The Corporation.

[DevilsAdvocate]

I recently watched the documentary, "The Corporation." It was very disturbing and has themes that could easily be applied to many a thread in our community. In any case, for those who have seen it, what do you think?

For those who haven't, highly recommend it.

[Lord Illidan]

Where can we see it?

[Spacecaptain]

I did see it. Actually i was riveted to the TV for each of the 3 one-hour chapters of it.
It's good journalism work, with balls, and a less-frill aproach to the subject than Michael Moore uses to sport.
I think it's a great way to show some people that the capitalist system is all but cast in stone and in a point of equilibrium...
The problem i have with many documentaries, and publications in general, on this subject is tha they are aimed at people that are already conviced and basically not to concerned about the concepts and their demonstration, in scientific terms. All they want is the schtick, the "yuhuuu" of activism.
The Corporation makes an effort to not indulge itself to much into the catharsis of activism and puts more data on the table than you would expect.

My favourite piece of the docu? Externalities, and the company buying the property of the water that rains from the Bolivia skyes! Those parts just freeze your bone marrow to a block of scared-shitless goo!

[prizrak]

I seen it in class a while ago, I remember nothing though.

[mstlyevil]

I haven't seen it but you have to wonder how much of these documentaries are just anti-corporate FUD. I would like to see it so I could judge it for myself.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Well, for those who haven't seen it, it's available at Blockbuster (at least the online part).

I agree, I was riveted myself for the 3 hours or so. And yes, it was more 'educational' than simply playing on the emotions. My favorite part was learning the Corporations derived most of their power, their status as a person, from the 14th amendment...that was chilling too.

Mystlevil...I consider myself a Libertarian in politics...Jeffersonian anyways but certainly not anti-Capitalistic. But the abuses of the trans-national corporation are beyond anything rational and aimed at anything but freedom.

[mstlyevil]

Well, for those who haven't seen it, it's available at Blockbuster (at least the online part).

I agree, I was riveted myself for the 3 hours or so. And yes, it was more 'educational' than simply playing on the emotions. My favorite part was learning the Corporations derived most of their power, their status as a person, from the 14th amendment...that was chilling too.

Mystlevil...I consider myself a Libertarian in politics...Jeffersonian anyways but certainly not anti-Capitalistic. But the abuses of the trans-national corporation are beyond anything rational and aimed at anything but freedom.

I agree with you about the abuses of trans-corporations. I have realized that any system left unchecked whether it is capitalism or socialism will trample on the rights the individual. I have a mix of ideas that include Libertarian, Constitutionalism and Jeffersonian. Ultimately all these come together in my thinking about the rights of the individual being the foremost important factor in preserving freedom. Corporations are organizations and should not be treated even on the same plane as the individual. The rights of the individual is how I am able to support the notion of necessary regulation and limitations on Capitalism and the Corporations. Otherwise my Libertarian views might lead me to support unregulated/unbridled capitalism.

[DevilsAdvocate]

I agree with you about the abuses of trans-corporations. I have realized that any system left unchecked whether it is capitalism or socialism will trample on the rights the individual. I have a mix of ideas that include Libertarian, Constitutionalism and Jeffersonian. Ultimately all these come together in my thinking about the rights of the individual being the foremost important factor in preserving freedom. Corporations are organizations and should not be treated even on the same plane as the individual. The rights of the individual is how I am able to support the notion of necessary regulation and limitations on Capitalism and the Corporations. Otherwise my Libertarian views might lead me to support unregulated/unbridled capitalism.

I think you'll find The Corporation well worth your time then given what you said above. I agree w/ you about the rights of the individual superseding any form of economy. My view is that any grouping --society or economy -- is one of individuals and anything beyond that is just abstraction. In any case, I do worry though, as it seems with every generation, individuals "rights" are growing far beyond life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

[Iandefor]

I thought it was fascinating... I can't actually remember much of it now (It's been out in little ole Bellingham since about August, and I saw it in late September), but I can recall my impressions of it: scary. Frightening. And enlightening. It definitely makes a case against corporations.

I'm hardly in favour of Capitalism anyways, so I'm already against corporations as an idea, but The Corporation really just gave some chilling reasons to dislike the corporation even more.

[Stormy Eyes]

In any case, I do worry though, as it seems with every generation, individuals "rights" are growing far beyond life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

That is because people don't distinguish between negative rights, which protect you from others' intrusion, and positive rights which obligate others to provide for you. They forget that one cannot have positive rights with violating another person's negative rights.

[darrenadams]

Where can we see it?
It was on TV here in the UK over the Christmas period, but I imagine that if you don't want to buy the DVD or the book (which I'll actually try to read this year), you can always get a torrent for it from TorrentSpy for example.

You can also find a little more about it from the film's web site http://www.thecorporation.com/

- darren

[Spacecaptain]

That is because people don't distinguish between negative rights, which protect you from others' intrusion, and positive rights which obligate others to provide for you. They forget that one cannot have positive rights with violating another person's negative rights.

