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bryncoles
February 26th, 2009, 05:18 PM
http://www.itproportal.com/portal/news/article/2009/2/25/third-dell-inspiron-mini-9-netbooks-comes-ubuntu/

some people are obsessed with market share, some arent. if you are, enjoy this snippit.


Dell has been bucking the market trend by selling a higher than usual percentage of its popular Inspiron Mini 9 netbooks with the Ubuntu OS rather than Windows XP Home with 33 percent of Netbooks equipped with Linux.


Bu (sic) there could yet be another reason explaining why Ubuntu was doing so well. The price delta between the cheapest Inspiron Mini 9 with Ubuntu and the cheapest Windows-based Mini 9 is a whopping £100, plus in the UK, there are three Linux SKUs compared to one for Windows XP.

binbash
February 26th, 2009, 05:40 PM
Linux is very popular at netbook market, it makes netbook's price cheaper so most prefer linux over windows.This is good.

_noob_
February 26th, 2009, 05:44 PM
It's a double-edged sword so to speak. More people means more noteriety for the OS. But it also means that people will be more inclined to code viri and malware and the like.

sydbat
February 26th, 2009, 05:48 PM
It's a double-edged sword so to speak. More people means more noteriety for the OS. But it also means that people will be more inclined to code viri and malware and the like.Sorry, but no. This has been discussed to death on this forum (do a search) and is basically myth. If it were true, then all the servers running Linux, or the open source Apache (something in the range of 80-90%) would be virus infected, malware spewing bots.

Also, viri (or virii) is not a word. Viruses would be correct.

BuffaloX
February 26th, 2009, 08:13 PM
This is very good news. 33% is huge for Linux.

cmay
February 26th, 2009, 09:37 PM
i have a feeling that the netbooks are going to end up a linux per default marked .

the vendors get more advantage and the users once they learn to love linux for what linux is gets a cheap and stable system for what the netbooks are ment to do. acces to internet mostly. the computers start faster and do not need anti virus. they are very safe and for what the most common uses are they are in fact as easy as windows is to use.

i think as time goes by and within the next five years or so there will be no other systems on computers than a preinstalled linux version from the factory. i am a bit clayovant on this one so i follow these tendencies about linux shares as close as i can to see what happens.

Sealbhach
February 26th, 2009, 09:42 PM
the vendors get more advantage and the users once they learn to love linux for what linux is gets a cheap and stable system for what the netbooks are ment to do. acces to internet mostly. the computers start faster and do not need anti virus.

Also, the vendors don't have to deal with hassle and interference from Microsoft. I'd imagine Canonical would be much easier to do business with.


.

bryncoles
February 27th, 2009, 11:28 AM
its been said before (but i forget where) that the best thing about this is the indirect harm it does to other companies market share. it doesnt just give customers a different OS to use, it gives companies a different OS to sell. that means they have the leverage to turn around to microsoft and say 'no, i wont pay your license fee. ill do fine without'.

the exposure this gives linux is amazing, and good for the market, and for the consumer regardless of what OS they use. if microsoft has competition, it'll force them to release good products, no more vista / ME's, or people will know they have somewhere to migrate to. and microsoft will have to adopt open standards, as if people cant interlope their netbook with their PC, they might just decide that they dont want a windows-based PC (since windows on a netbook is not the best idea ever).

give it another year or two, things could get very interesting...

mikewhatever
February 27th, 2009, 11:39 AM
Sorry, but no. This has been discussed to death on this forum (do a search) and is basically myth. If it were true, then all the servers running Linux, or the open source Apache (something in the range of 80-90%) would be virus infected, malware spewing bots.

Also, viri (or virii) is not a word. Viruses would be correct.

Just a correction on the Apache market share. 80-90% is way way overhead, 50% is more like it.
http://ostatic.com/blog/apache-holds-steady-market-share-still-dominating-microsoft-iis


its been said before (but i forget where) that the best thing about this is the indirect harm it does to other companies market share. it doesnt just give customers a different OS to use, it gives companies a different OS to sell. that means they have the leverage to turn around to microsoft and say 'no, i wont pay your license fee. ill do fine without'.


Not so fast. It's apparent that 67% of Dell's netbooks are sold with Windows.

