PDA

View Full Version : What's wrong with the Arch Forum?



abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 08:33 PM
I'm curious as to why are there so many posters on this forum that feel the need to declare that they don't use Ubuntu and they use Arch? What exactly is the motive behind this? How does a Ubuntu user/forum participant benefit from this declaration?

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 08:39 PM
a) We like the community here, AND we like Arch. Promotin' our brand!

b) Ubuntu users benefit because they don't end up taking advice from someone who doesn't necessarily know Ubuntu as well.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 08:41 PM
I'm curious as to why are there so many posters on this forum that feel the need to declare that they don't use Ubuntu and they use Arch? What exactly is the motive behind this? How does a Ubuntu user/forum participant benefit from this declaration?

I imagine these people as small children who think it's cool, or something. I could be wrong though. I hope adults don't act like this.

Greg
April 4th, 2009, 08:43 PM
It also has to do with the fact that since the end of the Other OS section, a large portion of the userbase that frequented there has migrated to the Cafe.

Ubuntu, and by assosciation UF, have come to represent Linux to the outside world, and as such UF is a global Linux community.

Skripka
April 4th, 2009, 08:46 PM
Ubuntu, and by assosciation UF, have come to represent Linux to the outside world, and as such UF is a global Linux community.

For now. With the forum downsizing happening, and UF leaning more toward support only-I think those days are numbered.

Sand & Mercury
April 4th, 2009, 08:48 PM
The Arch forums aren't anywhere close to being as active as the Ubuntu ones.

I tried Arch and was happy for a while, but eventually went back to Ubuntu.

Kareeser
April 4th, 2009, 08:48 PM
I was under the impression that Arch users had access to the Ubuntu repositories, making it quite similar to Ubuntu, just more streamlined and personalized to each individual user.

*shrugs* I don't mind 'em... until they say they're superior.

Skripka
April 4th, 2009, 08:48 PM
I imagine these people people as small children who think it's cool, or something. I could be wrong though. I hope adults don't act like this.

At least you are open to being wrong.


Many users of other OSes come here-as this board has the most raffic and largest community of any forum on the internet. We (other OS users) lend a hand, as we want.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 08:50 PM
It also has to do with the fact that since the end of the Other OS section, a large portion of the userbase that frequented there has migrated to the Cafe.

Ubuntu, and by assosciation UF, have come to represent Linux to the outside world, and as such UF is a global Linux community.

I think the op refers to certain members who make it a point to somehow squeeze into every thread the fact that they use Arch (you know who you are)

smartboyathome
April 4th, 2009, 08:52 PM
I was under the impression that Arch users had access to the Ubuntu repositories, making it quite similar to Ubuntu, just more streamlined and personalized to each individual user.

*shrugs* I don't mind 'em... until they say they're superior.

Nope, it doesn't use Debian package management, it uses a totally different package management system.


And I come here as well as to the Arch forum because:
A) I like it better here.
B) I can still help solve some problems here.

So should Ubuntu forums be JUST for Ubuntu, and anyone who doesn't use it should go away? If so, I am afraid I don't want to be here anymore, as the user base is getting very selfish.

BGFG
April 4th, 2009, 08:57 PM
I'm curious as to why are there so many posters on this forum that feel the need to declare that they don't use Ubuntu and they use Arch? What exactly is the motive behind this? How does a Ubuntu user/forum participant benefit from this declaration?

If it comes up in conversation and you use Arch, cool. You will however notice that many of the Arch users prowl some of the more technical sub-forums lending much needed technical help and guidance. As an Ubuntu user I appreciate that.

No matter what your distro, this is still the best GNU/Linux forum on the net and it will attract users from all over. Same kernel, same architecture(mostly) so we all come here.

Lux Perpetua
April 4th, 2009, 08:59 PM
I'm curious as to why are there so many posters on this forum that feel the need to declare that they don't use Ubuntu and they use Arch? What exactly is the motive behind this? How does a Ubuntu user/forum participant benefit from this declaration?I don't know, man. I don't even use Ubuntu. (j/k)

Seriously, though, that's only one of many types of unhelpful posts to be found on this and other forums. Another example: when someone says that they can't get some program or feature to work, a bunch of people invariably reply just to say that it works for them.

On the other hand, it was in fact the large presence of Arch users on this forum that put Arch on my radar in the first place. So maybe making a post just to say you don't use Ubuntu is unconstructive, but there's no reason to hide the fact that you use another distro.

Simian Man
April 4th, 2009, 08:59 PM
If only Ubuntu users visited these forums, the amount of knowledgeable folks to help you out would drop off substantially. Other distros tend not to have so many beginners in their user base, so I (and others) try to offer support to beginners here.

abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 09:02 PM
a) We like the community here, AND we like Arch. Promotin' our brand!
Soooo - us humble Ubuntu users should rush over to the Arch site and download the ISO?


b) Ubuntu users benefit because they don't end up taking advice from someone who doesn't necessarily know Ubuntu as well.

Soooo - By using Arch you get to know Ubuntu better...

This is either heavy-duty advice or lightweight and simple advice;)

I wonder which it is...

davec64
April 4th, 2009, 09:02 PM
It's a Ubuntu forum?!?!?!

Drat, I thought it was XP :)

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 09:03 PM
At least you are open to being wrong.


Many users of other OSes come here-as this board has the most raffic and largest community of any forum on the internet. We (other OS users) lend a hand, as we want.

No offense to Arch users in general [start humor] My best friend is a Arch User [end humor] It's the people who want to make sure that there's not one human in the universe that doesn't know they use Arch that bother me.

wolfen69
April 4th, 2009, 09:05 PM
I think the op refers to certain members who make it a point to somehow squeeze into every thread the fact that they use Arch (you know who you are)

i know what you mean. i don't mind people coming and sharing, but some of these arch users are becoming annoying. it seems like every thread they post in, they have to mention how great arch is, and why they use it. that's fine if they feel that way, but i don't need it shoved down my throat.

or perhaps i should go to the arch forums and constantly talk about ubuntu. nah, i have better things to do.

Greg
April 4th, 2009, 09:05 PM
For now. With the forum downsizing happening, and UF leaning more toward support only-I think those days are numbered.

I know. I wish it was otherwise, though, because Ubuntu is a springboard for many into the world of Linux. And many move on to other distros... it would be better if they don't get phased out of the community.

Skripka
April 4th, 2009, 09:06 PM
Soooo - By using Arch you get to know Ubuntu better...

This is either heavy-duty advice or lightweight and simple advice;)

I wonder which it is...

What he was saying is that on the whole, Arch users tend to be more thoroughly versed in Linux troubleshooting than the majority of Ubuntu users-simply due to the extra knowledge required and gained by running and fixing Arch.

SuperSonic4
April 4th, 2009, 09:06 PM
Soooo - us humble Ubuntu users should rush over to the Arch site and download the ISO?



Soooo - By using Arch you get to know Ubuntu better...

This is either heavy-duty advice or lightweight and simple advice;)

I wonder which it is...

From my own knowledge using arch has taught me a lot more about Linux in general and how it works. For example check out the fstab page on the arch wiki - that information can apply to ubuntu

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 09:06 PM
If only Ubuntu users visited these forums, the amount of knowledgeable folks to help you out would drop off substantially. Other distros tend not to have so many beginners in their user base, so I (and others) try to offer support to beginners here.

He didn't say he didn't want Arch users to visit here. Lets not twist his words.

wolfen69
April 4th, 2009, 09:10 PM
He didn't say he didn't want Arch users to visit here. Lets not twist his words.

he must be an arch user. ;)

Eisenwinter
April 4th, 2009, 09:10 PM
Soooo - By using Arch you get to know Ubuntu better...

No, you get to know Linux better in general.

abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 09:11 PM
If only Ubuntu users visited these forums, the amount of knowledgeable folks to help you out would drop off substantially. Other distros tend not to have so many beginners in their user base, so I (and others) try to offer support to beginners here.

They have a newbie section on the Arch forum that requires knowledgeable supporters. Is the inference that Ubuntu users are automatically beginners, so they need the ARCH Masters to help them out... This would be a little arrogant, methinks.

wolfen69
April 4th, 2009, 09:12 PM
For example check out the fstab page on the arch wiki - that information can apply to ubuntu

any wiki on fstab can be applied to ubuntu. ):P

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 09:14 PM
What he was saying is that on the whole, Arch users tend to be more thoroughly versed in Linux troubleshooting than the majority of Ubuntu users-simply due to the extra knowledge required and gained by running and fixing Arch.