For an european it's just amazing to watch how USA laws are becoming more and more a wireframe for conducting business and generating benefit.
will the day come when you will buy shares of the "freedom of speech" law? will you have to pay a rental for the "innocent 'till proven guilty" precept?

these just sound as the most absurd ideas comming out of some locker hidden in a storage room in an archive from the Brazil movie, yes.. but wait....
didn't that guy from the Fraser Institute say that what they embraced was the ideal of "universal ownership model, not just of objects but also of ideas"?!?
this IS insane stuff! Some people are just berserk, and they are bullying their way through your legal system.

[majikstreet]

It was on TV here in the UK over the Christmas period, but I imagine that if you don't want to buy the DVD or the book (which I'll actually try to read this year), you can always get a torrent for it from TorrentSpy for example.

You can also find a little more about it from the film's web site http://www.thecorporation.com/

- darren
you cant post links to torrents here. sorry.

seems interesting though

[Stormy Eyes]

For an european it's just amazing to watch how USA laws are becoming more and more a wireframe for conducting business and generating benefit.

All the US is doing is taking a European idea, fascism, and doing it right. Unfortunately, ballots aren't going to save the US. It's going to take a revolution, and that means killing.

[darrenadams]

you cant post links to torrents here. sorry.

seems interesting though
My bad, I never knew. I've removed the link to the torrent from my OP. If you can remove the link from your post as well, that should be everything.

- darren

[23meg]

I've seen it twice and find it good journalism and propaganda. The one thing that bothered me was the "diagnosis" part, where I found the diagnosis of the corporation as a psycopath a bit too straight and square, being acquainted with Deleuze and Guattari's thorough criticism of capitalism that labels it schizophrenic instead.

[Spacecaptain]

I've seen it twice and find it good journalism and propaganda. The one thing that bothered me was the "diagnosis" part, where I found the diagnosis of the corporation as a psycopath a bit too straight and square, being acquainted with Deleuze and Guattari's thorough criticism of capitalism that labels it schizophrenic instead.

indeed, the analogy of psycopathic personality applied to corporation is a bit to loose, and cannot be taken to seriously. to my taste, the first chapter of the documentary (where this diagnose idea is exposed) is the weaker of the three.
but in a deeper analysis, what i think they inteded by this "propagandistic method" was to caricature the concept of Incorcoprations, as stipulated in law, equating them to people owning individual unabrigable rights. this concept is in itself absurd and a transvestite of the original ideas of the french revolution and the declaration of human rights. thus, the usage of mockery (the psycopathic diagnose applied to corporations) is just an extension of the same transvetite precept.
but i do agree that while this is the punchline they used to promote the documentary, the rest of the docu has better arguments.

(edited typos and spelling)

[Spacecaptain]

All the US is doing is taking a European idea, fascism, and doing it right. Unfortunately, ballots aren't going to save the US. It's going to take a revolution, and that means killing.

again i agree. i intended in no way to mock USA laws comparing them to european laws. ours are quite flawed too, allthough in another way.
it would be an innocent standpoint to think otherwise.

i think the USA and the Americas in general are one of the places in the world where certain concepts are being installed in the boldest way, as there seems to be little opposition or conscience of their scope and effects. Probably China is the only place where this evolution is emerging and speeding up even faster.
And yes, Europe did invent fascism, as well as many other society structures, most of them dreadfull. we are no saints, but our scleritic way of thinking may protect us from evolving those bad habits as fast as in other places. no merit in that, we are just slower and more apprehensive.

[mstlyevil]

The USA is not alone in trying to find ways to limit individual rights and circumvent the rule of law. I just read several articles on the UK and it's attempt to track every vehicle in the entire country. They plan on keeping a database on where every vehicle traveled for five years in the name of "safety".
I also think fascism is a little strong when describing where the United States is heading. It is more of a mix of a Fascist/Socialist system where both the Corporation and the Government are trying to control what the individual does.

I have no problem with corporations if the laws governing them are clearly defined and enforced. Governments around the world are turning a blind eye to corporate abuses because of the money these institutions generate for the Governments. If existing US laws were applied to Worldcom or Enron and other corporations that abused their power, individuals would not have victimized and ripped off in the first place. Not all coroporations abuse their power and many are socially concious. Governments on the other hand need to quit trying to elevate corporations to the level of the individual and do their job which is to protect the individuals rights.

Socialism in it's extreme is no better. Instead of the corporation being elevated, it is the State. Now you have one large corporate entity that controlls everything and crushes individual rights and liberties. Regulated Capitalism is not perfect but it is historically the best system so far when it comes to individual rights.

[DevilsAdvocate]

That is because people don't distinguish between negative rights, which protect you from others' intrusion, and positive rights which obligate others to provide for you. They forget that one cannot have positive rights with violating another person's negative rights.

I hadn't analyzed it like that but I'd have to agree.