Fingerprint in Ohio Schools

[Aiello]

*****PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A POLITICAL DISCUSSION AND GET THIS*****
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My school (an Ohio public school) plans to start force finger printing students for its lunch program, and I would like to see if anyone can help me dig up some legal info on this. Basically, if you don't get finger printed, the school wont sell you food. Does the school have the legal means to do this? Also, can they refuse to take valid American currency?

-Thanks!

[Dr Small]

They can probably legally do what they please, but I wouldn't buy school food, nor would I attend a public school institution.

[wmcbrine]

Wow, crazy. Do you have a URL reference for this that I might study and/or pass on?

Edit: It sounds like the goal is to bypass handing currency, which is benign. Whether they can pass those prints on to law enforcement would be the real issue. My guess is that they could not.

[KCG102282]

What is the purpose of them doing this?

[Skripka]

What is the fuss?

Back in my day we had other means of identifying students for meal purposes-ID numbers that were linked to accounts.

How is a fingerprint any different? It is also better in that you and only you have access to your meal plan and don't have to worry about classmates stealing your meal money.

Now if you have to be fingerprint checked when paying with cash that is another matter of course...

[klange]

The school is a government program, they can fingerprint you if they feel the need. The question is why are they requiring it?

[tom66]

We have lunch cards at school, we top them up with a few pounds and then use them as debit cards. They contain an ID number on them. They also have a photo attached to them, so if your card is stolen it's obvious that it has and then can refuse... I don't have a problem with this system. Why they don't they use that instead of finger prints, I don't know.

[Aiello]

The school is a government program, they can fingerprint you if they feel the need. The question is why are they requiring it?

The silly thing is, they have no need to. The school currently has an ID card program where you can place money into an account and you can by stuff using the card (kind of like a debit card and checking account). The card has your picture on it so it can't be stolen and used by someone. If you don't have your card on you and you want to buy something, you simply punch in your associated account number into a keypad and it works just fine. When you do this, a picture of you pops up on a screen for school attendant so you can't steal someones number. I don't really mind this, but the idea of giving the school my fingerprint scares me.

As for legal info, the only thing I have found so far is that biometric scanning by schools in banned is Michigan.

[Dr Small]

As for legal info, the only thing I have found so far is that biometric scanning by schools in banned in Michigan.

Biometric scanning is insecure anyhow.

[lisati]

In a way I find the idea of schools requiring fingerprints slightly paranoid and scary - why do they need to? Whatever happened to honesty and trust?
<nostalgic "old person" voice>In my day the schools didn't need such things - corporal punishment, combined with "doing the right thing" was usually enough to keep people on the strait and narrow</nostalgic "old person" voice>

On the other hand, it's their place and their rules, which we should respect as far as we are able while we are there.

[tom66]

I think the Mythbusters proved that at least one biometric scanning system could be defeated with a copy of the fingerprint printed onto a piece of paper, then subsequently licking the paper and placing it on the sensor. The saliva tricked the machine into thinking it was at body temperature and it unlocked the door.

[hyperdude111]

We have lunch cards at school, we top them up with a few pounds and then use them as debit cards. They contain an ID number on them. They also have a photo attached to them, so if your card is stolen it's obvious that it has and then can refuse... I don't have a problem with this system. Why they don't they use that instead of finger prints, I don't know.

I have the EXACT same system as you. What school u at?

[Skripka]

Biometric scanning is insecure anyhow.

True...but we're dealing with school kids, also with biometric scanning the district doesn't have to continue paying for making and replacing student ID cards.

[tom66]

One in the UK, Hurst Community College. We get charged £5 for a new card if we lose or break ours. Then again they are very hardy. I have seen cards with only 1/4 of the magnetic strip intact still work, although they require a bit of work to get in the swiper.

[Dr Small]

True...but we're dealing with school kids, also with biometric scanning the district doesn't have to continue paying for making and replacing student ID cards.
Exactly my point. School kids are more prone to pranks and devious ways around security, as they would be challenged with it daily.

[Skripka]

Exactly my point. School kids are more prone to pranks and devious ways around security, as they would be challenged with it daily.