This is the elitist attitude that is starting to annoy me personally. Arch != better Linux users.

abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 09:15 PM
It's a Ubuntu forum?!?!?!

Drat, I thought it was XP :)

Well after you graduate from simplistic Ubuntu to Arch (which you need to be more knowledgeable to use) then the pinnacle must be XP (where you need to be an outright genius to get it to work right!!! :p

abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 09:17 PM
No, you get to know Linux better in general.

I thought Arch was simple and lightweight? Where's the truth in advertising?

davec64
April 4th, 2009, 09:17 PM
Well after you graduate from simplistic Ubuntu to Arch (which you need to be more knowledgeable to use) then the pinnacle must be XP (where you need to be an outright genius to get it to work right!!! :p

:lolflag:

Skripka
April 4th, 2009, 09:18 PM
I thought Arch was simple and lightweight? Where's the truth in advertising?

It is. You have to make/configure it yourself.

tjwoosta
April 4th, 2009, 09:21 PM
I'm curious as to why are there so many posters on this forum that feel the need to declare that they don't use Ubuntu and they use Arch? What exactly is the motive behind this? How does a Ubuntu user/forum participant benefit from this declaration?

i can see if it comes up in a conversation maybe, but there is no need for one to run his mouth to ubuntu users about usng arch

i use arch myself, but i dont go around giving ubuntu users crap about it

infact i usually just give great advice to ubuntu users without ever even mentioning which distro i use

bear in mind that your average arch users usually do have a slightly deeper understanding of the inner workings in linux then your average ubuntu user

(obvioulsly there are exceptions to this statement, but in general)

this is not becasue arch users are smarter, its just because installing and running arch requires a deeper understanding of the inner workings of linux then using ubuntu

also ubuntu and arch are not as different as one might think

sure it has a different package management system, but the basics are all the same, just like any distro


if you ask me distro choice is about personal choice, what do you like, skew the others

Greg
April 4th, 2009, 09:21 PM
This is the elitist attitude that is starting to annoy me personal. Arch != better Linux users.

I wouldn't say that that's necessarily true. Arch does breed better understanding of Linux. So does Slackware. So does CRUX. So does Gentoo. So does an Ubuntu Minimal Install. Let's face it, Ubuntu is a graphical distribution. Command line distros that you need to tweak to start up consist of more knowledgable users per capita than the graphical install ones. It's not to say that there aren't knowledgable Ubuntu users, or clueless Arch users, but the ratio of knowledgable users of distros like Arch is greater than the ratio of knowledgable users of distros like Ubuntu.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 09:22 PM
Well I know that there are plenty of Ubuntu Users who are capable of using Arch, that just don't like it. This doesn't make them "stupider"

RiceMonster
April 4th, 2009, 09:25 PM
There's been so many threads about this. I still post here because I used to use Ubuntu, and I was using it when I joined, but I like it here so I stayed. So why is it a problem that I stick around here? How am I ruining your Ubuntu experience? I'm really starting to wonder why some people are so annoyed by this.


I thought Arch was simple and lightweight? Where's the truth in advertising?

Simple from a technical point of view, not from a usability point of view.


Well I know that there are plenty of Ubuntu Users who are capable of using Arch, that just don't like it. This doesn't make them "stupider"

I think people are trying to say that a) arch is targeted at more "advanced" users, and b) that they learned a lot more about Linux from using Arch. They're not saying Arch users are "smarter" or "better Linux users".

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 09:26 PM
I wouldn't say that that's necessarily true. Arch does breed better understanding of Linux. So does Slackware. So does CRUX. So does Gentoo. So does an Ubuntu Minimal Install. Let's face it, Ubuntu is a graphical distribution. Command line distros that you need to tweak to start up consist of more knowledgable users per capita than the graphical install ones. It's not to say that there aren't knowledgable Ubuntu users, or clueless Arch users, but the ratio of knowledgable users of distros like Arch is greater than the ratio of knowledgable users of distros like Ubuntu.

Yes, but because someone chooses to use Ubuntu doesn't mean they do because it's the only one they can get to work. I use Ubuntu because I like it not because I'm not "leet" enough to use Arch. I Don't like Arch that's why I don't use it.

Eisenwinter
April 4th, 2009, 09:27 PM
Haven't we been here before?

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 09:27 PM
Simple from a technical point of view, not from a usability point of view.

There's been so many threads about this. I still post here because I used to use Ubuntu, and I was using it when I joined, but I like it here so I stayed. So why is it a problem that I stick around here? How am I ruining your Ubuntu experience?

Why are you twisting the op's words? He didn't say he didn't want you here.

RiceMonster
April 4th, 2009, 09:32 PM
Why are you twisting the op's words? He didn't say he didn't want you here.

Well it seems to be implied. When I read "What's wrong with the Arch Forum?" I kind of got the impression that he was saying "go back to the Arch forum".

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 09:37 PM
Well it seems to be implied. When I read "What's wrong with the Arch Forum?" I kind of got the impression that he was saying "go back to the Arch forum".

He's talking about a specific kind of Arch User. If your not an elitist prick, that talks about how you use Arch, and how great you are, in every thread you participate in, then he's not referring to you.

abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 09:37 PM
Guys - I'm not trying to flame Arch. IMO, if you have to make/configure it yourself that sounds difficult not simple - and certainly not the pursuit for a lightweight. If you actually accomplish this feat, then it does say something about your Linux prowess. However, this doesn't justify elitism and arrogance. Because the truth is after you make/configure your system you end up with something that's not much different from Ubuntu. Now if making/configuring is your end game - cool! Personally, I wan't to use Linux to design web sites, edit graphics, write books, articles, edit digital video and audio, surf the Internet, etc, etc, You know - all the things computer users do after they're done making/configuring. If you want to claim that Arch does this better than Ubuntu, well that's a different story, which is highly debatable. However, just because you choose to make/configure, doen't give you the right to 'lord' over Linux users that don't choose to do that. In a nutshell, we appreciate your help and reject your arrogance.

Eisenwinter
April 4th, 2009, 09:41 PM
Arch follows the KISS principle.

Simple, in the Arch way, means "without unnecessary additions and modifications". It doesn't mean "very simple and easy to use".

As far as lightweight goes, well, seeing as you build your system from scratch, and only have what you want to have on it, you do end up with a (usually, it varies from user to user) very lightweight system.

Once you're done setting it up, too, Arch requires very little maintainence.

Which reminds me...

Name change
April 4th, 2009, 09:44 PM
As you can see I'm not really active on this here forum.
But this thread concerns me as I am a Arch user.
To be totally honest with you even I don't really know why I'm here.
(You're probably wondering why I'm here and so am I; song by Frank Zappa comes to mind).
I joined this forum because I was back then still using Kubuntu and being a active member of Kubuntu forums, but I "evaded" this forums for a long time.
But then there was an idea on Ubuntu Brainstorm that linked to thread on UF which had attachments and they can only be viewed by UF members so I joined.
And since then I'm lurking this forums once and awhile rarely leaving cozy area of Cafe, as I feel that this is the only place that I can actively participate.
As I don't use Ubuntu nor Gnome and I'm not really a expert on any kernel or similar topic.
I'm also here to see if Linsux hypothesis about UF being the breeding ground for "LY"
is correct.
To some part it is, but to some part it isn't. That's all that I can say for now :D.
Anyway I'll go back to KDE and Arch forums, where I "belong" :D

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 09:45 PM
Arch follows the KISS principle.

Simple, in the Arch way, means "without unnecessary additions and modifications". It doesn't mean "very simple and easy to use".

As far as lightweight goes, well, seeing as you build your system from scratch, and only have what you want to have on it, you do end up with a (usually, it varies from user to user) very lightweight system.

Once you're done setting it up, too, Arch requires very little maintainence.

Which reminds me...

I don't have a 15 year old computer, and I'm not on a pay for resources plan. Ubuntu runs great on my machine, and there is no maintenance at all, I just click the update button when it comes up, and that's it.

RiceMonster
April 4th, 2009, 09:46 PM
Guys - I'm not trying to flame Arch. IMO, if you have to make/configure it yourself that sounds difficult not simple - and certainly not the pursuit for a lightweight.

You're not understanding what they mean by simple and lightweight.

From the arch wiki:
"Arch Linux defines simplicity as a lightweight base structure without unnecessary additions, modifications, or complications, that allows an individual user to shape the system according to their own needs. In short; an elegant, minimalist approach."