I-75
February 27th, 2009, 11:49 AM
How come Linux desktop still has only a 0.83% market share despite all these advances?

amauk
February 27th, 2009, 11:56 AM
How come Linux desktop still has only a 0.83% market share despite all these advances?
cause the stats touted by those websites are highly inaccurate and suspect

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=6772557#post6772557


Usage share stats are dodgy at best

Those that tout "market share" are based on sales of computers pre-installed with a certain OS
Sales are easy to record and monitor

They do not account for Windows machines wiped and reloaded with a different OS
and the vast majority of Linux installs are not pre-installed by an OEM

Those that monitor a browser's user-agent string are also inaccurate
They typically monitor certain "types" of sites, and you get skewed results
(w3schools is a prime example here)

According to Canonical, there's 10 million unique IPs that hit the repos for updates.
I believe Novell & RedHat also publish stats on how many IPs hit their servers for updates

Of course, these stats are also inaccurate, as there could be 100 machines behind one IP

There just isn't a reliable way to track users
(a lot of people probably don't want to be tracked)

If I had to guess (I have nothing to back this up)
I'd say, 3-5% of desktop machines run Linux
50-60% of servers run Linux


Also, there's room for saying netbooks are not "desktop" machines
so some stats may just ignore them completely

Johnsie
February 27th, 2009, 12:58 PM
I don't believe the overall stats because they can't be reliably measured. However looking at the real world I see very few companies and schools here using anything other than Windows on their desktops. That may vary from region to region but vast majority of people here are using Windows and most people I talk to don't even know what Linux is or only have stereotypical perceptions of it. Linux doesn't appear to be much more common on the desktop than it was 3 years ago.

Also, Linux has the highest return rate in relation to the number sold. People are buying the things, not knowing how to work them and not getting professional support for devices and broadband.

bryncoles
February 27th, 2009, 01:04 PM
Not so fast. It's apparent that 67% of Dell's netbooks are sold with Windows.

thats true. but absolute figures arent important. what matters is potential. 33% of (dells netbook) sales go to linux. that is one third, that is breaking the dependency. firefox is considered a viable threat in the browser wars with only 20% of the market (http://www.informationweek.com/news/internet/browsers/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=212201517&subSection=All+Stories, http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2008/01/firefox-gobbles-up-more-internet-explorer-market-share.ars, http://marketshare.hitslink.com/), so i think we can consider 33% of (dell's share of the) netbook market significant.

and consider if you will:

http://www.zdnet.co.uk/zdnetuk/community/blog/0,1000000567,10012172o-2000630136b,00.htm


What gives netbook manufacturers enough leverage to screw Microsoft down on OEM licence costs?

...

Furthermore, without the presence and ongoing viability of desktop Linux for small form-factor devices (eg, Eeebuntu, Android), there's no way that Microsoft would have done an about-face on scuttling XP in 2008, nor could they have been beaten down on OEM licence costs. In fact, the sheer presence and viability of Linux puts an upper limit on how much Microsoft dares charge for Windows 7 OEM licences for these netbooks.

and in addition:

http://www.e-linux.it/news_detail.php?id=7928


But now Microsoft is facing several new trends in tech. “Cheap computing” has been predicted by experts for years but is finally a reality. And on a $250 netbook, an additional $50-60 for an OS is a significant amount of money. Linux has been sharpening its teeth over the years and is finally ready for the prime-time. And the internet has become the operating system. The advent of Firefox and Open Office allows users to do the vast majority of tasks they want to do with their computer.

...

In war strategy, controlling the high ground is often the key to winning the battle. In computing, the low end is the high ground. Decades ago companies like Digital and Wang Laboratories controlled the computer market with their mini-computer. Then Microsoft and the PC market emerged. Overtime, PC cannibalized the sales of mini-computers, and companies like Digital and Wang have been relegated to histo0ry (sic) books. The same effect is happening again. Netbooks are altering the playing field.

33% is a clear message that linux is a viable desktop operating system. its forced microsoft to re-think the discontinuation of XP, and to reconsider its ever-increasing OS weight matched by ever-increasing computing power to run the OS strategy.

and although you are right - we shouldnt get too excited just yet...

http://osnews.com/story/21035/Ballmer_Linux_Bigger_Competitor_than_Apple


In any case, it appears that Linux (and piracy) is a larger blip on Microsoft's radar than Apple, and it's not hard to see why. With an economy that's not doing very well, people will opt for cheaper products. Apple cannot offer those, but Linux and piracy can.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/148915_msftlinux19.html


Microsoft Corp., in particular, has identified the open-source Linux operating system as a serious competitive threat, rallying employees around the cause and commissioning studies in an effort to prove to the computing public that Windows is superior.

conehead77
February 27th, 2009, 03:20 PM
Also, Linux has the highest return rate in relation to the number sold. People are buying the things, not knowing how to work them and not getting professional support for devices and broadband.