Conversely, my thinking is that your odds of having kids smart enough to go out and bother dicking around and breaking biometric security are smaller than kids breaking other forms of security, methinks....then again-maybe I'm that old and outta touch with those whipersnappers.

[tom66]

Given a magnetic recording device I could probably read and write over my card's data. However... what would be the point. I would just replace myself with someone else, and they'd have a different picture.

[Skripka]

Given a magnetic recording device I could probably read and write over my card's data. However... what would be the point. I would just replace myself with someone else, and they'd have a different picture.

That is why they make 2000dpi+ color photo scanners/printers Grasshopper.


These are the things you learn with graduate student coursework.

[Aiello]

Well, I have found a variety of rather scary things about these finger scanning systems. Apparently, systems have been hacked rather easy in the past, the claim that the system only stores a number and not a finger print (what my school is saying) is true, but this is the same way police store finger prints, making the school scan nearly identical to that of a police scan and has been cracked before, and that even the Mythbusters were able to fool a scanner through rather simple tactics.

Unfortunately, I have yet to locate any Ohio laws on biometric scanning. I plan on continuing to look.

Anyways, I am now convinced to not let the school scan me and will now just bring in my own food. I'm sure I can get a few other paranoids in my school to start a fun little resistance with me :)

[Dr Small]

Anyways, I am now convinced to not let the school scan me and will now just bring in my own food. I'm sure I can get a few other paranoids in my school to start a fun little resistance with me :)

That's the spirit! :)

[kavon89]

I think this is for a school/lunch account system to help speed up the lines and eliminate the possibility of loosing ones card and having it cleaned out by some.

I can't imagine them requiring a lunch account. How can they not accept cash to buy lunch? I would bring exact change leave it on the counter.

[Dr Small]

I would bring exact change leave it on the counter.

Exact change is inevitable. Unless you have change. :D

[ugm6hr]

Do you have an equivalent of the Data Protection Act?

It is a UK law that requires any identifying database that stores personal data (e.g. photos, name, fingerprints) be used only for identified reasons, be stored securely, be stored only for as long as required, and not be released to external agencies except with your permission (or under specific legal circumstances).

Obligatory wikipaedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_Protection_Act_1998

If there is soemthing similar in Ohio, you can ask to see evidence that the school complies with these requirements.

[bhishan]

I would make my own lunch if I were u.

[Dr Small]

I would make my own lunch if I were u.
Yeah, what happened to kids packing their own lunch and eating it at school? A lost art?

[Skripka]

Yeah, what happened to kids packing their own lunch and eating it at school? A lost art?

During my brief stent at public high school several pizza places had stores to get health food-and it was RIGHT THERE!111!!!!

[Giant Speck]

Yeah, what happened to kids packing their own lunch and eating it at school? A lost art?

To get the same amount of food that a school lunch could provide me for $1.55 when I was in school, my parents would have had to have spent a lot more than that at the grocery store.

[Giant Speck]

When I was in school, our school lunch account was tied to our school ID card. When you walk up to the cash register, they scan the barcode on the back of your card and $1.55 was automatically deducted from your lunch account. If you did not have money in your lunch account, you could pay with cash. Technically, you could go as low as -$15.00 on your lunch account before the school district was not allowed to give you lunch.

We also had an a la carte line where you could buy miscellaneous items for cash, including sub sandwiches, pizza, and spicy chicken sandwiches (oh, how I miss those...).

Furthermore, if you were a junior or senior (11th and 12th grade, respectively), you could leave the school grounds to eat lunch.

The fingerprint scanners seem like a good idea to me. The student doesn't have to worry about accidentally leaving their ID or lunch card at home, and there's a much lower chance that another student is going to try to pass themselves off as you. I mean, come on, what is the student going to do, try to scan in with a severed finger or a piece of scotch tape?

[Dr Small]

The fingerprint scanners seem like a good idea to me. The student doesn't have to worry about accidentally leaving their ID or lunch card at home, and there's a much lower chance that another student is going to try to pass themselves off as you. I mean, come on, what is the student going to do, try to scan in with a severed finger or a piece of scotch tape?
I think it is more or less the right to privacy in this information age. Once they have my fingerprint, then they will probably give the records the the local police station, to the FBI and to the NSA (inter?)national database.

