Ubuntu in the future

[Pasdar]

I'm going to post some of my ideas on brainstorm. But I thought I'd check out what you guys think too. These what I'm going to submit:

I think Ubuntu is on its way to become a great operating system and I see it as possible they could attain a market share equal or greater than 35% in a relatively short period of time.
The success Ubuntu has had until now reminds me very much of the success of Firefox in the browser market, however there are a few things that need to change or be done differently if Ubuntu wants to achieve at least the same amount of success.

Some of these ideas might have been submitted before, but they have never been seen as a compound way of succeeding as an operating system. I'm going to add multiple solutions to this.

(Unfortunately it seems one is not allowed to add multiple solutions to one issue)

The solutions are also in the right priority order:

#1: Hardware Drivers.
Ubuntu needs to support (drivers) as many hardware as it can. This is absolutely essential and should be top priority for Canocial. Drivers for Graphics cards should be at the top of that list. The Laptop/PC needs to either work out of the box, or needs to at least be playable in GUI mode, and then a notice should be given for installation of drivers.

#2: Faster X Window System / GNOME
The Graphical environment of Ubuntu needs to become much faster, it is still not fast enough. Many times when you start something, it opens, but then it takes 2/3 seconds before you can use it because it's not fully loaded.

#3: Easy Software
Make sure that all of the well known software programs and games are either available through the repositories or with deb files from getdeb.net.

[toupeiro]

The solutions are also in the right priority order:

#1: Hardware Drivers.
Ubuntu needs to support (drivers) as many hardware as it can. This is absolutely essential and should be top priority for Canocial. Drivers for Graphics cards should be at the top of that list. The Laptop/PC needs to either work out of the box, or needs to at least be playable in GUI mode, and then a notice should be given for installation of drivers.

#2: Faster X Window System / GNOME
The Graphical environment of Ubuntu needs to become much faster, it is still not fast enough. Many times when you start something, it opens, but then it takes 2/3 seconds before you can use it because it's not fully loaded.

#3: Easy Software
Make sure that all of the well known software programs and games are either available through the repositories or with deb files from getdeb.net.

#1) First, we need to put a few things into context. I'm going to assume that you are basing your experience with ubuntu against windows. That being said, a freshly downloaded Ubuntu CD needs to be directly compared to a retail windows CD. a version of ubuntu pre-loaded on a laptop needs to be directly compared to OEM installations of windows. To that effect, I issue you the pepsi challenge. Take your Windows CD and Ubuntu CD and install them on three different systems, and tell me which OS supports more hardware from a fresh install? My money is on the idea it will be ubuntu. Todays linux supports a wider variety of hardware than windows, and in some cases, better than windows does. Drivers are made available from third party companies or open source developers.

#2. This will greatly have to do with your hardware. I find no lag time in x whatsoever. In fact, my users to daily 3d modeling on linux, old versions of it at that...

#3, I fail to see where this isn't being done already..

I guess I am just confused. How long have you been using ubuntu, and against what basis of comparison are you making these statements?

[joshdudeha]

Aren't there already threads like this?

All I seem to hear about is people's ideology of how Ubuntu is suddenly going to take over the market, but first having to complete a set of goals.

No offence, but it grows tiring, and these problems you have posted; are you going to contribute to make them better?
I don't mean to be rude, but I just feel sick of the template threads that keep being posted.

Sure, Ubuntu will do well; but it doesn't have to take over market share.
Many people don't want that, it is sometimes better to be the minority.

[sekinto]

I would like to see built in speech recognition myself. It would be nice to be able to "type" while I have a large feline on my lap. :p

[Pasdar]

#1) First, we need to put a few things into context. I'm going to assume that you are basing your experience with ubuntu against windows. That being said, a freshly downloaded Ubuntu CD needs to be directly compared to a retail windows CD. a version of ubuntu pre-loaded on a laptop needs to be directly compared to OEM installations of windows. To that effect, I issue you the pepsi challenge. Take your Windows CD and Ubuntu CD and install them on three different systems, and tell me which OS supports more hardware from a fresh install? My money is on the idea it will be ubuntu. Todays linux supports a wider variety of hardware than windows, and in some cases, better than windows does. Drivers are made available from third party companies or open source developers.