According to Dell, the the return rate of Ubuntu running Mini 9s are comparable to the XP rate, which we are told is “very low.” “Our focus has been making sure that before the order is taken is that the customer knows what he is getting,” New added.
http://blog.laptopmag.com/one-third-of-dell-inspiron-mini-9s-sold-run-linux

andrewabc
February 27th, 2009, 08:29 PM
How come Linux desktop still has only a 0.83% market share despite all these advances?

I have two computers. Both came with windows XP (one is 7 years old, the other 3 years). I have ubuntu running on both of them. They get counted when sold as XP machines. Only web sites know that I use ubuntu. Also, barely anyone uses linux... Netbooks might represent 0.5% (pulled that out of my ***) of the market right now, so even if all netbooks came with linux, they would still represent at most 1%.

amauk
February 28th, 2009, 10:14 PM
I have two computers. Both came with windows XP (one is 7 years old, the other 3 years). I have ubuntu running on both of them. They get counted when sold as XP machines. Only web sites know that I use ubuntu. Also, barely anyone uses linux... Netbooks might represent 0.5% (pulled that out of my ***) of the market right now, so even if all netbooks came with linux, they would still represent at most 1%.
I think you underestimate just how many netbooks have sold....

students have them by the bucket load
they're cheap, small & light
and perfect for notetaking in lectures

Netbooks account for a significant %age of computer sales

andrewabc
February 28th, 2009, 10:55 PM
I think you underestimate just how many netbooks have sold....

students have them by the bucket load
they're cheap, small & light
and perfect for notetaking in lectures

Netbooks account for a significant %age of computer sales

I havn't seen anyone using a netbook before where I'm at. Don't know anyone that owns one. They are being sold in retail stores, so people will end up having them.

I really don't think notebooks have much market share compared to desktops/laptops. Sure they are growing, but at the moment they don't have significant market share in my opinion.
In Canada, netbooks are selling for $400-500, and you can get a core2duo full laptop for the same price. I do see they are actually cheap in USA ($300)

newbie2
March 1st, 2009, 12:25 AM
by eevargas : "Dell , start supporting Linux for real !"

I tried to buy a Linux laptop from Dell Puerto Rico Web-site. When a configure my laptop it cost almost $300 box more than the same configuration with Vista. This is just unacceptable. I entered in a chat with a Dell representative and he said that the only thing he can do is to sell me the laptop at the same price as the Vista couterpart. I disagreed, because Linux don't has any licens cost, but he said that it is the best he can do. I ordered my laptop anyway ( had no other choice) on Dec 22, 2008. Todays is Jan 8, 2009 and I recive an email saying that my order will be delayed ( no reson gived) and Del hasn't even charge my creditcard. So i don't know if actually i will recive my laptop or not. Are Dell supporting Linux or not ? Linux custumers should be treated in equal terms as Windows custumers. When I explainded my problem to Dell's representative, his first solution was "Why don't you buy your laptop with Vista". He said that he can gave me a better deal with Vista ... how come? Linux is free and opensource and he can gave a better deal with Vista ! I don't understant Dell's Linux strategy.
http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/28600/
:rolleyes:

mikewhatever
March 1st, 2009, 11:09 PM
thats true. but absolute figures arent important. what matters is potential. 33% of (dells netbook) sales go to linux. that is one third, that is breaking the dependency. firefox is considered a viable threat in the browser wars with only 20% of the market (http://www.informationweek.com/news/internet/browsers/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=212201517&subSection=All+Stories, http://arstechnica.com/open-source/news/2008/01/firefox-gobbles-up-more-internet-explorer-market-share.ars, http://marketshare.hitslink.com/), so i think we can consider 33% of (dell's share of the) netbook market significant.

Let me do some math for you. Let's assume Dell sells about 20% of all the netbooks in the world, and a third of that with Linux. That makes it about 7% of the global market share. A quoter of those sold get returned, so we are down to about less then 5%. Dell is not the only company selling netbooks, and some, Lenovo, Samsung, don't offer them with Linux at all. Conclusion - you can't compare Dell's 33% to Firefoxe's 20%, they aren't the same.


and consider if you will:

http://www.zdnet.co.uk/zdnetuk/community/blog/0,1000000567,10012172o-2000630136b,00.htm


So Linux is not a threat to MS? That article completely contradicts whatever you claimed above.

I like optimism, but yours seems to be groundless.

saulgoode
March 2nd, 2009, 01:08 AM
Let me do some math for you. Let's assume Dell sells about 20% of all the netbooks in the world,...
According to CNET (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10119456-1.html), Dell has 2.8% of the netbook market (as of December 2008 ).


... and a third of that with Linux. That makes it about 7% of the global market share.
The fact that your analysis failed to take into account 97.2% of the market, and that a certain percentage of Dell's overseas market might also be shipped with Linux, would seem to make your "math" little more than speculation.