[Giant Speck]

I think it is more or less the right to privacy in this information age. Once they have my fingerprint, then they will probably give the records the the local police station, to the FBI and to the NSA (inter?)national database.

Well, while that may be exaggerating it a bit, you do have a point.

The school should be able to provide the parents upon school registration time a Privacy Act of 1974 agreement, which they would sign. The agreement ensures that the school will not, as stated by the Privacy Act of 1974, "disclose any record which is contained in a system of records by any means of communication to any person, or to another agency, except pursuant to a written request by, or with the prior written consent of, the individual to whom the record pertains."

[Skripka]

I think it is more or less the right to privacy in this information age. Once they have my fingerprint, then they will probably give the records the the local police station, to the FBI and to the NSA (inter?)national database.

In all honesty a fingerprint is rather trivial considering that with your SSN and your date of birth-someone can completely steal your identity. A fingerprint doesn't have anywhere near that much power-at least not for any time in the foreseeable future.

[Dr Small]

In all honesty a fingerprint is rather trivial considering that with your SSN and your date of birth-someone can completely steal your identity. A fingerprint doesn't have anywhere near that much power-at least not for any time in the foreseeable future.
Maybe I'll just give my fingerprint, SSN and birth certificate up, and go be someone else :)

[LowSky]

My school (an Ohio public school) plans to start force finger printing students for its lunch program, and I would like to see if anyone can help me dig up some legal info on this. Basically, if you don't get finger printed, the school wont sell you food. Does the school have the legal means to do this? Also, can they refuse to take valid American currency?

-Thanks!

The people on this forum are from all over, sure their are many Americans, but just as many people from the rest of the world. Their laws and even my laws are different than yours (and I live in New York). federal law doesn't really intervene in local laws, unless they are unconstitutional, which this isn't, immoral maybe, but not against the law.

* Tenth Amendment of the Bill of Rights – Powers of states and people.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

I hate to tell you this but the law is based on your State.
I don't know how many Buckeyes are on the forums that could help you, but you might have better luck finding a lawyer that deals with state rights or by bringing the issue up with the school board. Best thing is to start a petition with the students and parent and lastly teachers if possible.


You're argument is that this violates basic freedoms, but I would say what right are you actually giving away?

[Skripka]

Maybe I'll just give my fingerprint, SSN and birth certificate up, and go be someone else :)

It really is less trouble....probably ;)

[Dr Small]

You're argument is that this violates basic freedoms, but I would say what right are you actually giving away?

The right to keep my fingerprint out a public school/state/government archive, that is, if it is mandatory.

[Aiello]

You're argument is that this violates basic freedoms, but I would say what right are you actually giving away?

Arguable, it could be a violation to a right to privacy, possible falling under the Fourth Amendment (applying to unwarented searches of person, but that could be hard to pull off as people get searched by police/government officals all the time), or the Ninth Amendment (Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights).

Anyways, with no Oho law (as far as I know of) prohibiting or limiting the use of biometric data such as there is in other states, theroretically my (or anyone elses) fingerprint could be used for nearly any purpose.

There has got to be an Ohio law SOMEWHERE that states to what extent biometric data collected from school fingerprinting can be used. Only if I could find it...

[Dr Small]

There has got to be an Ohio law SOMEWHERE that states to what extent biometric data collected from school fingerprinting can be used. Only if I could find it...

Know a lawyer, or a friend of a friend of a lawyer? You may be able to find out that way, in simpler terms.

[Skripka]

Arguable, it could be a violation to a right to privacy, possible falling under the Fourth Amendment (applying to unwarented searches of person, but that could be hard to pull off as people get searched by police/government officals all the time), or the Ninth Amendment (Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights).

Anyways, with no Oho law (as far as I know of) prohibiting or limiting the use of biometric data such as there is in other states, theroretically my (or anyone elses) fingerprint could be used for nearly any purpose.

There has got to be an Ohio law SOMEWHERE that states to what extent biometric data collected from school fingerprinting can be used. Only if I could find it...

Folks remember-we're talking about school kids here. People under the age of 18 have a very limited set of "rights" to begin with, in the US.

