Tata nano what the.....

[elliotn]

I read on the news that TATA has launched the most cheapest car, the NANO, 100 000 rupees or R20 000, lol the streets will be over crowded with nano's

[Giant Speck]

For those not living in India, currency conversions are as follows:

100,000 rupees =

$1,984.95
£1,360.75
€1,464.04

Also, here is a link to a New York Times article about it: http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/10/tata-nano-the-worlds-cheapest-car/

[KCG102282]

For those not living in India, currency conversions are as follows:

100,000 rupees =

$1,984.95
£1,360.75
€1,464.04

Also, here is a link to a New York Times article about it: http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/10/tata-nano-the-worlds-cheapest-car/
Thanks :)

[Johnsie]

I can get a much better second hand car for less than that. No deal.

[GepettoBR]

I can get a much better second hand car for less than that. No deal.

Yes, you can. But do you live in India?

[elliotn]

Uhh for my size lol I wonder if I will fit on it, no aircon, no eletric windows, no power starring

[albandy]

perfect, a country with about 900.000.000 people. and a cheap and fuel powered car, instead of doing an electric one.

A perfect way for increasing C02

[gn2]

perfect, a country with about 900.000.000 people. and a cheap and fuel powered car, instead of doing an electric one.

A perfect way for increasing C02

How do you suppose the electricity gets made and what do you do with all the toxic dead batteries?

[Giant Speck]

How do you suppose the electricity gets made and what do you do with all the toxic dead batteries?

Exactly. Unless you live in an area that is powered solely by hydroelectricity, solar power, or wind power, a battery-powered car is almost no better than a fuel-injection car.

[sujoy]

hmmm, they even gave notice to start booking for it :P expecting to deliver them by july, 09

god the streets here are crowded as it is. wonder with nano coming in, where i am supposed to walk now :P

[GepettoBR]

How do you suppose the electricity gets made and what do you do with all the toxic dead batteries?

Wind power, solar power, hydraulic power. And gasoline-powered cars have toxic batteries as well.

[albandy]

How do you suppose the electricity gets made and what do you do with all the toxic dead batteries?

Nuclear plants, solar power plants and wind power plants produce 0% CO2

and batteries could be recycled.

[elliotn]

But an eletric car would do beta may with a solar panel on its roof btw SA is making one

[GepettoBR]

Exactly. Unless you live in an area that is powered solely by hydroelectricity, solar power, or wind power, a battery-powered car is almost no better than a fuel-injection car.

That's a stretch. If the propoertion of clean energy production in the region is higher than 0%, the electric car will be less pollutant than the fuel car, because the fuel car is 100% unclean energy. The difference may be small, but it's there and honestly with such a huge population it adds up to something significant.

But honestly, whenever people ask "why make an electric car", I think "well, why not?"

[smbm]

perfect, a country with about 900.000.000 people. and a cheap and fuel powered car, instead of doing an electric one.

A perfect way for increasing C02

I believe India is estimated to have around 1.2 billion people now.

[armageddon08]

perfect, a country with about 900.000.000 people. and a cheap and fuel powered car, instead of doing an electric one.

A perfect way for increasing C02

Unless you can come up with a cost-effective, performance-effective and environmental-friendly solution packed in one car, you gotta stick with that.

[albandy]

Unless you can come up with a cost-effective, performance-effective and environmental-friendly solution packed in one car, you gotta stick with that.

With the performance difference between electric and fuel powered engines it's enought to make the change and the maintenance costs of an electric car are less than a fuel powered one.

But there are a lot of economic and political interests in not doing it

[GepettoBR]

Unless you can come up with a cost-effective, performance-effective and environmental-friendly solution packed in one car, you gotta stick with that.

Of all the factors to sacrifice, environmental friendliness is the most ill-advised.

Unfortunately it's the one that actually increases profit when ditched.

[gn2]

Nuclear plants, solar power plants and wind power plants produce 0% CO2

and batteries could be recycled.


CO2 isn't the only pollutant, in fact it's not a pollutant, plants need it to live.