No, this is not simple from a usability approach, but that's not what they mean.


If you actually accomplish this feat, then it does say something about your Linux prowess. However, this doesn't justify elitism and arrogance.

Who's being arrogant?


Because the truth is after you make/configure your system you end up with something that's not much different from Ubuntu.

My system is quite different than Ubuntu, actually. Not that there's anything wrong with Ubuntu.


Now if making/configuring is your end game - cool! Personally, I wan't to use Linux to design web sites, edit graphics, write books, articles, edit digital video and audio, surf the Internet, etc, etc, You know - all the things computer users do after they're done making/configuring. If you want to claim that Arch does this better than Ubuntu, well that's a different story, which is highly debatable. However, just because you choose to make/configure, doen't give you the right to 'lord' over Linux users that don't choose to do that. In a nutshell, we appreciate your help and reject your arrogance.

I don't think anyone's saying it's better, rather, that's what they like about it. I don't think Arch is better than Ubuntu, but I think it's better for me. Furthermore, just because I had to spend a few hours setting it up (which I did enjoy), doesn't mean I don't actually get to use my computer. That's why I'm on here all the time. Plus, I use it for homework, watching videos, IMing, listening to music, and so on and so fourth.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 09:49 PM
Who's being arrogant?





Do you have a couple days? Read the whole thread there's a couple in this thread already.

Eisenwinter
April 4th, 2009, 09:51 PM
I don't have a 15 year old computer, and I'm not on a pay for resources plan. Ubuntu runs great on my machine, and there is no maintenance at all, I just click the update button when it comes up, and that's it.
You don't have to have a 15 year old computer, that's a myth.

I can have Arch installed with way more eye candy, and heavy applications, than Ubuntu.

The difference being, that I choose to have those applications installed, I install them, myself - while Ubuntu installs default packages for you, without giving you a choice (with the exception of Ubuntu minimal).

billgoldberg
April 4th, 2009, 09:51 PM
I'm curious as to why are there so many posters on this forum that feel the need to declare that they don't use Ubuntu and they use Arch? What exactly is the motive behind this? How does a Ubuntu user/forum participant benefit from this declaration?

I never gotten past their registration form.

For some reason I couldn't answer the question

"What distribution is this forum for?"

correctly.

Gave up after trying a dozen times or so.

RiceMonster
April 4th, 2009, 09:53 PM
^^ lol XD


Do you have a couple days? Read the whole thread there's a couple in this thread already.

I haven't really noticed anyone being arrogant in this thread. I've read it all.

Vadi
April 4th, 2009, 09:54 PM
I find it annoying too. It's like spamvertisement, and I don't get the need for doing it. There's the 'Other OS talk' section, please stick it to there.

abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 09:54 PM
As you can see I'm not really active on this here forum.
But this thread concerns me as I am a Arch user.

Primož Papič - Please understand that this thread shouldn't concern you. It is not a criticism of those who choose Arch, or KDE,,, It is simply a reaction to some participants, who identify themselves as Arch users, who feel it necessary to be condescending to Ubuntu users. It's not the Arch usage, but the unnecessary condescension that is being addressed here. Please, don't feel you have to leave this forum simply because of this thread,

RiceMonster
April 4th, 2009, 09:55 PM
I find it annoying too. It's like spamvertisement, and I don't get the need for doing it. There's the 'Other OS talk' section, please stick it to there.

Other OS talk has been closed.

wolfen69
April 4th, 2009, 09:56 PM
I can have Arch installed with way more eye candy, and heavy applications, than Ubuntu.


name the eye candy and apps that are not available in ubuntu. last time i checked, anything can be compiled and installed in ubuntu. please, enlighten me.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 09:57 PM
You don't have to have a 15 year old computer, that's a myth.

I can have Arch installed with way more eye candy, and heavy applications, than Ubuntu.

The difference being, that I choose to have those applications installed, I install them, myself - while Ubuntu installs default packages for you, without giving you a choice (with the exception of Ubuntu minimal).

The only program Ubuntu comes with that I don't use is ekiga

sudo apt-get remove ekiga

Is a lot easier than manually configuring an Arch install. If Arch was so much better it would be worth it, but when it's all said, and done I end up with what I have now minus the tools that did the configuring for me. I have tons of hard drive space. I don't think the couple of mb of configuation scripts are going to make, or break me.

Greg
April 4th, 2009, 09:57 PM
name the eye candy and apps that are not available in ubuntu. last time i checked, anything can be compiled and installed in ubuntu. please, enlighten me.

I think he was implying enabled by default.

RiceMonster
April 4th, 2009, 09:58 PM
name the eye candy and apps that are not available in ubuntu. last time i checked, anything can be compiled and installed in ubuntu. please, enlighten me.

You're right, it's all the same stuff you would use in Ubuntu.


Is a lot easier than manually configuring an Arch install. If Arch was so much better it would be worth it, but when it's all said, and done I end up with what I have now minus the tools that did the configuring for me. I have tons of hard drive space. I don't think the couple of mb of configuation scripts are going to make, or break me.

Keep using Ubuntu then. I never reccomend Arch to people who wouldn't find it enjoyable or worthwhile going through the install/configure process.

abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 10:04 PM
You don't have to have a 15 year old computer, that's a myth.

I can have Arch installed with way more eye candy, and heavy applications, than Ubuntu.

The difference being, that I choose to have those applications installed, I install them, myself - while Ubuntu installs default packages for you, without giving you a choice (with the exception of Ubuntu minimal).

Can't you simply uninstall them? Actually, Ubuntu in its default config is pretty minimalist. I think this is why off-shoots like Linux Mint or Ubuntu Ultimate are so popular.

IMO, caring about 'eye-candy' is very shallow. I wouldn't use it as a measure of how 'hooked-up' a system was. I also don't see how Arch could be so 'different' from Ubuntu, when they both run the same Linux apps. How is running Gimp or OpenOffice on Arch different from ubuntu?

Vadi
April 4th, 2009, 10:05 PM
Other OS talk has been closed.

That's unfortunate. Arch forums didn't though.

Ubuntu Forums are a place for help, not "brand promotion" (not that converting linux users from distro A to distro B is awfully helpful for linux overall).

overdrank
April 4th, 2009, 10:06 PM
I believe this question could have been any OS as in Mint, Puppy or Windows. Many users of this forum do not use Ubuntu and if they participate in line with the COC then why shouldn't they. :)

Eisenwinter
April 4th, 2009, 10:08 PM
Can't you simply uninstall them?
It's far easier to build from scratch, then to be given a full product and tear it down piece by piece.

When I was still using Ubuntu, I didn't use 95% of the default applications it installed.

BGFG
April 4th, 2009, 10:08 PM
Well I know that there are plenty of Ubuntu Users who are capable of using Arch, that just don't like it. This doesn't make them "stupider"

Why are you getting so excited ? no one has mentioned stupid. Arch, Gentoo, Slackware etc. breeds better understanding of how GNU/linux works. This understanding is then passed on to less experienced users.

One can just as easily learn the inner workings of Linux through use of Ubuntu by simply researching. distros like arch and gentoo force you to learn the inner workings of the system.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 10:08 PM
I believe this question could have been any OS as in Mint, Puppy or Windows. Many users of this forum do not use Ubuntu and if they participate in line with the COC then why shouldn't they. :)

Mint users don't go around acting like gods gift to computing though.

Rokurosv
April 4th, 2009, 10:10 PM
I post here because I like the Ubuntu community, I feel Ubuntu is a little bloated by default and since I like the Arch way, I chose what I feel would be better for me, and that is Arch. I still Ubuntu though, for my laptop, I'm getting an NC-10 soon and I'll probably slap Ubuntu on it.

I think people post here because the forum is active, people can get into nice discussions and more experienced users can give better support even if they're not using Ubuntu. I only post in the Arch forums when I feel a problem is beyond me and I need assistance.

Greg
April 4th, 2009, 10:11 PM
Can't you simply uninstall them? Actually, Ubuntu in its default config is pretty minimalist. I think this is why off-shoots like Linux Mint or Ubuntu Ultimate are so popular.

IMO, caring about 'eye-candy' is very shallow. I wouldn't use it as a measure of how 'hooked-up' a system was. I also don't see how Arch could be so 'different' from Ubuntu, when they both run the same Linux apps. How is running Gimp or OpenOffice on Arch different from ubuntu?

