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View Full Version : Microsoft may face 2 million euros DAILY fine for violating EU law



chimera
December 22nd, 2005, 04:39 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4552214.stm

OWNED8)

GoldBuggie
December 22nd, 2005, 04:48 PM
This is in fact a very good thing for the other OS community since a problem when migrating to another OS is that lack of good support for windows specific files etc. So this will benefit linux in that the support for windows can be better achieved.

bored2k
December 22nd, 2005, 04:54 PM
I hope they get their problems resolved asap.

Enter
December 22nd, 2005, 05:01 PM
hahaha
itll be funny if M$ desides to close its market in EU because its too costly for them

bored2k
December 22nd, 2005, 05:04 PM
Funny? Not really. More like, sad. The less money they get, the less donations they give.

Knomefan
December 22nd, 2005, 05:11 PM
Fascinating.

That they go to such a great length to not disclose their documentation in a way that woul enable competitors to compete on a level playing field just shows that abusing their monopoly really is at the very heart of MS bussiness model.

Malphas
December 22nd, 2005, 06:16 PM
Funny? Not really. More like, sad. The less money they get, the less donations they give.
Bill Gates and Microsoft aren't the same entity.

prizrak
December 22nd, 2005, 06:28 PM
Bill Gates and Microsoft aren't the same entity.
Many people seem to make that mistake.

On topic:
That is great, either way it goes we win. If MS withdraws from EU (unlikely) Linux will be the OS they turn to forcing many developers to create at the very least ports. If they open up the API's then those who still have to use Windows only software can switch to Linux painlessly.

Gurgeh
December 22nd, 2005, 06:33 PM
Man, I really dispise being 'confined' in your choice of systems but thats a little harsh.

I mean, altho they have a 'monopoly' on the operating system market a standard does need to be there for the person that hasn't got 8 hours a day to hack away a graphics or compatibilty issue.

From what i've read its just an excuse for the EU to milk money off a big company, which suffice to say, is pretty ******. Also what exactly are they being fined for? It seems to me the EU has got the wrong end of the stick, 3 perfectly good alternatives are not going to be born overnight so the're not even addressing the issue.

Ridiculous, hate and pursecute microsoft for their lack of vision but at the very least respect what they've acheived.

Knomefan
December 22nd, 2005, 06:55 PM
@Gurgeh:
Ehm, they are illegaly abusing their monopoly by not documenting their protocols so that competitors can use them.

This is _illegal_.

To remedy this situation the EU commision found they had to provide this documentation, which they don't, thus they are continously breaking the law.

Now, what is the EU supposed to do in this situation?

Enter
December 22nd, 2005, 06:58 PM
Funny? Not really. More like, sad. The less money they get, the less donations they give.
may i ask to whom do they donate?

Artificial Intelligence
December 22nd, 2005, 06:59 PM
I think it's cool that EU are doing something about it. To many places it's seen if you have money enough you can bend the rules.

angkor
December 22nd, 2005, 06:59 PM
From what i've read its just an excuse for the EU to milk money off a big company, which suffice to say, is pretty ******. Also what exactly are they being fined for? It seems to me the EU has got the wrong end of the stick, 3 perfectly good alternatives are not going to be born overnight so the're not even addressing the issue.

And from what I see, the EU regards MS as a company exploiting their monopoly to make it more difficult (or impossible) for rival software companies to compete with them. ****** or not, MS is breaking EU laws which consider competition more important than 'intellectual property rights'. IMHO correctly so.

All the EU demands from MS is to "provide improved documentation" and to "supply adequate information about its server programs". I don't think that's too much to ask.

BSDFreak
December 22nd, 2005, 08:40 PM
As much as i really hate the EU they do some things right sometimes.

akurashy
December 22nd, 2005, 10:55 PM
Well I think M$ going to pay them eeep

BWF89
December 22nd, 2005, 11:49 PM
Richard Stallman said something to the likes of "Back in the 70's companies would give you a manual with all the technical specifications of the system you bought. Now certain companies, especially one I like to refer to as Nvidious makes you sign a non disclosure agreement inorder to get technical details on how their hardware works".

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 01:16 AM
Richard Stallman said something to the likes of "Back in the 70's companies would give you a manual with all the technical specifications of the system you bought. Now certain companies, especially one I like to refer to as Nvidious makes you sign a non disclosure agreement inorder to get technical details on how their hardware works".

And he was still wrong, at no point in time has ANY company that has a unique technology given up their specs for free.

Sounds like Stallman, picking points on an issue even though he probably knows he's wrong, he should run for office.

oh wait....

sethmahoney
December 23rd, 2005, 01:23 AM
And he was still wrong, at no point in time has ANY company that has a unique technology given up their specs for free.

I highly doubt that statement is true. But, true or not, it certainly doesn't imply that no company should, or should be compelled to in certain circumstances, give up specs for free.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 01:26 AM
I highly doubt that statement is true. But, true or not, it certainly doesn't imply that no company should, or should be compelled to in certain circumstances, give up specs for free.

How about... NO!

sethmahoney
December 23rd, 2005, 01:37 AM
How about... NO!

No what?

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 01:39 AM
No what?

No they shouldn't, nor should they be compelled to.

This is about choice, as soon as you bring force into the picture the ideology of it begins to resemble the Soviet Union.

sethmahoney
December 23rd, 2005, 01:44 AM
No they shouldn't, nor should they be compelled to.