The batteries can't be recycled cleanly.

Nuclear waste is a serious worry.

Solar power plants and wind power will never meet the needs of a highly power hungry society, for them to be adequate, we need to radically change how we live.

That doesn't mean everyone having a cheap car.....

[GepettoBR]

Solar power plants and wind power will never meet the needs of a highly power hungry society, for them to be adequate, we need to radically change how we live.

I call FUD. Provide adequate proof for this unreasonable claim, please.

Napoleon was famously quoted ridiculing the steam engine as something that would never work. The TV was "just a fad" that would never debunk radio. Every new technology is met with skepticism. Some fail, some pull through. Why are you so certain that Solar power in particular will never be feasible?

[albandy]

CO2 isn't the only pollutant, in fact it's not a pollutant, plants need it to live.

The batteries can't be recycled cleanly.

Nuclear waste is a serious worry.

Solar power plants and wind power will never meet the needs of a highly power hungry society, for them to be adequate, we need to radically change how we live.

That doesn't mean everyone having a cheap car.....

Well, here in Spain we are producing our 30% of energy from wind and solar plants and growing so we demonstrated that it's possible to produce enough clean energy.

[gn2]

I call FUD. Provide adequate proof for this unreasonable claim, please.

If you wish to disprove my claim, then you do the work.
Do you really think I'm going to do your research for you?
Get real!

[GepettoBR]

If you wish to disprove my claim, then you do the work.
Do you really think I'm going to do your research for you?
Get real!

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Claiming that the billions of unused Watts of energy that the sun bombards the Earth with constantly can never be used to properly feed our energy matrix is extraordinary. This isn't my research, it's yours.

[gn2]

Well, here in Spain we are producing our 30% of energy from wind and solar plants and growing so we demonstrated that it's possible to produce enough clean energy.

30% is far from "enough" remember that every road vehicle in Spain with very few exceptions will probably be excluded from those stats.

[gn2]

~ Claiming that the billions of unused Watts of energy that the sun bombards the Earth with constantly can never be used to properly feed our energy matrix is extraordinary. ~

I made no such claim.
How would you propose to get an Airbus 380 off the ground with solar or wind generated energy?

[GepettoBR]

I made no such claim.
How would you propose to get an Airbus 380 off the ground with solar or wind generated energy?

Certainly not with any currently available technology. But the matter of covering the surface of an airplane with solar panels treated to resist the pressure changes isn't absurd to take into consideration, and neither is the use of another clean energy source not mentioned in this thread yet, hydrogen energy, which could provide the power necessary to get off the ground. The solar cells could then provide the necessary energy to maintain the aircraft throughout the flight.

It is, in fact, theoretically easier to gather solar energy from cruise altitude than from the ground, since the larger concentration of clouds is below 30 thousand feet.

[sonu 1807]

Every one seems to be suddenly worried about environment when there is a prospect of common people living in developing world owning a car.... its only the rich in developed world who have the birthright of owning cars (oil-guzzling SUVs).....just surf internet a little bit to compare the per capita emission of different countries and you will know who is actually polutting the world.... nano is highly fuel-efficient...

[gn2]

Certainly not with any currently available technology.

Correct.

Like I said before, we need to change how we live if we want solar and wind generation to provide us with adequate energy.

[GepettoBR]

Every one seems to be suddenly worried about environment when there is a prospect of common people living in developing world owning a car.... its only the rich in developed world who have the birthright of owning cars (oil-guzzling SUVs).....just surf internet a little bit to compare the per capita emission of different countries and you will know who is actually polutting the world.... nano is highly fuel-efficient...

We did get sidetracked, but the post that began this parallel discussion was precisely pointing out that the sudden availability of cheap cars to a large population will impact the environment. I don't believe any one of us here thinks that the nano is a bad idea because of it, but it does hasten the need for cleaner energy sources.

Expecting every developing nation to reach the commodity level of the developed nations while depending on the same energy sources as today is unrealistic, precisely because the developed nations, while a population minority, are responsible for the great majority of the planet's pollution. Do you think it's feasible if suddenly every nation on Earth had the same per capita pollution ratio of the USA?

