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JimmyJazz
December 23rd, 2005, 04:24 AM
http://wired.com/news/technology/0,69901-0.html?tw=wn_tophead_4

this is insane. On what basis does any goverment have the right to tell programmers how to make their own software!

professor_chaos
December 23rd, 2005, 04:27 AM
Ohhh Nooo, I feel a riot comming on...

:D :D ;)

BWF89
December 23rd, 2005, 05:29 AM
I'm speechless.

Kurt Dodrill
December 23rd, 2005, 05:34 AM
This is weird speaking that they just legalized music and video downloads for personal use. This whole DRM is stupid. Its only here to try and stem piracy of things like Windows and cds. Microsoft, the MPAA, RIAA seem to be the only big proponents (to protect their investments). Take out the peoples need to buy Windows and want to buy crappy music, and replace it with free, open material and theres no need to implement DRM. I mean piracy and Linux?? But then again, by them implementing DRM, it will only push more people to Linux and free, open material.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 05:40 AM
http://wired.com/news/technology/0,69901-0.html?tw=wn_tophead_4

this is insane. On what basis does any goverment have the right to tell programmers how to make their own software!

No, this is protection frem people trying to steal software, i'm ALL for this.

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 06:01 AM
BSDFreak I have to agree w/ you. I'm a pirating pirate's pirate. However, I know it's stealing and make no bones about it. I pray that software companies and multimedia creationists will figure out a DRM that keeps me honest. I'm sick of the guilt.

Kurt Dodrill
December 23rd, 2005, 06:44 AM
this is the whole point, theres nothing to steal if its all free in the first place.

JimmyJazz
December 23rd, 2005, 10:00 AM
yes but have we not seen the carnage DRM has caused in the past (sony anyone)

pomalin
December 23rd, 2005, 10:07 AM
Here in france we also pay a tax (for artists or there company ?) on the blank cd's and dvd's.

Lod
December 23rd, 2005, 10:25 AM
I'm not against awarding the artists or makers of software for their work. They do something I can't do myself but am profiting from and I will happily pay them for it.
I'm however not that eager to pay to third parties like music stores and so on, nevertheless they have to make their own living as well of course.

The major problem I have with DRM is that companies can decide what I can do with my own paid for stuff. If I bought music I think I should be the one deciding how and where to listen to it.
With or without DRM piracy will go on. The only thing it acclomplish is that more people will go to hacked stuff because those thing are working without all kind of security problems.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 10:43 AM
BSDFreak I have to agree w/ you. I'm a pirating pirate's pirate. However, I know it's stealing and make no bones about it. I pray that software companies and multimedia creationists will figure out a DRM that keeps me honest. I'm sick of the guilt.

Your excuses do not match up with reality, there are alternatives, give me a program and i'll give you a FOSS equivalent, please be specific though.

Except for porn though, pirate porn as much as you want, hurting that part of the industry is only for the greater good.

angkor
December 23rd, 2005, 11:03 AM
Pirate Porn???? You must be really sick, btw where can I get some of that Pirate Porn of yours....;)

angkor
December 23rd, 2005, 11:08 AM
there are alternatives, give me a program and i'll give you a FOSS equivalent, please be specific though.


Trados software aid for translators
http://www.trados.com/products.asp?page=1840

Deja Vu software aid for translators
http://www.atril.com/

soonindallas
December 23rd, 2005, 11:41 AM
http://wired.com/news/technology/0,69901-0.html?tw=wn_tophead_4

this is insane. On what basis does any goverment have the right to tell programmers how to make their own software!

Hmmm. I don't see when this article was written, but the debate in parliament occurred in the night of Wednesday-Thursday this week. The debate resulted in the approval by the assembled members of an ammendment which turns the original "draconian" intention on its head. The proposal is to have ISP's collect, via their broadband access fees, an "optional" flat rate contribution to compensate artists for the now-legal private-use copy and exchange over peer-to-peer networks.