This is about choice, as soon as you bring force into the picture the ideology of it begins to resemble the Soviet Union.

Murdering someone is about choice, too - I have a choice whether or not I am going to go out and kill someone today. If I do, I would say that it would be justifiable to throw me in prison. Now, Microsoft seems to be violating some laws here, as they have in the past, and it seems justifiable to attempt to force them to comply with those laws, just like it would be justifiable for others, were I so inclined, to attempt to force me to comply with laws against murdering people.

Now, if you have reasons why laws Microsoft has broken are unfair, or are attempting to say that Microsoft has violated no laws, that's fine, but making a blanket comparison of the EU to Soviet Russia isn't the same as explaining your case.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 02:41 AM
Murdering someone is about choice, too - I have a choice whether or not I am going to go out and kill someone today. If I do, I would say that it would be justifiable to throw me in prison. Now, Microsoft seems to be violating some laws here, as they have in the past, and it seems justifiable to attempt to force them to comply with those laws, just like it would be justifiable for others, were I so inclined, to attempt to force me to comply with laws against murdering people.

Now, if you have reasons why laws Microsoft has broken are unfair, or are attempting to say that Microsoft has violated no laws, that's fine, but making a blanket comparison of the EU to Soviet Russia isn't the same as explaining your case.

1. You are comparing Murder to percieved violations of law by Microsoft
2. You are a complete and utter idiot.
3. I NEVER compared the EU to Soviet Union, i compared your wish to force compliance to the Soviet Union and for a very good reason.

If you can't debate without putting words in my mouth i think we are done here.

bored2k
December 23rd, 2005, 04:23 AM
Bill Gates and Microsoft aren't the same entity.
His money doesn't fall off a tree.

bored2k
December 23rd, 2005, 04:25 AM
may i ask to whom do they donate?
Since 2000, Gates's wealth has declined due to a fall in Microsoft's share price and the multi-billion dollar donations he has made to his charitable foundations. According to a 2004 Forbes magazine article, Gates gave away over $28 billion to charities from 2000 onwards. To whom? you have google. And before someone starts the hating with a "he does that to cover __whatever__", you know what ? the people who benefit from his donations don't give a squat about why he does it, they just want him to do it. Can anyone "Linux" do it better? Maybe, but one thing's certain: actions speak louder than zealous words.

BWF89
December 23rd, 2005, 05:30 AM
2 million euros a day is a drop in the bucket for a company like MS.

awakatanka
December 23rd, 2005, 07:09 AM
No they shouldn't, nor should they be compelled to.

This is about choice, as soon as you bring force into the picture the ideology of it begins to resemble the Soviet Union.
hehe you a funny guy. You probably don't follow the laws in youre country.

Everybody has to follow the law our they have to choose to not live there our not to bring out products that are not compleing the law.

None is forcing they just have to follow the law.

bored2k
December 23rd, 2005, 07:12 AM
2 million euros a day is a drop in the bucket for a company like MS.
Microsoft or not, 730 million euros a year is a lot.

prizrak
December 23rd, 2005, 07:28 AM
I think the issue here is that MS deliberately makes their systems incompatible with anything else. If that is the case then they are violating anti-trust laws and has to be punished. If they were to stop creating their own "extensions" to open formats EU and Korea would stop suing them. Hell even the US found them guilty and fined them.
Bored2K, don't worry about Gates, his money doesn't come exclusively from MS. He has a very diverse portfolio as well as best financial analysts money can buy. Not to mention that he himself is a very good businessman. If MS's profit and market share start to decline noticeably he will move his money into other industries/companies.

senectus
December 23rd, 2005, 07:59 AM
To whom? you have google. And before someone starts the hating with a "he does that to cover __whatever__", you know what ? the people who benefit from his donations don't give a squat about why he does it, they just want him to do it. Can anyone "Linux" do it better? Maybe, but one thing's certain: actions speak louder than zealous words.

Arguably I'd would say that the entire Open Source Movement is worth a great deal more than 28 Billion, and because of it's "openness" is going to continue being worth more in charity than that for a long time into the future.

Don't get me wrong though, 28 Bill from the gates foundation is a damned impressive record and should be congratulated.
It's just a pity it's done at the cost of a great a great deal more...

bored2k
December 23rd, 2005, 08:04 AM
Arguably I'd would say that the entire Open Source Movement is worth a great deal more than 28 Billion, and because of it's "openness" is going to continue being worth more in charity than that for a long time into the future.

Don't get me wrong though, 28 Bill from the gates foundation is a damned impressive record and should be congratulated.
It's just a pity it's done at the cost of a great a great deal more...
Open Source Movement is better than feeding millions of helpless children and people in need of medication from all over the world? Where are your f... err, right, I'm staff.



*Uzza*

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 08:18 AM
hehe you a funny guy. You probably don't follow the laws in youre country.[/QOUTE]

Of course i do, i'm a law abiding citizen, i also sing hannukah songs and help animals on my free time.

[QUOTE]Everybody has to follow the law our they have to choose to not live there our not to bring out products that are not compleing the law.

Whoa, i'm so glad you told me that, i had NO idea, EVERYONE has to follow the law you say? even me, can't i just donate something to somone if i drive over someone when i am having fun with my sports car and very drunk?

Although, compleing the law? I don't know what that means, is that something i should worry about?


None is forcing they just have to follow the law.

What law?

senectus
December 23rd, 2005, 08:44 AM
Open Source Movement is better than feeding millions of helpless children and people in need of medication from all over the world? Where are your f... err, right, I'm staff.



