IBM to buy SUN ?

[newbie2]

IBM is reportedly in talks to buy Sun Microsystems for $6.5 billion and the deal is long overdue. The companies mesh on the open source software front, Sun is struggling and IBM can consolidate some server market share.

First, the headlines. The Wall Street Journal is reporting that IBM could acquire Sun as early as this week (Techmeme).
http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=14817

[jimi_hendrix]

i was just about to post this...good thing i scrolled down

i wonder what will happen to java and opensolaris

[TheLions]

i was just about to post this...good thing i scrolled down

i wonder what will happen to java and opensolaris

and to OpenOffice since Ubuntu will support IBM Lotus!

[newbie2]

and to MySQL vs DB2 ?

[DeadSuperHero]

Crap. Ages ago, I was really hoping this would be the OTHER way around.

I wanted Sun to buy IBM!

[Dragonbite]

I think we're going to see a lot of this type stuff with the economy the way it is and "big guys" possibly being weakened while "little guys" have prepared.

Db2 and MySQL work on two different levels and I doubt IBM would get rid of MySQL (screw it up? maybe, but not intentionally destroy it). There was an article I read yesterday talking about how it would have been good for Oracle to buy MySQL and how they would work together.

DB2 is a huge enterprise orientated database and a money-maker. MySQL works on the lower-end of the spectrum and I am not sure too many enterprises will rely their mission critical applications on MySQL.

Maybe they'll make it easier for WebSphere to connect to MySQL?

Symphony is based on OpenOffice and there has been talk about OpenOffice not developing as rapidly as people would like (thus why go-OO, which Novell sponsors/develops and Ubuntu uses, came out). Perhaps this can give a kick to OpenOffice to catch up and put the fire into MS Office's behind? Can hope!

Unfortunately Symphony is based on Eclipse somehow and is dogged-slow.

I don't think IBM is going to do much to Java. IBM, as far as I know, does not have a development language to compete with Microsoft's .NET language. Combined with Mono, then .NET is more cross-platform and Java is the biggest competitor which is in part why C# was designed to be an easy migration for Java developers (or so I've heard).

Hopefully they won't trash NetBeans to move everybody over to Eclipse.

[SunnyRabbiera]

i was just about to post this...good thing i scrolled down

i wonder what will happen to java and opensolaris

Nothing I suspect, IBM will probably keep both around and open source.
IBM is an ally to open source.

[directhex]

I think we're going to see a lot of this type stuff with the economy the way it is and "big guys" possibly being weakened while "little guys" have prepared.

Db2 and MySQL work on two different levels and I doubt IBM would get rid of MySQL (screw it up? maybe, but not intentionally destroy it). There was an article I read yesterday talking about how it would have been good for Oracle to buy MySQL and how they would work together.

DB2 is a huge enterprise orientated database and a money-maker. MySQL works on the lower-end of the spectrum and I am not sure too many enterprises will rely their mission critical applications on MySQL.

Maybe they'll make it easier for WebSphere to connect to MySQL?

Symphony is based on OpenOffice and there has been talk about OpenOffice not developing as rapidly as people would like (thus why go-OO, which Novell sponsors/develops and Ubuntu uses, came out). Perhaps this can give a kick to OpenOffice to catch up and put the fire into MS Office's behind? Can hope!

Unfortunately Symphony is based on Eclipse somehow and is dogged-slow.

I don't think IBM is going to do much to Java. IBM, as far as I know, does not have a development language to compete with Microsoft's .NET language. Combined with Mono, then .NET is more cross-platform and Java is the biggest competitor which is in part why C# was designed to be an easy migration for Java developers (or so I've heard).

Hopefully they won't trash NetBeans to move everybody over to Eclipse.

IBM have been using Java for years - they have their own JVM for PPC platforms

[mips]

Hopefully IBM changes the ZFS license...

[jimi_hendrix]

Nothing I suspect, IBM will probably keep both around and open source.
IBM is an ally to open source.

probably rename it to something more generic and buisnessy though

[directhex]

IBM and Sun have aligned businesses in many places, but I wonder who would end up being dropped in cases where there are competitors:

AIX or Solaris?

