Cooperative Bank (UK) and Ubuntu

[helliewm]

I received a letter this morning from the Cooperative Bank about a Card Reader I will be receiving for my Current Account.

A quick look at their web site reveals they only support Windows and Mac.

http://www.co-operativebank.co.uk/servlet/Satellite/1199779298880,CFSweb/Page/Bank-InternetBanking

I phoned their Technical Helpline and said I use Ubuntu can I still use the Card Reader. The gentleman said NO your operating system is not supported. I then said as an Ethical Bank I am horrified that you do not support open source software. The gentleman than changed tack and said unoffically it will work with Linux.

Anyone with a Cooperative Bank Account may like to ring the Technical Helpline to complain. If enough people complain they may support Linux.

As people in the UK are aware it is an Ethical Bank and is suppose to have Ethical Standards. As it is suppose to be an Ethical Bank this is not really acceptable.

Their Technical Helpline is 0870 600 0328. Their email address is ibis@co-operativebank.co.uk. You do NOT need your bank details etc to raise a technical query with them.

Helen

[Redache]

I would have thought they would support Linux since they are "Ethical". I doubt there are any technical limitations that cause the problem, it's just lazyness when Testing. Natwest used to block any browser apart from IE until they realised it works regardless.

Blame whoever implemented their System!.

[helliewm]

I would have thought they would support Linux since they are "Ethical". I doubt there are any technical limitations that cause the problem, it's just lazyness when Testing. Natwest used to block any browser apart from IE until they realised it works regardless.

Blame whoever implemented their System!.

Yes that is what got me that they actively and agressively promote themselves as an Ethical Bank hence why it would be good if people could complain to them. At least Natwest do not promote themselves as an Ethical Bank.

As an Ethical Bank they should be supporting open source software.

Thinking about it anyone could complain you do not need to give bank details for a technical query at all.

Helen

[Sealbhach]

Bob Dylan would be horrified.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Showbiz-News/Bob-Dylan-Song-Blowin-In-The-Wind-To-Be-Used-In-Co-Op-TV-Advert-In-The-UK/Article/200901415211338?lpos=Showbiz_News_First_Media_Arti cle_Teaser_Region__1&lid=ARTICLE_15211338_Bob_Dylan_Song_Blowin_In_The_ Wind_To_Be_Used_In_Co-Op_TV_Advert_In_The_UK


The pump don't work cos the vandals took the handle.


.

[Giant Speck]

Call me stupid, but I don't see how not actively supporting Linux is an "ethical" issue.

[BigSilly]

Both me and the missus use Smile.co.uk, which is a Co-Op company, and that's been fine in Linux. No problems to report at all.

[helliewm]

This is NOT about the Internet Banking web site its about the Card Reader they are introducing. This what I phoned them about the Card Reader NOT Internet Banking. As an Ethical Bank they should really be supporting open source alternatives.

Helen

[Redache]

Does the Card Reader actually plug into a PC with the Co-Op?

I was given a Card Reader by Natwest for use in Transfers etc. and I just input the Code the Reader gives me (It's just a handheld device with a Num Pad and Card Reader on it). I don't see why they'd even need you to connect it as that'd be more insecure if you think about it.

[BigSilly]

This is NOT about the Internet Banking web site its about the Card Reader they are introducing. This what I phoned them about the Card Reader NOT Internet Banking. As an Ethical Bank they should really be supporting open source alternatives.

Helen

The site says you don't have to plug it into a computer at all. (http://www.co-operativebank.co.uk/servlet/Satellite/1228376873753,CFSweb/Page/Bank-InternetBanking) Sorry if I've missed a trick, but I had no frame of reference with what you meant by them sending you a card reader. It's a physical item then? I thought it was a site application or something!

[helliewm]

oes the Card Reader actually plug into a PC with the Co-Op?

I was given a Card Reader by Natwest for use in Transfers etc. and I just input the Code the Reader gives me (It's just a handheld device with a Num Pad and Card Reader on it). I don't see why they'd even need you to connect it as that'd be more insecure if you think about it.


Do not know waiting for it to arrive now. Was just horrified at the initial No it is not supported by your Ubuntu Oerating System! He then gulped when I challenged him over the bank being an ethical bank lol.

Will update when this contraption arrives!

It was just the initial letter this morning.