In typical French style, yesterday there was a demonstration of opponents of the ammended draft legislation. These are cinema and recording industry types.

Similarly, as pointed out in another post, today a tax is levied on blank storage media (CD/DVD-R/RW).

The fiasco has the gvt here wondering what to do next. The expectation was that the vote in the middle of the night would go their way. The draft legislation is not yet law: it has to pass the Senate in January, and then be finalised. The gvt has many procedural opportunities to get the legislation back on the track they originally intended.

nocturn
December 23rd, 2005, 11:51 AM
First off, it is a proposal, it hasn't passed yet, and I hope it does not.
Secondly, even if it passes, I doubt it will last very long since France is the only country demanding this. It is highly impractical, so it will result in either a teethless law or it will be reversed soon.

angkor
December 23rd, 2005, 11:53 AM
Hmmm. I don't see when this article was written, but the debate in parliament occurred in the night of Wednesday-Thursday this week. The debate resulted in the approval by the assembled members of an ammendment which turns the original "draconian" intention on its head. The proposal is to have ISP's collect, via their broadband access fees, an "optional" flat rate contribution to compensate artists for the now-legal private-use copy and exchange over peer-to-peer networks.

In typical French style, yesterday there was a demonstration of opponents of the ammended draft legislation. These are cinema and recording industry types.

Similarly, as pointed out in another post, today a tax is levied on blank storage media (CD/DVD-R/RW).

The fiasco has the gvt here wondering what to do next. The expectation was that the vote in the middle of the night would go their way. The draft legislation is not yet law: it has to pass the Senate in January, and then be finalised. The gvt has many procedural opportunities to get the legislation back on the track they originally intended.

Thanx for the extra info.

It sounds just like politics in my country, or any other country for that matter. :)

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 03:27 PM
First off, it is a proposal, it hasn't passed yet, and I hope it does not.
Secondly, even if it passes, I doubt it will last very long since France is the only country demanding this. It is highly impractical, so it will result in either a teethless law or it will be reversed soon.


It's a joke, the EU courts will shoot this one down like a sitting duck.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 03:28 PM
Pirate Porn???? You must be really sick, btw where can I get some of that Pirate Porn of yours....;)

Arrrr i'm going to bleep in your bleep Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 03:47 PM
Your excuses do not match up with reality, there are alternatives, give me a program and i'll give you a FOSS equivalent, please be specific though.

Except for porn though, pirate porn as much as you want, hurting that part of the industry is only for the greater good.

First, I wasn't offering excuses. I admit fully that I steal by using pirated multimedia and software. How is that an excuse?

Second, I feel guilty about it, which isn't an excuse.

Third, I want the software written for MS as nothing FOSS has can touch, for example, Adobe Premiere. Or, what FOSS equivalent is there for Metallic's One, for example?

Fourth, I'm not that enamored of reality.

Fifth, I love porn.

Sixth, I should stop now.

soonindallas
December 23rd, 2005, 04:12 PM
It's a joke, the EU courts will shoot this one down like a sitting duck.

This is in fact the French law that should ensure the transposition of a 2001 European directive.

It is a WIP since before 2003 and it got tacked on to the end of year debate schedule to be discussed by 50 representatives who have nothing better to do in he middle of the night in the week before Christmas.... this was a gvt tactic to get it voted without too much democratic "interference".

Trouble is, for the gvt, defenders of FOSS (political centre) and other anti-big-business activists (political left & far-left) with support from civil libertarians (including from gvt) approved an ammendment that would legalise private use copy and file sharing via peer-to-peer networks *if* this ammendment makes it through the rest of the lawmaking process. This ammendment is completely contrary to the spirit of the initial draft legislation which protected proprietary DRM and severely punished crackers and file sharing.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 04:16 PM
First, I wasn't offering excuses. I admit fully that I steal by using pirated multimedia and software. How is that an excuse?