This is why the discussion was veered to the ecological side. Certainly the nano will be extremely helpful to the Indian society, and if it catches on elsewhere, all the better. But we musn't forget that vehicles are responsible for a great part of the big cities' atmospheric pollution.

[gn2]

We did get sidetracked, but the post that began this parallel discussion was precisely pointing out that the sudden availability of cheap cars to a large population will impact the environment. I don't believe any one of us here thinks that the nano is a bad idea because of it, but it does hasten the need for cleaner energy sources.

Expecting every developing nation to reach the commodity level of the developed nations while depending on the same energy sources as today is unrealistic, precisely because the developed nations, while a population minority, are responsible for the great majority of the planet's pollution. Do you think it's feasible if suddenly every nation on Earth had the same per capita pollution ratio of the USA?

This is why the discussion was veered to the ecological side. Certainly the nano will be extremely helpful to the Indian society, and if it catches on elsewhere, all the better. But we musn't forget that vehicles are responsible for a great part of the big cities' atmospheric pollution.

Agree with most of this :)
Will it help Indian society?
Overall I doubt it, I reckon it will be detrimental to traffic flow in India's major cities.
You can get round central London on a bicycle faster than in a car, purely because there are too many cars clogging up the roads.
An athlete can even get round the London marathon course on foot faster than a car.

[GepettoBR]

Agree with most of this :)
Will it help Indian society?
Overall I doubt it, I reckon it will be detrimental to traffic flow in India's major cities.
You can get round central London on a bicycle faster than in a car, purely because there are too many cars clogging up the roads.
An athlete can even get round the London marathon course on foot faster than a car.

Still, if the choice is between a wagon and a car and if they'll both clog up the traffic, the car provides better average speeds.

At the very least it's good to have the option.

[sonu 1807]

We did get sidetracked, but the post that began this parallel discussion was precisely pointing out that the sudden availability of cheap cars to a large population will impact the environment. I don't believe any one of us here thinks that the nano is a bad idea because of it, but it does hasten the need for cleaner energy sources.

Expecting every developing nation to reach the commodity level of the developed nations while depending on the same energy sources as today is unrealistic, precisely because the developed nations, while a population minority, are responsible for the great majority of the planet's pollution. Do you think it's feasible if suddenly every nation on Earth had the same per capita pollution ratio of the USA?

This is why the discussion was veered to the ecological side. Certainly the nano will be extremely helpful to the Indian society, and if it catches on elsewhere, all the better. But we musn't forget that vehicles are responsible for a great part of the big cities' atmospheric pollution.

i agree with you.... but there seems to be some hypocrisy which raises suspicion that the criticism is not purely because of environmental concern but because some people are uncomfortable with the fact that new age innovations are not coming from traditional sources (i.e western world)... we all have biases... In India also there are lot of negative and incorrect biases about the western world.... TATAs are also working on an engine that would use compressed air... may be they can do it and do it cheaply... i hope so... i also hope US and Australia join kyoto protocol

[albandy]

i agree with you.... but there seems to be some hypocrisy which raises suspicion that the criticism is not purely because of environmental concern but because some people are uncomfortable with the fact that new age innovations are not coming from traditional sources (i.e western world)... we all have biases... In India also there are lot of negative and incorrect biases about the western world.... TATAs are also working on an engine that would use compressed air... may be they can do it and do it cheaply... i hope so... i also hope US and Australia join kyoto protocol

I'm completely sure they can do it, french people created a compressed air engine before.

[sonu 1807]

Well i would like to apologise if any one felt offended.... but as I said there are biases...and may be even I have that weakness .... my family is relatively well off (by Indian standard) and we own a few vehicles... i can not put the burden of protecting environment on others and cry foul if others start to drive car....oil is hurting Indian economy and over 70% of our need is fulfilled by imports... and so i certainly do not welcome over-dependence on it... but I will always welcome any innovation (that is why i switched to ubuntu :D when I came to know about it through my IT entrepenurer brother)...may be somebody will be able to develop a clean engine... and may be it can be fitted into NANO so that we will have a cheap affordable car...unlike unaffordable solar vehicles...