In the US minors cannot vote, drink alcohol, lockers can be subject to search by the school without a warrant, etc-ergo the Constitution does not necessarily apply, since we are not dealing with a class of person who are "full citizens" if you will. If the State, as gaurdian (during the school day) deems it necessary to the safety of minors--odds are it is game, set, match, game over.

[Aiello]

Yeah... you are probably right. I guess I can still raise hell about it though :)
Still, I would like to know to what extent the data can be used.

[Dr Small]

Yeah... you are probably right. I guess I can still raise hell about it though :)
Still, I would like to know to what extent the data can be used.
Personally, it doesn't matter to me. If they have it, they can lie about they are going to use it for, sell it, distribute it, and have other people use it. I'd rather they never have it in the first place.

[cholericfun]

minors or not:
searching your locker = 15 years old
having your fingerprint = lifetime info...

theres lots of arguments for taking fingerprints, the questions is how much can be messed with it.
(A LOT - if it suits people)
so...

this is not about bad george stealing your lunch card to eat Rice % Salsa sauce.
insecure data is a common newsheader.. some gov. emplyees seem to put it in to their CV that data will be secure...
only nobody nows how.
Data stored = data public
dig that HD into a hole in the mountains, its still a HD full of info you may or may not want people to get hands on (=use).

[Dr Small]

dig that HD into a hole in the mountains, its still a HD full of info you may or may not want people to get hands on (=use).

Better yet, eliminate the data.
http://driveslag.eecue.com/

[Skripka]

minors or not:
searching your locker = 15 years old
having your fingerprint = lifetime info...

theres lots of arguments for taking fingerprints, the questions is how much can be messed with it.
(A LOT - if it suits people)
so...

this is not about bad george stealing your lunch card to eat Rice % Salsa sauce.
insecure data is a common newsheader.. some gov. emplyees seem to put it in to their CV that data will be secure...
only nobody nows how.
Data stored = data public
dig that HD into a hole in the mountains, its still a HD full of info you may or may not want people to get hands on (=use).

You need to read my prior posting.

Having my fingerprints will get you NOTHING. Nada. It is a neat piece of info-but it doesn't get you as a data criminal/ID thief much of anything.

Steal my SSN and date of birth-and I am SOL.

[cholericfun]

You need to read my prior posting.

Having my fingerprints will get you NOTHING. Nada. It is a neat piece of info-but it doesn't get you as a data criminal/ID thief much of anything.

Steal my SSN and date of birth-and I am SOL.

so...?

[Skripka]

so...?

Worrying about a school using fingerprints to secure their lunch program due to the potential for data theft does not make sense. Stealing someone's fingerprints won't get the thief anything at all of value-apart from an arrest warrant.

[cholericfun]

unless you feel like "finding" someone and have their FPs ready all over

i agree, there shouldnt be much of a problem,
on the other hand i - one thing i trust- the jud system to be as perverse as can be (nothing personal..!)


edit:
+ someone going through the bother of USING it

[cholericfun]

Worrying about a school using fingerprints to secure their lunch program due to the potential for data theft does not make sense. Stealing someone's fingerprints won't get the thief anything at all of value-apart from an arrest warrant.

whats so top security about Lunch????

[oldsoundguy]

way past school ..

but think on this .. they require a thumb print for your drivers license and nobody is crying the sky is falling over that.

You are required to have total fingerprints submitted if you go into the military or take any civil service job.

Now when they get around to requiring DNA, THEN you should start worrying as that can be used to see if you are pre-disposed to certain physical ailments and you could be DENIED INSURANCE because of that. THAT is the time to say NO!!

[cholericfun]

whats irritating me is that theres a school canteen the is supposed to make sense/ require of your fingerprint...

but i will shut up now since i am no legal expert in Ohio nor anywheere else and cant really help...

[lisati]

way past school ..

but think on this .. they require a thumb print for your drivers license and nobody is crying the sky is falling over that.

You are required to have total fingerprints submitted if you go into the military or take any civil service job.