Second, I feel guilty about it, which isn't an excuse.


To be entirely honest i thought you were being sarcastic, it ticked me off.


Third, I want the software written for MS as nothing FOSS has can touch, for example, Adobe Premiere. Or, what FOSS equivalent is there for Metallic's One, for example?

Fourth, I'm not that enamored of reality.

Fifth, I love porn.

Sixth, I should stop now.

Avidemux will replace adobe premiere any day of the week, you need more, try any of the 121 other replacements out there until you find one that suits your needs. It's ok to pirate Metallica because of their attitude, IMO.

Hehe, but do you love PIRATE PORN? arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

You are quite the cool cat Devils Advocate.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 04:21 PM
This is in fact the French law that should ensure the transposition of a 2001 European directive.

It is a WIP since before 2003 and it got tacked on to the end of year debate schedule to be discussed by 50 representatives who have nothing better to do in he middle of the night in the week before Christmas.... this was a gvt tactic to get it voted without too much democratic "interference".

Trouble is, for the gvt, defenders of FOSS (political centre) and other anti-big-business activists (political left & far-left) with support from civil libertarians (including from gvt) approved an ammendment that would legalise private use copy and file sharing via peer-to-peer networks *if* this ammendment makes it through the rest of the lawmaking process. This ammendment is completely contrary to the spirit of the initial draft legislation which protected proprietary DRM and severely punished crackers and file sharing.

I'll have to admit that i am no expert on EU law, i DO know that private use and file sharing is legal in Sweden and that EU law makes it legal, so i don't really get how France could get away with something that is beyond nation in their local laws.

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 04:58 PM
Avidemux will replace adobe premiere any day of the week, you need more, try any of the 121 other replacements out there until you find one that suits your needs. It's ok to pirate Metallica because of their attitude, IMO.

Wayyyy off topic, but eh? I thought you'ld mention Cinellera. Fact is, video rendering is the only reason I use Windows. Current MJPEGtools in Ubuntu repo's is borked which knocks out quite a few alternatives. I've tried to use an older version from Debian and compile the latest from source. One way or the other, one of my programs gets canned (DVDRIP/Transcode). I went around in circles trying to get this working, now I'm just waiting for Ubuntu to bring their repo's up to date to try again.


Hehe, but do you love PIRATE PORN? arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Porn, always right on topic. Pirate porn, monkey porn, I don't discriminate.


You are quite the cool cat Devils Advocate.

Likewise.

soonindallas
December 23rd, 2005, 05:00 PM
I'll have to admit that i am no expert on EU law, i DO know that private use and file sharing is legal in Sweden and that EU law makes it legal, so i don't really get how France could get away with something that is beyond nation in their local laws.

Private use copying is legal in France for your personal private use. You can copy something you have paid to possess a copy of (book, music, film). Today this excludes file sharing even for the private use of the recipient and commercial use, ie copying for resale.

In practice though no prosecutions have yet been made for music file sharing. Film file sharers have been convicted of copyright violation.

The 2001 directive protects proprietary DRM. Meaning security problems: media companies (eg record labels) could condition your listening to a CD on your loading a (proprietary) piece of sw. That because it's proprietary could have all kinds of nasty side effects (statistics gathering, security weaknesses...) see recent Sony recall.

Also meaning the end of web radio: a risk of concentration of content in channels run by a small number of companies that have critical mass in DRM: Microsoft, Real Networks and the JV with Sony and I forget who...

And as far as this law was concerned (purely French concern) a loss of protection of civil liberties: the authorities could log your internet use for extended periods of time without your knowledge, plus the extention of powers to the administration to issue fines with no judicial oversight regarding the standard of evidence etc.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 05:14 PM
Wayyyy off topic, but eh? I thought you'ld mention Cinellera. Fact is, video rendering is the only reason I use Windows. Current MJPEGtools in Ubuntu repo's is borked which knocks out quite a few alternatives. I've tried to use an older version from Debian and compile the latest from source. One way or the other, one of my programs gets canned (DVDRIP/Transcode). I went around in circles trying to get this working, now I'm just waiting for Ubuntu to bring their repo's up to date to try again.