*Uzza*

:-) think larger scale, out side of short term relief...
the same concept of : "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life."
applies here.

As I said before, the money that he has given is a good thing. But in the long run I think OSS is going to be more valuable and better for the world as a whole.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 08:55 AM
:-) think larger scale, out side of short term relief...
the same concept of : "Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life."
applies here.

It's a nice saying, it's also completely irrelevant unless you are saying that the starving are just to stupid to get their own food.


As I said before, the money that he has given is a good thing. But in the long run I think OSS is going to be more valuable and better for the world as a whole.

You are going to have to let us in on the specifics on how that would work.

nocturn
December 23rd, 2005, 09:28 AM
Man, I really dispise being 'confined' in your choice of systems but thats a little harsh.

I mean, altho they have a 'monopoly' on the operating system market a standard does need to be there for the person that hasn't got 8 hours a day to hack away a graphics or compatibilty issue.


The OS monoculture is costing a lot of people money, it is the main reason that viruses/spyware have such a big impact.
Secondly, if HW vendors would open up their specs, writing drivers for Linux would be dead-easy, and you would not be hacking 8 hours a day on compatibility issues.

I yesterday installed the first Linux laptop our store will be selling, and *everything* except the cardreader is working out of the box, including wireless and hibernating. This shows that sticking to standards makes Linux easier to install then Windows is.



From what i've read its just an excuse for the EU to milk money off a big company, which suffice to say, is pretty ******. Also what exactly are they being fined for? It seems to me the EU has got the wrong end of the stick, 3 perfectly good alternatives are not going to be born overnight so the're not even addressing the issue.

Ridiculous, hate and pursecute microsoft for their lack of vision but at the very least respect what they've acheived.

Microsoft *choses* to sell their stuff on foreign markets like the EU. These markets have rules and laws that differ from the US ones, and in this case they clearly violoated those laws. That is what they are being fined for, which is no more or less what any other would get for such large-scale violations.

Microsoft is being fined for locking out competitors such as realplayer and other out of their products by closing the interfaces. Therefor they were forced to unbundle mediaplayer and to provide access to their API's, including their groupware suite (Exchange).

Most EU countries have laws against bundling products together or locking competition out, many companies have been forced to change their policies because of this, I see no reason why MS should be any different.

And, if they do not like EU rules and laws, they can always choose not to sell here.

nocturn
December 23rd, 2005, 09:32 AM
And he was still wrong, at no point in time has ANY company that has a unique technology given up their specs for free.


Publishing specifications does not void your copyright/ownership of them. But it would ensure that people could create drivers/software that works with your hardware product.

nocturn
December 23rd, 2005, 09:37 AM
hehe you a funny guy. You probably don't follow the laws in youre country.

Everybody has to follow the law our they have to choose to not live there our not to bring out products that are not compleing the law.

None is forcing they just have to follow the law.

Exactly!

If they do not like the more social laws in part of the world, they are free not to sell there (/me starts dreaming...)

nocturn
December 23rd, 2005, 09:49 AM
Open Source Movement is better than feeding millions of helpless children and people in need of medication from all over the world? Where are your f... err, right, I'm staff.


Not meant to offend, but
1# I question the motives behind giving out that money
2# Giving money to third-world countries while on the other hand extorting money from their governments for your products and using cheap labor from such countries is morally very dubious.

The third-world does not need 'charity'. It needs for the abuse from capitalist countries to stop, it needs for its debts to be cleared and it needs equal access to technology, which is an important thing that Free Software does provide.

If this could be done, poverty coud be eliminated in less then 2 generations, but it requires that we start re-thinking the way we live our lives.

angkor
December 23rd, 2005, 10:31 AM
can't i just donate something to somone if i drive over someone when i am having fun with my sports car and very drunk?


Well, I don't know where you're located but that sure isn't possible where I live, you'd be going to jail no matter what you paid.


As much as i really hate the EU they do some things right sometimes.


they be compelled to.

This is about choice, as soon as you bring force into the picture the ideology of it begins to resemble the Soviet Union.[

:confused: Now what is it? Is the EU doing something right by compelling MS to abide by the law or does the EU resemble the USSR for trying to force a legitimate law-abiding company to pay a fine for no particular reason?


Funny? Not really. More like, sad. The less money they get, the less donations they give.

Sure that'll be sad. But giving donations does not exlude one from abiding by the law in the country where you live / do business.

It's not like MS didn't have any time complying with this law, the EU first brought it up in march 2004 without threatening with a fine. If Microsoft loose business because rival companies could make better products because of this, one could argue that those companies will have more money to spend on charity, a little less from MS, a little more from others.

awakatanka
December 23rd, 2005, 11:05 AM
Of course i do, i'm a law abiding citizen, i also sing hannukah songs and help animals on my free time.



Whoa, i'm so glad you told me that, i had NO idea, EVERYONE has to follow the law you say? even me, can't i just donate something to somone if i drive over someone when i am having fun with my sports car and very drunk?

Although, compleing the law? I don't know what that means, is that something i should worry about?



What law?Hehe still funny our anarchist.Try to google on european laws and try to learn something the country's in the EU have made treatys that people/companys have to follow None is above the law also not if they are donating miljoens ,billjoens. What is keeping 3th world countrys in poverty is that western country give farmers and other parts subsidy so a 3th world country can't compite to them and there for can't sell there products. We as western country are moving our companys to 3th world country so we have cheap labor and can make big profits. We have in the past stole there natural resources ( oil ,diamands and other things ) and are the big owners of it now. If that would change then donations are not needed.

