Linux is free... but...

[racerraul]

This seems like a popular place to ask a few questions I have about Linux being free and how that aspect I have found in a short while has hurt some projects.

We love the freedom Linux gives us, and I must say I am just recently experiencing it, while many of you have for years already. It is indeed refreshing to not be bound my MS way of every day computing.

But here is the dilema... and I know some of you will say in the end... survival of the fittest... but is it really? Read on...

I have fallen in love with OpenGEU. An ubuntu based distro that uses Enlightements latest E17 DE and plugs in the missing holes with GNOME. I guess the problem is that since E17 is not stable on its own, it is not considered and official Distribution by Canonical, and thus its repositories are not hosted along side those of Kubuntu or Xubuntu for example. That leaves the project managers and hard working coders to themselves to find someone that will host the repositiories.

No big deal right? Well it is, because the cost of hosting the repositories needs to come from somewhere...

Donations... I donated to the project, because it is the only way I can support it since I am not able to code and assist with any project. However... The problem is, mainly, only few people have donated and in almost 3 years of OpenGEU history, they gained something like 200 euros of donations while producing 30GB/Day of internet traffic from our repos and having 7500 visited pages per hour on the website. This much traffic has caused the repos to be inaccessible at the moment.

Well something doesn't sit to well with me. I am beginning to think that the mentality of those exploiting the freedoms afforded to us, is to milk it while it lasts... once that is gone, move on to another flavor since there is soooooooooo much to choose from. I really want to be wrong in this... because that is not the way this was supposed to be.

People... if you are using Linux, whatever flavor of it may be... please donate, buy their t-shirts... whatever else you can to support. There are tons of people working extremely hard on this for the community and unfortunately, not all of them have access to free hosting so that WE can have access to download and later update our systems.

This has nothing to do with adopting the MS way of computing. This is about helping those that grant us our freedoms of computing. We shouldn't let a few bucks get in the way of that because there are other options to exploit.

[.nedberg]

I agree with you!

Everyone should try to give back to the community! Personally I have not donated to Ubuntu. But I have made some small programs (see my signature) and they are free to use for everybody. I also try to hang out here at ubuntuforums to help as much as I can. If I couldn't code or help I think I would have donated, I did pay for Mandriva when I started using Linux so I am not against paying for software/OS.

The spirit of open source is to share what you know and learn what you don't!

[lisati]

Not having the $$$ to contribute to the community, I find whiling away my time at these forums a useful exercise - I sometimes get lucky and find a question I can answer.

[azredwing]

This seems like a popular place to ask a few questions I have about Linux being free and how that aspect I have found in a short while has hurt some projects.

We love the freedom Linux gives us, and I must say I am just recently experiencing it, while many of you have for years already. It is indeed refreshing to not be bound my MS way of every day computing.

But here is the dilema... and I know some of you will say in the end... survival of the fittest... but is it really? Read on...

I have fallen in love with OpenGEU. An ubuntu based distro that uses Enlightements latest E17 DE and plugs in the missing holes with GNOME. I guess the problem is that since E17 is not stable on its own, it is not considered and official Distribution by Canonical, and thus its repositories are not hosted along side those of Kubuntu or Xubuntu for example. That leaves the project managers and hard working coders to themselves to find someone that will host the repositiories.

No big deal right? Well it is, because the cost of hosting the repositories needs to come from somewhere...

Donations... I donated to the project, because it is the only way I can support it since I am not able to code and assist with any project. However... The problem is, mainly, only few people have donated and in almost 3 years of OpenGEU history, they gained something like 200 euros of donations while producing 30GB/Day of internet traffic from our repos and having 7500 visited pages per hour on the website. This much traffic has caused the repos to be inaccessible at the moment.

Well something doesn't sit to well with me. I am beginning to think that the mentality of those exploiting the freedoms afforded to us, is to milk it while it lasts... once that is gone, move on to another flavor since there is soooooooooo much to choose from. I really want to be wrong in this... because that is not the way this was supposed to be.

People... if you are using Linux, whatever flavor of it may be... please donate, buy their t-shirts... whatever else you can to support. There are tons of people working extremely hard on this for the community and unfortunately, not all of them have access to free hosting so that WE can have access to download and later update our systems.

This has nothing to do with adopting the MS way of computing. This is about helping those that grant us our freedoms of computing. We shouldn't let a few bucks get in the way of that because there are other options to exploit.

That's tough. A lot of people scream for free-as-in-speech software, but in reality they're looking for the free beer. This bothers me a LOT. How many of us are only running Ubuntu because it's free? How many of us secretly LIKE Windows/OSX, but only justify using Ubuntu endlessly because it's free? (Let's not start that war here, please.)

It turns out that making quality software is hard work, which is why I am not opposed to paying for software that I find useful. This is why I pay for, say, VMware Workstation even though there are plenty of gratis y libre software out there. This is why I have a license of CrossOver instead of using Wine.

I hate nagware, but at the same time it is hard to keep software development going without financial support from your community. I really don't know of any way to reconcile the two, since your distribution is so small-scale.

Things like this are why part of me actually supports pay-to-play software (games, media editing, professional versions of software, etc). There was a game (not sure of the name) highly recommended by PC Gamer that had absolutely no DRM on it. The choice to not use DRM was to show respect for the players. The company that made the game has gone out of business because of all the piracy. The community that loved the game so much helped kill all innovation coming out of that company because they refused to pay.

That said, our community - and more specifically, YOUR USERS - need to step up! There is NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH! You may want to have your cake and eat it too, but the cake you're eating is from a developer's mouth. Supporting software doesn't mean using it and touting it: in some cases, it really is putting your money where your mouth is!

[lswest]

You don't even need to donate financially, say you're running servers for some other reason, you could offer to become a mirror for their repositories, but I agree, you should help out in whatever way you can. After all, that's the meaning of a "community", people helping each other.

[azredwing]

You don't even need to donate financially, say you're running servers for some other reason, you could offer to become a mirror for their repositories, but I agree, you should help out in whatever way you can. After all, that's the meaning of a "community", people helping each other.

lswest, that is a very good point that I failed to cover. As long as you're somehow giving back, that's the important thing. Bug reports, server donations, beta testing, monetary contribution - all important! Community is by definition a two-way street.

[Mark76]

Once upon a time you paid for software whether it was open or closed source because internet connections just weren't fast or reliable enough to allow people to download huge chunks of data.

I tried OpenGEU. It's an interesting desktop experience. Personally I think they should put it on hiatus until Karsten gets the E17 project finished (if ever a project needed a council rather than a single leader, that one surely qualifies). Then when it can stand on its own two feet approach Debian/Red Hat/Canonical/Novell/Mandriva/Etc about getting a meta package put in their repos.

As for funding. Maybe the Linux Foundation could set something up. People and companies could then contribute and projects could make applications for grants to help sustain them. If the Big Four Linux companies (all the above except Debian) could make serious inroads into the desktop and laptop markets (as well as netbooks), say... 3 to 5% of total annual sales, then maybe they could persuade OEMs to donate some of the profit from each computer sold to the pot. I know that rather relies on human goodwill... But there must be some left in the world.

[racerraul]

you all make excellent points, I certainly didn't mean to imply that money is the only way to contribute.

That said, we all have a $1 to spare... never say you can't donate when minimums are not being set.

a 1$ from every user amount to quite a bit. I don't think the Linux community as a whole is so small that a $1 from its users wouldn't help the people hard at work for us.

At any rate... if you have a buck to spare, its a buck well spent in Linux, IMO.

[blastus]

If torrent repositories (i.e. apt using torrent) ever becomes a reality then the issue of hosting repositories will have been largely solved.

[lswest]

lswest, that is a very good point that I failed to cover. As long as you're somehow giving back, that's the important thing. Bug reports, server donations, beta testing, monetary contribution - all important! Community is by definition a two-way street.

Yup, and technically helping at the forums is also a way to give back, since you're helping Ubuntu gain new users who may have more to offer (if we didn't have the forums, I'm sure most new users would be intimidated to some degree).

[iiiears]

GNU Freedom software is worth supporting.

The alternative is closed source and unresponsive developers writing software that may or may not do what you want and can't be modified by you to your needs.