[tom66]

I call FUD. Provide adequate proof for this unreasonable claim, please.

Napoleon was famously quoted ridiculing the steam engine as something that would never work. The TV was "just a fad" that would never debunk radio. Every new technology is met with skepticism. Some fail, some pull through. Why are you so certain that Solar power in particular will never be feasible?

Solar power requires the sun. As well as this, it is only 10-15% efficient - only 10-15% of the light hitting the panel is actually converted into useful energy. Solar panels are fragile, and they can't provide much power - it's why solar panels of a small size can power a calculator but not much else.

Wind power requires wind and that's not always available. It also doesn't produce that much energy, and turbines need to be placed high enough on hills or somewhere else appropriate.

[Giant Speck]

I love how this went from the world's cheapest car to people at each other's throats, debating about energy.

[sonu 1807]

I love how this went from the world's cheapest car to people at each other's throats, debating about energy.

happens in every unrestricted free discussion.. thatz the beauty of it

[gn2]

I love how this went from the world's cheapest car to people at each other's throats, debating about energy.

Hardly "at each other's throats" just enjoying a good debate. :)

Affordability of this vehicle will accelerate adooption of motorised transport by people who would otherwise not have it, potentially in huge numbers.
Environmentally speaking, this is A Bad Thing.

Conversely, if you're one of the people who can now afford a car and have clear roads to enjoy using it on it's great!

[Stan_1936]

I read on the news that TATA has launched the most cheapest car, the NANO, 100 000 rupees or R20 000, lol the streets will be over crowded with nano's

According to the New York Times, the unveiling of the car was in January 2008. Apparently you only found out 3 hours ago.

[albandy]

Solar power requires the sun. As well as this, it is only 10-15% efficient - only 10-15% of the light hitting the panel is actually converted into useful energy. Solar panels are fragile, and they can't provide much power - it's why solar panels of a small size can power a calculator but not much else.

Wind power requires wind and that's not always available. It also doesn't produce that much energy, and turbines need to be placed high enough on hills or somewhere else appropriate.

the top of performance of a fuel engine it's about 30%, the performance of solar cells it's growin.

[gn2]

According to the New York Times, the unveiling of the car was in January 2008. Apparently you only found out 3 hours ago.

There's a difference between "unveiling" and production models actually going on sale which is what was announced this week.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7957671.stm

[amitabhishek]

my family is relatively well off (by Indian standard) and we own a few vehicles...

Bro. if you are well off by Indian Standard then you are well off by any standard ;). This discussion is like a deja vu because I remember getting into a similar chit-chat almost a year ago on an Indian forum. Yes some stereotype do exist and that poverty porn movie (Slumdog Millionaire) did no good either. It may be premature to assume that this car will only be seen in so called Third World Countries (whatever that term means). A cheap car need not be necessarily bad. Its getting some good reviews (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25237360-401,00.html).

[sonu 1807]

Bro. if you are well off by Indian Standard then you are well off by any standard ;). This discussion is like a deja vu because I remember getting into a similar chit-chat almost a year ago on an Indian forum. Yes some stereotype do exist and that poverty porn movie (Slumdog Millionaire) did no good either. It may be premature to assume that this car will only be seen in so called Third World Countries (whatever that term means). A cheap car need not be necessarily bad. Its getting some good reviews (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25237360-401,00.html).

I also hated slumdog...it just reinforces typical western bias...i do feel i enjoy a much better living std than many in western world... for ex. I never had to cook food... not as a child neither as an adult now as I can afford to order food from hotel even with my modest salary as a cop....don't get me wrong Ido paymy bills always :D

[GepettoBR]

Solar power requires the sun. As well as this, it is only 10-15% efficient - only 10-15% of the light hitting the panel is actually converted into useful energy. Solar panels are fragile, and they can't provide much power - it's why solar panels of a small size can power a calculator but not much else.