Ubuntu comes with a lot of things by default, including large applications like OpenOffice, GIMP, and GNOME. There's also all the things installed in the background, like pulse audio. You also need to track down exactly what it is to uninstall.

I'm not here to convert you, but Arch does come a lot lighter by default. There are Arch users who never install a GUI, they browse the internet with elinks, use IRC with irssi, mc for file browsing, rtorrents for downloads, etc.

UF is a great place to hang around as a Linux user, and often general threads ask about How many do X in Ubuntu. Many people who use a Linux variant other than Ubuntu will specify that they do this- not in Ubuntu.

wolfen69
April 4th, 2009, 10:13 PM
but when it's all said, and done I end up with what I have now minus the tools that did the configuring for me.

i agree. i would wind up with the same apps and configuration in the end. so to me, it's not worth the time.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 10:14 PM
Soooo - us humble Ubuntu users should rush over to the Arch site and download the ISO?

Not if you don't want to. If you feel like giving it a go, sure, it's a great distro. But if you're totally happy with Ubuntu, stick with it.


Soooo - By using Arch you get to know Ubuntu better...

Naw. But while by and large, Linux = Linux, there are some things that differ so it's possible that I'd try to do something like help out with a non-functioning MPD and screw up your .conf file because the two systems handle things differently.

Greg
April 4th, 2009, 10:16 PM
i agree. i would wind up with the same apps and configuration in the end. so to me, it's not worth the time.

And it is for some. Hence the reason why you use Ubuntu, and I use Arch :)

A distro is someone else's ideal system that you then add to. I'd rather more of a blank canvas. Some would prefer less, and go with Slackware, or Gentoo, or LFS. Others want more drawn in already, and go with SuSe or Ubuntu or Fedora. And I'm sure that there are a few crazy people out there who want a totally blank canvas and program their own OS from scratch.

wolfen69
April 4th, 2009, 10:16 PM
It's far easier to build from scratch, then to be given a full product and tear it down piece by piece.


you make it sound like 5 hour process. i can uninstall all unneeded apps in 1 minute. yeah, that's real tough to do. :rolleyes:

Simian Man
April 4th, 2009, 10:17 PM
There really needs to be a general Linux forum that is as large and active as the forum here. 95% of the info here is distribution agnostic.

All of this infighting among distros reminds me of the scene in Monty Python's "Life of Brian" where all of the anti-roman groups like "The Judean People's Front" and the "People's Front of Judea" spent all of their arguing with each other rather than working against the Romans.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 10:19 PM
Ubuntu comes with a lot of things by default, including large applications like OpenOffice, GIMP, and GNOME. There's also all the things installed in the background, like pulse audio. You also need to track down exactly what it is to uninstall.

I'm not here to convert you, but Arch does come a lot lighter by default. There are Arch users who never install a GUI, they browse the internet with elinks, use IRC with irssi, mc for file browsing, rtorrents for downloads, etc.

UF is a great place to hang around as a Linux user, and often general threads ask about How many do X in Ubuntu. Many people who use a Linux variant other than Ubuntu will specify that they do this- not in Ubuntu.

To me there are two big reasons to use Arch, and neither of them involve how light it is (in a day of 2-4GB of RAM and quad-core HD's, "light" is just numbers on your conky config): better choice of DE/WM and the AUR.

If you love GNOME and don't mind the kitchen-sink approach, stick with Ubuntu. It's, in my mind, THE distro for GNOME. I keep an old lappy on hand that's always running the latest alpha or beta of Ubuntu just to play with it. But I use either Openbox or Compiz standalone, and I don't want evolution/GNOME/OpenOffice/etc installed for me.

Secondly, AUR is seriously the best thing ever ever ever period ever. I haven't done a sudo make install since I installed Arch. Not once. It's so hilariously convenient to locate whatever you want on the AUR and being able to install it just like from the official repos.

But really, it's a matter of taste.

Simian Man
April 4th, 2009, 10:20 PM
Others want more drawn in already, and go with SuSe or Ubuntu or Fedora.

With these distros you can also start with nothing and install just what you need. For Fedora and Suse, the DVD install gives you the option to customize packages. This is the only way, in my opinion, to install Linux. It can be done with Ubuntu too, but you need to use the mini.iso image.


you make it sound like 5 hour process. i can uninstall all unneeded apps in 1 minute. yeah, that's real tough to do. :rolleyes:

But obviously it is different depending on how much stuff you want to remove. Ever try removing PulseAudio or Gnome from Ubuntu? In my experience, no distros are really set up to allow you to easily remove stuff like this. It's always easier to just start without it.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 10:21 PM
you make it sound like 5 hour process. i can uninstall all unneeded apps in 1 minute. yeah, that's real tough to do. :rolleyes:

I'mma call BS on that. How do you know what all is installed that you don't want? Do you do the equivalent of 'pacman -Q' (that is, whatever apt command lists off every package in the system) and then write down all the packages you don't want any more?

Yeah sure you can probably KO OpenOffice and GIMP pretty quickly, but that's really a teeny fraction of things.

abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 10:22 PM
It's far easier to build from scratch, then to be given a full product and tear it down piece by piece.

When I was still using Ubuntu, I didn't use 95% of the default applications it installed.

I haven't graduated past apt-get remove, so I don't have the tools to evaluate if this is easier or not. However, instinctively this doesn't seem logical. Anyway, I've never used a single game that's installed, so I don't access that menu. It doesn't bother me that it's there. How is this affecting my system? Ubuntu runs great on all my computers, even with unnecessary stuff installed. I don't like network-manager, so I uninstall it.

Unlike Arch, the mandate of Ubuntu is to spread Linux usage to the 'masses' and they are preparing their distributions accordingly. Computers with Windows or OS-X would sell without eye-candy and built-in applications. Ubuntu is absolutely correct to do the same.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 10:23 PM
you make it sound like 5 hour process. i can uninstall all unneeded apps in 1 minute. yeah, that's real tough to do. :rolleyes:

Better yet you make a little script, and save it to a cd then it takes 1/2 a second.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 10:25 PM
I haven't graduated past apt-get remove, so I don't have the tools to evaluate if this is easier or not. However, instinctively this doesn't seem logical. Anyway, I've never used a single game that's installed, so I don't access that menu. It doesn't bother me that it's there. How is this affecting my system? Ubuntu runs great on all my computers, even with unnecessary stuff installed. I don't like network-manager, so I uninstall it.

It's less about what system is used to do installing and more about knowing what's all in there. When I install Ubuntu I don't have a flippin' clue what all's there. That's why uninstalling unwanted stuff is harder.


Unlike Arch, the mandate of Ubuntu is to spread Linux usage to the 'masses' and they are preparing their distributions accordingly. Computers with Windows or OS-X would sell without eye-candy and built-in applications. Ubuntu is absolutely correct to do the same.

Um... yeah. I'm not sure what the point of this statement was. Yeah, Ubuntu has its purpose, so does Arch. I don't want Ubuntu taking cues from Arch or vice versa.

lykwydchykyn
April 4th, 2009, 10:25 PM
I don't have anything against Arch or Arch users coming here, but I do think it's interesting that of all the non-Ubuntu Linux users here, the Arch users seem most numerous (or at least the most vocal ;-)) -- which is a bit odd when you consider that it's not nearly as popular as Fedora, Mandriva, or openSuse.

I mean, honestly I think I'd only ever heard of Arch once or twice before I started frequenting the Ubuntu forums (and I frequented other Linux forums before this one). It's not bad, IMO, just odd.

Skripka
April 4th, 2009, 10:27 PM
you make it sound like 5 hour process. i can uninstall all unneeded apps in 1 minute. yeah, that's real tough to do. :rolleyes:

How many processes do you have running or asleep right now? How many of them do you actually use, versus defaults which are installed and run in the background by Ubuntu default?

Example: Why does *buntu install a bluetooth client when I don't even have a wireless card in my machine?

I know many people get annoyed about the whole Evolution mail client being unremoveable without b0rking Ubuntu.

As said, it is far easier to build something up, than take things apart piece meal having to figure out if you use a depend or not-and if you don't if removing it will kill your OS.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 10:29 PM
Oh that's another thing: can you remove Firefox from Ubuntu yet? I know a boatload of Arch users that hate Firefox, and last I checked FF is spidered into Ubuntu like IE is in Windows.

I remember how hilariously hard it was to install the beta Firefox in Ubuntu whereas in Arch it was just "pacman -Rd firefox" "yaourt -S firefox-beta".