Likely too software loaded with DRM that threatens other liberties. First Sale, Interoperability, Archival copies, Privacy and possibly freedom of expression via restrictive copyrights.

Generally, proprietary software has only one purpose and that is to make money for the developers, and it seems the more freedom they can wrestle from you the more money they make.

Support GNU with your time, talents, and your dollars. And Remember be polite to developers they often write code for only a kind word.

~Best Wishes.

[Snappo]

All we really need to do is buy a couple of these for the developers. :lolflag:

https://usshop.ubuntu.com/product.php?catid=2&code=09%2056001

Good thread and I will do my part to support this community even if it's only a few dollars we should really support this great operating system/ community.

[azredwing]

GNU Freedom software is worth supporting.

The alternative is closed source and unresponsive developers writing software that may or may not do what you want and can't be modified by you to your needs.

Likely too software loaded with DRM that threatens other liberties. First Sale, Interoperability, Archival copies, Privacy and possibly freedom of expression via restrictive copyrights.

Generally, proprietary software has only one purpose and that is to make money for the developers, and it seems the more freedom they can wrestle from you the more money they make.

Support GNU with your time, talents, and your dollars. And Remember be polite to developers they often write code for only a kind word.

~Best Wishes.

While all true, there IS software out there (games) that are proprietary with NO DRM. I mentioned this before: the company that created the game intentionally did so with no DRM for its users, and the users pirated the crap out of it. That company is now non-existant.

We all may hail GNU as the end-all-be-all for software development, but you have to remember that the world is non-free. If a developer is good at what he does, why can't he make money off of it? In a perfect world, a developer could professionally develop his software without fear of piracy (i.e., he gets paid for it) but at the same time the community contributes and all the code is libre.

You make the assumption that all proprietary code is evil since the developers only want to make money. That is a terrible assumption! If I'm good at coding, why couldn't I market that skill and put food on the table for it?

Another thing: with a professional development there is an expectation (although of course that does not mean there is, as is the case with Microsoft) of quality. For instance, I am an aerospace engineer, and I use the proprietary CAD software Solidworks. There exist plenty of libre y gratis CAD alternatives, but I (and the entire industry) use proprietary software such as this. Why? The quality is better. It's faster, runs analysis more completely and more quickly, and it's very easy to learn.

Basically, I am just saying that there does exist a need and a market for proprietary software, and developers who work on software professionally do deserve to make money to eat from their hard work.

[liamnixon]

If a developer is good at what he does, why can't he make money off of it?

+1,000,000,000,000

As Brian Walsby wrote in one of his comics (he was talking about bands), "You can't pay practice room rent on good vibes, kids."

While I try to live without thinking about making money, it's still important. Personally, and I don't want to sound "holier than thou," I want to pay for Linux, but I don't really have the money because recording crappy local bands/musicians doesn't net a whole lot.

Not that there is anything wrong with distributing things for free, and you can criticize me if you want, but I think people should charge (a reasonably affordable amount, of course) for their distributions and other big programs (like GIMP and Ardour). Then again, they would just get pirated anyway by kids who think they're entitled to it, but I digress...

[bryonak]

This seems like a popular place to ask a few questions I have about Linux being free and how that aspect I have found in a short while has hurt some projects.

We love the freedom Linux gives us, and I must say I am just recently experiencing it, while many of you have for years already. It is indeed refreshing to not be bound my MS way of every day computing.

But here is the dilema... and I know some of you will say in the end... survival of the fittest... but is it really? Read on...

I have fallen in love with OpenGEU. An ubuntu based distro that uses Enlightements latest E17 DE and plugs in the missing holes with GNOME. I guess the problem is that since E17 is not stable on its own, it is not considered and official Distribution by Canonical, and thus its repositories are not hosted along side those of Kubuntu or Xubuntu for example. That leaves the project managers and hard working coders to themselves to find someone that will host the repositiories.

No big deal right? Well it is, because the cost of hosting the repositories needs to come from somewhere...

Donations... I donated to the project, because it is the only way I can support it since I am not able to code and assist with any project. However... The problem is, mainly, only few people have donated and in almost 3 years of OpenGEU history, they gained something like 200 euros of donations while producing 30GB/Day of internet traffic from our repos and having 7500 visited pages per hour on the website. This much traffic has caused the repos to be inaccessible at the moment.

Well something doesn't sit to well with me. I am beginning to think that the mentality of those exploiting the freedoms afforded to us, is to milk it while it lasts... once that is gone, move on to another flavor since there is soooooooooo much to choose from. I really want to be wrong in this... because that is not the way this was supposed to be.

People... if you are using Linux, whatever flavor of it may be... please donate, buy their t-shirts... whatever else you can to support. There are tons of people working extremely hard on this for the community and unfortunately, not all of them have access to free hosting so that WE can have access to download and later update our systems.

This has nothing to do with adopting the MS way of computing. This is about helping those that grant us our freedoms of computing. We shouldn't let a few bucks get in the way of that because there are other options to exploit.

You're right on the spot... in the spirit of the GPL itself, everyone should try to contribute back to the community.

Just one little thing I don't get about your post:
OpenGEU started out as GEUbuntu (Gnome-Enlightenment-Ubuntu). Since Canonical doesn't want alpha software in their repos, which is completely understandable, they don't include E17, which in turn is heavily used by GEU.
They could however still use Ubuntu's repos for the bulk of the software (like Linux Mint does), but then they'd have to write wrappers to ensure E17 running smoothly and wouldn't have much control over the repos. Instead they chose to create their own (maybe they didn't want to leech bandwidth from Canonical?).
They changed the name because of Canonical's branding clause, which IMO is perfectly understandable as well.

On the other hand, there's lots of people who will simply download (or "pirate") software because they want it without giving anything back.
I don't think those people will read this forum, and they won't change their behaviour because the software is "free".
We will get more and more of those as FOSS is becoming popular among the masses.

So... not to spread dissonance, but who exactly are you accusing of exploitation? Because there's clearly some blaming going on in your OP (side by side with the respectable call for contribution).

[SomeGuyDude]

No offense, but while I have no problems helping out with things in terms of tech support and the like, I'm not going to be pouring money into it. I can get windows 100% free legally (college discs I have and a relative who gets them from work). The day Linux becomes more expensive than Windows is the day I go back.

The underlying point here is actually a fairly ironic one: the projects can only survive via donations, which makes them effectively businesses, albeit not-for-profit ones.

[HungryMan]

If torrent repositories (i.e. apt using torrent) ever becomes a reality then the issue of hosting repositories will have been largely solved.

apt-torrent'd be nice, but it looks dead...

@the OP:
You can sell GPL'ed code. Some distro's available only for sale are RH and some fork of Debian with E17 (forgot the name).

And anyway, my 2 cents:
Proprietary software lives on money... FOSS lives on the community.
Proprietary software exists to make money... FOSS exists to serve the community.
The recession may kill Microsoft, Apple, etc... The extinction of humanity will kill FOSS.

And $$$ is not the only way to help the community, contribute art, sounds, an idea, code, pie, cookies, hardware, help, etc...

[BGFG]

No offense, but while I have no problems helping out with things in terms of tech support and the like, I'm not going to be pouring money into it. I can get windows 100% free legally (college discs I have and a relative who gets them from work). The day Linux becomes more expensive than Windows is the day I go back.

The underlying point here is actually a fairly ironic one: the projects can only survive via donations, which makes them effectively businesses, albeit not-for-profit ones.

So you use linux because it's free and better, but if you have to pay for it you'll use windows because you have a hook up ? Nice.

I agree with the OP, which is why i get so annoyed when people even take it a step further and begin scathing criticism and support/customization demands. The internet is breeding a very selfish new type of user and they exist in the FOSS community too.

For as many users who join the forums and contribute, how many just download the iso and use the system never giving anything back. How many others just log in every few months only when they have a problem they can't fix ?

It will never be a perfect world :)

[t0p]

While all true, there IS software out there (games) that are proprietary with NO DRM. I mentioned this before: the company that created the game intentionally did so with no DRM for its users, and the users pirated the crap out of it. That company is now non-existant.


Can you please enlighten us: what was this company called? And what was the game that put this company out of business?

[t0p]

I can get windows 100% free legally (college discs I have and a relative who gets them from work).