PowerPC or SPARC?

XL or Sun Studio?

DB2 or MySQL?

And so on. You can ask Tru64 users how well maintained they were (as compared to HP-UX users) after HP bought Compaq

[bettlebrox]

If the merger goes ahead it'll be an interesting time for UNIX, as IBM has AIX, and Sun has Solaris. Two of the major UNIX platform, but very different, and run on different hardware. Linux in it's early days was strongly influenced by Solaris as many of the Linux kernel & OS hackers had worked on Solaris previously.

Plus, Sun has Sparc and IBM has PowerPC, so which will stay and which will go?

[Mazza558]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123735970806267921.html#printMode


IBM in Talks to Buy Sun in Bid to Add to Web Heft

International Business Machines Corp. is in talks to buy Sun Microsystems Inc., people familiar with the matter said, a combination that would bolster IBM's heft on the Internet, in software and in finance and telecommunications markets.
[An exterior view of Sun Microsystems Inc. headquarters in Palo Alto, Calif..]



Thoughts?

I'm wondering about what will happen to OpenOffice if this goes through. IBM would also gain 41% of the world server market.

[swoll1980]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123735970806267921.html#printMode



Thoughts?

I'm wondering about what will happen to OpenOffice if this goes through. IBM would gain 41% of the world server market if this went through.

I don't get how Sun makes money with their software.

[Mehall]

Wow. 2nd thread today about this at least.


And I think OO.o will actually be hurried up rather than scrapped.

[KiwiNZ]

IBM has an Open Office derivative Lotus Symphony

It is actually quite good

[hanzomon4]

What would this mean for zfs? Open Solaris!!! Is IBM fond of the gpl or at least a compatible license?

[smartboyathome]

What would this mean for zfs? Open Solaris!!! Is IBM fond of the gpl or at least a compatible license?

Yes, they in fact created a commercial and ran it during the Superbowl in 2002. They are friends to us. ;)

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

IBM also offered a Virtualization Service. Most of what I read about it suggests IBM used VMware. Will they start using Sun xVM Virtualbox?

It appears that Cisco is entering the server market, and teaming with VMware for Virtualization. Could IBM be taking this into consideration?

[Old_Grey_Wolf]

Wow. 2nd thread today about this at least.

Could a Moderator merge the two threads?

[wmcbrine]

Well, it's better than Sun going out of business, which might be the alternative. But I'm not crazy about it.

P.S. Also better than Microsoft buying it.

[Grant A.]

Holy cow... check out how much Sun stock jumped up.

[jimi_hendrix]

P.S. Also better than Microsoft buying it.

and so dies java

[jimi_hendrix]

Holy cow... check out how much Sun stock jumped up.

doubled

[danbuter]

IBM uses Java a lot, so I don't think it will die. It might become closed-source again, though. OO could easily be killed off, which would really suck.

IMO, while IBM has generally been friendly towards Open Source, I just can't trust a giant corporation to preserve all the good things Sun has during a merger.

[T2manner]

If IBM buys Sun, what would the point be in discontinuing all of Sun's open source projects?

[kevin11951]

If IBM buys Sun, what would the point be in discontinuing all of Sun's open source projects?

maybe they could just release all the open source stuff to the community, and just keep what they need.

[cardinals_fan]

IMO, while IBM has generally been friendly towards Open Source, I just can't trust a giant corporation to preserve all the good things Sun has during a merger.
And Sun wasn't a giant enough corporation for you? ;)

Anyway, I have a lot of respect for IBM. Their DeveloperWorks site is great.

[T2manner]

It sounds like IBM is looking to buy Sun because of all their software projects. So getting rid of them wouldn't make any sense.

[kevin11951]

It sounds like IBM is looking to buy Sun because of all their software projects. So getting rid of them wouldn't make any sense.

im guessing that was directed at me, well they should at least release openoffice from the grips of sun...

[T2manner]

No, it wasn't.
Everybody was talking about how OpenOffice, Java, OpenSolaris, etc. are all going to go away because IBM is looking into buying Sun.
It was directed at them.