Now when they get around to requiring DNA, THEN you should start worrying as that can be used to see if you are pre-disposed to certain physical ailments and you could be DENIED INSURANCE because of that. THAT is the time to say NO!!
This is beginning to sound a bit like "Minority Report". Why should I have to give out my DNA in order to eat lunch? Or "so what?" if I sometimes exhibit eccentricities that resemble Asperger's Syndrome?

whats irritating me is that theres a school canteen the is supposed to make sense/ require of your fingerprint...

but i will shut up now since i am no legal expert in Ohio nor anywheere else and cant really help...
I would hope that the canteen is able to get on with the task of providing some kind of food, without technical or legal niceties tripping them up.

[Dr Small]

but think on this .. they require a thumb print for your drivers license and nobody is crying the sky is falling over that.

Do you live is the U.S.? Fingerprints aren't required for a driver's license here (at least in my state).

[Riffer]

http://www.woio.com/global/story.asp?s=2885663&ClientTpe=Printable

http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=292262

http://timesonline.typepad.com/schoolgate/2009/03/should-schools.html

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/01/24/national/main266789.shtml

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,225600,00.html

Here are a few articles on fingerprinting in schools. It seems that fingerprinting in the UK is less benign then in the US. Also this technology has been around for awhile, one story from 2001.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-486930/The-sinister-truth-childrens-fingerprints.html

The above site is a very good story on why not to have fingerprinting of school children.

[So Tough]

What is the purpose of them doing this?

So they can find who's been lifting the cookies from the kitchen

[chubble10]

We have lunch cards at school, we top them up with a few pounds and then use them as debit cards. They contain an ID number on them. They also have a photo attached to them, so if your card is stolen it's obvious that it has and then can refuse... I don't have a problem with this system. Why they don't they use that instead of finger prints, I don't know.

same here

[dacorr]

the school can do what they choose as long as the students, staff an parents are aware and sign an acceptance form, however its what the school plans on doing with the fingerprint data and is retention that i would be more concerned about.

[kk0sse54]

*****PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A POLITICAL DISCUSSION AND GET THIS*****
*****THREAD LOCKED. I AM LOOKING FOR FACTS/INFO AND NOT POLITICAL *****
*****OPINIONS! THANKS <(^^,)> *****

My school (an Ohio public school) plans to start force finger printing students for its lunch program, and I would like to see if anyone can help me dig up some legal info on this. Basically, if you don't get finger printed, the school wont sell you food. Does the school have the legal means to do this? Also, can they refuse to take valid American currency?

-Thanks!

Of course they can do this, as an American student you have basically no civil rights when walking on to any school campus. In the U.S., students as a demographic group probably have the less civil rights than a convicted criminal (well maybe not cmpared to something like a sex offender...).

[oldsoundguy]

Do you live is the U.S.? Fingerprints aren't required for a driver's license here (at least in my state).
The practice IS in the US and is spreading:
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0818698.html

[PurposeOfReason]

I read this whole thread and see a lot of tin foil hat people posting. Really, a fingerprint, is nothing in this age. It can identify a person, that is about it. If you have somebody elses, you can either:
a) frame them
b) be them

but both require nobody no notice you aren't using your finger and instead, a copy. This exact same argument about freedom happened when they started putting metal dectors in schools, look how many killings those stopped. Do any of you think, "hey, maybe this will make things better. Maybe the worst that will happen is the school has my fingerprint." So what if they give it to the cops, the feds, anyone. If you are being the person we all should be, there is nothing for them to find.

Take off your damn hats.

[wmcbrine]

Thumb a hundred for the clock tower?


The practice IS in the US and is spreading:
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/society/A0818698.htmlThat says it's in "some states", but it doesn't say which.

[DMcA]

Here are a few articles on fingerprinting in schools. It seems that fingerprinting in the UK is less benign then in the US. Also this technology has been around for awhile, one story from 2001.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-486930/The-sinister-truth-childrens-fingerprints.html

The above site is a very good story on why not to have fingerprinting of school children.

The article may or may not be to some extent correct. However, it's in the daily mail, so should be disregarded instantly.

[K.Mandla]

I read through the thread so far and thought to myself, "Wow, for all the money that would go into fingerprinting and card reading technology, they could probably cut the price of the lunch enough to give it away to everybody." :|