Are you sure you can legally use your relative's work disk? Surely it'll be licensed for him only? Remember, the crazy copyright laws say you can't use a disk just because you have one. The disk's owner is not you, your relative or his employer - it's Microsoft.


The day Linux becomes more expensive than Windows is the day I go back.


Oh dear. Never mind, eh?

[azredwing]

Can you please enlighten us: what was this company called? And what was the game that put this company out of business?

I'm trying to find it. It's in a random PC Gamer magazine lying around my apartment. I'll post it when I find it.

[markp1989]

i have donated alittle bit, i brought a mug, and some stickers, a mousemat, and some other stuff. and i seed the torrent, admitingly only at 10kbs, but if every user seeded at 10kbs then it would add up.

[WatchingThePain]

Yes , I have already been thinking that I should at least buy some t-shirts.
Ubuntu has some nice apparel.

[BGFG]

I want one of the messenger bags so bad.... :P

[racerraul]

You're right on the spot... in the spirit of the GPL itself, everyone should try to contribute back to the community.

Just one little thing I don't get about your post:
OpenGEU started out as GEUbuntu (Gnome-Enlightenment-Ubuntu). Since Canonical doesn't want alpha software in their repos, which is completely understandable, they don't include E17, which in turn is heavily used by GEU.
They could however still use Ubuntu's repos for the bulk of the software (like Linux Mint does), but then they'd have to write wrappers to ensure E17 running smoothly and wouldn't have much control over the repos. Instead they chose to create their own (maybe they didn't want to leech bandwidth from Canonical?).
They changed the name because of Canonical's branding clause, which IMO is perfectly understandable as well.

On the other hand, there's lots of people who will simply download (or "pirate") software because they want it without giving anything back.
I don't think those people will read this forum, and they won't change their behaviour because the software is "free".
We will get more and more of those as FOSS is becoming popular among the masses.

So... not to spread dissonance, but who exactly are you accusing of exploitation? Because there's clearly some blaming going on in your OP (side by side with the respectable call for contribution).

I think I read on the OpenGEu forums the reason for the rebranding... IIRC Canonical never reponded to their requests... therefore the name change.

Working from memory here so please correct me if I am wrong.


No offense, but while I have no problems helping out with things in terms of tech support and the like, I'm not going to be pouring money into it. I can get windows 100% free legally (college discs I have and a relative who gets them from work). The day Linux becomes more expensive than Windows is the day I go back.

The underlying point here is actually a fairly ironic one: the projects can only survive via donations, which makes them effectively businesses, albeit not-for-profit ones.

You have a lot to learn it seems,,,

If you are getting windows through education channels, that would be legal on if you are a qualified student or education member.

If you are obtaning windows through a relative that does not own the copies or liscenses his employer paid for, that is illegal. You can brag about your connections, but be mindful who you make them to. Or you might just get burned.

You don't have to pay for Linux and likely never will. My post has nothing to do with commercializing Linux. But rather looking out for each other in the community. Helping out in any way we can, be it tech support, coding and with donations. There is no dotten line detailing you have to do all or none... it is voluntary.

And there not need to be any shame on to those than can't code or offer support and choose to give a small donation. The reality is, that to get us what we need, there are certain costs involved.

[underage]

I agree with you.

Unfortunately some people are like that... I must say it again... unfortunately MOST of the people are like that.

Ask to become a repository you don't have to give money.

[daverich]

well- I just bought a mousemat thanks to this thread and will be buying more bits and pieces for birthday presents etc.

Kind regards

Dave Rich

[Warpnow]

That's tough. A lot of people scream for free-as-in-speech software, but in reality they're looking for the free beer. This bothers me a LOT. How many of us are only running Ubuntu because it's free? How many of us secretly LIKE Windows/OSX, but only justify using Ubuntu endlessly because it's free? (Let's not start that war here, please.)

If you can install ubuntu, you can pirate windows.

Its super easy.

[PriceChild]

Warpnow that isn't appropriate. Piracy is illegal, that's why its called piracy.

[3rdalbum]

I bought some merchandise from the Canonical store and now that I have an online-capable funds card I'll start donating to worthy projects.

[mister_p_1998]

Once upon a time you paid for software whether it was open or closed source because internet connections just weren't fast or reliable enough to allow people to download huge chunks of data.

I tried OpenGEU. It's an interesting desktop experience.

I just spent a morning trying to install Opengeo, couldnt get past the initramfs busybox error, couldnt even launch the livecd, tried three different machines, none booted.

[Mark76]

That's weird. It worked for me.

Then again, I might have just ran it in Qemu.

[S0VERE1GN]

Using Torrents to support repos makes a lot of sense, and so does donations.

as for Linux being more expensive than Ubuntu? i don't think that will happen, unless you want it to. Somebody's gotta makeup for the cheap skates :-p

the Playstation network uses torrents for a lot of its downloads now. works great.

[BGFG]

Glad you mentioned torrents. How many time do we see 20 seeds 190 leeches ? and such ratios ? If you have really small bandwith it's understandable but many users are just selfish. That is the attitude that will ultimately cost them all their 'free' downloads.

[racerraul]

I just spent a morning trying to install Opengeo, couldnt get past the initramfs busybox error, couldnt even launch the livecd, tried three different machines, none booted.

I ran into a similar problem with Elive's live cd on my system... but it did work on my old AMD 2700, Nforce system.

[racerraul]

Forgot to mention that the issue with the repositories for OpenGEU have been resolved.

Good news for me since I am such a fan of E+Ubuntu...
It's as good as Cafe con Leche :)

[chriskin]

Using Torrents to support repos makes a lot of sense, and so does donations.

as for Linux being more expensive than Ubuntu? i don't think that will happen, unless you want it to. Somebody's gotta makeup for the cheap skates :-p

the Playstation network uses torrents for a lot of its downloads now. works great.

can't really understand what you are saying, isn't ubuntu linux? :P


back to the topic once more
some people just can't give any money for help, either because of their financial problems, or because they just can't do it. explaining the last part, i always wanted to donate but i just can't get a paypal account - try persuading my family to agree that online banks are safe..
so all i can do i try to help new comers having minor issues :S


No offense, but while I have no problems helping out with things in terms of tech support and the like, I'm not going to be pouring money into it. I can get windows 100% free legally (college discs I have and a relative who gets them from work). The day Linux becomes more expensive than Windows is the day I go back.

The underlying point here is actually a fairly ironic one: the projects can only survive via donations, which makes them effectively businesses, albeit not-for-profit ones.

it's a pity that one of us thinks like that.

[LowSky]

some people just can't give any money for help, either because of their financial problems, or because they just can't do it. explaining the last part, i always wanted to donate but i just can't get a paypal account - try persuading my family to agree that online banks are safe..
so all i can do i try to help new comers having minor issues :S


I understand if you are young and can not enter an agreement to use things such as PAYPAL. But like it has been said you can help out with things from artwork, language support, and documentation.
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate/NonTechnicalUsers

If your more technical and know how to write code
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate/developerzone
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate/TechnicalUsers

Or even do BETA testing by using 9.04 before its release. Testing for bugs helps users later. It one of the way I help, not to mention keeps me cutting edge. :guitar:

[chriskin]

I understand if you are young and can not enter an agreement to use things such as PAYPAL. But like it has been said you can help out with things from artwork, language support, and documentation.
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate/NonTechnicalUsers

If your more technical and know how to write code
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate/developerzone
http://www.ubuntu.com/community/participate/TechnicalUsers

Or even do BETA testing by using 9.04 before its release. Testing for bugs helps users later. It one of the way I help, not to mention keeps me cutting edge. :guitar:
already testing 9.04 since alpha6 and helping around here
next year i will (hopefully) enter computer science university. then i will do my best to write code for the community

[Skripka]

I donated some of my money to Arch....and got a nice pen in exchange. :)


OpenGEU and E17 both suffer from pitifully small dev teams. Which is a shame as E17 environments can run on lesser computers than Xubuntu or Ubuntu.

Part of the reason Geubuntu became "OpenGEU", was because to use the *buntu trademark you need to be based on stable software. E17 has been in beta nearly as long as Gmail -that long yes, and still is not fully functional/stable, and won't be for some time to come--who knows how long.