Wind power requires wind and that's not always available. It also doesn't produce that much energy, and turbines need to be placed high enough on hills or somewhere else appropriate.

This is with current technology. If you read back on my post, you'll see that my gripe was with gn2's claim that it would never be feasible. The 30% efficiency of fuel engines is a recent figure, it started out MUCH lower. The same will happen with solar cells over time, and their fragility is also a problem that can easily be solved through adequate research.

Overall, no thermal engine will ever be able to exceed the ~40% efficiency of Carnot's machine but I'm willing to bet that solar cells will get a lot closer than combustion engines.

[gn2]

~ I'm willing to bet that solar cells will get a lot closer than combustion engines.

Would you be prepared to bet on a solar powered commercial airliner or satellite launcher in the next 20 years?

[GepettoBR]

Would you be prepared to bet on a solar powered commercial airliner or satellite launcher in the next 20 years?
Satellite launcher? No. Commercial airliner? Maybe.

[gn2]

Commercial airliner? Maybe.

Is there any solar powered self launching aircraft manned or unmanned already in production?

[GepettoBR]

Not that I know of. But this question seems to imply that you meant if I'd bet on these being available to the market in 20 years. I apologize for misinterpreting you, but I had thought you merely meant having a working, viable model.

As you surely know, it takes many years for a perfectly functioning model to actually hit the market, especially in cases like this where both the risk and the money involved are huge.

[nath2008uk]

is almost no better than a fuel-injection car.

Still, it's better :)

[gn2]

Not that I know of. But this question seems to imply that you meant if I'd bet on these being available to the market in 20 years. I apologize for misinterpreting you, but I had thought you merely meant having a working, viable model.

As you surely know, it takes many years for a perfectly functioning model to actually hit the market, especially in cases like this where both the risk and the money involved are huge.

Prototype or marketed production item, still won't happen in our lifetime, the power required is too great to be supplied by solar generation.
Especially in the dark or in cloud.

[Changturkey]

How fast does this thing go? (maximum)

[init1]

"well, why not?"
They're expensive, less efficient than gas, and there aren't any practical recharging solutions available yet. That's why.

[gn2]

How fast does this thing go? (maximum)

75mph/ 120kph

Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tata_Nano)

[tsali]

How many pedestrians and scooter riders die in vehicle accidents in India annually? Why would it be so wrong for an Indian man or woman to want to transport their family in an affordable small car instead of trying to squeeze them onto a scooter?

The Nano has a 600cc twin engine that is cleaner and more efficient than most of the scooters it will replace.

[tsali]

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Claiming that the billions of unused Watts of energy that the sun bombards the Earth with constantly can never be used to properly feed our energy matrix is extraordinary. This isn't my research, it's yours.

The entire surface of the earth receives 84Tw in 24hrs.

Current world consumption is 12Tw in 24hrs.

If current silicon solar cells could be made 1/3 efficient and installed on every square meter of the planet's surface, we could produce 28Tw in 24hrs.

Ok, so we only cover half the planet's surface with panels, we could produce 14T.

I wonder about the environmental impact of depriving half of the planet's surface of sunlight...

The real answer?

Nuclear Fusion. Bring the power of the sun HERE.

[mihai.ile]

Well actually the car is going to cost 1500€ in India, not Europe (or US I suspect). I can only talk about the europe entrance for this car as it is not going to be easy because EU demands:
- airbags
- better break system
- better protection from lateral damage
- better protection from frontal damage

(yes the car does have some safety issues, I wouldn't drive one of those with all those flaws)

So after those upgrades the car will cost around 5000€ in European Union

[Johnsie]

Solar cells are too expensive to have on these vehicles. They are getting cheaper but they are still quite expensive. Wind power isn't all it's cracked up to be either. I was part of a team analysing ways we could use renewable energy to bring our power costs down in a govenment building here (holding 600 people). We looked at solar panels, wind turbines etc and they barely provided enough energy to run a kitchen. We got the wind turbine in the end for PR reasons, but in reality it would take about 60 years to pay for itself and the thing will probably only last 20 years. £20,000 is a lot of money just to boil a kettle and make toast.