Helen

[helliewm]

Apparently it is an physical item. Just waiting for it to arrive but its worrying that the official line is it is not supported by Ubuntu when you ring the Technical Helpline. Its only when actively challenged they say it will work. Which is not good really.

Helen

[Sealbhach]

Call me stupid, but I don't see how not actively supporting Linux is an "ethical" issue.

Free and Open Source software helps poorer nations to catch up with developed nations - it's something which any ethically minded organisation would want to support.


.

[albinootje]

Call me stupid, but I don't see how not actively supporting Linux is an "ethical" issue.

In 2009 the amount of Linux users is really not in the thousands, but in the millions of Linux users worldwide.
Ignoring the Linux users completely is plain rude.
It's nice of them to officially support more than just Microsoft-Windows, but not supporting Linux is certainly an ethical issue esp. looking at this "cooperative" banking.
The least thing they can do is unofficially support Linux (by putt, say that it is unofficial, and put some links or howtos on their website.

[Giant Speck]

In 2009 the amount of Linux users is really not in the thousands, but in the millions of Linux users worldwide.
Ignoring the Linux users completely is plain rude.
It's nice of them to officially support more than just Microsoft-Windows, but not supporting Linux is certainly an ethical issue esp. looking at this "cooperative" banking.
The least thing they can do is unofficially support Linux (by putt, say that it is unofficial, and put some links or howtos on their website.

Perhaps they are just ignorant to the fact that their website and services might work with Linux? Just because Linux exists and people use it does not make a company or website obligated to support it. And just because they don't support Linux doesn't mean they are deliberately not supporting it.

I still don't see the connection between "ethical banking" and not supporting Linux. From what I read on their website about ethical banking, the only thing about the company that has anything to do with ethics is where a customer's money is invested. The "ethical" part of their business description seems to be limited to investment, not software support.

[dcpking]

It would be nice if any of the banks here in the USA could be considered to have any ethical standards above those of a sewer rat (apologies to any well-brought-up rats who may be reading this). Maybe a politician would be a better comparison: http://leisureguy.wordpress.com/2007/12/17/the-worst-ethics-scandals-of-2007/.

Maybe I should just opine that banks here have no ethical standards.
Full stop !

Mike

[albinootje]

Perhaps they are just ignorant to the fact that their website and services might work with Linux? Just because Linux exists and people use it does not make a company or website obligated to support it. And just because they don't support Linux doesn't mean they are deliberately not supporting it.

It is possible that their ICT staff is completely MS brainwas^H^H.. minded, yes.
The fact that the person of the company on the phone said that they unofficially support Linux seems to state that they do know what they're doing or talking about.


I still don't see the connection between "ethical banking" and not supporting Linux. From what I read on their website about ethical banking, the only thing about the company that has anything to do with ethics is where a customer's money is invested. The "ethical" part of their business description seems to be limited to investment, not software support.

In my opinion the decades long abuse by Microsoft of their monopoly on the desktop market is an ethical issue.
Anything trying to extent that monopoly abuse is also an ethical issue.
It is especially shameful imho that a cooperative bank doesn't seem to care about that.

[uberdonkey5]

Call me stupid, but I don't see how not actively supporting Linux is an "ethical" issue.

Because linux (at least ubuntu) is free and open source and has a community ethic. This allows people with little money to have access to the internet or at least to computing. It allows control of our computer use by commerical interests and empowers the individual.

I expect many people who would choose to bank with the Cooperative Bank (who I must say, are a FANTASTIC bank and are much much better in terms of service than HSBC, Barclays, Natwest/Ulster Bank), I expect they also think ethically about other areas of their life e.g. free-range meat, against burmese oil supliers (e.g. chevron) etc.

Thanks for info, I will contact coop today

ud5

[helliewm]

Thanks for info, I will contact coop today


Can you let me know what happens, either through the thread. PM me or email me see my website in my signature.

Thanks,

Helen

[MellonCollie]

I was given a Card Reader by Natwest for use in Transfers etc. and I just input the Code the Reader gives me (It's just a handheld device with a Num Pad and Card Reader on it).

My one from the RBS is the same.

[rolandrock]

Helen, rest assured that you don't have to plug the card reader into your computer.

I have been a coop bank customer for many years and (apart from browser dependant teething troubles in the very early months of internet banking) I have had no problems as a Linux user.