I used OpenGEU for 4-6 months and posted on their forums under the same user handle...but the small dev/bugfix team coupled with the cranky E17 led me back to more mainstream KDE-simply because things were developed and fixed far faster. I still keep an E environment on my Arch box, but until I can do the same window managing macros with E that I can with KDE I am staying where I am.

[BigSilly]

I think once the Linux community starts getting heavy handed or dealing out guilt trips over donations, then really it's time to just start charging for your OS. People do as much as they can, and the truth is not everyone can afford to be as altruistic as others within the community. Something's either free or it isn't. If it's free with a huge but, then just charge for it. Ubuntu's mantra is that it's always going to be free to download and use as you wish. I always do whatever I can, be it offering help to those who I can help, simply and politely (and appropriately) spreading the word, or handing out free discs etc. I haven't donated any money yet, but I certainly will when I'm sorted and in a better position to, and not because someone in the community or on the forums forced me to. Speaking specifically about Ubuntu, it would be worth the money anyway and I would find a way to pay for it somehow.

I don't think it's there for others to judge just what is an acceptable level of contribution. Free has to mean free in all senses, otherwise won't people just pirate Windows and be done with community politics? It just plays into Microsoft's hands. Otherwise let's end the pretence and just charge a fair price for the system. That way I don't have a collection of people judging me for my unacceptable level of contribution because I'm not a programmer.

[WatchingThePain]

If you can install ubuntu, you can pirate windows.

Its super easy.

That is one of the reasons many Windows desktops are open to attack.
The pirate versions have often been engineered for 'easy access' by hackers.
Lets think about this...Joe Bloggs goes out and buys Windows. Then out of the 'kindness of his heart' he uploads it to share with others?. I don't think so.
Pirate software is a bad idea and of course illegal.
If you use Ubuntu you don't need to have fake software.

[Warpnow]

Warpnow that isn't appropriate. Piracy is illegal, that's why its called piracy.

I'm not advocating it.

But it being illegal doesn't mean we should ignore it in our logical thought process.

If price alone were the reason people switched to ubuntu, then you have to wonder why they didn't just use a downloaded version.

Which is why I think that argument is crap.

The free as in beer aspect makes it easier for people to switch, but its not the pushing factor. Something makes people want to leave windows/osx, and there are more pulls than price. People like something else about linux.

[swoll1980]

Price isn't the reason people use Linux. 99% of people that bought computers got a copy of Windows with it. People that build there own might have motivation to use Linux, but other than that I don't see people using Linux because it's free. Also as someone else mentioned piracy whether it's illegal
or not will help a lot of those people.

[jms1989]

I try to contribute in anyway I can by seeding whenever possible and helping folks out on these forums. If only I have a webserver somewhere on the web with about 40GBs, I'd mirror the latest version of ubuntu but I don't. How big are the all the 8.10 isos? Maybe I could mirror just those.

I'd like to donate some money, where is the donate button? I didn't see it.

[Kareeser]

Unfortunately, mirroring is out of the option for home servers, which yours might be?

Residential connections don't have the upstream capacity to mirror ubuntu versions... :)

[jms1989]

Unfortunately, mirroring is out of the option for home servers, which yours might be?

Residential connections don't have the upstream capacity to mirror ubuntu versions... :)

Actually, I wasn't going to use my local server. I have a webhosting account with about 20GB of total space I can use.

Hmm, I forgot I had already mirrored the 8.10 isos in my webhost and its consuming only 4.6GB. Its located at www.michaelsweb.uni.cc/mirrors/ubuntu/.

[swoll1980]

Hmm, I forgot I had already mirrored the 8.10 isos in my webhost and its consuming only 4.6GB. Its located at www.michaelsweb.uni.cc/mirrors/ubuntu/.

What a odd thing to forget about. :-k

[BGFG]

I think once the Linux community starts getting heavy handed or dealing out guilt trips over donations, then really it's time to just start charging for your OS. People do as much as they can, and the truth is not everyone can afford to be as altruistic as others within the community. Something's either free or it isn't. If it's free with a huge but, then just charge for it. Ubuntu's mantra is that it's always going to be free to download and use as you wish. I always do whatever I can, be it offering help to those who I can help, simply and politely (and appropriately) spreading the word, or handing out free discs etc. I haven't donated any money yet, but I certainly will when I'm sorted and in a better position to, and not because someone in the community or on the forums forced me to. Speaking specifically about Ubuntu, it would be worth the money anyway and I would find a way to pay for it somehow.

I don't think it's there for others to judge just what is an acceptable level of contribution. Free has to mean free in all senses, otherwise won't people just pirate Windows and be done with community politics? It just plays into Microsoft's hands. Otherwise let's end the pretence and just charge a fair price for the system. That way I don't have a collection of people judging me for my unacceptable level of contribution because I'm not a programmer.

I think you missed the point a bit and took it quite personally. rather than a long post i'll just say that many open source projects pop up every day and many drop off. All these projects are downloaded thousands of times, but some still drop off for financial reasons. Free ideals can't put a programmers children through school or buy groceries.

I contribute by trying to help others. So do ALL of the other members of this forum, or most :) but when i can I will support finincially. No one is under any obligation to, but some of our projects would appreciate it and deserve it.

[WatchingThePain]

Free as in beer?.
If Beer is free then I have been frequenting the wrong pubs.

Windows is not free neither is Linux.

Consider the learning curve of Linux then the time to learn.

I don't think people use Linux because they can't afford Windows. If that's so in some cases then glad to assist.
I think those of us who can donate a little should. It's like if you support West Ham (for example) you see the matches and pay. We don't have to pay to use lovely Ubuntu or to use the forums and I'm sure Linux does not run on fresh air.
So if one can afford an Ubuntu mug or donation then one should indulge oneself. Or just help ppl in the forums.
It's only right and terribly good for the Karma.


Sell your shoes..buy a Linux t-shirt!.

[swoll1980]

Free as in beer?.
If Beer is free then I have been frequenting the wrong pubs.

I thought free as in beer referred to open source, not free of cost.

[WatchingThePain]

Hmph..the trouble is ..I have had a beer.
Talk to you tommorow.
Sorry..I must remember..'Avoid the business side'.

Your my bestest mate.

Anyway..what's open source beer?

[bakedbeans4life]

Hmph..the trouble is ..I have had a beer.
Talk to you tommorow.
Sorry..I must remember..'Avoid the business side'.

Your my bestest mate.

Anyway..what's open source beer?

It's Friday, enjoy your beer.

[WatchingThePain]

It's Friday, enjoy your beer.

Lol..it's Monday here, you seem like a good prospective drinking buddy.

I'm on the new vodka diet..I've lost two weeks in the first three days!.

Anyway..we must not divert the topic ahem.

[swoll1980]

Anyway..what's open source beer?

It's when they send you the ingredients, and the recipe. You can change the recipe, or share it with your friends. Just like open source software, except it's beer.

[racerraul]

I think once the Linux community starts getting heavy handed or dealing out guilt trips over donations, then really it's time to just start charging for your OS. People do as much as they can, and the truth is not everyone can afford to be as altruistic as others within the community. Something's either free or it isn't. If it's free with a huge but, then just charge for it. Ubuntu's mantra is that it's always going to be free to download and use as you wish. I always do whatever I can, be it offering help to those who I can help, simply and politely (and appropriately) spreading the word, or handing out free discs etc. I haven't donated any money yet, but I certainly will when I'm sorted and in a better position to, and not because someone in the community or on the forums forced me to. Speaking specifically about Ubuntu, it would be worth the money anyway and I would find a way to pay for it somehow.

I don't think it's there for others to judge just what is an acceptable level of contribution. Free has to mean free in all senses, otherwise won't people just pirate Windows and be done with community politics? It just plays into Microsoft's hands. Otherwise let's end the pretence and just charge a fair price for the system. That way I don't have a collection of people judging me for my unacceptable level of contribution because I'm not a programmer.

There are no minimums, or any judging going on. Sounds like you help in anyway you can, and that is more than enough.

All that said, we all have a $1, a pound or single Euro to spare. It certainly wouldn't hurt 1 bit to give that dollar to the ubuntu comm... if everyone did that, you sit here and explain to me why that would be bad or go against the fact that Linux is free and should remain as so...