[jimi_hendrix]

No, it wasn't.
Everybody was talking about how OpenOffice, Java, OpenSolaris, etc. are all going to go away because IBM is looking into buying Sun.
It was directed at them.

its obvious its not going away...i just want to see where they take it

[wmcbrine]

IBM uses Java a lot, so I don't think it will die. It might become closed-source again, though. OO could easily be killed off, which would really suck.I see no reason to expect such things.

In fact, IBM is probably the best buyer they could have, from our standpoint. I just would prefer they remained independent.

[Dr. C]

IBM has been into FLOSS for quite a while, with, a strong involvement in the Linux Kernel, they were very involved in the drafting of GPL v3 (one can read how the lawyers for IBM and the FSF negotiated over DRM keeping trusted computing in the enterprise while killing treacherous computing in consumer applications in GPL v3), are a supporter of the FSF etc.

A lot of Sun's FLOSS OpenOffice.org, Virtualbox, Java, Solaris make a lot of sense for IBM in their competition with Microsoft.

[kavon89]

I can only imagine good comming out of the merger. IBM has always seemingly supported java and I even think they produce their own version of the runtime environment, I've landed on many IBM resource pages for java developers:

http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/

[Roasted]

Does this mean that IBM essentially has the ability to close off source to all of Sun's products?

Not saying that they will, I'm just questioning, licensing wise, if IBM would have the ability to shut the door 5 minutes after buying Sun...

I'm a big fan of IBM, but things like this make me nervous. I'm a huuuuuge Open Source fan and I praise it every chance I can get. I really hope Open Source Software goes no where but up from here...

Don't let us down, IBM.

[Redache]

Does this mean that IBM essentially has the ability to close off source to all of Sun's products?

Not saying that they will, I'm just questioning, licensing wise, if IBM would have the ability to shut the door 5 minutes after buying Sun...

I'm a big fan of IBM, but things like this make me nervous. I'm a huuuuuge Open Source fan and I praise it every chance I can get. I really hope Open Source Software goes no where but up from here...

Don't let us down, IBM.

I can't see why IBM would even consider doing that, the PR fiasco alone would be enough to discourage them.

From what I see if IBM buy Sun they want to extend their product line whilst hopefully keeping the Sun Staff. Can you imagine the Superior Interface of Lotus merged with the functionality of Open Office? This could be an unbelievably good thing if it's done right.

IBM wont start killing off Software Projects since Sun DOES have a following, the only company that has ever been pig headed and arrogant enough to do that is Nvidia and 3DFX.

I just hope SPARC won't die, it's good to have competing Architectures.

[Roasted]

I sure hope they don't do anything with MySQL...

FOG (open source cloning software) runs on MySQL, and I just got it running at work and it's such a blessing to have. It makes my job 100% easier. I'd be so pissed if IBM shut down MySQL or something and as a result FOG went out the window.

[samjh]

I don't really like it, because I don't like having all our eggs (or at least the major ones) in one basket.

IBM and Sun have been VERY POWERFUL players in the FOSS community, particular in promoting and maintaining the market share of FOSS and FOSS-based products in the corporate IT sector. They have also been competitors against each other, which has led to turbo-charged development speed and very solid products from both companies.

If they merge into one huge monolith (and a huge monolith it will be), then:
1. Competition between IBM and Sun's products are reduced.
2. Reduced competition means reduced innovation.
3. Reduced competition also means it is easier for other competitors (particularly Microsoft) to attack IBM/Sun's products.
4. Since IBM/Sun's products on servers and corporate IT are either FLOSS or FOSS-based, this means the foothold FOSS has in corporate IT will become more vulnerable to closed-source products (eg. Microsoft's).

Furthermore, regardless of IBM and Sun's seemingly philanthropic efforts in the FOSS community, they are businesses, and businesses exist ONLY to make money. Should IBM decide that two FOSS or FOSS-based products serving the same market niche are counter-productive to their money-making efforts (eg. Glassfish and WebSphere), then one of those projects will be cut, leading to a big loss of support for a FOSS project which might otherwise have been maintained by competition.

It sounds nice to have such a huge FOSS portfolio managed to one company. But as I said, putting all the big eggs in one basket doesn't feel very safe to me.