I know it is borked, its not high priority either so don't expect a quick fix, otoh, if you were to use Slackware you would have a non borked version all the time, even in current, or FreeBSD and use the ports system to find what you are looking for, there are so many programs out there that will replace prmiere, Avidemux is my personal favorite because i can run that in FreeBSD, Slackware and somewhat in Ubuntu (though the stable is borked as you mentioned)




Porn, always right on topic. Pirate porn, monkey porn, I don't discriminate.

DONKEY SHOW! :D

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 05:15 PM
Private use copying is legal in France for your personal private use. You can copy something you have paid to possess a copy of (book, music, film). Today this excludes file sharing even for the private use of the recipient and commercial use, ie copying for resale.

In practice though no prosecutions have yet been made for music file sharing. Film file sharers have been convicted of copyright violation.

The 2001 directive protects proprietary DRM. Meaning security problems: media companies (eg record labels) could condition your listening to a CD on your loading a (proprietary) piece of sw. That because it's proprietary could have all kinds of nasty side effects (statistics gathering, security weaknesses...) see recent Sony recall.

Also meaning the end of web radio: a risk of concentration of content in channels run by a small number of companies that have critical mass in DRM: Microsoft, Real Networks and the JV with Sony and I forget who...

And as far as this law was concerned (purely French concern) a loss of protection of civil liberties: the authorities could log your internet use for extended periods of time without your knowledge, plus the extention of powers to the administration to issue fines with no judicial oversight regarding the standard of evidence etc.

Good for France that it won't pass then.

Thank you for enlightening me on the subject.

jc87
December 23rd, 2005, 06:20 PM
DRM is a ideia,

Invented by a moron ,

Who sold it to a bunch fat cats ,

Who are afraid of loosing their huge annual profits ,

Because with the internet soon they will no longer be needed ,

Because artists will be able to sell and promote themselves due to this new media sharing way ,

And so media such as music will be cheaper because we no longer will need the greedy midle-man who takes 90% of the cost to himself ,

And people will also be able to hear the whole music before buying it ,

So it will be the end of crappy bands who have one or two decent songs and the rest is not worth the cd where is burned.

By the way , if the government cant enter in my house and start searching for illegal stuff without a court order , or have cameras on it , or force me to make a log of the hours i´m in or out , who the **** says that DRM can legally do that?

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 06:53 PM
By the way , if the government cant enter in my house and start searching for illegal stuff without a court order , or have cameras on it , or force me to make a log of the hours i´m in or out , who the **** says that DRM can legally do that?

You do when you buy it. It's a choice that you make, no-one can force you to buy it.

BTW, I'm going to start stealing cars. And you'ld defend me, right? After all, the creative work of the engineers and the designers should be freely distributable to all. Why should those fat-cats who own the company get all the profits.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 07:01 PM
DRM is a ideia,

Invented by a moron ,

Who sold it to a bunch fat cats ,

Who are afraid of loosing their huge annual profits ,

Because with the internet soon they will no longer be needed ,

Because artists will be able to sell and promote themselves due to this new media sharing way ,

And so media such as music will be cheaper because we no longer will need the greedy midle-man who takes 90% of the cost to himself ,

And people will also be able to hear the whole music before buying it ,

So it will be the end of crappy bands who have one or two decent songs and the rest is not worth the cd where is burned.

By the way , if the government cant enter in my house and start searching for illegal stuff without a court order , or have cameras on it , or force me to make a log of the hours i´m in or out , who the **** says that DRM can legally do that?