All this global warming bandwagonism... oh sorry they changed it to 'climate change' when some places didnt warm up, it's probably going to do the earth more harm than good. People will be building new things and throwing the old technology into landfill sites. Farmers who grow biofuels often cut down trees to do so and that affects wildlife. Climate changes in cycles anyway and has done for years. Mother nature is very good at cleaning herself up. No offence, but when you see all the crap that goes on in the world, is there actually any point in sustaining human existence any longer than is necessary?

[Agent.Logic_]

Solar cells are too expensive to have on these vehicles. They are getting cheaper but they are still quite expensive. Wind power isn't all it's cracked up to be either. I was part of a team analysing ways we could use renewable energy to bring our power costs down in a govenment building here (holding 600 people). We looked at solar panels, wind turbines etc and they barely provided enough energy to run a kitchen. We got the wind turbine in the end for PR reasons, but in reality it would take about 60 years to pay for itself and the thing will probably only last 20 years. £20,000 is a lot of money just to boil a kettle and make toast.

All this global warming bandwagonism... oh sorry they changed it to 'climate change' when some places didnt warm up, it's probably going to do the earth more harm than good. People will be building new things and throwing the old technology into landfill sites. Farmers who grow biofuels often cut down trees to do so and that affects wildlife. Climate changes in cycles anyway and has done for years. Mother nature is very good at cleaning herself up. No offence, but when you see all the crap that goes on in the world, is there actually any point in sustaining human existence any longer than is necessary?
+1.

I quote George Carlin from one of his classic stand-up acts:


The planet is fine, the people are f****d, different!

[GepettoBR]

Solar cells are too expensive to have on these vehicles. They are getting cheaper but they are still quite expensive. Wind power isn't all it's cracked up to be either. I was part of a team analysing ways we could use renewable energy to bring our power costs down in a govenment building here (holding 600 people). We looked at solar panels, wind turbines etc and they barely provided enough energy to run a kitchen. We got the wind turbine in the end for PR reasons, but in reality it would take about 60 years to pay for itself and the thing will probably only last 20 years. £20,000 is a lot of money just to boil a kettle and make toast.

All this global warming bandwagonism... oh sorry they changed it to 'climate change' when some places didnt warm up, it's probably going to do the earth more harm than good. People will be building new things and throwing the old technology into landfill sites. Farmers who grow biofuels often cut down trees to do so and that affects wildlife. Climate changes in cycles anyway and has done for years. Mother nature is very good at cleaning herself up. No offence, but when you see all the crap that goes on in the world, is there actually any point in sustaining human existence any longer than is necessary?

And who gets to define "necessary"?

I don't believe in one energy source to replace fossil fuels. But solar, wind, hydrothermal (big here in Brazil, but obviously depends on the hydric network of the location), nuclear and geothermal energy plants, together, can easily generate enough energy if well-implemented. Even if you don't believe in the harm to the environment caused by increased CO2 emissions, it's a cold, hard fact that fossil fuels will eventually run out and we can't sit around waiting for that to happen.

[Giant Speck]

Regardless of this debate, bicycles are better than cars. :p

I love my bicycle.

[s.fox]

How fast does this thing go? (maximum)

I read in the paper that it has a top speed of 65mph.

I also seem to recall seeing something about how it will cost nearer £3K in Europe to meet european safety standards. I'll dig out a source later.

[armageddon08]

regardless of this debate, bicycles are better than cars. :p

i love my bicycle.

+1

[tsali]

Regardless of this debate, bicycles are better than cars. :p

I love my bicycle.

Keep telling yourself that as you ride to work 25k on an icy morning,,,

[mihai.ile]

33km x 2 over here, It would be a nightmare of a bike ride to and from work every day... :D

[Giant Speck]

Keep telling yourself that as you ride to work 25k on an icy morning,,,

I live in Alaska. Fifteen miles on a bicycle on an icy road with proper studded tires is not a problem.