Linus Torvalds now uses GNOME

[RichardLinx]

In a recent Computerworld interview, Linus revealed that he's switched to Gnome — this despite launching a heavily critical broadside against Gnome just a few years ago. His reason? He thinks KDE 4 is a 'disaster.' Although it's improved recently, he'll find many who agree with this prognosis, and KDE 4 can be painful to use.
http://slashdot.org/


Another open source project that underwent a big change was KDE with version 4.0. They released a lot of fundamental architectural changes with 4.0 and it received some negative reviews. As a KDE user how has this impacted you?

I used to be a KDE user. I thought KDE 4.0 was such a disaster I switched to GNOME. I hate the fact that my right button doesn't do what I want it to do. But the whole "break everything" model is painful for users and they can choose to use something else.

I realise the reason for the 4.0 release, but I think they did it badly. They did so may changes it was a half-baked release. It may turn out to be the right decision in the end and I will re-try KDE, but I suspect I'm not the only person they lost.

I got the update through Fedora and there was a mismatch from KDE 3 to KDE 4.0. The desktop was not as functional and it was just a bad experience for me. I'll revisit it when I reinstall the next machine which tends to be every six to eight months.

The GNOME people are talking about doing major surgery so it could also go the other way.
http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&taxonomyName=Software&articleId=9126619&taxonomyId=18&pageNumber=5

Just thought a few people here might be interested so I decided to post this up. To be honest I'm a little surprised that he's switched from KDE to GNOME. KDE4 feels a little clunky but I can see that it's on it's way to becoming something very usable.

Let me guess, recurring discussions? :)

[Polygon]

that must be saying something about kde 4 if he disliked it so much that he went to gnome

also ironically, the right mouse button issue was the same reason he disliked gnome too as well, am i right?

[reprobus]

A lot of people look up to him. I wonder if it will cause others to switch.

[kavon89]

Linus revealed that he's switched to Gnome

Gnome here I come!

[SunnyRabbiera]

Yeh KDE4 so far has not been fun, but I will keep an eye on KDE 4.2.

[RichardLinx]

that must be saying something about kde 4 if he disliked it so much that he went to gnome

also ironically, the right mouse button issue was the same reason he disliked gnome too as well, am i right?

He did state that he would be trying KDE again in about six months, but yes that does show that even the most competent Linux users think KDE4 is horrible.

And yes, the right mouse button issue was the same reason he disliked GNOME. Funny guy isn't he?. :D

[Spr0k3t]

also ironically, the right mouse button issue was the same reason he disliked gnome too as well, am i right?

Kind of. It was the reason why he was not fond of the Mac he got from Apple.

[Aenoble]

Seems he was talking about 4.0. I wonder if he's tried it since?

[RichardLinx]

A lot of people look up to him. I wonder if it will cause others to switch.
I wouldn't be surprised If it does. But KDE development is now in a feature freeze where all the development team are really doing is fixing bugs so in six months to a year I'm sure It will be a much more usable DE and news of Linus switching back to KDE will surface.

[MaxIBoy]

Linus Torvalds is just another Linux user. It doesn't matter what DE he uses, any more than it matters what DE I use.

[binbash]

4.2 is way better than 4.1 but still gnome wins no suprise

[Stalker72]

I'm sure he will change back with the 4.2 release. :popcorn:

Stalker72

[SomeGuyDude]

I don't like KDE much either, but is it just me or is Linus a serious alarm-ringing child with these things? Every time he shows up it's to start squealing about something or other and how it's "broken" and "horrible".

[RichardLinx]

Linus Torvalds is just another Linux user. It doesn't matter what DE he uses, any more than it matters what DE I use.

True, but his choice will probably still influence the choice of a lot of users out there. "If Linus Torvalds uses gnome then It must be better!" I can see something like this happening. I wouldn't be surprised If we see posts in the KDE vs GNOME discussions with people adding things like "Besides, Linus Torvalds uses GNOME."

[SomeGuyDude]

True, but his choice will probably still influence the choice of a lot of users out there. "If Linus Torvalds uses gnome then It must be better!" I can see something like this happening. I wouldn't be surprised If we see posts in the KDE vs GNOME discussions with people adding things like "Besides, Linus Torvalds uses GNOME."