Court has decided that they have to follow the law our pay, as simple as that.

And english is not my native langauge so yes i can write somethings in the wrong way, its weak to attack someone on it.

Gurgeh
December 23rd, 2005, 11:15 AM
As much as i really hate the EU they do some things right sometimes.

As much as I hate america i'm forced to eat their **** and watch the terror as they parade accross the world leaving a path of desecration in the name of liberty... so erm why do u hate the EU? Is it because:

- We embark on global conquests for seeming world domination? I think not.
- We actively disrupt and destroy the already tattered lives of others in the name of emancipation? (and drag our allies through the **** with us) I think not
- We make large scale, high risk plans that we can barely uphold? I think not
- We wallow in the destitution of federal corruption? (that will never be rooted out for the sheer size of it) I think not

So if by hating the EU u mean, I hate the way they squabble as they slowly team up to try and stop the army of raving nutcases that seem to have gone on a stampeed. Then I say, I would 2 if I were u.

But saying that u make cool clothes, u make cool hardware and generally create some cool things, so lets not blame a country for its government ay?

But erm yeah anyways, microsoft...

PLEASE NOTE: This is a generic statement issued by a citizen of the United Kingdom, it does not in any way offically reflect the opinions of the citizens of the United Kingdom and should not be treated as such. Any external quotation should take note of this point and also take care of the informal context of which the statement is made.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 03:51 PM
As much as I hate america i'm forced to eat their **** and watch the terror as they parade accross the world leaving a path of desecration in the name of liberty... so erm why do u hate the EU? Is it because:

- We embark on global conquests for seeming world domination? I think not.
- We actively disrupt and destroy the already tattered lives of others in the name of emancipation? (and drag our allies through the **** with us) I think not
- We make large scale, high risk plans that we can barely uphold? I think not
- We wallow in the destitution of federal corruption? (that will never be rooted out for the sheer size of it) I think not

So if by hating the EU u mean, I hate the way they squabble as they slowly team up to try and stop the army of raving nutcases that seem to have gone on a stampeed. Then I say, I would 2 if I were u.

But saying that u make cool clothes, u make cool hardware and generally create some cool things, so lets not blame a country for its government ay?

But erm yeah anyways, microsoft...

Um, just so you know, i'm Swedish and my reason for hating the EU is that Sweden pays MORE than ANY other country while not being the richest county.

EU sucks because it's a collection of idiot politicians that have majority because of their size and ONLY cater to their own countries, THAT is why i hate the EU, because it SUCKS for the smaller nations, i am actually looking for a chance to move to Norway so this stupid crap won't affect me.

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 03:54 PM
As much as I hate america i'm forced to eat their **** and watch the terror as they parade accross the world leaving a path of desecration in the name of liberty... so erm why do u hate the EU? Is it because:

- We embark on global conquests for seeming world domination? I think not.
- We actively disrupt and destroy the already tattered lives of others in the name of emancipation? (and drag our allies through the **** with us) I think not
- We make large scale, high risk plans that we can barely uphold? I think not
- We wallow in the destitution of federal corruption? (that will never be rooted out for the sheer size of it) I think not

So if by hating the EU u mean, I hate the way they squabble as they slowly team up to try and stop the army of raving nutcases that seem to have gone on a stampeed. Then I say, I would 2 if I were u.

But saying that u make cool clothes, u make cool hardware and generally create some cool things, so lets not blame a country for its government ay?

But erm yeah anyways, microsoft...

A good reason to hate the EU, besides the fact that it's European, is that it's trying to BE LIKE the US.

nocturn
December 23rd, 2005, 03:57 PM
Let's keep this thread on topic, this is not the place for a flamewar.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 03:59 PM
Hehe still funny our anarchist.Try to google on european laws and try to learn something the country's in the EU have made treatys that people/companys have to follow None is above the law also not if they are donating miljoens ,billjoens. What is keeping 3th world countrys in poverty is that western country give farmers and other parts subsidy so a 3th world country can't compite to them and there for can't sell there products. We as western country are moving our companys to 3th world country so we have cheap labor and can make big profits. We have in the past stole there natural resources ( oil ,diamands and other things ) and are the big owners of it now. If that would change then donations are not needed.

Court has decided that they have to follow the law our pay, as simple as that.

And english is not my native langauge so yes i can write somethings in the wrong way, its weak to attack someone on it.

First of all, i do deal with EU law daily.

Second, English is my fifth language and i do make loads of spelling mistakes, i really didn't understand it so i asked, is that something i shouldn't do?

Gurgeh
December 23rd, 2005, 03:59 PM
Um, just so you know, i'm Swedish and my reason for hating the EU is that Sweden pays MORE than ANY other country while not being the richest county.

EU sucks because it's a collection of idiot politicians that have majority because of their size and ONLY cater to their own countries, THAT is why i hate the EU, because it SUCKS for the smaller nations, i am actually looking for a chance to move to Norway so this stupid crap won't affect me.


Quality lol, In which case I apologise. We seem to have fended off the EU quite well, haven't really bothered to fill my head with its flaws as international politics are about as random as teenage relationships.

I do like the idea of it but as you say, it seems to be riddled with beaurocary and corruption (word of the day that) and I had no idea it would affect your life so directly.