#2. This will greatly have to do with your hardware. I find no lag time in x whatsoever. In fact, my users to daily 3d modeling on linux, old versions of it at that...

#3, I fail to see where this isn't being done already..

I guess I am just confused. How long have you been using ubuntu, and against what basis of comparison are you making these statements?

#1 Let's not kid ourselves here. I, and most other people can install Windows (any version) on any of their laptops without any issue. The only thing I had to do in my case was either set HD to native IDE or add drivers in installation CD. I don't know what you keep yourself busy with, but if you take a look in the Installation section you'll notice there are hundreds of posts from people that can not even get Ubuntu to start the Installation. This is a known issue with Ubuntu/Linux, and they even have a tutorial on ubuntu.com explaining a possible way of installing it via command-line. Don't just talk about something if you don't know. Ubuntu has major problems on new laptops, and in many cases even old laptops or with PCs using certain GFX cards (Usually ATI cards).

#2 Well then you are a minority. On this PC I have an AMD Athlon 3000+, 1.5GB DDR2, GF6200, it should run everything smoothly, whether its a game or any of the gazillion applications on it. However, it even lags when any of the gnome apps. Any any windows OS, the app will just jump up without any lag. This is obviously something that needs to be worked on.

#3 True, but more applications can be added, they can be added faster, etc. That is why I have it as the last point.

[Paqman]

#1: Hardware Drivers.
Ubuntu needs to support (drivers) as many hardware as it can. This is absolutely essential and should be top priority for Canocial. Drivers for Graphics cards should be at the top of that list. The Laptop/PC needs to either work out of the box, or needs to at least be playable in GUI mode, and then a notice should be given for installation of drivers.


That's pretty much how Ubuntu handles drivers right now. What version of Ubuntu are you using?



#2: Faster X Window System / GNOME
The Graphical environment of Ubuntu needs to become much faster, it is still not fast enough. Many times when you start something, it opens, but then it takes 2/3 seconds before you can use it because it's not fully loaded.


That's not really anything to do with X. You can improve launch time by installing preload, which will cache commonly used apps for you (assuming you have plenty of spare RAM)

The switch to new filesystems like ext4 and the migration from magnetic hard drives to SSDs will greatly improve launch times anyway.



#3: Easy Software
Make sure that all of the well known software programs and games are either available through the repositories or with deb files from getdeb.net.

I'd say pretty all the well-known software and games are already in the Ubuntu repos. Stuff that isn't is often available from PPAs or .debs provided by the developers.

[Pasdar]

That's pretty much how Ubuntu handles drivers right now. What version of Ubuntu are you using?
I've tried 8.04, 8.10 and 9.04, two alternative CDs, and including some other distros. The issue I think is that they have trouble recognizing the graphics card. Installation can not be done trough command line either, and there are hundreds of people on this forum that have posted the same problem.
Through some changing of settings I do manage to get in text based installation and install command-line Ubuntu. However, I believe that is the farthest anyone one of the help seekers have come. I do believe it can be fixed from command-line, but I refuse to install an OS that let's me go through so much trouble to get it installed. Maybe if its the only or best OS I'll consider doing it the time-consuming way.
Ubuntu.com has a tutorial that goes back to v7 for installing it on laptops with this issue. However, the tutorial is not a sure thing and is just something that has been passed to them by a user.


That's not really anything to do with X. You can improve launch time by installing preload, which will cache commonly used apps for you (assuming you have plenty of spare RAM)
I will take a look at that.


The switch to new filesystems like ext4 and the migration from magnetic hard drives to SSDs will greatly improve launch times anyway.
The possibility of getting corrupted files through a possibility bug invested new file system also exists. However, I do plan on installing a fresh install of 9.04 on ext4 once its out. As far as SSDs go, I guess that's just for netbooks.
I've tried Eeebuntu on my wife's ASUS EEE and it works great.