Which drives me nuts because people assume that what he thinks is how things "should" be. Like when he delivered his big ultimatum about how he dislikes "complicated" distros and thinks they should be as ****-easy as can be in order to attract new users.

It's cool that he thinks the way he does, and a lot of people agree, but that doesn't mean he's objectively "correct". I don't care if Linus converts to OSX someday, I'm happy with what I use.

[bailout]

As a long time kde user and disliker of the dumbed down 'gnanny knows best' philosophy of gnome it pains me to say that after trying kubuntu 8.10 I installed ubuntu on my desktop and xubuntu on my laptop :( I feel dirty having to admit that ;)

I have installed many kde apps though but they don't all work perfectly in gnome. Tbh it was the apps that made me chose kde mainly as I usually much prefer them to the gnome/gtk equivelents but kde4 in its current incarnation is too bad for me to use.

kde4 may be good in the future but it should never have been released so early. I suspect that when they produce a stable usable version it will probably last about 6 months before it is scrapped and replaced by kde5 alpha (released as kde5.0).

If I get more used to gnome I don't know whether I will bother trying to go back to kde. The attitude of the developers towards users is pretty clear from the way they released kde4. I don't have the time or patience for my de to be a constantly unstable bug ridden beta so I don't think I fit their target user.

[ajcham]

Whilst it would be ridiculous to base ones decision on which DE to use based on Linus's (or anyone else's) opinion, I did react in a similar manner upon KDE4's release - as a long term KDE user I now use GNOME. I wouldn't go as far as to say that KDE4 has been done badly, I would merely state that to my mind it is not 'finished' yet. I don't find 4.1 to be as functional as 3.5 was, and thus far the 4.2 nightly build has been terribly unstable and unresponsive on my machine. I suspect I'll return to KDE one day, but for now GNOME is performing adequately.

[smartboyathome]

I wonder what if it will be worse than this once GNOME 3.0 goes live. :P

[RichardLinx]

I wonder what if it will be worse than this once GNOME 3.0 goes live. :P

I believe the GNOME 3.0 release will be much smoother compared to the KDE4 release since they would probably know better after witnessing the recent "KDE4 Disaster". They wouldn't want bad press.

[reprobus]

Linus Torvalds is just another Linux user. It doesn't matter what DE he uses, any more than it matters what DE I use.

Thats heresy! Quick! Someone grab some rope and a large stake and I will start building the bonfire.

;)

[Namtabmai]

Linus in his usual style has been very vocal about his dislike of Gnome before, check out this thread on the Desktop Architects mailing list

Printing dialog and Gnome (https://lists.linux-foundation.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2007-February/thread.html#1127)

There's some fairly choice quotes from Linus in there, even a few patches trying to fix some of the problems he has (had?) with Gnome.

My favourite quote?



Linus' law (nr 76 of 271):
"Don't claim to have a config option, if you don't actually have the UI
to change it"


Which I think sums up my dislike for Gnome, even thou I'm using it currently.

[mdsmedia]

Personally, I started my Linux experience with Gnome, I tried Kubuntu and kept coming back to Gnome.

Now my laptop (main working machine) has Ubuntu and my desktop (play machine) has Mandriva KDE. It's hard to get used to KDE and I prefer Gnome, still.

I must admit that when I heard that Linus (why is the x key so close to the s key?) used KDE I thought about what I was using, but now he's using Gnome I really don't care. I've tried to like KDE but just can't at the moment.

[-grubby]

I'm glad it doesn't make news when I switch Desktops :|

[tgalati4]

Have you ever eaten a half-baked cookie? Or a half-backed casserole? You can do it, but it's not pleasant. That was my experience of KDE 4.1.3 with OpenSUSE 11.1. Several things didn't work as expected and some 3.5 functionality is missing. At least you can log in with KDE 3.5 in the "session" menu at the graphical login screen. I like KDE and I'm starting to understand what the developers are trying to do with plasmoids.

KDE 4.2 should be closer to the developers' ultimate vision. I would leave the cookies in the oven a little longer.