On the other hand, I can tell you how long that single tiny contribution would go in facilitating and obtain the resources the gurus that code for us need so that we can continue to enjoy our freedoms in computing...

Don't misunderstand the message here... NO ONE is being judged.

[swoll1980]

There are no minimums, or any judging going on. Sounds like you help in anyway you can, and that is more than enough.

All that said, we all have a $1,

If everyone that used Ubuntu gave a dollar to Ubuntu it would be millions of dollars donated to a distro that is owned by someone that is rich, and is trying to make more money. No thanks.

[dtoronto]

Open Source is a huge industry. IBM is in the process of merging with Sun Microsystems and Google is pouring money into different Linux projects. Just because people don't donate money doesn't mean that Open Source apps and OS's aren't receiving adequate funding. Realistically if there wasn't any funding there would be no Ubuntu and Linux would still be running on something similar to its original kernel.

[cardinals_fan]

Open Source is a huge industry. IBM is in the process of cancelling a merger with Sun Microsystems and Google is pouring money into different Linux projects. Just because people don't donate money doesn't mean that Open Source apps and OS's aren't receiving adequate funding. Realistically if there wasn't any funding there would be no Ubuntu and Linux would still be running on something similar to its original kernel.
Fixed that for you ;)

[Firestem4]

Personally. If I HAD any money I would definitely support FLOSS projects by donating to them. It is one way I can contribute because I can not program, or have the resources to host info, etc etc.

Thankfully, As a community, there are endless thousands among us who willingly contribute time, money, and other resources to these projects. And a big thank you to those!

[Skorzen]

This topic may lead us to an interesting discussion.

What you've related is a really sad situation. People code, but don't have funds to invest in a hosting solution for the good of the community.

I think that if there is someone using their software (which I know there are), then they should see that situation as the perfect time for donating some money.

I don't code because it isn't my nature (systems administration is simpler). :-) BUT, when I appreciate the efforts of some projects in the community for bringing us the best software one could have, then I am pleasured to donate some money.

I believe in the freedom, and in an donation-based development.

[racerraul]

If everyone that used Ubuntu gave a dollar to Ubuntu it would be millions of dollars donated to a distro that is owned by someone that is rich, and is trying to make more money. No thanks.

That someone has created a company that is providing jobs for people to code and gratuitously provide us with an EXCELLENT operating system...

Think outside of the box for a second, and stop thinking Gates is at the other end...

[cardinals_fan]

That someone has created a company that is providing jobs for people to code and gratuitously provide us with an EXCELLENT operating system...

Think outside of the box for a second, and stop thinking Gates is at the other end...
Canonical is a for-profit company. I don't have any problem with that - I will almost certainly work for a for-profit firm after I graduate.

However, remember that Canonical is required to release the source for Ubuntu. If they charged for it, a free clone would instantly appear.

[dmizer]

But here is the dilema... and I know some of you will say in the end... survival of the fittest... but is it really? Read on...

<snip>

Donations... I donated to the project, because it is the only way I can support it since I am not able to code and assist with any project. However... The problem is, mainly, only few people have donated and in almost 3 years of OpenGEU history, they gained something like 200 euros of donations while producing 30GB/Day of internet traffic from our repos and having 7500 visited pages per hour on the website. This much traffic has caused the repos to be inaccessible at the moment.

Well something doesn't sit to well with me. I am beginning to think that the mentality of those exploiting the freedoms afforded to us, is to milk it while it lasts... once that is gone, move on to another flavor since there is soooooooooo much to choose from. I really want to be wrong in this... because that is not the way this was supposed to be.

Actually, this IS the way it's supposed to be. Lest we forget, paying for software doesn't guarantee it's survival either. There are more than a few closed source programs that have failed despite being excellent programs. Some have failed BECAUSE they were so good (swallowed and extinguished by a larger competing company).

Pump all the money you want into any project (open or closed), if it's mismanaged (by employees or by it's community) it will fail.

Not saying that people shouldn't donate money to a project, but monetary donations alone won't keep a project afloat.

[BGFG]

This topic may lead us to an interesting discussion.

What you've related is a really sad situation. People code, but don't have funds to invest in a hosting solution for the good of the community.

I think that if there is someone using their software (which I know there are), then they should see that situation as the perfect time for donating some money.

I don't code because it isn't my nature (systems administration is simpler). :-) BUT, when I appreciate the efforts of some projects in the community for bringing us the best software one could have, then I am pleasured to donate some money.

I believe in the freedom, and in an donation-based development.

I strongly agree :)
i keep thinking of an opensource music production project that was experiencing problems.(the thread was in the cafe) The lead programmer honestly said it was a funding issue, and politely pointed out that the software in question had been downloaded thousands of times. But donations to the project were all but non existant.

It has always been my intention to donate to projects that i use, and that attitude has been with me since my days of using free windows programs. Currently i simply can't afford a credit card, but when my finances change, so will the way in which i express my gratitude to hard working programmers across the globe.

Windows: projects like Imgburn, InfraRecorder, SandboxIE, SIW
GNU/Linux:this list could be ridiculously long :)

[Depressed Man]

This is something I've thought of myself. So I created a list in Notecase (ironically notecase is on this list). Of projects that I use frequently and when I do have a job and can afford to donate money (going to graduate school is going eat up what funds I have... sniff going be 60k in debt >.<) I will donate to all the projects I love.

Till then, I can only donate my time and what knowledge I have to help others.

[racerraul]

Actually, this IS the way it's supposed to be. Lest we forget, paying for software doesn't guarantee it's survival either. There are more than a few closed source programs that have failed despite being excellent programs. Some have failed BECAUSE they were so good (swallowed and extinguished by a larger competing company).

Pump all the money you want into any project (open or closed), if it's mismanaged (by employees or by it's community) it will fail.

Not saying that people shouldn't donate money to a project, but monetary donations alone won't keep a project afloat.

You're absolutely right... there is no guarantee donations would ensure the survival of any project.

But I want to clarify something for those that are so concerned about commercializing Linux.

A donation by definition is this.. The act of giving to a fund or cause. A gift or grant.

By that definition, there is nothing that says that such a donation has to be financial. It just so happens that is an option for those with nothing else to offer and wanting to participate. And that does help with certain aspects of distribution.

If you sit there and worry about donating because you are concerned with making somebody rich, you missed the whole point of donating entirely.

[racerraul]

Till then, I can only donate my time and what knowledge I have to help others.

That's it... that is what is all about.
That is enough... I am not able to assist with my knowledge yet... so I donated in what I thought was appropriate, and you know what?

In having that choice, and the freedom of making my own choices, is what motivates me. It is what makes Linux superior to being bound by products that dictate how we use our computers.

That freedom is worth investing in, so I was freely able to do so...

what a great feeling gang...

[mister_p_1998]

I ran into a similar problem with Elive's live cd on my system... but it did work on my old AMD 2700, Nforce system.
I'm just installing Elive now, no problems apart from being VERY slow!
Steve

[mister_p_1998]

Well, with a wife and two kids, I dont have a lot of spare cash... but I always help out with Tech Support in the Forums if I can.
Steve

[macogw]

I'm confused. Why does OpenGEU need its own full repositories? If it's Ubuntu-based, they can setup sources.list with all Ubuntu repositories, then on *just* the packages that they're replacing, they could, for example, put an epoch in the version number or just set OpenGEU's repository (which only has the OpenGEU-specific packages) to a higher priority in apt.conf. They shouldn't need to have their own copies of every single package.

Hungryman: Er...Intrepid has the option of using apt-torrent. It's not dead.

I'm not going to argue against contributing though. Learn to package, and help the MOTU. If you've got an eye for design, join the art team. Polyglot? Translate software and documentation.

I know people that think it's weird that I contribute. My response was "it's been two whole years! Of course I'm contributing. I don't want to just leech off everyone else." Then they told me they'd used Linux for 7 years. Oh. Wow. What are they waiting for?


