well said. I have also had the same feelings(?). I have also mis-led and was embarrassed when I saw myself corrected in a thread. No-one said a word to me. That was kind! I know next to nothing about linux but, when I first came here, I knew absolutley nothing. I share what I can, when I can and am willing to take the chance of being wrong because I have learned here that It's ok to make mistakes and I will not be ridiculed for them (unless they are intentional of course, and then I should be reproved). I alway's tell my family members that I am often incorrect or wrong but, they can be sure of one thing, and that is that my decisions are made out of love and that is why I can sleep at night when I make errors concerning them.
Great story fuscia, and thanks for sharing. You contribute in many way's. Just seeing you here often tells other forum members that this is a place of stability where they can plant their computing roots. Of coure threads like this never hurt. You are the solution!:cool:

fuscia
January 4th, 2006, 04:24 PM
You are the solution!:cool:

i am the world.

it just occurred to me, as it did you, that i could always offer help with a "caution: student driver" sign. thanks, rj.

canadianwriterman
January 4th, 2006, 05:06 PM
I'd like to offer my help. I'm like the both of you. I'm new to Linux and to Ubuntu, but have learned a tremendous amount with the help of these forums.

Yes, there are many "basic" pieces of information that a new user should be aware of (like "what is a repository" that would certainly help reduce the amount of back-and-forth forum conversations).

Also, I am a writer by profession. However, unlike many "artsy-types," I have a strong interest in technology and a desire to understand it. Maybe those qualities would lead to the creation of a learner's guide that acknowledges the fact that many new users need some pretty basic information in order to fully enjoy their Ubuntu Linux experience.

Feel free to message me if you're interested in starting some work.

earobinson
January 4th, 2006, 05:47 PM
fuscia that was said like a pro in my mind!

When I started using linux (3 ish years ago i think) I felt like this to. I would ask how do I get this to X to work and the answer would be "Install Y" but since I did not know about dpkg I did not know how to install Y and would have to ask again.

Now that I answer more questions than I ask I find my self doing the same thing when some one asks me how do I do this I will respond with edit your sources.list

Now if that user has posted in the begginer section I will try and make my posts a bit longer, But even then I assume that they know if I tell them to do a
sudo edit /etc/apt/sources.list that they know that that command goes in the terminal.

Why do I do this because I am to lazy to type out the whole answer. And for most users It would just be anoying if I typed out the whole answer. But If the user asks I am happy to help them an never get angry at people asking simple questions (+ my post count gets to go up :) lol).

There are many begginer guides to linux on the internet however. If I was you and wanted to make a guide I would take it in a diferent direction go with a video vertiual tour or something new and very simple like when you first install xp that tells the user everything.

fuscia
January 4th, 2006, 06:38 PM
Feel free to message me if you're interested in starting some work.

we might as well do this rather than waiting for someone else to do it for us. we could put together something and call it ubuntu for chauncey gardiner.


There are many begginer guides to linux on the internet however. If I was you and wanted to make a guide I would take it in a diferent direction go with a video vertiual tour or something new and very simple like when you first install xp that tells the user everything.

ha! the only other operating system i have ever installed was windows ME. i actually think installing ubuntu is easier, though there are some places along the way where i was pretty close to being stumped ('server install'???, partitioning - i didn't know what the choices meant, though wiping my drive clean did seem more obvious than the others. and, i got a message saying that no networking gear had been detected. i didn't what to do, so i just chose 'no' and went on).

while there are many beginning linux guides around, the ones i have come across fail to give perspective (i don't know if i'm horton or the who) and i found a lot of the terminology to be misleading (at least, i thought it was). also, in just looking at the sites that come up under the first few pages of a google search ('beginning linux' 'linux beginner'), many of them give the impression to someone on the outside looking in, that one needs to know command line and use it all the time, in order to run linux. while i agree it is dopey not to learn how to use command line, i don't think it's necessary for the typical end user to begin with command line. after installation, one need not use it to connect to the internet, send e-mail, use openoffice, or even use synaptic. these can all be done via the GUI. even if one has to connect using a wireless adapter, that can be done with ndisgtk (which can be got through synaptic). none of the beginner guides i have looked at are geared for the stupid, lazy non-purist. that's what i'm suggesting we need. from your description of a video virtual guide, i'm assuming we're in agreement.

earobinson
January 4th, 2006, 08:59 PM
yes yes we are.
none of the beginner guides i have looked at are geared for the stupid, lazy non-purist that is perfect. It would be nice to see. I think the problem with a lot of manuals is that people (including myself) cant always be bothered to read them

Lord Illidan
January 4th, 2006, 09:31 PM
I agree with the sentiments posted. This forum has been very helpful, and I hope I have helped too.
This reminds me of my first visit to Linux with Fedora Core 1. There was no forum I could see, I was lost in dependency hell thousands of times. I tried to install the new version of KDE (beta 3 I think) on 2.9 (I think) manually...anyway, confusion galore..and googling al estremo..
However, I already knew something about computers, so i was able to get along.
So I try and go easy on newbs, because I was one once. Yet, it is true, I do get slightly impatient, especially when they whine about having to use the terminal. (I remember in Fedora Core, not knowing where the terminal was and being sooo embarassed about it, especially as I had got my A+ cert, and I thought I knew everything there was to know).

I think some sort of Linux course, like the ECDL for Microsoft, should be setup on a site, preferably free, and it should guide the user through a basic knowledge of Linux, and preferably distro agnostic.

aysiu
January 4th, 2006, 11:52 PM
so, we need to write the first chapter of the manual. I already tried to do this about a month after starting Linux--writing everything I wish someone had told me when I started using Linux, and I was newbie enough to know what needed to be said:

http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxguide.php

I also wrote a PDF that's fairly "first chapter" (or maybe it's chapter 1.5) specifically for Ubuntu:

http://ubuntu.xgn.com.br/ubuntu_user_guide.pdf

matthew
January 5th, 2006, 05:46 AM
I already tried to do this about a month after starting Linux--writing everything I wish someone had told me when I started using Linux, and I was newbie enough to know what needed to be said:

http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxguide.phpWow. Bookmarked.

xequence
January 5th, 2006, 05:54 AM
ha! the only other operating system i have ever installed was windows ME. i actually think installing ubuntu is easier, though there are some places along the way where i was pretty close to being stumped ('server install'???, partitioning - i didn't know what the choices meant, though wiping my drive clean did seem more obvious than the others. and, i got a message saying that no networking gear had been detected. i didn't what to do, so i just chose 'no' and went on).

Windows 2000 and XP are much easier to install then ME and 98.

But I still prefer the ubuntu one. Why? Because it has a useable partitioner.