I'd say pretty all the well-known software and games are already in the Ubuntu repos. Stuff that isn't is often available from PPAs or .debs provided by the developers.
Pretty much yes, as I said: what has been achieved till now is great, but more can be done... however this doesn't have any priority over the other two issues.

[Paqman]

I've tried 8.04, 8.10 and 9.04, two alternative CDs, and including some other distros.


That sucks, I feel your pain. Hardware compatibility is still Linux's #1 problem. The situation is definitely improving, but that's not much comfort when it's your hardware that won't work.

I don't think there's a quick fix for this. Our small market share and limited interest from many manufacturers might mean that this is always going to be a problem.



The possibility of getting corrupted files through a possibility bug invested new file system also exists.


It does, but it's remote. Ext4 is now officially stable. A regular backup habit would minimise the risk down to the point where the benefits far outweigh the risks, IMO.



As far as SSDs go, I guess that's just for netbooks.


Not at all. Just because all the SSDs on the market are in the 2.5" form factor doesn't mean you can't fit them to a desktop. I'll be shifting my Ubuntu install to a nice new 60GB SSD in my desktop before too long.

[gn2]

Thoughts on the ideas, not B/S like "I'm sick and tired of people like that".

You have misquoted what was said, actually it was "I just feel sick of the template threads that keep being posted."
Fed up of the recurring threads, not the people who post them.
It's a valid point, there are no end of threads similar to this one.

Anyway, if you're interested, here's my thoughts:

1: Hardware drivers are primarily the responsibility of manufacturers.
Why should Canonical/Ubuntu/Linux community invest time creating drivers for manufacturers so that the manufacturers can benefit from potential increased sales....?
Canonical/Ubuntu/Linux community should instead promote the manufacturers who do create good linux drivers and help increase public awareness of exactly what hardware will and will not work with Ubuntu and other distributions.

2: There could be a problem with your hardware? See 1: above.

3: Ubuntu already has the best software availability of any distribution, there is no shortage of good software.

[dspari1]

I think Ubuntu already accomplished everything you stated, but for a faster desktop environment, try Xubuntu.

[Pasdar]

You have misquoted what was said, actually it was "I just feel sick of the template threads that keep being posted."
Fed up of the recurring threads, not the people who post them.
It's a valid point, there are no end of threads similar to this one.
My point is that this is a forum for everyone. Not some loner who likes to spend his time in terminal and bash anyone who wants something else (pardon my exaggeration). This is a forum with more than 808,704 members and with nearly 8000 people on it at this moment. The group of people Canonical is targeting is not closed minded people, examples of which are some of the losers who bash Ubuntu for providing proprietary drivers to their users.
It in fact wants advancement and a much larger share of the global market and it's definitely targeting users from other OSs'. They definitely do not at all wish to be some dubious minority OS. The very fact they created the brainstorm website is because they want to know what the users want so they can adapt to that. The very fact that these points have been said before shows that it is the direction in which Ubuntu should go. You should listen to some of Shuttleworth's presentations on Youtube, its the reason I installed Ubuntu.

I'm active on two other forums too, and let me tell you... if recurring threads really bother you, the best thing to do is to stay away from any large forum and join some small forum where everyone knows everyone.


Anyway, if you're interested, here's my thoughts:

1: Hardware drivers are primarily the responsibility of manufacturers.
Why should Canonical/Ubuntu/Linux community invest time creating drivers for manufacturers so that the manufacturers can benefit from potential increased sales....?
Canonical/Ubuntu/Linux community should instead promote the manufacturers who do create good linux drivers and help increase public awareness of exactly what hardware will and will not work with Ubuntu and other distributions.
I didn't mention where the hardware support should come from, either from the manufacturer or self made. I said it needs to resolve the hardware issues. Many of the hardware already do have drivers available for them for the Linux platform. The only thing missing is a distro willing to install proprietary drivers out of the box to make your PC/Laptop work they way it should. This is the way forward, even if you need to make a new DVD edition of Ubuntu, for those who want it, with every possible driver on it to make anything work. This has been suggested before, but closed minded people dismiss because they're happy with their own system working and can not think beyond that.

[RichardLinx]

Pasdar, could you please expand on why you're talking about closed minded people and loners that spend there time using terminal?