If everyone that used Ubuntu gave a dollar to Ubuntu it would be millions of dollars donated to a distro that is owned by someone that is rich, and is trying to make more money. No thanks.
Led, not owned. He doesn't own the distro. He owns Canonical, which has not made a profit. Mark was a Debian Developer. He wants to see Linux succeed on the desktop (remember Bug 1?), so he started a company (Canonical) to pay FOSS developers. The money to pay them has, thus far, come out of his own pocket because they haven't made a profit. Hopefully, tech support contracts and proprietary companies that want to use Launchpad for non-FOSS stuff will mean enough income that they can afford to continue paying these FOSS developers.


I want one of the messenger bags so bad.... :P
No you don't. They fall apart. My boyfriend's had one for like 6 months. The top part of the bag where the handle's attached has no reinforcement, so the handle's just ornamental. If you try to use it, as he did, the top of the bag starts to rip off. The seam's open for about 7in (17cm) along the top. The zipper fell apart too.

-------
And "free as in beer" refers to price.

[WatchingThePain]

It's when they send you the ingredients, and the recipe. You can change the recipe, or share it with your friends. Just like open source software, except it's beer.

That is actually a good explanation.

[racerraul]

I'm confused. Why does OpenGEU need its own full repositories? If it's Ubuntu-based, they can setup sources.list with all Ubuntu repositories, then on *just* the packages that they're replacing, they could, for example, put an epoch in the version number or just set OpenGEU's repository (which only has the OpenGEU-specific packages) to a higher priority in apt.conf. They shouldn't need to have their own copies of every single package.



Only the repositories for their E17 work... not the rest of the stuff.
Unfortunately, they are off on their own for the E17 stuff because it is not considered stable enough to be an official Ubuntu distro... or so is what I understand so far... someone chime if I got it wrong.

Nonetheless... linuxfreedom.org has stepped up and helped and if I am not mistaken at no cost... so all is good as of now.

[zenithdave]

I would happily pay for Ubuntu if asked :D its worth many times what i paid for the last OS :D

Dam i even got a used 64 bit CPU off ebay, ram is coming tomorrow then i have 4 gig :D, now thats inspiration.

I got some new hardware cos i was fascinated not because it was broken :D

[mdshann]

Things like this are why part of me actually supports pay-to-play software (games, media editing, professional versions of software, etc). There was a game (not sure of the name) highly recommended by PC Gamer that had absolutely no DRM on it. The choice to not use DRM was to show respect for the players. The company that made the game has gone out of business because of all the piracy. The community that loved the game so much helped kill all innovation coming out of that company because they refused to pay.


Do you mean Galactic Civilizations and Gal Civ 2? Thats from Stardock, and they are still very much in business. They are the same makers of WindowBlinds and Object Desktop for Windows. They also made the game Demigod which was released this year I think. So if that's who you're talking about then no they are not out of business. In fact a lot of pirates bought the game because of their stance on DRM. I'm not saying that piracy is good, but I will say that when I buy a game one of the first things I do is go to the pirate sites and download no-cd cracks and such just so I don't have to deal with DRM schemes that make it harder for me to enjoy my paid for game. It's sad when we buy software and have more trouble using it because of DRM than people who download and use it without the hassles associated with DRM. Why should a broadband internet connection be required just to activate and reactivate a SINGLE PLAYER GAME! (Bioshock, Mass Effect, any other recent EA Game that requires you to reactivate online every 5 days are examples of this) If your anything like me and reload your windows system every 6 months to a year it can get very tiresome dealing with games you payed $60 for that only let you activate them a grand total of 3 times!

http://www.stardock.com/

[HappyFeet]

This seems like a popular place to ask a few questions I have about Linux being free and how that aspect I have found in a short while has hurt some projects.

We love the freedom Linux gives us, and I must say I am just recently experiencing it, while many of you have for years already. It is indeed refreshing to not be bound my MS way of every day computing.

But here is the dilema... and I know some of you will say in the end... survival of the fittest... but is it really? Read on...

I have fallen in love with OpenGEU. An ubuntu based distro that uses Enlightements latest E17 DE and plugs in the missing holes with GNOME. I guess the problem is that since E17 is not stable on its own, it is not considered and official Distribution by Canonical, and thus its repositories are not hosted along side those of Kubuntu or Xubuntu for example. That leaves the project managers and hard working coders to themselves to find someone that will host the repositiories.

No big deal right? Well it is, because the cost of hosting the repositories needs to come from somewhere...

Donations... I donated to the project, because it is the only way I can support it since I am not able to code and assist with any project. However... The problem is, mainly, only few people have donated and in almost 3 years of OpenGEU history, they gained something like 200 euros of donations while producing 30GB/Day of internet traffic from our repos and having 7500 visited pages per hour on the website. This much traffic has caused the repos to be inaccessible at the moment.

Well something doesn't sit to well with me. I am beginning to think that the mentality of those exploiting the freedoms afforded to us, is to milk it while it lasts... once that is gone, move on to another flavor since there is soooooooooo much to choose from. I really want to be wrong in this... because that is not the way this was supposed to be.

People... if you are using Linux, whatever flavor of it may be... please donate, buy their t-shirts... whatever else you can to support. There are tons of people working extremely hard on this for the community and unfortunately, not all of them have access to free hosting so that WE can have access to download and later update our systems.

This has nothing to do with adopting the MS way of computing. This is about helping those that grant us our freedoms of computing. We shouldn't let a few bucks get in the way of that because there are other options to exploit.

Your sentiments mean nothing. I love linux and everything associated. I deal with windows everyday, doesn't mean I have to like it.

[racerraul]

Your sentiments mean nothing. I love linux and everything associated. I deal with windows everyday, doesn't mean I have to like it.

My sentiments mean nothing, yet you love Linux?
You got from my post that you had to like Windows?
You drunk?

[magmon]

That's tough. A lot of people scream for free-as-in-speech software, but in reality they're looking for the free beer. This bothers me a LOT. How many of us are only running Ubuntu because it's free? How many of us secretly LIKE Windows/OSX, but only justify using Ubuntu endlessly because it's free? (Let's not start that war here, please.)


I personally have nothing against windows or osx. I like the software they can run, I don't mind the interface of either of them, and I believe they deserve their spot near the top. BUT, I prefer my mint 7.0 over them (and other linux flavors for that matter) because it is fully customizable, and I like the color scheme and menu/taskbar setup. I believe if people wanted to run windows for free, it would be all too easy. I have personally hacked windows to activate it because my license expired (which is total BS) and made it past microsoft's legitimacy test. I believe that people use linux because of the freedom, but not only that. They use it because it is more customizable, more able to fit their personal needs. They use it because it is faster, it is prettier, it has more features, and it doesn't hold them back.

And so, I absolutely agree that you should donate to your distro. And although Im running mint, I may buy an ubuntu flash drive to support the distro that mine is based off of.

Free as in beer is an interesting concept. Someone still has to buy that beer, and we should all pitch in :)

[cariboo]

Windows licenses don't expire, you can only validate the license 3 times via the internet, then all you have to do is call the 800 number and revalidate it, I've done it several times, and never had a problem. You may have to tell a fib, like Windows crashed a 4th time and you need to reinstall.

[HappinessNow]

You may have to tell a fib, like Windows crashed a 4th time and you need to reinstall.

That could actually be the truth also, I think I have done at least 4 reinstalls ;)

[lisati]

That could actually be the truth also, I think I have done at least 4 reinstalls ;)

I've lost count of the number of reinstalls I've done. Perhaps I've been fortunate, but none of the win98SE installs I've done needed activation (the way it was designed, perhaps? WIN98SE is the only "real" Windows disk I have), as was the case with the OEM recovery partitions/DVDs I've used for XP and Vista. Sounds like a pain in the posterior to have to ring up to have software you've already paid for to be unlocked.

[bodhi.zazen]

Just passing through.

Off topic posts discussing religion (in not so good terms I might note) were jailed.

Some posts were borderline in terms of the CoC.

Please keep it civil in her folks =)

[PartisanEntity]

Thank you to the OP,

I must admit that while I have been using Ubuntu for some years now, and while I have thought about donating money, I have not actually done so in all this time.

This is something I will catch up on.


No offense, but while I have no problems helping out with things in terms of tech support and the like, I'm not going to be pouring money into it. I can get windows 100% free legally (college discs I have and a relative who gets them from work). The day Linux becomes more expensive than Windows is the day I go back.