The fact they don't advertise Linux support could be considered 'rude' but please don't put them in the same category as the atrocious Parcelforce currently being bludgeoned in a different thread.

Unlike Parcelforce, the Coop have been technological innovators (one of the first decent phone banking systems then first really useable online banking service in the UK) and their support staff, funk and tech, generally know what they are talking about.

Please quote "Campaign137" in your account application so I get my commission ;)

[albinootje]

Because linux (at least ubuntu) is free and open source and has a community ethic. This allows people with little money to have access to the internet or at least to computing. It allows control of our computer use by commerical interests and empowers the individual.

I expect many people who would choose to bank with the Cooperative Bank (who I must say, are a FANTASTIC bank and are much much better in terms of service than HSBC, Barclays, Natwest/Ulster Bank), I expect they also think ethically about other areas of their life e.g. free-range meat, against burmese oil supliers (e.g. chevron) etc.


Very nicely stated. Thanks!

[helliewm]

I have to say I almost certainly will stop using the Coop for online transactions.

Another thing that has occurred to me is I will have to carry the flaming thing around with me. I did my Sainsbury food shopping in a meeting using my Nokia N810 Internet Tablet that runs Maemo a Debian derivative, this week. I will now have to carry a Card Reader with me. If I accidentally leave it unattended it could be tempered with as well as Chip and Machines are. I do not think so somehow:p

Still waiting for said Card Reader to arrive to find out exactly how it works and why the official line is an empathic NO from the Coop Technical Support. This thread is really about the emphatic official no to Linux/Open Source and the Card Reader against their Ethical Standpoint.

Helen

[Johnsie]

I got sent the card reader by natwest that doesn't plug into the computer. So far I have never had to use it. Having to carry a card reader everywhere I go seems a bit of a joke to me.

[sydbat]

The point everyone seems to be missing is this - ethics are a personal thing. Ethics, at the basic level, are simply personal beliefs about how we think things should be, and then how we live our lives according to those beliefs. We tend to congregate around others who hold similar beliefs.

Thinking that someone else (or a business or whatever) is "unethical" simply because they do not believe what we do is silly.

Of course companies use this kind of catchphrase to increase their customer base and profit margin. They are hoping that people will simply believe that the company is conducting business in a manner that falls into a preconceived idea of a persons belief system, without actually delving deeper into what the 'ethics' are that they (the company) subscribe to. When the company seems to deviate from this assumed ethical path, their ethics are called into question.

Just think about it...many people do not like how Microsoft, for example, conduct their business. In fact, many of us on this forum find them unethical. However, from their perspective, they are quite ethical.

Just my $0.000002

[helliewm]

Sydbat I quite agree. The issue with the Cooperative Bank is they do aggressively market their ethical standpoint in the UK.

See post here from the beginning of the thread which says it all if you click on the Sky News link.


Bob Dylan would be horrified.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sho...vert_In_The_UK


The pump don't work cos the vandals took the handle.



Helen

[sydbat]

Sydbat I quite agree. The issue with the Cooperative Bank is they do aggressively market their ethical standpoint in the UK.This is something that bothers me alot. Companies here (Canada) do this too, but I always ask who's ethics they are following. Personally, I do not trust companies that push 'ethics' as a selling point, but there are people who do...

EDIT - And the Bob Dylan thing...maybe he needs the money...

[helliewm]

Sydbat, yes agree with you completely. Just find it hypocritical their very strong ethical standpoint and then an emphatic official No to open source re their Card Reader. See previous posts in this thread as to why open source is an ethical issue other people have argued better than me in this thread.

Helen

[Paqman]

Helen, rest assured that you don't have to plug the card reader into your computer.


This.

It doesn't matter what OS you are using. The card reader is a battery-operated device about the size and shape of a calculator. You insert the card and it spits out a code, which you copy onto the website. This is OS-agnostic stuff which we should be supporting, not complaining about.

It'll look something like this:
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Technology/Pix/pictures/2007/08/29/card_reader460.jpg

[uberdonkey5]

The point everyone seems to be missing is this - ethics are a personal thing. Ethics, at the basic level, are simply personal beliefs about how we think things should be, and then how we live our lives according to those beliefs. We tend to congregate around others who hold similar beliefs.

Thinking that someone else (or a business or whatever) is "unethical" simply because they do not believe what we do is silly.