If you are in sweden your IP cannot be logged as it's considered personal information, if you are in the US, they can search your house without a warrant thses days.

the US caters to the monopolies and think that makes them more capitalistic, the truth is that even the US is a sociocapitalist country (most capitalist in the world is some asian country, the US is behind Sweden on that list of capitalist countries).

The truth is that with pure capitalism, MS would find NO resistance at all, since there is no regulation in pure capitalism, it ends up being a company deciding or government deciding or somewhere in between, that somewhere in between is where we are today, lets not **** it up too much.

xequence
December 23rd, 2005, 07:42 PM
Here in france we also pay a tax (for artists or there company ?) on the blank cd's and dvd's.

Same in Canada.


BSDFreak I have to agree w/ you. I'm a pirating pirate's pirate. However, I know it's stealing and make no bones about it. I pray that software companies and multimedia creationists will figure out a DRM that keeps me honest. I'm sick of the guilt.

Everyone here knows I pirate stuff, and I have no guilt. There is no way I would ever consider buying all the stuff I pirate. (Only the music I might consider buying, if they had reasonable prices.)

For all I am concerned, all it is is just me getting a product I wouldent otherwise get. If I pirate it or not the company is getting no money from me.

DRM is bad. It has no/very little affect on the pirates whatsoever. There will always be a crack for it, infact I am sure there is right now a crack to turn DRMed iTunes bought music into normal AAC. It isnt public or anything, it is probably a closely guarded secret of the scene, but there has to be.

In the end DRM is hurting no one, except the person who buys the song from iTunes and realises they cant listen to it on their pocket PC pda.

jc87
December 23rd, 2005, 08:24 PM
You do when you buy it. It's a choice that you make, no-one can force you to buy it.

BTW, I'm going to start stealing cars. And you'ld defend me, right? After all, the creative work of the engineers and the designers should be freely distributable to all. Why should those fat-cats who own the company get all the profits.

1)I had a subject at highschool last year , called introduction to law , and in that subject one of the things i learned was that consumer rights were "stronger" than contracts , so what the government should do is enforce and improve my consumer right´s , at that includes things like making legall backups for personnal use and not being spyed by things i purchased .

2)You missunderstood me , what i mean to say was that labels are becoming obsolete , in the future they will no longer be needed , and that is one of the reasons why they are trying so hard to force us to use DRM.

Economy is not static , it changes over the time , we passed from systems such as slavery , feudalism , etc... to the current capitalist , some of the old ways of commerce no longer work , but labels are trying to push us to keep using the old ones because benefit them , they are no diferent from slaves owners in abolicionous wars.

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 08:37 PM
1)I had a subject at highschool last year , called introduction to law , and in that subject one of the things i learned was that consumer rights were "stronger" than contracts , so what the government should do is enforce and improve my consumer right´s , at that includes things like making legall backups for personnal use and not being spyed by things i purchased .

You're equivocating on the use of "consumer rights." The "consumer rights" that you are referring to regard the safety and usability of the product (i.e., no lemons and it won't kill you), whereas you are using consumer rights to mean that you (as the consumer) should dictate to the producer the terms of the contract. That would not be trade but slavery (communism). Besides, the interpretation of law is a politco-philosophical endeavor and, therefore, has no inherent basis in reality; i.e., a different nation may have a completely different interpretation.


2)You missunderstood me , what i mean to say was that labels are becoming obsolete , in the future they will no longer be needed , and that is one of the reasons why they are trying so hard to force us to use DRM.

Of course, the product will soon be completely digital. That doesn't mean that the producers should get screwed by the new mechanism of trade.


Economy is not static , it changes over the time , we passed from systems such as slavery , feudalism , etc... to the current capitalist , some of the old ways of commerce no longer work , but labels are trying to push us to keep using the old ones because benefit them , they are no diferent from slaves owners in abolicionous wars.

I agree but the changes in the past had some basis in a reasoned forward-looking approach (often by minority groups/revolutionaries). I also agree that our current economic system is going to undergo a fundamental change, but I do think there are better alternatives than the anarchic one anti-patent people propose.