.Maleficus.
April 4th, 2009, 10:30 PM
Mint users don't go around acting like gods gift to computing though.
Weren't you talking about arrogance not 2 pages back? I use Arch and I don't think I'm "gods gift to computing".

To answer OP's question: I come here because as of my posting, there are 48 registered users on Arch's forum. This is mid-day Saturday. I'm normally on the computer weekdays 5-7am. I've never seen more than 20 users on Arch's forum then. 20 users != good forum.

And why I use Arch: Like most of the others here, I don't use most of the apps that come with Ubuntu. Hell, I don't even use Gnome or KDE. Why would I download Ubuntu (4x bigger than the Arch FTP installer) so I can immediately uninstall everything?


If you don't like posts dealing with Arch, don't read them. I don't read the posts dealing with XP because I don't care about XP. If you rid the forums of Arch users (and Gentoo users, and FreeBSD users (yes, we even have BSD users), and Fedora users, and Slax users...) you'll find a good portion of helpful people gone. I'm not an expert at Linux, that's why I'm here.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 10:30 PM
I don't have anything against Arch or Arch users coming here, but I do think it's interesting that of all the non-Ubuntu Linux users here, the Arch users seem most numerous (or at least the most vocal ;-)) -- which is a bit odd when you consider that it's not nearly as popular as Fedora, Mandriva, or openSuse.

I mean, honestly I think I'd only ever heard of Arch once or twice before I started frequenting the Ubuntu forums (and I frequented other Linux forums before this one). It's not bad, IMO, just odd.

There are tons of Fedora, Mandriva, and openSUSE users here. They just don't go around bragging, and belittling people like the Arch users do, so you wouldn't know it.

wolfen69
April 4th, 2009, 10:30 PM
Anyway, I've never used a single game that's installed, so I don't access that menu. It doesn't bother me that it's there. How is this affecting my system?

it does not affect it. but some people would have you believe that.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 10:31 PM
There are tons of Fedora, Mandriva, and openSUSE users here. They just don't go around bragging, and belittling people like the Arch users do, so you wouldn't know it.

Um... what?

Quote me a single post where an Arch user belittled an Ubuntu user. I'll wait.

will1911a1
April 4th, 2009, 10:33 PM
I believe this question could have been any OS as in Mint, Puppy or Windows. Many users of this forum do not use Ubuntu and if they participate in line with the COC then why shouldn't they. :)

This.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 10:33 PM
Oh that's another thing: can you remove Firefox from Ubuntu yet? I know a boatload of Arch users that hate Firefox, and last I checked FF is spidered into Ubuntu like IE is in Windows.

I remember how hilariously hard it was to install the beta Firefox in Ubuntu whereas in Arch it was just "pacman -Rd firefox" "yaourt -S firefox-beta".

yeah


sudo apt-get remove firefox

It's always been that way as long as I've known.

will1911a1
April 4th, 2009, 10:33 PM
There are tons of Fedora, Mandriva, and openSUSE users here. They just don't go around bragging, and belittling people like the Arch users do, so you wouldn't know it.

Links please.

abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 10:35 PM
Ubuntu comes with a lot of things by default, including large applications like OpenOffice, GIMP, and GNOME. There's also all the things installed in the background, like pulse audio. You also need to track down exactly what it is to uninstall.
What if you needed these applications? I use them all. If I built Arch - then ended up having to make(?) all these apps, after several hours/days(?) wouldn't I end up with essentially, Ubuntu?


There are Arch users who never install a GUI, they browse the internet with elinks, use IRC with irssi, mc for file browsing, rtorrents for downloads, etc.
Hah. this reminds me of the bulletin board days, yeah, Compuserve


UF is a great place to hang around as a Linux user, and often general threads ask about How many do X in Ubuntu. Many people who use a Linux variant other than Ubuntu will specify that they do this- not in Ubuntu. I concur.

.Maleficus.
April 4th, 2009, 10:35 PM
There are tons of Fedora, Mandriva, and openSUSE users here. They just don't go around bragging, and belittling people like the Arch users do, so you wouldn't know it.
I really hope you're trolling this thread, because I've never seen the kind of stuff you're saying happens. I've never seen an Ubuntu user get belittled by an Arch user and the only time I see Arch users talk about Arch is either 1) in desktop threads 2) in actual support threads (where knowing the OS is relavent) and 3) when someone asks for a distro recommendation.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 10:35 PM
Um... what?

Quote me a single post where an Arch user belittled an Ubuntu user. I'll wait.

I see it all the time I'm not going to search every thread till I find one. It's not like I can do a google search for it. I have a hard time finding important threads when I need to.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 10:36 PM
yeah


sudo apt-get remove firefox

It's always been that way as long as I've known.

On Gutsy and Hardy (if memory serves) it was impossible to uninstall Firefox because it was integrated into the system, as well as a number of other applications.

That's why installing the Firefox 3 beta used to require a CRAZY number of steps (take a look at this (http://www.ubuntugeek.com/howto-install-firefox-3-beta-2-in-ubuntu-710-gutsy-gibbon.html)).

will1911a1
April 4th, 2009, 10:37 PM
I see it all the time I'm not going to search every thread till I find one. It's not like I can do a google search for it. I have a hard time finding important threads when I need to.

So basically you don't have any examples and are trying to agitate people. Is that more or less correct? Don't take this the wrong way but a good many of your posts in this thread are rather inflammatory.

Greg
April 4th, 2009, 10:39 PM
What if you needed these applications? I use them all. If I built Arch - then ended up having to make(?) all these apps, after several hours/days(?) wouldn't I end up with essentially, Ubuntu?


Hah. this reminds me of the bulletin board days, yeah, Compuserve

I concur.

Well, I don't think that it would take too many hours, but if you use all those apps, then yes. That's the thing, though- not everyone does. Not to mention building from scratch isn't the only benefit of Arch, but that's a whole other story.

I think that this thread has veered from the original topic, a bit.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 10:40 PM
In a trhread earlier today. I saw some call sombody a Gnome fanboy, and said the reason he didn't like KDE is because he never used it on Arch. I don't remember what thread it was in, but that's just today I see it all the time.

.Maleficus.
April 4th, 2009, 10:40 PM
What if you needed these applications? I use them all. If I built Arch - then ended up having to make(?) all these apps, after several hours/days(?) wouldn't I end up with essentially, Ubuntu?


Hah. this reminds me of the bulletin board days, yeah, Compuserve

I concur.
1. Well, no, you wouldn't get Ubuntu. You'd get Arch, with Gnome, OpenOffice and GIMP. It doesn't have bluetooth, it doesn't have games, it doesn't have cups... It isn't Ubuntu.

2. Does it matter if someone wants to run without X?

3. You concur? So you do like having Arch users here? I don't get it.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 10:42 PM
So basically you don't have any examples and are trying to agitate people. Is that more or less correct? Don't take this the wrong way but a good many of your posts in this thread are rather inflammatory.

They were not inflammatory if your not one of the people that act like this then it's not about you, and you have no reason to be offended.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 10:43 PM
In a trhread earlier today. I saw some call sombody a Gnome fanboy, and said the reason he didn't like KDE is because he never used it on Arch. I don't remember what thread it was in, but that's just today I see it all the time.

It's pretty well confirmed that Kubuntu is a lackluster usage of KDE desktop, and c'mon. KDE/GNOME is like the biggest argument in Linux period, there's a giant thread of people bitching at each other in the Recurring Discussions section.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 10:44 PM
They were not inflammatory if your not one of the people that act like this then it's not about you, and you have no reason to be offended.

I'm an Arch user. You called Arch users braggarts who flame and belittle. Which is pretty ironic because you're flaming and belittling Arch users.

Skripka
April 4th, 2009, 10:44 PM
In a trhread earlier today. I saw some call sombody a Gnome fanboy, and said the reason he didn't like KDE is because he never used it on Arch. I don't remember what thread it was in, but that's just today I see it all the time.

No I said "Gnome fanboys", as a thread about KDE4 was devolving into stereotypical "KDE sucks" bashing.

I did not tell the OP here that he didn't like KDE because he never used it on Arch-I told him he didn't like it because he used it on *buntu--which has a known reputation as one of the worst KDE implementations around.


What were you saying about twisting people's words?

WatchingThePain
April 4th, 2009, 10:47 PM
Nope, it doesn't use Debian package management, it uses a totally different package management system.


And I come here as well as to the Arch forum because:
A) I like it better here.
B) I can still help solve some problems here.