Still tho I do not like americas approach to life on earth but I made an assumption there mate and I am sorry for it. I wish you the best of luck if you do move and will endeavour to 'get my facts' right in future postings.

And thankyou DevilsAdovocate, that was most fulfilling and definately to be taken into account so i'll put that comment down to 'Divine american ignorance' and bow to your superiority ;)

My apologies to Nocture for causing a ruckus. There will be no further posts from me of this nature.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 04:05 PM
Quality lol, In which case I apologise. We seem to have fended off the EU quite well, haven't really bothered to fill my head with its flaws as international politics are about as random as teenage relationships.

I do like the idea of it but as you say, it seems to be riddled with beaurocary and corruption (word of the day that) and I had no idea it would affect your life so directly.

Still tho I do not like americas approach to life on earth but I made an assumption there mate and I am sorry for it. I wish you the best of luck if you do move and will endeavour to 'get my facts' right in future postings.

Delils advocate nailed it "A good reason to hate the EU, besides the fact that it's European, is that it's trying to BE LIKE the US.".

Adding an extra-national set of rules for business makes it HARDER to do business since you have to cater to both national govenmet and to the EU, IOW, you'll have to pay off twice as many people.

Gurgeh
December 23rd, 2005, 04:24 PM
Hmmmm, can see where ur coming from but I doubt thats what he meant (and if it was, u coulda been a bit more precise)

Count me out of this conversation anyways, i'm finding it hard to talk business bollotics when all I think of when I hear 'America' is unnessecary suffering (and that is coming from a British soldier.)

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 04:28 PM
Hmmmm, can see where ur coming from but I doubt thats what he meant (and if it was, u coulda put it a better way)

Count me out of this conversation anyways, i'm finding it hard to talk business bollotics when all I think of when I hear 'America' is unnessecary suffering (and that is coming from a British soldier.)

That is a whole different set of politics, FWIW i am going to Afghanistan in February so i do sympathize i just don't blame it all on the US and neither should you unless you think the EU is US's puppets.

Gurgeh
December 23rd, 2005, 04:45 PM
I think the EU doesn't have much choice. I'm sat in england in front of a desk thats been made by america, in front of an IBM PC, american software and i'm wearing american clothes even lol even my testicles are held snuggly in place by american underwear.

What i'm trying to say is, everyone owes something to america and if they don't, they rely on someone that does, so they can pretty much do what they like and all we can do is look as if we're trying to talk sense to them.

The hilarious (and slighty sad) thing is: Not even the might of the citizens of America can stop their own machine.

Now, on the subject of global corporate domination did u know that Microsoft may face 2 million euros DAILY fine for violating EU law? (lol)

Kimm
December 23rd, 2005, 04:53 PM
Um, just so you know, i'm Swedish and my reason for hating the EU is that Sweden pays MORE than ANY other country while not being the richest county.

EU sucks because it's a collection of idiot politicians that have majority because of their size and ONLY cater to their own countries, THAT is why i hate the EU, because it SUCKS for the smaller nations, i am actually looking for a chance to move to Norway so this stupid crap won't affect me.

I'm swedish and I Love the EU because they acctually make politics fair. Swedish politics isnt allways exactly fair and I'm happy that we atleast have something to else to make it better. Lets take the Software patents for example, if sweden was not part of the EU and the vote had taken place localy, then, no mather how much the people screamed, we Would Have Software Patents in Sweden!

I have nothing against the EU, I love the EU, Sweden is what I dont exactly love, thats why I plan on moving to England.

Gurgeh
December 23rd, 2005, 04:57 PM
Yay come to England, we're very expensive, but we'll love you ;)

Where u moving too? If your moving to Birmingham let me know, could always use another ubuntu geek to bash heads with.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 05:03 PM
I'm swedish and I Love the EU because they acctually make politics fair. Swedish politics isnt allways exactly fair and I'm happy that we atleast have something to else to make it better. Lets take the Software patents for example, if sweden was not part of the EU and the vote had taken place localy, then, no mather how much the people screamed, we Would Have Software Patents in Sweden!

I have nothing against the EU, I love the EU, Sweden is what I dont exactly love, thats why I plan on moving to England.

What really amuses me is that people love the EU for all the wrong reasons.

Indeed, lets take the Software patents, name ONE thing that is less restictive according to EU law than in Swedish law, there is not ONE, now turn that around because there is NO nation in the EU with as lax laws on the matter as Sweden.

You do realize that you are paying farmers in France who do NOT adhere to Swedens strict laws regarding meat or poultry production? Do you think it's great that while we are making laws that restrict our own farmers we give money to other countries farmers who do not have to adhere to that law. Do you think it is funny to have 60% taxes that pay for things like the EU parliment where politicians can be corrupt and non-touchable, if they leave they keep their pay.

The EU COULD have been a great thing, as it is, it's basically a retirement home for buned out politicians and an organization that caters to Germany and France while countries like Sweden get to foot the bill.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 05:06 PM
Yay come to England, we're very expensive, but we'll love you ;)

Where u moving too? If your moving to Birmingham let me know, could always use another ubuntu geek to bash heads with.

I'm kinda surprised that so many Brittish people dislike the EU (last polls i saw was 65% being against the EU) when you get rebate because of something that is 20 years old and get more money than you recieve.