The underlying point here is actually a fairly ironic one: the projects can only survive via donations, which makes them effectively businesses, albeit not-for-profit ones.

I must say that I join the ranks of those who were annoyed by this post.


Your use of the educationally licenced Windows is most probably illegal as being a relative does not usually qualify use of software.

Further, usually the licence for educational institutions is for using the product at the institution and not at your home.

The second annoying point you make is that you state your (most probably illegal) free access to an otherwise costly product as your benchmark for Linux, very unfair.

[racerraul]

There is no deying that Microsoft has left many, for lack of better words... a sour taste in their mouths.

And has become a very successful empire financially while doing so.

However, that does not mean supporting your favorite distribution would turn Linux distributions into the same or that we should be weary of financially rewarding the developers of free software in fears they would become as evil as MS.

There is nothing in the GPL or the freedom it grants its community that says, we should not make a profit off Linux or free software. On the contrary, we are encouraged to do so and it even outlines how it is possible.

As a matter of fact, I am exercising that freedom, pun intended ;)

The business is a side business, but one I am developing. Building Linux based computers locally. The markup on the HW is very low, and I give 90days hardware & Linux, support with the purchase. Beyond that 90days there are other charges for my support. And for each computer sold, I donate a small amount to the distribution I use on the build... after all if they go away, there goes my business... I could switch but that would be tedious and could render my tech docs useless...

Developers gotta eat, pay hosting fees, bandwidth fees, for their own hardware to code on, etc...

They deserve what little you can afford.

[GreenDance]

If torrent repositories (i.e. apt using torrent) ever becomes a reality then the issue of hosting repositories will have been largely solved.

can this not be done, a home pc running a torrent app with rss, as soon as an update is available the rss see it, the torrent is downloaded.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=265282 this thread talks about a command line torrent, perhaps that could be used on the ubuntu minimal cd?

could the ubuntu update manager not be changed to use torrents?

just a couple ideas :)

[Post Monkeh]

Price isn't the reason people use Linux. 99% of people that bought computers got a copy of Windows with it. People that build there own might have motivation to use Linux, but other than that I don't see people using Linux because it's free. Also as someone else mentioned piracy whether it's illegal
or not will help a lot of those people.

i didn't download ubuntu because it's free (as in beer), i downloaded it because windows vista was rubbish and nearly killed my laptop (came pre-installed).

i could have just got a copy of xp cheap, but i thought i would try something different. it's been a bit of a learning experience, but on my laptop, i wouldn't be without it now. it does everything i need on a laptop (browsing, email, paperwork, lightweight games) and i think that provided any new laptops i get in years to come are supported by linux, i'll have one distro or another as my laptop os. personally speaking, i don't think it would make a difference to me now whether it was free or not. quite simply i think ubuntu is the best operating system i have used for what i'm currently using my laptop for, and if it wasn't free, i would pay to have it. the interesting thing is of course that if it wasn't free, i may have never tried it in the first place, i would have likely just stuck with vista.

[Post Monkeh]

I've lost count of the number of reinstalls I've done. Perhaps I've been fortunate, but none of the win98SE installs I've done needed activation (the way it was designed, perhaps? WIN98SE is the only "real" Windows disk I have), as was the case with the OEM recovery partitions/DVDs I've used for XP and Vista. Sounds like a pain in the posterior to have to ring up to have software you've already paid for to be unlocked.

it's really pretty painless, in xp anyway. when you're installing, you get a code. you ring an automated helpline, type in your code, and they give you a different code to input in the activation process. take less than 5 minutes.

[jms1989]

it's really pretty painless, in xp anyway. when you're installing, you get a code. you ring an automated helpline, type in your code, and they give you a different code to input in the activation process. take less than 5 minutes.

I've gone through that process before. I just told them that my system crashed and I had to do a reinstall and it wouldn't let me activate online. I had no problems with the reps. I even was able to talk to a english-speaking Chinese lady during the process. :) I guess it depends on the person you are redirected to. ;)

That was back when I kept doing things to windows that caused it to crash and I didn't have the know-how to fix it so I just reinstalled multiple times in one year.

[/usr/sbin]

That's tough. A lot of people scream for free-as-in-speech software, but in reality they're looking for the free beer. This bothers me a LOT. How many of us are only running Ubuntu because it's free? How many of us secretly LIKE Windows/OSX, but only justify using Ubuntu endlessly because it's free? (Let's not start that war here, please.)

It turns out that making quality software is hard work, which is why I am not opposed to paying for software that I find useful. This is why I pay for, say, VMware Workstation even though there are plenty of gratis y libre software out there. This is why I have a license of CrossOver instead of using Wine.

I hate nagware, but at the same time it is hard to keep software development going without financial support from your community. I really don't know of any way to reconcile the two, since your distribution is so small-scale.

Things like this are why part of me actually supports pay-to-play software (games, media editing, professional versions of software, etc). There was a game (not sure of the name) highly recommended by PC Gamer that had absolutely no DRM on it. The choice to not use DRM was to show respect for the players. The company that made the game has gone out of business because of all the piracy. The community that loved the game so much helped kill all innovation coming out of that company because they refused to pay.

That said, our community - and more specifically, YOUR USERS - need to step up! There is NO SUCH THING AS A FREE LUNCH! You may want to have your cake and eat it too, but the cake you're eating is from a developer's mouth. Supporting software doesn't mean using it and touting it: in some cases, it really is putting your money where your mouth is!

The game that they made was called Demigod i think and over 120,000 people had pirated it at the start!

[mikewhatever]

it's really pretty painless, in xp anyway. when you're installing, you get a code. you ring an automated helpline, type in your code, and they give you a different code to input in the activation process. take less than 5 minutes.

Well, it's not that simple, there are several what-ifs to keep it under 5 minutes:

- what if you don't have the original number
- what if they put you on hold for 20 minutes
- what if you are not that good with 20-something digit numbers and just can't input it right

In short, it's not at all painless, it is disgraceful, and shouldn't be forced on users in the first place.

[Post Monkeh]

when i was reinstalling xp, it threw up a code onto the screen for me. i phoned the helpline and put that code in (it was still on the screen while i was on the phone)

the helpline then quoted me back a code (giving me the option to hear it again if required) which i put into my installation, and everything proceeded easily. i've reinstalled xp to 3 different machines in the past couple of years due to various hardware upgrades - all 3 made me phone the validation helpine, and i found no problems.

i don't agree with a lot of the microsoft bashing that goes on. yes, in many ways linux is better, but microsoft are entitled to do whatever they think is right to ensure their software isn't copied (or at least to make it as difficult as possible). it's certainly a hassle, but fact is, most people will never be reinstalling their copy of windows, and those that have the inclination or need to reinstall, would either get someone competent enough to do it for them, or would have the necessary skills themselves. i never even had to speak to anyone when i had to validate my xp installs.

[.nedberg]

In short, it's not at all painless, it is disgraceful, and shouldn't be forced on users in the first place.

Do you also think it is wrong when a shop place alarms on their merchandise?

MS is entitled to do this as much as they want to. It it to prevent stealing!

[mikewhatever]

...
i don't agree with a lot of the microsoft bashing that goes on. yes, in many ways linux is better, but microsoft are entitled to do whatever they think is right to ensure their software isn't copied (or at least to make it as difficult as possible).

Whatever they think, anything they want, what's wrong with you!? Would you also pay them to search through your house and make sure there are no illegal files or cds? Be a self conscious customer, for God's sake.:)
Obviously, your words should not be taken literally, but thinking about what you write is still a good idea.



Do you also think it is wrong when a shop place alarms on their merchandise?

It depends. If the alarms go off with every gust of wind, then yeas.


MS is entitled to do this as much as they want to. It it to prevent stealing!

Ha ha ha! Are you serious? Well, did it? Does it?

[.nedberg]

Ha ha ha! Are you serious? Well, did it? Does it?

In fact, yes, it does! Not everyone wants to be a criminal just because they can!

I have a lot of students at the school where I work that asks me if they can get a code for Windows (when they have bought used machines without any OEM code, or else lost the one they had). I tell them that I can't give it to them, but I also tell them where they can get one (legally). Most of them come back and tell me they did as I told them. I also hand out K/Ubuntu CD's of course, and some stick with that.