[Trail]

I really like SUN. I also like IBM (but admittedly less). Hopefully, such a merge won't let me (us) down. I see no obvious reason for trashing Sun's projects, so I'd be quite surprised if something like this happened for no good reason.

PS. Please kill netbeans. It's horrible. Die.

[samjh]

PS. Please kill netbeans. It's horrible. Die.

Please keep quiet. Netbeans is good. :)

[gnomeuser]

A lot of Sun's FLOSS OpenOffice.org, Virtualbox, Java, Solaris make a lot of sense for IBM in their competition with Microsoft.

Even if they abandon OpenOffice Novell is heavily invested and already has more active contributors than Sun working on the project. It will, unfortunately, live on. IBM are already basically forking OOo to produce some of their own products, I doubt it will make a big difference to them owning the brand name as they would probably keep their own Lotus name as it is. Sun has already mistreated OOo to the point where Novell basically has taken over development in their own tree due to SUN playing politics.

As for Solaris and Java, admittedly few things would please me more than to see them die, I really dislike both as redundant overmanaged underdeveloped projects. I know Java is widely used but it's under the GPL now if it was go to the halls of Valhalla someone else so inclined on wasting money could do so. Red Hat and Google are both invested in Java technology, Google even has their own Java work in Android, if IBM was to let the Java brand die due to mismanagement (something SUN admittedly had succeeded in doing for years so it can't be that hard, I am sure IBM can manage to follow up on that trend). Java will live on regardless, to the continued horror of mankind, like a lumbering zombie forever seeking to devourer our delicious brains.

Solaris has never managed to foster a community around it's code, they duplicate a lot of effort and don't actively play their strengths. Maybe IBM could turn that around but they already have AIX as well as massive investments in Linux, adding another OS doesn't make sense to me, at best they could part out DTrace and ZFS under more suitable licenses and port them to Linux then let the rest slumber on till such a time and they can let it die service contracts fulfilled. Again, also nice patents might be available for IBM here, but IBM has a huge patent portpolio already I doubt it really serves much of a point to spend billions buying something they can get dirt cheap by forcing cross-licensing agreements.

I don't really see what is so special about Virtualbox, aside the kernel module code making seasoned code reviewers scream in terror (no kidding, it's that bad), without extensive cleanups it won't make it into the kernel. Even if it does it will make it what, the 5th virtualization option we have when everyone else already had put their energy behind KVM. Surely some kind of more optimal solution could be found than continually adding new virtualization solutions to the kernel.

Bringing us to SPARC, IBM already have plenty of CPU designs and SPARC doesn't really fill a hole in their offerings. Nor is the chip a frontrunner for any market openings, with ARM positioned to take a bite out of the netbook and nettop markets, MIPS being favored by the chinese and x86/x86_64 currently dominating the desktops. IBM already have the contracts for XBOX360 and the PS3. SPARC just doesn't add anything to this mix. Perhaps they will gain some valuable patents but that is about it.

I just don't really see the business reasons to buy SUN for IBM or anyone.

[Dragonbite]

Just realized, combine "big blue" and Sun and you get the blue solar picture like Fedora 10 uses! Maybe they know something we didn't!

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8153/solarfedora.th.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=solarfedora.jpg)

Or maybe it's a conspiracy! :popcorn:

[basilf]

IBM is a major supporter of Linux and the merger of IBM and Java will only make Linux and Ubuntu stronger. :KS

[gnomeuser]

IBM is a major supporter of Linux and the merger of IBM and Java will only make Linux and Ubuntu stronger. :KS

Because IBM's primary motives for spending 6.5 billion USD is how to benefit Canonical rather than IBM. What kind of upside down business model would this follow?

Dana Gardner agrees with me - this makes no logical sense from an economic pov (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Gardner/?p=2857).

[Roasted]

I happen to know somebody who works for OSS development within IBM and he said he and everybody he knows at IBM is excited for the merger. He's the biggest OSS advocate I know, so if he knew something was up I'd certainly be hearing a different story.