A quoter of those sold get returned, so we are down to about less then 5%.
The only distributor who reported a 25% return rate for their Linux netbooks is MSI (and they never specified how many Linux netbook sales were recorded). According to the same statistics previously cited, MSI holds 5.7% of the netbook market. Acer, ASUS, and HP, the three leading netbook marketers, account for 75% of the netbook market and they, in addition to Dell, have all stated that they've noticed no higher return rate for their Linux netbooks than for their Windows-based ones.

Transien
March 2nd, 2009, 01:21 AM
I havn't seen anyone using a netbook before where I'm at. Don't know anyone that owns one. They are being sold in retail stores, so people will end up having them.

I really don't think notebooks have much market share compared to desktops/laptops. Sure they are growing, but at the moment they don't have significant market share in my opinion.
In Canada, netbooks are selling for $400-500, and you can get a core2duo full laptop for the same price. I do see they are actually cheap in USA ($300)

I'm a college student and I see tons of people with Netbooks; I haven't had a chance to check out what OS they are running, but it doesn't change the fact that they are becoming more and more popular. The only reason I haven't shopped for one is that I have fat fingers and worry that typing would be a pain :D

mikewhatever
March 2nd, 2009, 06:03 AM
According to CNET (http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10119456-1.html), Dell has 2.8% of the netbook market (as of December 2008 ).

That would make Dell's global Linux netbooks market share very small indeed, that is less then one percent. Anyone's still optimistic?



The fact that your analysis failed to take into account 97.2% of the market, and that a certain percentage of Dell's overseas market might also be shipped with Linux, would seem to make your "math" little more than speculation.

Thanks for the 'a little more', but no, it was purely speculative in the first place.



The only distributor who reported a 25% return rate for their Linux netbooks is MSI (and they never specified how many Linux netbook sales were recorded). According to the same statistics previously cited, MSI holds 5.7% of the netbook market. Acer, ASUS, and HP, the three leading netbook marketers, account for 75% of the netbook market and they, in addition to Dell, have all stated that they've noticed no higher return rate for their Linux netbooks than for their Windows-based ones.

Take a look.
http://blog.laptopmag.com/ubuntu-confirms-linux-netbook-returns-higher-than-anticpated

bryncoles
March 2nd, 2009, 12:29 PM
did you read all of the article(http://www.zdnet.co.uk/zdnetuk/community/blog/0,1000000567,10012172o-2000630136b,00.htm)? if so, then i think we're both picking up different information from it!

anyway, the whole point isnt that linux is growing in market share, or that its going to dominate the desktop anytime soon. the point is taht its changing the market for computers.

the point of the znet article (for me) is this simple question: what made the netbook possible? cheapo hardware is one thing. low cost, low powered porcessors. what OS was the default to put on them? windows? not XP, as its reaching end-of-life (honest, any day now microsoft will pull the plug!). not vista, its requirements are too high. windows 7? that might end up on netbooks, but it wasnt available at their inception.


What is it that makes products like Amazon's Kindle and hundreds of other e-book, portable media and mobile Internet gadgets possible, all by eschewing Microsoft's embedded OSes?

The answer of course, is Linux.

so: linux got put on netbooks. and when that happened, microsoft had to change its business strategy, to make windows 7 streamlined and efficient rather than resource-heavy and ugly. they had to reinvigorate xp, to work on netbooks so they could compete with linux (by having an OS!).

any compared to any other computer market, linux does well on netbooks (we get OEM installs too!)

so yeah, im still optimistic!

saulgoode
March 2nd, 2009, 01:00 PM
That would make Dell's global Linux netbooks market share very small indeed, that is less then one percent.
Even if the DisplaySearch figure of 2.8% is Dell's U.S. market share, it would be incorrect to conclude they only have 1% of the global market (because Dell sells Linux netbooks outside the U.S.). It would be similar to concluding that women comprise only 2% of the world's population because 50% of U.S. citizens are female.


Thanks for the 'a little more', but no, it was purely speculative in the first place.
I don't mind speculation. I just think that if you wish to present "math", it should be reasonably mathematical and consistent with the statistics being presented.

For what it's worth, I incorrectly stated in my post that MSI reported a 25% return rate for Linux netbooks; they actually reported that returns of MSI Linux netbooks occurred four times as often MSI Windows netbooks. No ratio of returns relative to sales was offered.