Gurgeh
December 23rd, 2005, 05:19 PM
Its because we'd have a lot to lose. We're a proud and arrogant nation with lots of tradition and history. The thought of merging into a gang of nations (in various states with various backgrounds) scares some people, saying that, the thought of losing the Pound scares me

PLEASE NOTE: This is a generic statement issued by a citizen of the United Kingdom, it does not in any way offically reflect the opinions of the citizens of the United Kingdom and should not be treated as such. Any external quotation should take note of this point and also take care of the informal context of which the statement is made.

lol

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 05:27 PM
Its because we'd have a lot to lose. We're a proud and arrogant nation with lots of tradition and history. The thought of merging into a gang of nations (in various states with various backgrounds) scares some people, saying that, the thought of losing the Pound scares me

PLEASE NOTE: This is a generic statement issued by a citizen of the United Kingdom, it does not in any way offically reflect the opinions of the citizens of United Kingdom and should not be treated as such. Any external quotation should take note of this point and also take care of the informal context that this statement is made.

lol

Oh the old proud viking nations have the same attitude, once upon a time Sweden WAS europe, in later days the colonies of England were so widespread that it was hard to distinguish between territories.

Yah, the monetary union, it's kinda sad because Sweden and GB have stayed out of it while it HAS been a great currency compared to either your pound or our Kronor.

Heh, i guess we'll be stupid about that too and adopt it when it's on it's way down... Swedish politicians, i mean really, you think yours are bad, you have NOTHING to complain about if you were to compare them.

It reflects the opinion of ONE citizen and since you are that citizen that i'm discussing this with, that's good enough for me.

Gurgeh
December 23rd, 2005, 05:40 PM
Touching comment, don't quite know what to say. I would say that you could not possibly compare the Pound to the Euro but I won't. Instead I will virtually embrace you with passionate grace and proclaim: "Hurrah for Europe"

Our politicians spend a lot of time actually getting things done nowadays, trouble is, they do the wrong things lol at least they are'nt counter-productive tho...

On a serious note, we seem to be on level ground now BSDFreak I feel a lot better now. Did u like my little disclaimer by the way? I thought the Feds might be on to me with all this american slander going on didn't want to start a war :)

prizrak
December 23rd, 2005, 06:22 PM
Pfft, Russia pawnz all! :) Well not in ethics, or politics, or wealth, or economy. But we got nukes :) j/k
Bored2K, You should really watch "The Constant Gardener" it's about foreign aid to 3rd world countries and how we (1st world) anally rape them.

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 06:25 PM
And thankyou DevilsAdovocate, that was most fulfilling and definately to be taken into account so i'll put that comment down to 'Divine american ignorance' and bow to your superiority

Good, we understand each other then.


I think the EU doesn't have much choice. I'm sat in england in front of a desk thats been made by america, in front of an IBM PC, american software and i'm wearing american clothes even lol even my testicles are held snuggly in place by american underwear.

In the Land of Divine Ignorance we complain that are gonads are held in place by the fruit of Chinese Looms.


We're a proud and arrogant nation with lots of tradition and history.

Oh wait, was I supposed to bow to your superiority? I think the unconscious motivation behind European hatred of US Supremacy is envy. Europe raised America and taught it everything it knows. Now we're all grown up and you guys want us to be nice. Gimme a break.

Gurgeh
December 23rd, 2005, 06:38 PM
Yes I will give you a break :)

I think the motivation is fear for the state of the place when u've finished seeing wat ur guns can do. Ur like children with matches and your 'fruitful looms' are run by 9 year old poverty stricken kids! (Read prizraks post above) But i'm not going to argue with you.

Seriously tho, you aren't running america much the same as i'm an irrational and stubborn fool who shouldn't have bought his views to this forum so lets drop it.

So, Microsoft anyone?

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 06:42 PM
Touching comment, don't quite know what to say. I would say that you could not possibly compare the Pound to the Euro but I won't. Instead I will virtually embrace you with passionate grace and proclaim: "Hurrah for Europe"

Our politicians spend a lot of time actually getting things done nowadays, trouble is, they do the wrong things lol at least they are'nt counter-productive tho...

On a serious note, we seem to be on level ground now BSDFreak I feel a lot better now. Did u like my little disclaimer by the way? I thought the Feds might be on to me with all this american slander going on didn't want to start a war :)

I'm new here so my sayso doesn't carry much weight, i generally get into heated arguments, 15 years ago a psychologist told me that i have a need for controversy, i disputed her, of course. Thing is, i disputed her so much that i ended having a relationship with her, oh well, past history, FFW to today.

You know, the British people is one of the most friendly people i know of, i salute you by drinking Guiness when i drink beer, i salut the scotch from the highlands, i salute you as a people because i think that Sweden and GB are probably closer than any other two nations in the EU, we do share a lot of history so it's not surprising at all.

Regarding Iraq, well i'll do my duty in Afghanistan, i'd say that Iraq was a war built and fought with lies and nobody really cares anymore, it's unimportant to most people and the attention span of your average citizen is "oh my god, we supported lies but... what, the queen of denmark is dressed in purple, HOW COUDL SHE".

Misplaced outrage, not everyone are like you and me, we'll have our chance to lay our votes, next year i'm voting Moderat, you'll be voting for what you believe in, anything to break this circle of crap.

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 06:43 PM
Yes I will give you a break :)

And I think the motivation is fear for the state of the place when u've finished seeing wat ur guns can do.

Good point, I probably couldn't stomach it.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 06:47 PM
Oh wait, was I supposed to bow to your superiority? I think the unconscious motivation behind European hatred of US Supremacy is envy. Europe raised America and taught it everything it knows. Now we're all grown up and you guys want us to be nice. Gimme a break.