Gnome is solid. Foresight linux has the latest gnome desktop without the Ubuntu modifications. So if you want to experience gnome the way the developers' have envisioned it, try Foresight. You will appreciate gnome more and also appreciate why there are so many distros out there.

[jrusso2]

I don't like KDE 4 either but I won't go to gnome. I am going to keep using KDE 3.5 until KDE 4 is just as good as KDE 3.5. Hopefully that will be sometime before Hardy Support runs out.

[cb951303]

Personally, I never listen to Linus. The same guy didn't just stop using GNOME but he advised everyone to not to use it and switch to KDE. if I remember correctly that was approx. the same time Slackware stopped providing GNOME packages. What a loss. Fortunately there was Dropline :popcorn:

[speedwell68]

Personally I like GNOME, I have played with KDE a few times, but keep on coming back to good old GNOME. I have had a recent flirtation with XFCE and am considering it for my netbook.

[Erik Trybom]

Why didn't he just keep using KDE 3.5? It will certainly be around for another six to eight months.

Then again, that news item wouldn't make it to the headlines...

[Yownanymous]

KDE 4 is an EPIC FAIL. I tried it on the Dell Inspiron Mini 9, it kept going through varying brightnesses as if switching from battery to AC and vice versa.

And tbh I'd always found KDE 3 a bit annoying as well. Just not really as simple/functional as GNOME.

[quazi]

that must be saying something about kde 4 if he disliked it so much that he went to gnome

also ironically, the right mouse button issue was the same reason he disliked gnome too as well, am i right?

You can get a customized right (any button)-click menu with compiz-deskmenu in both KDE and Gnome. It's somewhat silly to use compiz in KDE though, as the of the main "awesomes" in KDE is Kwin.

That's why I haven't brought myself to try KDE yet (I tried 3 way back when, but no reason to get used to a DE that's rapidly becoming outdated).

[FuturePilot]

Just when I was thinking about switching to KDE...
Hmph.[-(

[RichardLinx]

I switched to KDE just two days ago, I decided it was about time I saw what all the fuss was about. It's really quite a solid DE, maybe the initial release was horrible but I'm having no problems with it now apart from the fact that I'm not use to It, I'm not familiar with a bunch of Qt/KDE apps, and It feels just a little bit clunky to me.

[jrusso2]

Well maybe Linus is using gnome now but Mark Shuttleworth uses KDE if you need someone famous to think its good.

[swoll1980]

You would think someone as brilliant as Torvalds could hack kde, or gnome, or a microwave oven for that matter, to do whatever he wanted it too. Wonder why he chooses not to?

[perlluver]

You would think someone as brilliant as Torvalds could hack kde, or gnome, or a microwave oven for that matter, to do whatever he wanted it too. Wonder why he chooses not to?

He is worried about the Kernel, and from what I remember he said if you ever see me in a GUI, run away.

[jrusso2]

You would think someone as brilliant as Torvalds could hack kde, or gnome, or a microwave oven for that matter, to do whatever he wanted it too. Wonder why he chooses not to?

Good question. He did send some patches to Gnome when they told him to stop complaining and start coding.

[WelterPelter]

Having used both, I would agree with him (currently, anyway).

[chucky chuckaluck]

you think someone who's been using linux from the beginning would have figured out openbox by now.

[chris4585]

you think someone who's been using linux from the beginning would have figured out openbox by now.

rofl

yeah or maybe LXDE???

[rudihawk]

Linus Torvalds is just another Linux user. It doesn't matter what DE he uses, any more than it matters what DE I use.

+1

My thoughts exactly, who cares what DE he uses. Its his own choice.

[OutOfReach]

You'd be surprised by how many people care about his choices.
I myself admit that he initially was the one who got me to try KDE. I thought to myself "Hey, if Linus praises this DE, it must be good!", yes I know not the smartest thing to do. It turns out that KDE wasn't for me, I switched back to GNOME then Openbox and switched back to KDE (4.2), but that's a different story.

Anyways, I've learned not to care about what other people say about things. I just try them myself and judge from that experience.

[MikeTheC]

I, for one, am glad that someone with the reputation and name recognition as Linus has come out and said something, because maybe, just maybe it'll get the KDE devs to re-think their strategy and approach.

If not, then they'll most deservedly hemorrhage users to the point where they either eventually learn, or be reduced to irrelevancy.