Take a look.
http://blog.laptopmag.com/ubuntu-confirms-linux-netbook-returns-higher-than-anticpated
I have no reason to doubt Canonical's assertion that the return rate is higher for Ubuntu Dell netbooks than for Windows Dell netbooks. Nonetheless, there is no data presented which supports your speculation that "a quoter of those sold get returned" (assuming you meant a "quarter").

Maybe I have misinterpreted your point, but if you have a source which suggests that 25% of Linux netbooks sales result in returned items, I should be interested in knowing it. I've never seen any research, or even off-the-cuff comments from marketers, that would support that.

mikewhatever
March 2nd, 2009, 04:53 PM
did you read all of the article(http://www.zdnet.co.uk/zdnetuk/community/blog/0,1000000567,10012172o-2000630136b,00.htm)? if so, then i think we're both picking up different information from it!

...

so yeah, im still optimistic!

I really don't care neither about Windows, nor about MS. Whether or not they are going to drop XP, or how well/bad Vista runs, or whether MS can/can't adjust it's software for netbooks, all that doesn't matter to me, nor is it relevant to the topic of this thread. The point I've been trying to make is, whatever Dell sells with Linux is a drop in the sea.


Even if the DisplaySearch figure of 2.8% is Dell's U.S. market share, it would be incorrect to conclude they only have 1% of the global market (because Dell sells Linux netbooks outside the U.S.). It would be similar to concluding that women comprise only 2% of the world's population because 50% of U.S. citizens are female.

I don't mind speculation. I just think that if you wish to present "math", it should be reasonably mathematical and consistent with the statistics being presented.


I'd gladly accept my inferiority in math if you kindly quote the phrase 'US market share' from the said article.




For what it's worth, I incorrectly stated in my post that MSI reported a 25% return rate for Linux netbooks; they actually reported that returns of MSI Linux netbooks occurred four times as often MSI Windows netbooks. No ratio of returns relative to sales was offered.


I have no reason to doubt Canonical's assertion that the return rate is higher for Ubuntu Dell netbooks than for Windows Dell netbooks. Nonetheless, there is no data presented which supports your speculation that "a quoter of those sold get returned" (assuming you meant a "quarter").

Maybe I have misinterpreted your point, but if you have a source which suggests that 25% of Linux netbooks sales result in returned items, I should be interested in knowing it. I've never seen any research, or even off-the-cuff comments from marketers, that would support that.

Yes, the 25% return rate is my mistake. We don't know what percentage gets returned. That said, don't you see that it doesn't matter?

saulgoode
March 2nd, 2009, 08:27 PM
I'd gladly accept my inferiority in math if you kindly quote the phrase 'US market share' from the said article.
I'm not sure whether the figures in that table were global or U.S. specific (which is why I qualified my statement with "if"). The number of sales for the OLPC suggests that it was global (the Amazon G1G1 OLPC sales program wasn't during the covered timeframe). But as I stated, even if the Dell figures were for U.S. sales, without additional data there would be no basis upon which to conclude that global sales were much less (or much more, or even the same).

The 2.8% share in that table was for the third quarter of 2008; which I assume covers July, August, September. The Dell Mini 9 was not offered until the middle of September, so one might be optimistic that their share has since increased. Of course, such optimism would be mere speculation; more recent marketshare data would be needed.


Yes, the 25% return rate is my mistake. We don't know what percentage gets returned. That said, don't you see that it doesn't matter?
Last year laptop sales overtook desktop sales. In other words, laptops accounted for more than half of personal computer sales.

According to various sources, out of a total of 39 million laptops sold last year, over 11 million were netbooks. If a quarter of those netbooks had Linux installed, that would mean that Linux accounted for 7% of laptop sales and that 3.5% of all personal computers sold last were Linux machines (and this ignoring whatever share of notebook and desktop machines came with Linux).

Feel free to correct my math if it is amiss, but I would contend that Linux having a 3.5% share of overall computer sales is rather significant.

bryncoles
March 3rd, 2009, 02:59 PM
I really don't care neither about Windows, nor about MS. Whether or not they are going to drop XP, or how well/bad Vista runs, or whether MS can/can't adjust it's software for netbooks, all that doesn't matter to me

i did start with a disclaimer that some people dont care, and some do. the post was intended for those that do care. over the course of this thread, that seems to have been more people than i thought would! ;-)


Feel free to correct my math if it is amiss, but I would contend that Linux having a 3.5% share of overall computer sales is rather significant.

and (accepting armchair maths at face value) this is roughly why i thought it was interesting!


The point I've been trying to make is, whatever Dell sells with Linux is a drop in the sea.

then all is good, as the point i wanted to make at the start is that linux is 33% of dells sales.

this i later expanded to the quality, availability and cost of linux-based OS's and services are causing a change in the personal computing market.