I don't think you believe that, i really do NOT think you believe that, i find it dishonest of you to claim it as a comeback because you could do oh so much better dwelling into the UK's past history of dealing with colonies.

Perhaps i am wrong about you and you are just stupid, but your previous arguments did hold some weight, now you are dwelling into somethin and doing a bad job of it to boot.

No, we used to look up to the US, pretty much all of europe did, it was an ideal to emulate, now, we seriously don't understand how you fast forwareded into trading your freedom in for some safety, you are a scared pathetic bunch of wimps, that is how you are viewed these days.

And to be entirely honest, you elect what you deserve, and this IS what you deserve.

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 06:52 PM
Pfft, Russia pawnz all! :) Well not in ethics, or politics, or wealth, or economy. But we got nukes :) j/k
Bored2K, You should really watch "The Constant Gardener" it's about foreign aid to 3rd world countries and how we (1st world) anally rape them.

Yeah, in Russia they had searches without warrants, incarceration of people without trial, without knowing why they are imprisoned, without even charging them with anyting, can you imagine, THAT is how bad the Soviets were...

There is no discussing aid either, of all nations the US is the one that gives the LEAST amount (as in BNP value).

Swab
December 23rd, 2005, 06:55 PM
Doesn't this thead just exemplify the spirit of Ubuntu? :)

BSDFreak
December 23rd, 2005, 07:04 PM
Doesn't this thead just exemplify the spirit of Ubuntu? :)

In a way it does, it's a call for bettering yourself or your nation, it's also a thread where there is agreement and disagrement.

It is also a thread completely devoid of hate, which does exceplify Ubuntu.

matthinckley
December 23rd, 2005, 07:07 PM
Woah what happened to the microsoft discussion?

Swab
December 23rd, 2005, 07:09 PM
Microsoft may face 2 million euros DAILY fine for violating EU law

yeah.. that's the topic.. it hasn't been discussed since page 4.. that is with the default posts per page setting..

Sorry... Microsoft bad... ummm... EU trying to justify its existance.. yada yada

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 07:19 PM
I don't think you believe that, i really do NOT think you believe that, i find it dishonest of you to claim it as a comeback because you could do oh so much better dwelling into the UK's past history of dealing with colonies.

How about this. I do believe that throughout all of recorded history, there have been a few rich and powerful nations. I do not believe it could/would/or should ever be different as the very nature of existence is strife. Ouroboros. I do believe that Nietzche hit the nail on the head in "Beyond Good and Evil" and the "Geneaology of Morals" regarding the motivation for enmity between those in power and those not. I'm applying that argument to the general sentiment regarding the US. With the sentiment becoming stronger, the further one is removed from power. (Maybe you personally have different reasons).


Perhaps i am wrong about you and you are just stupid, but your previous arguments did hold some weight, now you are dwelling into somethin and doing a bad job of it to boot.

Ad Hominem. I love it and I'm not being sarcastic. Maybe I am stupid.


No, we used to look up to the US, pretty much all of europe did, it was an ideal to emulate, now, we seriously don't understand how you fast forwareded into trading your freedom in for some safety, you are a scared pathetic bunch of wimps, that is how you are viewed these days.
And to be entirely honest, you elect what you deserve, and this IS what you deserve.

I now realize you are a Romantic at heart. Possibly, the only nation that your first statement here applies to was France. The rest of Europe looked up the U.S. and Russia, and could never make up their mind who was right, but let their pocketbooks decide. Maybe the rest of the world does view us as a pathetic bunch of wimps? That's the point, only wimps worry about what everyone else is thinking. I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence, Bush?

I love to tango too.

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 07:27 PM
Woah what happened to the microsoft discussion?

This really is a discussion about Microsoft, the philosophy behind the initiation of the thread. Or we could continue w/ MS bad, everyone else good.

akurashy
December 23rd, 2005, 07:40 PM
well i was reading some bbc news and well i found this article interesting
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4555378.stm

afaik it relates the fine. then again it looks like MS is having some trouble this year,

sethmahoney
December 23rd, 2005, 08:51 PM
1. You are comparing Murder to percieved violations of law by Microsoft

Yeah, only insofar as murder and Microsoft's violations of the law are both violations of the law - not in order to say that they're the same thing. You might pay a little more attention to what assumptions you bring into your readings before tossing out items like #2 below.


2. You are a complete and utter idiot.

Irrelevant. I may well be an idiot, but that doesn't in turn imply that I'm incorrect.


3. I NEVER compared the EU to Soviet Union, i compared your wish to force compliance to the Soviet Union and for a very good reason.

1. I guess what I'm complaining about here is the fact that you didn't share your "very good reason".

2. My wish to force Microsoft to comply with the law? Should we let any business, because they're a business and not an individual, do whatever they want just so we don't end up looking like the Soviet Union?


If you can't debate without putting words in my mouth i think we are done here.

Before you go around like some menopausal Napoleon on a sugar high and start letting fly with the personal attacks left and right again, you might take a moment to note that your phrasing wasn't exactly clear, so misreadings are likely, and understandable.

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 09:01 PM
Irrelevant. I may well be an idiot, but that doesn't in turn imply that I'm incorrect.

I can't help myself: that's exactly what it does imply but it doesn't NECESSARILLY mean that you're incorrect.