Slave owners maintained slavery by force. Record companies use your own inherent desire to coerce you to buy their product or "keep you in chains." No one will hang you from a tree if you don't buy their record. What you should preach is what the Buddha taught, to quelch your desire and then you'll be free. They will always try to enslave you by your desires.

ПОПТОНЖ
December 23rd, 2005, 08:47 PM
If you create a culture that respects the work of no one and do it in the name of those evil and greedy corporations, what happens when the evil and greedy corporations are no more? When the internet is full of recording artists and everyone is crowding around the myspace pages of a select few fashionably popular artists, then who do you blame? The artists who become popular because they had the wisdom to pay a good publicity manager? What about the unpopular artists you never support either?

DRM is not a barrier to those who truly value and respect freedom because we are free to not support the creators of DRM protected content with our money or attention. Making things free does not mean making them easy to "steal." I think the French law goes way beyond what it should, but I also hope the megapublishers DO manage to come up with a platform and a system that affords them robust DRM. When everyone is forced to live by their terms or do without Britney and Shania the "alternative market" will be better able to compete.

BTW in the US "they" have always been able to search your house without a warrant: if the police stand at your front door and see a pile of crack on your coffee table they have reasonable cause to search your premises right there on the spot and get a warrant later - it's been this way for decades now. The difference is now they seem to have been doing it without ever getting a warrant and keeping the entire process "secret." That's an entirely different precedent and one that came about thanks to a spineless post-911 Congress and Senate as much as a truly "evil" Whitehouse.

angkor
December 23rd, 2005, 09:46 PM
there are alternatives, give me a program and i'll give you a FOSS equivalent, please be specific though.


Trados software aid for translators
http://www.trados.com/products.asp?page=1840

Deja Vu software aid for translators
http://www.atril.com/


Still waiting impatiently, or wasn't I being specific enough? ;)

commodore
December 23rd, 2005, 11:12 PM
What is DRM?

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 11:15 PM
Digital Rights Management. You weren't kidding were you?

GreyFox503
December 23rd, 2005, 11:25 PM
More info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Rights_Management

commodore
December 24th, 2005, 01:11 PM
I wasn't kidding. How was I supposed to know that?

BSDFreak
December 25th, 2005, 08:47 PM
You're equivocating on the use of "consumer rights." The "consumer rights" that you are referring to regard the safety and usability of the product (i.e., no lemons and it won't kill you), whereas you are using consumer rights to mean that you (as the consumer) should dictate to the producer the terms of the contract. That would not be trade but slavery (communism). Besides, the interpretation of law is a politco-philosophical endeavor and, therefore, has no inherent basis in reality; i.e., a different nation may have a completely different interpretation.



Of course, the product will soon be completely digital. That doesn't mean that the producers should get screwed by the new mechanism of trade.



I agree but the changes in the past had some basis in a reasoned forward-looking approach (often by minority groups/revolutionaries). I also agree that our current economic system is going to undergo a fundamental change, but I do think there are better alternatives than the anarchic one anti-patent people propose.

Slave owners maintained slavery by force. Record companies use your own inherent desire to coerce you to buy their product or "keep you in chains." No one will hang you from a tree if you don't buy their record. What you should preach is what the Buddha taught, to quelch your desire and then you'll be free. They will always try to enslave you by your desires.

You're a smart motherfscker Devils...

Stick around, your knowledge is both wanted and needed around here...

Oh, and merry christmas!

awakatanka
December 25th, 2005, 09:21 PM
What DRM system they gonna use? must the others pay that DRM standaard to use it? Will it be hardware our software solution?

How can they enforce something when there is in the world no standaard? No company want to make different versions of there product to support every DRM system.

http://www.fsf.org/news/dadvsi-letter.html and send a letter to the french goverment to protest against it.