[Paqman]

The only thing missing is a distro willing to install proprietary drivers out of the box to make your PC/Laptop work they way it should.

Er, have you heard of Ubuntu?

[gn2]

~ The only thing missing is a distro willing to install proprietary drivers out of the box to make your PC/Laptop work they way it should. ~

Without creation of drivers, they can't be included.
How would you propose to create the required drivers if the manufacturers won't fund their development?
There are distributions which include drivers and codecs that Ubuntu chooses not to, e.g. Mint, PCLinuxOS.

You are correct that there are many users on this forum, among them many who will disagree with you.
Learn to live with it.

[xir_]

1) Ubuntu is far more advanced than windows for drivers out of the box, but if what you are looking for is double click drivers then i would say that would be worse.

The way that windows handles third party drivers is awful and leads to most BSODs, i don't want kernel panics just for the sake of market share, better be be slow, steady and open source.


2) X works flawlessly for me, but be careful with preload, if you customise it properly it can be a really nice feature otherwise it can be a real ram hog, I removed it because of that.


3)The repositories already do that, but lucky for us its normally only stable versions that reach them. Maybe what would be better is a add programs ranking systems for synaptics.


psadar i appreciate your opinions but what josh said was right and could have been replied to with a little more tact. The no market share gain opinion is a very valid one, whilst i don't agree with it personally, i think that it is a very well thought out point of view.

[Paqman]

1)be careful with preload, if you customise it properly it can be a really nice feature otherwise it can be a real ram hog, I removed it because of that.


Maybe i'm not quite understanding your point, but it's supposed to be a RAM hog. It uses uses your free memory to cache your commonly used apps.

[xir_]

Maybe i'm not quite understanding your point, but it's supposed to be a RAM hog. It uses uses your free memory to cache your commonly used apps.

It is meant to hog ram, but sometimes it can go wrong and load too much stuff, and causing an overall slowdown in you system, i experienced this with my laptop which has 2 gigs of ram.

Another option is readahead, very powerful, but that also has the same issue.

All im saying is just keep an eye on it, in my experience it isn't one of those click and your system gets faster optimisations.

[ibuclaw]

#1: Hardware Drivers.
Ubuntu needs to support (drivers) as many hardware as it can. This is absolutely essential and should be top priority for Canocial. Drivers for Graphics cards should be at the top of that list. The Laptop/PC needs to either work out of the box, or needs to at least be playable in GUI mode, and then a notice should be given for installation of drivers.

OpenSolaris already has something like this. It's called ddu (http://opensolaris.org/os/project/driver-utility/) or 'device driver utility' and it seeks and lists all attached hardware, and the driver that is being used for it, or the lack of drivers or functionality available for that piece of hardware, as the case may be.

See the attached image for reference.

For now though, you have the Ubuntu HCL: http://www.ubuntuhcl.org/


#2: Faster X Window System / GNOME
The Graphical environment of Ubuntu needs to become much faster, it is still not fast enough. Many times when you start something, it opens, but then it takes 2/3 seconds before you can use it because it's not fully loaded.

My initial response is: "Do not try to make something faster unless you can quantify slow (http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Benchmarking-HOWTO.html)".

For everything else, there is prelink (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=271726), preload (apt:preload) and readahead (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=565651&highlight=halve)... but be weary that you can make your system slower using them in some showcases.


#3: Easy Software
Make sure that all of the well known software programs and games are either available through the repositories or with deb files from getdeb.net.

This is already done, but due to licensing restrictions/issues and legalities, not all software and/or games can be hosted/distributed.

To quote the Medibuntu Site (medibuntu.org):


...software that cannot be included in Ubuntu for various reasons, related to geographical variations in legislation regarding intellectual property, security and other issues:

* patentability of software, algorithms, formats and other abstract creation
* legal restrictions on freedom of speech or communication
* restrictions on the use of certain types of technical solution, such as cryptography
* legal restrictions on imports of software technology, requiring for example specific permissions
* etc.

A lot of excellent free software and non-free software is affected by such restriction somewhere in the world, thus preventing its inclusion into Ubuntu that, for economy and simplicity, are generally identical for all countries...