That's basic competition, folks, and it's a good thing.

[dcast]

I did the same thing. I was using KDE 3.5xx for ages and thought it was great. Unfortunately KDE 4.0 and 4.1 were a complete disaster for me and I have gone back to Gnome, which I always liked anyways, although not as much as KDE. I am going to give KDE a shot in 4.2, but no fingers crossed.

[BigCityCat]

I am new to both but i tried both. KDE looks good out of the box but it has a lot of bugs. It screen flashes all the time. Ubuntu does not look as good out of the box but I think gnome or ubuntu is more customizable, and ultimately looks better. I switched back to ubuntu after trying kde.

[Rokurosv]

I remember when I read the article saying he used KDE, I thought about giving it a try but I remember how much I hated the look of it. Now I'm a KDE fan with 4.1, and soon 4.2(2 more days :D). His choices do matter for some people.

[rok3]

I, for one, am glad that someone with the reputation and name recognition as Linus has come out and said something, because maybe, just maybe it'll get the KDE devs to re-think their strategy and approach.

If not, then they'll most deservedly hemorrhage users to the point where they either eventually learn, or be reduced to irrelevancy.

That's basic competition, folks, and it's a good thing.

All the blame should not be placed on the KDE devs. While they chose to name what was essentially a beta (in my mind) KDE 4.0 it was the individual distributions that chose to push 4.x over 3.5 and in some cases make it the default.

[MaxIBoy]

+1

My thoughts exactly, who cares what DE he uses. Its his own choice.

On the other hand, everyone should be deeply concerned about my personal choices, because I'm just that amazing.

[etnlIcarus]

A lot of people look up to him. I wonder if it will cause others to switch.

I can't imagine why people look up to him but I don't doubt that your prediction will be somewhat vindicated.


Also, let me just state that KDE 4.2 beta is solid. I don't use KDE - I generally disliked the 3.x branch and my PC is too old to run 4.x effectively but it really will be the future of desktop Linux. Broadsides against 4.x had their place with the earlier releases (moreso with 4.1 than 4.0 since the K devs never said 4.0 was meant to be a stable release; users just did a lot of selective reading) but unless you're still having x crashes with the 4.2 betas/RCs, now would be the time to shut up about, "KDE4 sux", and start submitting specific bugs to the bug trackers.

[MikeTheC]

Two things:


I can't imagine why people look up to him but I don't doubt that your prediction will be somewhat vindicated.
Why shouldn't or wouldn't people look up to the guy who created the Linux kernel?

Second: Is that avatar the "new" Teela?

[MikeTheC]

All the blame should not be placed on the KDE devs. While they chose to name what was essentially a beta (in my mind) KDE 4.0 it was the individual distributions that chose to push 4.x over 3.5 and in some cases make it the default.

No, I blame the KDE devs for not giving the distro maintainers a more stable and reliable product for general release.

If the KDE devs want to put out pre-release grade software, that's fine, but you don't put it out in a way where it's going to be treated as a "finished" product.

[Harii]

I started with kde and switch over to gnome and then to xfce.

i don't care what DE Linus Torvalds uses.
As long as he do not tell me what DE i can/should use.
we don't need a bill gates for linux.

I bet bill uses linux:p

[etnlIcarus]

Two things:


Why shouldn't or wouldn't people look up to the guy who created the Linux kernel?

Second: Is that avatar the "new" Teela?

Firstly, I appreciate the contribution Linus has made and continues to make to free software but he's not some kind of idealistic demigod like Santa Claus; he didn't originally put his kernel under the GPL as some grand altruistic gesture. He's said so himself, it was more of a pragmatic choice at the time.

On the other hand, there are thousands of contributors who fix bugs and implement features in projects filed by useless laymen like me. Most of these people never make a cent for their efforts, nor necessarily reap benefits from features they never asked for. To end this thought on possibly the biggest cliche: these are the unsung heroes of open source software.

Secondly, yes, that is Teela from the '02 series of He-Man.

[Giant Speck]

I say "meh" and press on.

[billgoldberg]

Linus Torvalds is just another Linux user. It doesn't matter what DE he uses, any more than it matters what DE I use.