Of course companies use this kind of catchphrase to increase their customer base and profit margin. They are hoping that people will simply believe that the company is conducting business in a manner that falls into a preconceived idea of a persons belief system, without actually delving deeper into what the 'ethics' are that they (the company) subscribe to. When the company seems to deviate from this assumed ethical path, their ethics are called into question.

Just think about it...many people do not like how Microsoft, for example, conduct their business. In fact, many of us on this forum find them unethical. However, from their perspective, they are quite ethical.

Just my $0.000002

Philosophically I completely agree with you, but I think in normal use an ethical standpoint means making actions or decisions based on more than your own self-interest. For example, the cooperative bank usually has poor interest rates* (for savings and borrowings), but I love that they listen to the ethical concerns of their users (they hold polls to see if people feel their are new/alternative ethical concerns). Its ethical in the sense that they try to represent the ethics of its users. I don't think microsoft could be considered to be the same league.... have they ever asked you if you wanted windows 7 to be open source :D


*though their excellent service and cost free banking make up for that

[uberdonkey5]

...This is OS-agnostic stuff..


I love that saying! will have to remember it

[ajcham]

I think it is important to understand the difference between 'not supported' and 'doesn't work'. When it is said that a company doesn't support Linux, all it means is that they have not tested on the platform and cannot provide OS-specific technical advice. This is fair enough - given that Linux users are a small minority, the expense in performing additional testing and training/hiring staff to deal with Linux may be difficult to justify.

People on both sides are guilty of the same misunderstanding - as demonstrated by the helpline operator's assertion 'You can't use Linux - it's not supported'. This is an incorrect response. Instead, I believe the tech support should simply tell the customer if they personally have known Linux to work with the system, but qualify that with the disclaimer that they can make no guarantees of compatibility.

This indiscretion aside, I don't think the Co-op have acted inappropriately and are not in conflict with their 'ethical bank' claims. It's not like they take the stance that ParcelForce do, as described in another thread, in which they purposefully choose to be artificially incompatible with Linux.

[ww711]

Pin Sentry/Carder reader, I too have one. As others have mentioned it is a standalone card reader, it's not dependant on type of OS... slot your card in, confirm your pin, it returns a 8 digit number that you have to input into your online banking website.

They're powered by 4 batteries, the flat type...it's a shame they are not powered using small solar panels; like you see on calculators, what happens when the batteries die...you have to replace the batteries, a small cost, will they even let you take apart their property, who pays for the batteries....do they send you a whole new device which would seem a complete waste...


Apparently battery life is 5-7 years....

[Giant Speck]

This indiscretion aside, I don't think the Co-op have acted inappropriately and are not in conflict with their 'ethical bank' claims. It's not like they take the stance that ParcelForce do, as described in another thread, in which they purposefully choose to be artificially incompatible with Linux.

Exactly. From what I have read on their website, I have come to the conclusion that the "ethical" part of Coop's business only applies to the types of investments they make, and not toward the software they do or do not support. People are overbroadening the description of "ethical bank" to fulfill their anti-anti-Linux agenda and make the bank appear to discriminate against Linux users.

[sydbat]

Philosophically I completely agree with you, but I think in normal use an ethical standpoint means making actions or decisions based on more than your own self-interest. For example, the cooperative bank usually has poor interest rates* (for savings and borrowings), but I love that they listen to the ethical concerns of their users (they hold polls to see if people feel their are new/alternative ethical concerns). Its ethical in the sense that they try to represent the ethics of its users. I don't think microsoft could be considered to be the same league.... have they ever asked you if you wanted windows 7 to be open source :D


*though their excellent service and cost free banking make up for thatDefinitely good points. However, it is still a company (the bank) and will do what is necessary to make a profit.

It may be that they are truly trying to accommodate a majority of people with their polling, but they may simply be paying lip service and only appear to be listening. Again, to me, this is the flaw in promoting ethics as a feature. At some point they will do what they need to survive and it will not be "ethical" to many.

Of course they might just be sincere...in which case, they would rather fail than do something to upset their customer base...only time can show what course they are really on.

And I agree with Giant Speck on this point:
From what I have read on their website, I have come to the conclusion that the "ethical" part of Coop's business only applies to the types of investments they make, and not toward the software they do or do not support. People are overbroadening the description of "ethical bank" to fulfill their anti-anti-Linux agenda and make the bank appear to discriminate against Linux users.But my previous statements about how people perceive what "ethical" stands for remains valid.