Regards
Iain

[overdrank]

Thread reopened. please keep the COC in mind when posting. Thanks

[toupeiro]

#1 Let's not kid ourselves here. I, and most other people can install Windows (any version) on any of their laptops without any issue. The only thing I had to do in my case was either set HD to native IDE or add drivers in installation CD. I don't know what you keep yourself busy with, but if you take a look in the Installation section you'll notice there are hundreds of posts from people that can not even get Ubuntu to start the Installation. This is a known issue with Ubuntu/Linux, and they even have a tutorial on ubuntu.com explaining a possible way of installing it via command-line. Don't just talk about something if you don't know. Ubuntu has major problems on new laptops, and in many cases even old laptops or with PCs using certain GFX cards (Usually ATI cards).

#2 Well then you are a minority. On this PC I have an AMD Athlon 3000+, 1.5GB DDR2, GF6200, it should run everything smoothly, whether its a game or any of the gazillion applications on it. However, it even lags when any of the gnome apps. Any any windows OS, the app will just jump up without any lag. This is obviously something that needs to be worked on.

#3 True, but more applications can be added, they can be added faster, etc. That is why I have it as the last point.

#1) You obviously haven't installed vanilla windows on very many systems. I'm not talking about OEM versions with customized slipstreamed drivers by the manufacturer, I am talking about storeshelf windows.


I don't know what you keep yourself busy with, but if you take a look in the Installation section you'll notice there are hundreds of posts from people that can not even get Ubuntu to start the Installation

I've been keeping myself busy with system administration work for 11 years, supporting everything under the sun, primarily windows and linux. Fact is, I've gotten vanilla ubuntu to install on things I couldn't get vanilla XP to install on.

#2) Being that you are the only one I've heard complain about this type of a problem with x server that hasn't troubleshot it back down to a system issue or a configuration issue they implemented, I sincerely doubt I am the minority. I've run X on a ten year old laptop with more responsiveneness than you are claiming X has. I'd really like to see some posts linked of where you have asked for help and got nowhere with the problem before you say this is a distribution based problem..

#3) This is just a silly point. Seriously, Windows doesn't have anything as remotely functional as a repository system. This is a huge killer feature for any linux distro, and if you don't think software is added fast enough, there are ways you can help with that process.

[Pasdar]

#1) You obviously haven't installed vanilla windows on very many systems. I'm not talking about OEM versions with customized slipstreamed drivers by the manufacturer, I am talking about storeshelf windows.
Oh yes, I have a good idea what you mean. However, you are a rare example of someone who thinks linux will have less trouble installing on most systems than windows. This while it is a known thing that Windows comes with a crazy amount of drivers packed into it and can connect to its servers for 10 times that amount again to access/install. And any drivers you would have to install manually would be click click, installed!


I've been keeping myself busy with system administration work for 11 years, supporting everything under the sun, primarily windows and linux. Fact is, I've gotten vanilla ubuntu to install on things I couldn't get vanilla XP to install on.
This is exactly a point I made earlier. You are an experienced person and could probably install anything on any system. The experience you have with any problem you come across helps you overcome any future problems or allows you to fix problems. However, this also seems to cripple your view of how it truelly is for someone else that doesn't enjoy your experience with *nix systems. Normal people might come across problems while installing Windows, but with a bit of help they can usually fix it. However, even a minor problem during Linux installation will confuse the normal users to the point that with even (remote) help he might not be able to fix it.


#2) Being that you are the only one I've heard complain about this type of a problem with x server that hasn't troubleshot it back down to a system issue or a configuration issue they implemented, I sincerely doubt I am the minority. I've run X on a ten year old laptop with more responsiveneness than you are claiming X has.
You should do a search, it's one of the reasons many Windows users give when leaving Ubuntu and i've read that in many of their 'goodbye' posts. I've installed the latest preload, we'll see what happens.


I'd really like to see some posts linked of where you have asked for help and got nowhere with the problem before you say this is a distribution based problem..
There are very many people on this forum that have complained about getting a black screen with flashing cursor during boot up of installation disk or booting up LiveCD.