[arcdrag]

The game that they made was called Demigod i think and over 120,000 people had pirated it at the start!

Demigod was hit by massive piracy, but it didn't cause the company to go out of business. In fact, the amount of people that pirated demigod was absolutely dwarfed by the amount of people that downloaded pirated copies of spore, which had one of the most strict DRM's of any game ever made.

Also, to add to the original thread, even non-programmers can contribute to development in other ways than donating. Fill out your bug reports. Log into brainstorm when you think of a better way things can be done. Download RC's for software before the actual release so you can report any issues it has on your specific hardware setup. Donations are great, but if you really want to contribute, don't feel like you absolutely have to know anything about programming.

[Post Monkeh]

Whatever they think, anything they want, what's wrong with you!? Would you also pay them to search through your house and make sure there are no illegal files or cds? Be a self conscious customer, for God's sake.:)
Obviously, your words should not be taken literally, but thinking about what you write is still a good idea.




what you have just said has absolutely nothing to do with microsoft using their validation procedures.
perhaps it has been more difficult for some pople, but i for one have never had a problem installing a genuine copy of windows xp on any machine, and i've done it on several.
any extra snooping by microsoft is a totally different issue - but like it or not they're well within their rights to make it as difficult as possible to copy their software.

[Post Monkeh]

It depends. If the alarms go off with every gust of wind, then yeas.



maybe i'm just lucky, but i've used windows for years and i've never experienced any problems with their copy protection or validation software.
i've had plenty of other windows problems, but all my genuine copies of windows have worked just the way genuine ones should.

[mikewhatever]

In fact, yes, it does! Not everyone wants to be a criminal just because they can!

I have a lot of students at the school where I work that asks me if they can get a code for Windows (when they have bought used machines without any OEM code, or else lost the one they had). I tell them that I can't give it to them, but I also tell them where they can get one (legally). Most of them come back and tell me they did as I told them. I also hand out K/Ubuntu CD's of course, and some stick with that.

Is this supposed to be a proof that activation hassles are effective against piracy?:P Get real, will you.
I think it ridiculously humiliating to have to activate or call for a key to activate a legitimate Windows copy, punch down the 20 something keys and all that nonsense. Others are obviously entitled to their opinions.

[Post Monkeh]

i think it's humiliating that i have to punch in my pin code when i go into work to unset the alarm. i have a key to the door, it's out of order that they think i need to prove i have a genuine right to be there!!!!!!!!

[t0p]

In fact, yes, it does! Not everyone wants to be a criminal just because they can!


I think you misunderstood Mikewhatever's point. You said that the stuff Microsoft does with codes etc is to prevent stealing. Mike said: "Does it prevent stealing?"

I don't see how you can think it prevents stealing, as there is an awful lot of pirating MS software going on. If MS's activation code prevents stealing, how come there's XP and Vista pirating going on?

[t0p]

i think it's humiliating that i have to punch in my pin code when i go into work to unset the alarm. i have a key to the door, it's out of order that they think i need to prove i have a genuine right to be there!!!!!!!!

What's that got to do with the price of fish? Think before you type, else folk will think you a fool.

[.nedberg]

I think you misunderstood Mikewhatever's point. You said that the stuff Microsoft does with codes etc is to prevent stealing. Mike said: "Does it prevent stealing?"

I don't see how you can think it prevents stealing, as there is an awful lot of pirating MS software going on. If MS's activation code prevents stealing, how come there's XP and Vista pirating going on?

Preventing, not stopping! There is a difference, read up on it!

We all know it is easy to bypass this protection, but I am sure we all also know it is wrong! If there was nothing to bypass, then we would not get the feeling of doing something wrong.

It feels easier to enter a house if the door is open, compared to when you have to break the door down first.

However, I am not going to spend more time arguing with people who find it 'ridiculously humiliating' to punch in a code. Or people who don't get irony (Post Monkeh's post, I laughed!).

I would also like to state that this is turning into an ethic discussion, not what the OP wanted.

[t0p]

Preventing, not stopping! There is a difference, read up on it!


From Definitions of 'prevent' on the web (http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&safe=off&defl=en&q=define:prevent&ei=wZljSvKGEZiQjAeNtJn6Dw&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title):

# keep from happening or arising; make impossible; "My sense of tact forbids an honest answer"; "Your role in the projects precludes your ...
# stop (someone or something) from doing something or being in a certain state; "We must prevent the cancer from spreading"; "His snoring kept me from falling asleep"; "Keep the child from eating the marbles"

Sure looks like a synonym of 'stop' to me...



However, I am not going to spend more time arguing with people who find it 'ridiculously humiliating' to punch in a code. Or people who don't get irony (Post Monkeh's post, I laughed!).

Looks like you are the one in need of a dictionary. Post Monkeh's post wasn't irony. And maybe you don't mind having to prove you're not a thief when you want to use something you paid good money for, but some of us have more self respect.



I would also like to state that this is turning into an ethic discussion, not what the OP wanted.

I'd guess that at least 20% of the posts in the cafe are off topic. Including your posts in this thread. Don't get your panties in a bundle just cos your previous comments were laughed at.

:p

[lisati]

i think it's humiliating that i have to punch in my pin code when i go into work to unset the alarm. i have a key to the door, it's out of order that they think i need to prove i have a genuine right to be there!!!!!!!!

Not necessarily....
For a few years in the 1980s I worked for a company that insisted that employees used swipe cards to get in. This wasn't just to monitor our travels or because of the ethos at the time that meant that not everyone got to visit the computer room - they were responsible for a lot of confidential data that needed to be protected.

As for "free" software, there are options. Many of us here at the forums come for more than the chit-chat - it's a great opportunity to be able to exchange ideas relating to using our favourite Linux distro. Sometimes we're even able to help people.

[Post Monkeh]

What's that got to do with the price of fish? Think before you type, else folk will think you a fool.

err, mike thinks it humiliating that he has to prove to microsoft that he has a genuine copy of windows every time he installs it. i find it humiliating that i have to prove i'm genuinely who i say i am when i enter my place of work and no one else is there.

both opinions are equally as absurd imho.

[jms1989]

To all the people who think pinching in code to prove your identiy or right to use your products, get a grip. The whole purpose of the procedure to at least slow down theft (in the case of a company's product) and prove you are who you say you are when entering sensitive areas (in the workforce).

What about that password Ubuntu ask you for whn you want to run a command as root? I don't see you complaining about that, so zip it. Enough complaining and get back on topic.

My word, I've never seen so many babies in one room.[-X

[Mark76]

You've obviously never been to a neonatal ward then :D

[t0p]

To all the people who think pinching in code to prove your identiy or right to use your products, get a grip. The whole purpose of the procedure to at least slow down theft (in the case of a company's product) and prove you are who you say you are when entering sensitive areas (in the workforce).

What about that password Ubuntu ask you for whn you want to run a command as root? I don't see you complaining about that, so zip it.

My computer asks me for passwords because I want it to. If I didn't want it to ask for passwords to run admin commands, I'd just log in as root. And anyway, the computer is my computer, the OS is my OS, so I have no problem with it asking for passwords. But if I install Winders on my machine, it's Microsoft asking for the activation code. And it's my Winders, not Microsoft's! (Okay, I know it's not actually my copy of Winders... it belongs to Microsoft, they just license it to me... but if I brought that up, it would render my whole argument null and void. So I'm not going to bring it up, right?)



Enough complaining and get back on topic.


Since so much of this thread has been taken up discussing this point, this actually is on-topic. Nurrr!



My word, I've never seen so many babies in one room.[-X

Haven't been round the internet much, have you? Place is full of babies, many of them even more infantile than me...

[ZarathustraDK]

If torrent repositories (i.e. apt using torrent) ever becomes a reality then the issue of hosting repositories will have been largely solved.

+1

The thought of having the software distributed from the users themselves also seem to chime well with the whole idea of Open Source if I may say so.

[rannable]

i totally agree with this, and my awesome ubuntu bag and t shirt are the envy of commuters on my train ride to work :D

[lisati]

i totally agree with this, and my awesome ubuntu bag and t shirt are the envy of commuters on my train ride to work :D

And the Ubuntu lanyard I hang my mp3 player on has prompted comments.