My wish to force Microsoft to comply with the law? Should we let any business, because they're a business and not an individual, do whatever they want just so we don't end up looking like the Soviet Union?

I think we should let any business do as they wish. I believe consumers should take more responsibility for their actions; i.e., vote with your pocketbook. The one distinction I would make is in the area of Public Utilities. Do you think MS should be considered a Public Utility?



Before you go around like some menopausal Napoleon on a sugar high and start letting fly with the personal attacks left and right again, you might take a moment to note that your phrasing wasn't exactly clear, so misreadings are likely, and understandable.

I didn't know he was Corsican? BSDFreak, let's pretend I'm Prussia and he's England.

sethmahoney
December 23rd, 2005, 09:04 PM
I think we should let any business do as they wish. I believe consumers should take more responsibility for their actions; i.e., vote with your pocketbook. The one distinction I would make is in the area of Public Utilities. Do you think MS should be considered a Public Utility?

Just curious here - how far do you take this "let any business do as they wish" thing?

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 09:13 PM
Just curious here - how far do you take this "let any business do as they wish" thing?

I think they should be allowed to pillage and murder if they want to.

I'm joking!

Basically, I think they should be treated as any other individual ("corporation") w/ regard to respecting the current law. The flaw w/ corporate bodies is that when they disband their is no-one to prosecute for that bodies illegalities. I think the individuals who incorporate should all be responsible, under law, for the activities of the corporation.

I do think utilities should be administered by the government w/ a non-profit attitude (how can one company suddenly own all the oil under everyone's feet).

prizrak
December 23rd, 2005, 09:36 PM
I think they should be allowed to pillage and murder if they want to.

I'm joking!

Basically, I think they should be treated as any other individual ("corporation") w/ regard to respecting the current law. The flaw w/ corporate bodies is that when they disband their is no-one to prosecute for that bodies illegalities. I think the individuals who incorporate should all be responsible, under law, for the activities of the corporation.

I do think utilities should be administered by the government w/ a non-profit attitude (how can one company suddenly own all the oil under everyone's feet).
Most businesses are allowed to do just about anything. In the case of a monopoly it's a bit different. It's very hard to vote with your wallet if 95% of OEM systems ship with Windows and Windows only. Which, for the most part, is the problem at hand. Windows owns most of the market and is artificially incompatible with anything else.

KiwiNZ
December 23rd, 2005, 09:47 PM
Most businesses are allowed to do just about anything. i.

If you have studied Corporate law you would realise how far from the truth that is.

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 10:03 PM
Most businesses are allowed to do just about anything. In the case of a monopoly it's a bit different. It's very hard to vote with your wallet if 95% of OEM systems ship with Windows and Windows only. Which, for the most part, is the problem at hand. Windows owns most of the market and is artificially incompatible with anything else.

Yes, most businesses are allowed to do just about anything I agree. Or, the more revenue they generate, the more they can get away with. But, that's because the individuals who make up the corporation cannot be held responsible for it's practices under current law. The EU will not pull money from Bill Gate's personal account to pay for the fine (I can't believe I was able to bring the thread topic in here).

As far as Windows being a monopoly, I disagree. If they were a monopoly we'ld all be using Windows95 still. There is competition and they know it. They certainly have become the industry standard and it would be hard to vote against them w/ our collective wallet. But, it could be done if ignorance, laziness, and complacency didn't stand in the way. Frankly, they're the standard by default. Who is really trying to be the next big OS anyway? (I'm speaking about the home user now). I've never seen a Novell or Redhat commercial. Apple? Again, they could care less about the OS business as they know (as does everyone else) that the $$ is in the services now.

prizrak
December 24th, 2005, 12:27 AM
Yes, most businesses are allowed to do just about anything I agree. Or, the more revenue they generate, the more they can get away with. But, that's because the individuals who make up the corporation cannot be held responsible for it's practices under current law. The EU will not pull money from Bill Gate's personal account to pay for the fine (I can't believe I was able to bring the thread topic in here).

As far as Windows being a monopoly, I disagree. If they were a monopoly we'ld all be using Windows95 still. There is competition and they know it. They certainly have become the industry standard and it would be hard to vote against them w/ our collective wallet. But, it could be done if ignorance, laziness, and complacency didn't stand in the way. Frankly, they're the standard by default. Who is really trying to be the next big OS anyway? (I'm speaking about the home user now). I've never seen a Novell or Redhat commercial. Apple? Again, they could care less about the OS business as they know (as does everyone else) that the $$ is in the services now.
According to the science of economics a monopoly is any company that has achiever 65% or higher market share. In fact in economics there is a concept known as monopolistic competition :)
You also have to realize that home user or a computer user in general is very inert. What they care about is being able to do w/e they want with the computer. Most people have no idea what malware even is to care about security. I actually just got a Linksys router which comes with a setup disk. There is a button on the router that if you press will activate the "Secure Easy Setup" and then you click on something in the setup (since I don't have Windows I didn't get to try) that will setup WPA encryption for you as well as change your SSID to something random. I know it has nothing to do with Windows, but it shows how conscious/knowledgeable an average user is about security and software in general.


If you have studied Corporate law you would realise how far from the truth that is.
That class was boring so I spent it playing some online games ;) I know they are not ACTUALLY allowed to do w/e but the enforcement is pretty lax when it comes to a non monopolistic companies that don't endanger lives. Most software companies get away with just about any business practices they please, hell even MS gets away with alot of plain illegal stuff forget about unethical