[Paqman]

Exactly. From what I have read on their website, I have come to the conclusion that the "ethical" part of Coop's business only applies to the types of investments they make, and not toward the software they do or do not support. People are overbroadening the description of "ethical bank" to fulfill their anti-anti-Linux agenda and make the bank appear to discriminate against Linux users.

Couldn't agree more. There's nothing actually unethical about officially supporting only Windows or Mac. Linux is a niche system on the desktop. We all knew when we installed, but we went ahead anyway.

Where does it stop? Would it be unethical to support Linux but not BSD? :rolleyes:

Anyway, there's nothing stopping you from banking with the Co-Op on Linux. I use Smile (their online bank) and i've never had any problems.

[Giant Speck]

Couldn't agree more. There's nothing actually unethical about officially supporting only Windows or Mac. Linux is a niche system on the desktop. We all knew when we installed, but we went ahead anyway.

Where does it stop? Would it be unethical to support Linux but not BSD? :rolleyes:


Exactly. Companies don't sit down and try to make sure that their software or web pages can be viewed and used by all operating systems. That would be a waste of time and resources. They are going to support the operating systems that are most widely used by their consumer base, which in this case would be Windows and OS X. Just because they don't or can't support a specific operating system doesn't mean that the company is intentionally going out of its way to discriminate againts those users. The simply don't realize that there is a small portion of their consumer base that doesn't use the two most mainstream operating systems.

[uberdonkey5]

After sending email to coop I got this back, so looks like will just be a hand held device.. storm in a tea-cup :D


I can confirm that the card readers will be platform independent, therefore as long as you're able to log in to internet banking on the computer you're using, you'll be able to use the card reader effectively.

If you need any more technical help or information...drop us another email at ibis@co-operativebank.co.uk or give us a call
on 0870 6000 328. We're here to answer your questions between 9.00am and 7.00pm in the week and 9.00am to 6.00pm on Saturday.

[helliewm]

No what I was told when I phoned was an emphatic NO. I then emailed them and pointed out this thread that I started. Looks like the forums have achieved something:D

[albinootje]

Where does it stop? Would it be unethical to support Linux but not BSD? :rolleyes:


You don't like changes on the desktop ?
You prefer protecting monopolies ?

I've mentioned it before on this forum, years ago the railway company in Holland (yes, they're a monopoly) changed their website into a MS-IE only website, with all other browsers the website gave problems.
After a nation-wide protest started (by Linux users and others), the railway company gave in, and promised to rebuild the website to support all browsers, which they did!

BSD, and AmigaOS and OS/2 etc. are insignificant numbers on the personal computers.
Linux however is at a point where it is significant on the home computers and only growing.
And coming up with computer+OS sale numbers as mass media does is senseless, cause those numbers are flawed.
I doubt that MS still has a 95 % or more desktop market share.
It's my feeling that in the last few years, esp. because of Ubuntu, the Linux growth has been explosive compared to years ago.

[gn2]

My bank sent me one of these devices about a year ago and I've never had to use it once.

[t0p]

Call me stupid

You are stupid.

:P

[t0p]

post removed by Eris

[getaboat]

That device looks like a clone of the one sent out quite a while ago by Nationwide ("Pretending to be a Building Society"). It does not plug into a PC and I've not had any probs with it or their site (just them),

I also bank with Smile (Co-op) and have done since the very early days of Smile - so I await their device - but if that is it then I don't see a problem.

However this and the outragous PorcelFarce thread does indicate that there are big names out there who obviously do not want our business. What we could do with is a non-Linux friendly sites list somewhere so we know who to avoid. Perhaps I'll start a thread so that people can put their experiences.

I have to say though that I think some of these issues come down to Flash (why do sites insist on using it for basic website construction - FIIK?) and its sometimes patchy behaviour on Linux.

Anyway - my 2p worth.
- Scottish Hyrdo (flash site) - awful - I have to dig up my W98 box to access them (and the site is rubbish). Have never answered my emails.
- Sky TV - (my sky) - doesn't like Opera (in so many ways ;-) - not too clever in FF.
- t-Mobile - getting better but not there yet (good functionality but frustrating to use)