So should Ubuntu forums be JUST for Ubuntu, and anyone who doesn't use it should go away? If so, I am afraid I don't want to be here anymore, as the user base is getting very selfish.

Well said.

will1911a1
April 4th, 2009, 10:47 PM
They were not inflammatory if your not one of the people that act like this then it's not about you, and you have no reason to be offended.


Well I know that there are plenty of Ubuntu Users who are capable of using Arch, that just don't like it. This doesn't make them "stupider"


There are tons of Fedora, Mandriva, and openSUSE users here. They just don't go around bragging, and belittling people like the Arch users do, so you wouldn't know it.

I have more if you want. Making sweeping generalizations about a user base and then saying we shouldn't be offended if we're not people that act like that doesn't cut it.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 10:49 PM
No I said "Gnome fanboys", as a thread about KDE4 was devolving into stereotypical "KDE sucks" bashing.

I did not tell the OP here that he didn't like KDE because he never used it on Arch-I told him he didn't like it because he used it on *buntu--which has a known reputation as one of the worst KDE implementations around.


What were you saying about twisting people's words?

Well I got Arch out of it some how. I don't remember which thread it is or what page it was, but I didn't make it up. You said something about Arch, or I've lost my mind.

abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 10:49 PM
Um... what?

Quote me a single post where an Arch user belittled an Ubuntu user. I'll wait.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1115960

I've seen many - some implicit - some overt, even in this thread. Here's the one four hours ago that inspired me to start this thread (#6). In this thread the OP was joyously expressing his/her one year anniversary as a Ubuntu user and this obnoxious soul chooses to put a damper on it. I know he's a child, but still...

Even in this thread the first responder's inference that 'superior' support comes from Arch users, and relying on Ubuntu users would inevitably lead to 'inferior' support is belittling.

.Maleficus.
April 4th, 2009, 10:51 PM
I forgot one of the main reasons I'm here - I've been a member for going on 3 years now. Why would I leave simply because I use a different distro? I joined using Ubuntu and spent a good portion of that time testing distros. I went from Ubuntu to Gentoo, over to Fedora with a splash of Mandriva. I jumped back to Ubuntu and then moved to Arch. UF has always been helpful.

Skripka
April 4th, 2009, 10:51 PM
Well I got Arch out of it some how. I don't remember which thread it is or what page it was, but I didn't make it up. You said something about Arch, or I've lost my mind.

Here was the post:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=7013357&postcount=58

You'll note the only place Arch is mentioned is in my signature.

will1911a1
April 4th, 2009, 10:55 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1115960

I've seen many - some implicit - some overt, even in this thread. Here's the one four hours ago that inspired me to start this thread (#6). In this thread the OP was joyously expressing his/her one year anniversary as a Ubuntu user and this obnoxious soul chooses to put a damper on it. I know he's a child, but still...

I actually agree with you on this one.

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 10:55 PM
I have more if you want. Making sweeping generalizations about a user base and then saying we shouldn't be offended if we're not people that act like that doesn't cut it.

the "stupdider" post has nothing to do with Arch users it is about Ubuntu users not being stupid, the second is an observation that I've made about certain Arch users. I made it clear what users I'm referring to at least three times in this thread. If you didn't read the whole thread then sorry go ahead, and read it then come back. If you did read the whole thread then surely you can't expect me to keep repeating my self over and over again, you already know what users I'm talking about.

SuperSonic4
April 4th, 2009, 10:55 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1115960

I've seen many - some implicit - some overt, even in this thread. Here's the one four hours ago that inspired me to start this thread (#6). In this thread the OP was joyously expressing his/her one year anniversary as a Ubuntu user and this obnoxious soul chooses to put a damper on it. I know he's a child, but still...

Even in this thread the first responder's inference that 'superior' support comes from Arch users, and relying on Ubuntu users would inevitably lead to 'inferior' support is belittling.

Lord help us if posting personal experiences in the testimonial forum constitutes belittling.

A lot of forums are distro agnostic - multimedia and video and 64bit to name two. Pointing out amarok 1.4 is no longer officially supported in ubuntu but is in arch is belittling?

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 10:58 PM
I actually agree with you on this one.

It's all the time I see this stuff. like I said I'm not going to go searching. The post are there.

abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 10:58 PM
1. Well, no, you wouldn't get Ubuntu. You'd get Arch, with Gnome, OpenOffice and GIMP. It doesn't have bluetooth, it doesn't have games, it doesn't have cups... It isn't Ubuntu.

2. Does it matter if someone wants to run without X?

3. You concur? So you do like having Arch users here? I don't get it.

I'm not saying that I don't want Arch users here! I admit that the thread title was a little inflammatory. I just wanted to stimulate this debate. I was really curios about why SOME Arch users assumed a personna of superiority. I've seen some great responses. Some make sense - some don't. This is simply a debate not a suggested eviction notice. I've learned some very specific details about both Ubuntu and Arch that I was not aware of, and would have never thought of before. I'm still not convinced about the superiority of Arch users, however ;)

kellemes
April 4th, 2009, 10:59 PM
lord help us if posting personal experiences in the testimonial forum constitutes belittling.

A lot of forums are distro agnostic - multimedia and video and 64bit to name two. Pointing out amarok 1.4 is no longer officially supported in ubuntu but is in arch is belittling?

+1

will1911a1
April 4th, 2009, 10:59 PM
Lord help us if posting personal experiences in the testimonial forum constitutes belittling.

A lot of forums are distro agnostic - multimedia and video and 64bit to name two


I don't think it was necessarily belittling but it struck me somewhat analagous to having a friend tell you about how they like their Civic and you saying "yeah Civics are alright, but my Jetta is AWESOME."

The Conversation isn't about Jettas, your friend just wants to tell you how happy they are with their Civic.

Yeah I know, car analogy, I suck. :(

Ericyzfr1
April 4th, 2009, 11:00 PM
I find it annoying too. It's like spamvertisement, and I don't get the need for doing it. There's the 'Other OS talk' section, please stick it to there.

Annoying might not be the exact word, but the simplicity, the minimalstic the all "customize according to your needs" is definitely disturbing. How is having a few extra applications on Ubuntu that are unnecessary affecting the way you use your system. I don't get it!!! How is it bothering other users what Ubuntu provide? When I choose to install Ubuntu, do I care if Ekiga or Evolution are removable? Who cares, really?

It is fine with me that there is other options out there to build a system from scratch, but it does nothing for me, I do not have the time for that. I am grateful that Ubuntu already has most of what I need and I just have to install Banshee and few other apps.

will1911a1
April 4th, 2009, 11:00 PM
It's all the time I see this stuff. like I said I'm not going to go searching. The post are there.

Honestly I either just don't read as many posts as you or I'm missing it entirely. I really don't see much of that happening but I can see how it would become irritating.

markharding557
April 4th, 2009, 11:02 PM
i personally appreciate all the knowledgeable people who come on here because they enhance the forum.
i am also a debian user,should i leave too?
we should stop attacking people who use different distros.

.Maleficus.
April 4th, 2009, 11:04 PM
I'm not saying that I don't want Arch users here! I admit that the thread title was a little inflammatory. I just wanted to stimulate this debate. I was really curios about why SOME Arch users assumed a personna of superiority. I've seen some great responses. Some make sense - some don't. This is simply a debate not a suggested eviction notice. I've learned some very specific details about both Ubuntu and Arch that I was not aware of, and would have never thought of before. I'm still not convinced about the superiority of Arch users, however ;)
... Nobody is saying Arch users are superior. Please find a post that says that they are. You want elitist users, go to the Gentoo forums, or the Sun forums. After a visit there, you will see that Arch user != elitist.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:05 PM
Honestly I either just don't read as many posts as you or I'm missing it entirely. I really don't see much of that happening but I can see how it would become irritating.

I'll tell ya what's really irritating.

Users crying about how people have the temerity to mention Arch on the Ubuntu forums. I've seen probably a half dozen threads about this very topic since I registered back in '07, and there's probably been a lot more that I didn't see.

If someone saying "I got bored with Ubuntu and switched to Arch :p " is your definition of being condescending, you need to get out more. That's so hilariously benign I don't even notice it.

.Maleficus.
April 4th, 2009, 11:07 PM
Annoying might not be the exact word, but the simplicity, the minimalstic the all "customize according to your needs" is definitely disturbing. How is having a few extra applications on Ubuntu that are unnecessary affecting the way you use your system. I don't get it!!! How is it bothering other users what Ubuntu provide? When I choose to install Ubuntu, do I care if Ekiga or Evolution are removable? Who cares, really?