[Dragonbite]

Because IBM's primary motives for spending 6.5 billion USD is how to benefit Canonical rather than IBM. What kind of upside down business model would this follow?


Makes me wonder how this would impact Red Hat w/JBoss.

[gnomeuser]

Makes me wonder how this would impact Red Hat w/JBoss.

Well, Red Hat are already getting sued over patent infringement for JBoss. No need for SUN to get bought by anyone for bad stuff to happen there.

[johnb820]

Sun just needed more time I think to work everything out. Of course, I'm not keen on the ins and outs of the computer industry, but I have always respected Sun for what they did. They built a solid server OS complete with home grown hardware and the likes. They developed one of the most widely used programming languages out there, and were getting their feet wet with open source projects, primarily OpenSolaris, and OpenJDK. I hope that legacy can continue into the future with this merger but somehow I feel like IBM is going to their own agenda into the equation. We'll see how this plays out if the deal does go through, which at the moment looks pretty likely.

[LowSky]

I see this merger as a good thing.
Openoffice will have a bigger and better development team... Something tells me IBM might go on an offensive with it LotusNotes Branding and try to build support for it against Microsoft.

This only helps IBM, they are more of a service company now, so having a stronger or better selection of products to use to help clients is very helpful. A purchase of Sun also gets IBM back into the Operating System business with solaris. sure Solaris has some issues but imagine if some of the good technology is freed up and developed for Linux. Hell we might see IBM reporting a new OS for sale on servers, and maybe an opensource project backed by one of the biggest companies in the computer industry.

Not to mention I live in a town that basically relies heavily on IBM, so anything they do that brings new employment is a good thing for my whole community.

[mips]

They developed one of the most widely used programming languages out there...

I wish they never did though.

[Dragonbite]

I wish they never did though.

Which language would you have preferred to be more adopted?

Microsoft's C# is basically Java but with faults fixed.

[Frak]

I like IBM, and I like Sun. Win/Win

Be aware that IBM heavily relies on Sun's software and other Open Source software for many of their products as it is. Lotus anyone?

Oh, and software company mergers don't usually involve much change in the product end of the merge. IBM will probably assign them an extra project, take down a failed project, merge the assets to balance the checkbook, and everyone goes amoung their happy days.

[forrestcupp]

Well, like others have said, I hope they don't ditch OO.o because they have Symphony. LS has some pretty awesome features, but it's clunky. I'd hate to see OpenOffice just disappear because of that. Thank God for go-oo in case it does, though.

Also, we don't need to worry about the other things, like Java & MySQL. IBM can't wait to get their hands on those things and have them in their name.

On the hardware side, this will be a good move. They'll be able to join the best of both companies and compete better in the server market.

[lykwydchykyn]

A few points about OpenOffice and Symphony:
- Symphony is proprietary. It's based off an older version of OpenOffice code released under a different license which allows it to be so. If I'm incorrect about this please let me know and show me where I can get Symphony source code.
- Sun requires copyright assignment for all OOo contributions, so whoever owns Sun owns OOo and can relicense it as they see fit (including incorporating it into proprietary products).
- Perhaps IBM wants access to newer OOo code for Symphony? Not that I suspect this is the reason for the merger, but it might be a nice side benefit.

[Dragonbite]

A few points about OpenOffice and Symphony:
- Symphony is proprietary. It's based off an older version of OpenOffice code released under a different license which allows it to be so. If I'm incorrect about this please let me know and show me where I can get Symphony source code.
- Sun requires copyright assignment for all OOo contributions, so whoever owns Sun owns OOo and can relicense it as they see fit (including incorporating it into proprietary products).
- Perhaps IBM wants access to newer OOo code for Symphony? Not that I suspect this is the reason for the merger, but it might be a nice side benefit.

I heard that whiel Symphony is based off of OpenOffice and changed heavily, IBM was looking at steering it BACK to Openoffice because OpenOffice has the community developers that Symphony doesn't.

[lykwydchykyn]

I would hate to see any of Symphony, Star Office, or OpenOffice go away/get merged into another program. I personally think having multiple free (if only in the monetary sense) suites that implement the ODF standard is a good thing from a standards adoption standpoint.