Because I had the same problem I have done many searches and one think I found they all had in common was that they all had ATI gfx cards, including myself.

Myself, I managed to get into text mode install by disabling ACPI. I then installed it, was in command-line, tried several things (as suggested by the tutorial on ubuntu.com and a few comments here and there) but to no avail. I then formatted hd and installed windows again.


#3) This is just a silly point. Seriously, Windows doesn't have anything as remotely functional as a repository system. This is a huge killer feature for any linux distro, and if you don't think software is added fast enough, there are ways you can help with that process.
I agree, but I wasn't comparing my three points to any windows os. Though the thing is, for a former windows user who comes to linux and for that one app has to go through compiling and making and configuring and making sure all dependencies are installed etc, its too much. Windows doesn't have anything compared to the package manager in Ubuntu, but then again everything in windows is click click, click, done. As a former helpdesk guy I can tell you many can't even do that, they have no idea how to install things. But these are of course the extreme cases. Though the point i'm trying to make is that for that one program that isn't in the repositories, they will find it horrible to install from a tar file when all they had previously experience with was click click.

[toupeiro]

This is exactly a point I made earlier. You are an experienced person and could probably install anything on any system. The experience you have with any problem you come across helps you overcome any future problems or allows you to fix problems. However, this also seems to cripple your view of how it truelly is for someone else that doesn't enjoy your experience with *nix systems. Normal people might come across problems while installing Windows, but with a bit of help they can usually fix it. However, even a minor problem during Linux installation will confuse the normal users to the point that with even (remote) help he might not be able to fix it.
You make far too many assumptions... I've gotten over 40 people using ubuntu, all of them have done their own installs, all of them used nothing more than the forums, none of them were in the IT industry or overly computer savvy at all.





You should do a search, it's one of the reasons many Windows users give when leaving Ubuntu and i've read that in many of their 'goodbye' posts. I've installed the latest preload, we'll see what happens.

Ubuntu isn't for everybody, and not everyone will like it, but ubuntu also is not windows. I've never sold ubuntu verbally to be like windows. If you want it to be windows, perhaps that is your problem in a nutshell. Perhaps you should stick with windows if you want windows. I'm not on a crusade to convert people to linux, but I do help those who want to be helped.



There are very many people on this forum that have complained about getting a black screen with flashing cursor during boot up of installation disk or booting up LiveCD.

Because I had the same problem I have done many searches and one think I found they all had in common was that they all had ATI gfx cards, including myself.

I've gotten this very problem myself with an ATi laptop. I googled my problem and found my solution within the first three hits, and it has worked 100% of the time since then. It's usually a boot string you need to put in like pci-noacpi or apic=off. You're saying I should do a search, obviously, I have..., but I don't leave at the first sight of trouble, or I would have left Windows back in the 95 days and likely be a mac user.




I agree, but I wasn't comparing my three points to any windows os. Though the thing is, for a former windows user who comes to linux and for that one app has to go through compiling and making and configuring and making sure all dependencies are installed etc, its too much. Windows doesn't have anything compared to the package manager in Ubuntu, but then again everything in windows is click click, click, done. As a former helpdesk guy I can tell you many can't even do that, they have no idea how to install things. But these are of course the extreme cases. Though the point i'm trying to make is that for that one program that isn't in the repositories, they will find it horrible to install from a tar file when all they had previously experience with was click click.

Soo.. your gripe then is about the very rare instances where your application cannot be found in the repositories. Its funny, being a helpdesk guy, I figured you'd appreciate the fact that in situations like this, the user is NEVER on their own because there is a worldwide helpdesk in the form of this community for ubuntu that can help them. Oh, and windows is not click, click, click done. Wise makes that possible, or installshield, or netopsys, or whatever packager you happen to be using. no different than rpm, deb, pkg. have you ever asked a developer of a tool to make something available in a package format before? I have. and more often than not, they are willing to do so. Try to get a windows developer to change say from netopsys to Installshield.. You say you weren't comparing windows to linux, but in the very next sentence, thats exactly what you did.