It is fine with me that there is other options out there to build a system from scratch, but it does nothing for me, I do not have the time for that. I am grateful that Ubuntu already has most of what I need and I just have to install Banshee and few other apps.
Me! I care! It's the exact same reason people don't like Vista. It comes with stuff that I don't need. Give me one good reason that I would install Ubuntu so I can then proceed to completely remove everything and install dwm, urxvt pcmanfm and all of the other not Gnome or KDE packages that I prefer?

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:07 PM
... Nobody is saying Arch users are superior. Please find a post that says that they are. You want elitist users, go to the Gentoo forums, or the Sun forums. After a visit there, you will see that Arch user != elitist.

Slack users, for a while, were REALLY rough. It was half the charm of the Slack forums, you had to basically earn your stripes there in a trial by fire when the users say "read the manual" for all of your newbie questions. :lolflag:

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:09 PM
Me! I care! It's the exact same reason people don't like Vista. It comes with stuff that I don't need. Give me one good reason that I would install Ubuntu so I can then proceed to completely remove everything and install dwm, urxvt pcmanfm and all of the other not Gnome or KDE packages that I prefer?

Yeah. I don't like GNOME, so trying to get rid of the entire DE so I can toss on OpenBox or Compiz alone plus a handful of the apps I use is a major PITA. I can get everything on Arch up and running in about an hour, 15 minutes of which is actual work, the rest is me playing Rock Band while it downloads stuff.

I don't dislike Ubuntu users. Hell look at my post history. I defend Windows a lot of the time. But I'm not gonna avoid bringing up Arch when the situation warrants it just because people on here get their panties in a wad.

Ericyzfr1
April 4th, 2009, 11:09 PM
How about a HD with more capacity? That should take care of it, no?

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 11:09 PM
Honestly I either just don't read as many posts as you or I'm missing it entirely. I really don't see much of that happening but I can see how it would become irritating.

On the first page of the forum there's a KDE rant thread. On the very first page some one starts talking about arch. then on the second page the same poster goes on to talk about how easy it is to install.

Rokurosv
April 4th, 2009, 11:11 PM
How about a HD with more capacity? That should take care of it, no?

For space but not for RAM.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:11 PM
On the first page of the forum there's a KDE rant thread. On the very first page some one starts talking about arch. then on the second page the same poster goes on to talk about how easy it is to install.

Oh noes. A guy mentioned Arch and said it's easy to install. How terribly mean of him. :rolleyes:

You're on here actually insulting Arch users. Show me any Arch users actually insulting Ubuntu. Hell the reason most of us are here is because Ubuntu introduced us to Linux.

Skripka
April 4th, 2009, 11:13 PM
How about a HD with more capacity? That should take care of it, no?

Why spend more money, when you can use less space?

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:13 PM
How about a HD with more capacity? That should take care of it, no?

I have a 120GB HD. It's not a capacity issue. It's more in principle. I want my computer to have what I want on it and nothing else. It's not an attitude I expect everyone to share, and Arch is totally a niche distro.

But don't go acting like the KISS principle is dumb, that's a surefire way to get an onslaught of Archers flaming you.



...flaming Archers. Heh. SGD made a funny.

Barrucadu
April 4th, 2009, 11:15 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1115960

I've seen many - some implicit - some overt, even in this thread. Here's the one four hours ago that inspired me to start this thread (#6). In this thread the OP was joyously expressing his/her one year anniversary as a Ubuntu user and this obnoxious soul chooses to put a damper on it. I know he's a child, but still...

I don't see how I was being obnoxious, I was just mentioning that I got bored of Ubuntu after a while. I even added a ":P".

will1911a1
April 4th, 2009, 11:15 PM
On the first page of the forum there's a KDE rant thread. On the very first page some one starts talking about arch. then on the second page the same poster goes on to talk about how easy it is to install.


The OP in that thread is the one that mentions Arch. This is the community cafe, he's allowed to talk about Arch here, whether it be in passing or directly.

abyssius
April 4th, 2009, 11:15 PM
Lord help us if posting personal experiences in the testimonial forum constitutes belittling.

A lot of forums are distro agnostic - multimedia and video and 64bit to name two. Pointing out amarok 1.4 is no longer officially supported in ubuntu but is in arch is belittling?

I'm sorry if you can't detect the belittlement in this example. It's like this, one person in the spirit of friendship says, "Hey, man I just read this book, and it was great.." And, the person he's reaching out to responds, "Oh, I read that a few months ago, it was boring...". This reply would be belittling because it is saying that the book that this guy was so enthusiastic about is actually boring - which casts a dispersion on his judgment.

The responder is expressing his personal experience. he could even be right. However, it could also be that he's a pompus a*** that wouldn't know a good book in the first place.

Since I've seen many implicit and overt inferences from Arch users expressing their 'superiority' or 'distaste for Ubuntu users, I started this thread to give them a chance to justify their attitude.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:18 PM
"I use Ubuntu."

"Really? I think Ubuntu's kinda bloated, I like Arch."

"OH MY GOD WHY ARE YOU ARCH USERS SUCH JERKS!?!?! I HATE YOU!!!"

Ericyzfr1
April 4th, 2009, 11:20 PM
I have just installed 9.04 and updated, I have only 1GB Ram and 206.4 MB are used. Evolution and Ekiga ( I just choose these examples as they were listed earlier) are not started, by removing them is it really going to make that much of a difference?

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 11:22 PM
The OP in that thread is the one that mentions Arch. This is the community cafe, he's allowed to talk about Arch here, whether it be in passing or directly.

But half the thread turned into why arch is better than Ubuntu read it, and you will see. If it were one thread it would be alright, but since early this year every time I come here I feel like I'm watching a Arch Linux infomercial. And condensing post can be found earlier in this thread. I don't remember the exact words, but it read like "Aren't you glad your getting advice from a super leet Arch user, rather than one of those stupid Ubuntu users". Like I said those aren't the words they used, but that's what it felt like.

namegame
April 4th, 2009, 11:22 PM
Since I've seen many implicit and overt inferences from Arch users expressing their 'superiority' or 'distaste for Ubuntu users, I started this thread to give them a chance to justify their attitude.

Again, you have not offered one example of proof. I invoke an internet meme here. "Pics or it didn't happen."

Not once have I seen someone claim that Arch is GOD and Ubuntu sucks...

Another analogy... "I really like this brown shirt." "Oh, it's ok, but I think the blue shirt is better."

Are we not allowed to have opinions?

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:22 PM
I have just installed 9.04 and updated, I have only 1GB Ram and 206.4 MB are used. Evolution and Ekiga ( I just choose these examples as they were listed earlier) are not started, by removing them is it really going to make that much of a difference?

Nah. To be honest the difference in feel on a powerful machine is pretty negligible (actually GNOME+Compiz on Arch was... less than pleasant).

But you're missing the point. I don't want Evolution and Ekiga, I don't want to use GNOME at all. Why should I install Ubuntu just to remove everything on it?

You could say I should do a minimal Ubuntu install, but I much prefer pacman over APT, and the AUR is phenomenal. Quite literally you cannot possibly tell me why I "should" use Ubuntu given that.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:23 PM
But half the thread turned into why arch is better than Ubuntu read it, and you will see. If it were one thread it would be alright, but since early this year every time I come here I feel like I'm watching a Arch Linux infomercial. And condensing post can be found earlier in this thread. I don't remember the exact words, but it read like "Aren't you glad your getting advice from a super leet Arch user, rather than one of those stupid Ubuntu users". Like I said those aren't the words they used, but that's what it felt like.

Then I think the problem is on your end, "swoll".

cdwillis
April 4th, 2009, 11:23 PM
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet:popcorn:

will1911a1
April 4th, 2009, 11:23 PM
But half the thread turned into why arch is better than Ubuntu read it, and you will see. If it were one thread it would be alright, but since early this year every time I come here I feel like I'm watching a Arch Linux infomercial. And condensing post can be found earlier in this thread. I don't remember the exact words, but it read like "Aren't you glad your getting advice from a super leet Arch user, rather than one of those stupid Ubuntu users". Like I said those aren't the words they used, but that's what it felt like.

Then don't read the thread. Sorry, but there's no rules here against talking about Arch.

will1911a1
April 4th, 2009, 11:24 PM
I'm surprised this thread hasn't been locked yet:popcorn:

I am too.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:26 PM
I am too.