[gnomeuser]

I heard that whiel Symphony is based off of OpenOffice and changed heavily, IBM was looking at steering it BACK to Openoffice because OpenOffice has the community developers that Symphony doesn't.

Strange since OpenOffice doesn't have the community of developers OpenOffice needs.. according to Michael Meeks, an OpenOffice developer.

[Redache]

Strange since OpenOffice doesn't have the community of developers OpenOffice needs.. according to Michael Meeks, an OpenOffice developer.

I think what's implied is that IBM dev's would still work on Lotus but having the added benefit of more eyes from the community looking at the code could help its development.

Sun have never really pushed on the development of Open Office, probably because Star Office is the money maker of the two. If IBM updated Lotus to the new Code base and adopted a GPL License, which it would have to if it acquired Open Office, then there's a chance that Vendors like Novell might add more to the code. If it does happen like this I hope that IBM are more willing to accept patches than Sun are.


Microsoft's C# is basically Java but with faults fixed.

But it's not Open or Cross Platform like Java, which gives Java a massive advantage.

Java seems to be a very Black and White Language, some Devs Love it, others absolutley loathe it. I guess it depends on what Applications you work on, I personally like Java.

Basically IBM buying Sun would not be so bad.

[forrestcupp]

- Sun requires copyright assignment for all OOo contributions, so whoever owns Sun owns OOo and can relicense it as they see fit (including incorporating it into proprietary products).
- Perhaps IBM wants access to newer OOo code for Symphony? Not that I suspect this is the reason for the merger, but it might be a nice side benefit.

Interesting thought. If that's possible, and they could use OOo's newer code base in Symphony, that would solve a lot of Symphony's problems and make it a great option.

I don't think OOo is GPL, is it?

[lykwydchykyn]

Interesting thought. If that's possible, and they could use OOo's newer code base in Symphony, that would solve a lot of Symphony's problems and make it a great option.

I don't think OOo is GPL, is it?

It's LGPLv3. But if you own the copyright to the code, you can relicense or dual-license the code any way you see fit. This is what Sun currently does (and how they can offer a proprietary product from the same code base).

So IBM buying Sun would allow IBM to basically do the same thing with Symphony: let the community develop OOo, then add on the proprietary bits to make Symphony.

The thing is, in order to do this you have to require copyright assignment from your contributors. My understanding is that this is one of the major hangups of Michael Meeks and the go-oo developers (though I'm not an expert on that situation). So I don't know that IBM buying Sun would help the OOo community problem Meeks is talking about.

That is, of course, assuming IBM WANTS to dual-license the code a la Sun. Who knows what IBM wants?

[directhex]

But it's not Open or Cross Platform like Java, which gives Java a massive advantage.

Not Open? You DO know it's a published standard with a published spec, right?

[forrestcupp]

It's LGPLv3. But if you own the copyright to the code, you can relicense or dual-license the code any way you see fit. This is what Sun currently does (and how they can offer a proprietary product from the same code base).

True, but I'm pretty sure you can only relicense a new version. They couldn't change the license on the versions that already exist.

[lykwydchykyn]

True, but I'm pretty sure you can only relicense a new version. They couldn't change the license on the versions that already exist.

No, they couldn't. And I don't think they would want to cease OpenOffice's open source development or change the license.

I think it's more a question of them doing with Symphony what Sun is doing with StarOffice, which means the community situation wouldn't be much improved.

Symphony would be greatly improved, but StarOffice would likely be trashed or die a slow death on extended support.

[toupeiro]

I'm an avid fan of Sun and support both Sun and IBM hardware. I do not like dealing with IBM from a business standpoint. Sun is much better and easier to work with IMO. I believe Sun has superior offerings from a software and hardware portfolio to IBM. I for one would really hate to see how Sun will look if something like this takes place... My new SunFires are the most powerful, energy efficient, and cost effective servers in my data center... Seeing how bitterly fierce Sun and IBM have been over the years in competition, I think the IBM would liquidate more of the Sun line of offerings from hardware, but from a software standpoint they may absorb quite a bit from Sun.

I still dont like it. One less option in the server sector is NOT something thats going to help the economy...