Eh, it's fun while it lasts. :lolflag:

.Maleficus.
April 4th, 2009, 11:26 PM
I have just installed 9.04 and updated, I have only 1GB Ram and 206.4 MB are used. Evolution and Ekiga ( I just choose these examples as they were listed earlier) are not started, by removing them is it really going to make that much of a difference?
I don't care if it makes a difference or not, I don't want them there.


Has this thread really turned into Ubuntu users insulting Arch user's distro choice? The past few pages have been littered with posts talking about Ubuntu's superiorty over Arch and why Arch users should switch to Ubuntu... I use Arch because I choose to. I choose to install Arch and only the programs I want because I want to. Saying things like "by removing them is it really going to make that much of a difference" is like saying "Ubuntu has a full featured kernel with every driver on it. Is compiling your own kernel going to make that much of a difference?" Who cares if it does or not? Just please stop telling me how I should and shouldn't use my computer (and this isn't directed at you Ericyzfr, it's directed at the thread as a whole).

cdwillis
April 4th, 2009, 11:27 PM
Just wanted to add that I'm also an Arch user.



I use Ubuntu as well though.:guitar:

Rokurosv
April 4th, 2009, 11:28 PM
"I use Ubuntu."

"Really? I think Ubuntu's kinda bloated, I like Arch."

"OH MY GOD WHY ARE YOU ARCH USERS SUCH JERKS!?!?! I HATE YOU!!!"

LOL

One guy once made fun of me for using Arch and not a 'real geek' distro like Debian. Riiiiiiight...

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:29 PM
I don't care if it makes a difference or not, I don't want them there.


Has this thread really turned into Ubuntu users insulting Arch user's distro choice? The past few pages have been littered with posts talking about Ubuntu's superiorty over Arch and why Arch users should switch to Ubuntu... I use Arch because I choose to. I choose to install Arch and only the programs I want because I want to. Saying things like "by removing them is it really going to make that much of a difference" is like saying "Ubuntu has a full featured kernel with every driver on it. Is compiling your own kernel going to make that much of a difference?" Who cares if it does or not? Just please stop telling me how I should and shouldn't use my computer (and this isn't directed at you Ericyzfr, it's directed at the thread as a whole).

I'm tempted to start a thread called "Why do Ubuntu users persecute us Archers??"

:popcorn:

justsomedude
April 4th, 2009, 11:30 PM
But Arch is the best! It says so in our Wiki! (http://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Arch_is_the_best) :shock:

Pogeymanz
April 4th, 2009, 11:30 PM
I hate Arch users too.

They just sit there and brag about their stupid package manager that handles dependencies better than apt, and their stupid vanilla packages that tend to be lighter than Ubuntu's, and their stupid rolling release distro which allows them to have up-to-date packages and features, and their easy to understand and find config files.

Why in the world would they suggest something like THAT to Ubuntu users?!


I have not seen anything really nasty posted by any Arch user. Although, I could see how Barrucadu's comment could come across badly. But I'm sure he didn't mean anything bad by it.

And I'm a little offended that a couple of you guys would generalize about Arch users. Yeah, there are a lot of us, therefore there will be a lot of bad Arch users, but there will also be a lot of good Arch users. I guess all Ubuntu users are a little insecure when an Arch user comes around.

Ericyzfr1
April 4th, 2009, 11:31 PM
I have a 120GB HD. It's not a capacity issue. It's more in principle. I want my computer to have what I want on it and nothing else. It's not an attitude I expect everyone to share, and Arch is totally a niche distro.

But don't go acting like the KISS principle is dumb, that's a surefire way to get an onslaught of Archers flaming you.



...flaming Archers. Heh. SGD made a funny.

Let me ask you this, do you think that you achieved your objective, or that you are as close as you can be? How are you sure that you ONLY have what you need?

namegame
April 4th, 2009, 11:31 PM
i'm tempted to start a thread called "why do ubuntu users persecute us archers??"

:popcorn:

do it! :p

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 11:31 PM
What he was saying is that on the whole, Arch users tend to be more thoroughly versed in Linux troubleshooting than the majority of Ubuntu users-simply due to the extra knowledge required and gained by running and fixing Arch.


Then don't read the thread. Sorry, but there's no rules here against talking about Arch.

Taking a tread of topic by turning it into "why Arch is better than Ubuntu" is against the rules.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:32 PM
Let me ask you this, do you think that you achieved your objective, or that you are as close as you can be? How are you sure that you ONLY have what you need?

Because I was told every package that I installed from the beginning. I can't rattle 'em off the top of my head, but my computer doesn't have a single application that I didn't choose to put on there. It doesn't have extra drivers or unneeded libraries. I can 'pacman -Q' and look at the list and sometimes I do just to clean it out.

And outside of trying LFS or CRUX, I'm close as I can be, yep. But I frankly don't have the linux chops for those. :P

namegame
April 4th, 2009, 11:34 PM
Let me ask you this, do you think that you achieved your objective, or that you are as close as you can be? How are you sure that you ONLY have what you need?

Because we built it ourselves. By hand. Piece by Piece etc.

Another analogy...

Assume someone gives you the supplies to a house and you are the only one involved in the process. You could conceivably know exactly how many nails were used, exactly how many boards were used, etc.

Simply put, if I didn't put it there in Arch, it's not there...

hatten
April 4th, 2009, 11:34 PM
Just wanted to add that I'm also an Arch user.



I use Ubuntu as well though.:guitar:
+1
i would like to change the topic name to What's wrong with UF :P

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:34 PM
Taking a tread of topic by turning it into "why Arch is better than Ubuntu" is against the rules.

"I don't like KDE"

"Well Kubuntu really isn't great, you should try it on a different distro. Arch's is pretty decent."

"DEAR GOD WILL YOU ARCH GUYS SHUT THE HELL UP?!?!"

namegame
April 4th, 2009, 11:35 PM
Taking a tread of topic by turning it into "why Arch is better than Ubuntu" is against the rules.

Taking a tread off topic by turning it into "why Ubuntu is better than Arch" is against the rules as well...

swoll1980
April 4th, 2009, 11:35 PM
I hate Arch users too.

They just sit there and brag about their stupid package manager that handles dependencies better than apt, and their stupid vanilla packages that tend to be lighter than Ubuntu's, and their stupid rolling release distro which allows them to have up-to-date packages and features, and their easy to understand and find config files.

Why in the world would they suggest something like THAT to Ubuntu users?!


I have not seen anything really nasty posted by any Arch user. Although, I could see how Barrucadu's comment could come across badly. But I'm sure he didn't mean anything bad by it.

And I'm a little offended that a couple of you guys would generalize about Arch users. Yeah, there are a lot of us, therefore there will be a lot of bad Arch users, but there will also be a lot of good Arch users. I guess all Ubuntu users are a little insecure when an Arch user comes around.

Now this thread turns into an infomercial too.

RiceMonster
April 4th, 2009, 11:37 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1115960

I've seen many - some implicit - some overt, even in this thread. Here's the one four hours ago that inspired me to start this thread (#6). In this thread the OP was joyously expressing his/her one year anniversary as a Ubuntu user and this obnoxious soul chooses to put a damper on it. I know he's a child, but still...

Even in this thread the first responder's inference that 'superior' support comes from Arch users, and relying on Ubuntu users would inevitably lead to 'inferior' support is belittling.

Ok, I can see how that can appear condescending, but you didn't make yourself look any better by mocking him.


Annoying might not be the exact word, but the simplicity, the minimalstic the all "customize according to your needs" is definitely disturbing. How is having a few extra applications on Ubuntu that are unnecessary affecting the way you use your system. I don't get it!!! How is it bothering other users what Ubuntu provide? When I choose to install Ubuntu, do I care if Ekiga or Evolution are removable? Who cares, really?

It is fine with me that there is other options out there to build a system from scratch, but it does nothing for me, I do not have the time for that. I am grateful that Ubuntu already has most of what I need and I just have to install Banshee and few other apps.

...and that's why you should use Arch, because you don't care about those things. Personally it bugs me when I have tons of stuff I'll never use installed, and that's why I shouldn't use Ubuntu.

SomeGuyDude
April 4th, 2009, 11:37 PM
Now this thread turns into an infomercial too.

A thread bashes Arch users and now you're surprised people are defending Arch?

http://i42.tinypic.com/30subdl.jpg

Sef
April 4th, 2009, 11:38 PM
Locked. Numerous complaints about Arch Bashing. To state specific reasons, why you don't like something is fine, but to bash is not.