Exactly.

I like to read what he has to say about linux and the things to come and all, but I couldn't give a flying monkeys balls about what DE he uses.

[techmarks]

I've never been a great fan of KDE, but I do like all the KDE apps that came with Ubuntu.

Gnome is ok, but I like Xfce much better.

So Linus uses whatever he likes best, he's entitled to change his mind.

[urukrama]

I'm always surprised by those that say the bugginess of KDE 4 made them switch from KDE to another DE. If they liked KDE so much in the first place, why don't they just stick with KDE 3 until KDE 4 reaches a level they like? It is not like they are forced to switch from KDE 3 to 4 :confused:

[X40nick]

I think KDE4 is just as bad, if not worse than Windows Vista. Gnome is stable, easy, and clear. KDE is cluttered, slow, and just a mirror of Windows.

I won't be using KDE unless it radically changes, which after all that work - is highly unlikely.

[butlins]

kde has become a dirty word- here in the forums

[mips]

kde has become a dirty word- here in the forums

It has always been. The people from these forums are so flipping Gnome centric that I think many are not objective. If there is an oppertunity to bash KDE then they will.

This thread will eventually go the same way as other threads where the word KDE is mentions, recurring discussions or locked.

I bet there are mnay KDE users here that won't even mention they use KDE but if they did they would not feel 'as welcome'.

[gjoellee]

KDE 4.2 gives the same functionality as GNOME 2.24 does

[SunnyRabbiera]

KDE 4.2 gives the same functionality as GNOME 2.24 does

we shall see, its still a RC right now and so far I remain skeptical.

[Eclipse.]

Has hell just frozen over? ;)

Always thought that would come first.

[Ioky]

Well, Whatever he use, I don't really case. Bill Gate is a hero once too. Just don't tell me you never use windows and think it is good, with the exception of MAC user sense the beginning. For now, I use thing give me the most control, and most custom option. I setup my computer for myself, not anyone else. I think of myself the most. What fits me, and what not. Just don't tell me this is what you have to use, even though it is what it call the best of the world. if it is the best that I think, then that is a difference story, but that is very un-likely and almost impossible to happen. When I am setting up a system for others. I do the same, I only thing of what they would likes, and should work best for them. When I don't know what they really like, I ask, as well as tell them all the knowledge, so they can see the big pictures. I mean, why wouldn't setup a Linux system to a person who need AutoCAD for work everyday. I think the best tools is the tool that can be fit on anyone's hand. be able to customize is key to me. Just me good functional and stable software, and customizable ability, I will happy, doesn't really matter what GUI that would be.

[Ioky]

It has always been. The people from these forums are so flipping Gnome centric that I think many are not objective. If there is an oppertunity to bash KDE then they will.

This thread will eventually go the same way as other threads where the word KDE is mentions, recurring discussions or locked.

I bet there are mnay KDE users here that won't even mention they use KDE but if they did they would not feel 'as welcome'.

It would be pointless to say anything that is objective, especially there isn't anything that is in true objective. Just keep the eye and mind open, and let idea in should do the most good. It would be a shame to a linux user to have a "closed" mind. A "open" should welcome anything and idea. You can hate people, however, you hate them because they aren't you. Then there isn't anything you can really love/like. ;)

[diablo75]

I've used GNOME since starting with Ubuntu 3 years ago and have never found anything functionally that I don't like about it (although I think it looks about as plain as Windows 95 graphically so it rather ugly looking). I love the way KDE looks right about now, but little things about it kind of confuse me and I end up switching back to GNOME after just a few minutes of using KDE.

What I'd like to know is... What's Linus so damn upset about? Having never really used or followed the development of KDE, I don't know what he's talking about or what I might be missing out on. What will be new in KDE 4.2 that's not in KDE 4? What was in KDE 3 that's not in KDE 4? I'd love some background about this from some who has used KDE for a few years to let me in on the gossip.

[etnlIcarus]

I've used GNOME since starting with Ubuntu 3 years ago and have never found anything functionally that I don't like about it (although I think it looks about as plain as Windows 95 graphically so it rather ugly looking). I love the way KDE looks right about now, but little things about it kind of confuse me and I end up switching back to GNOME after just a few minutes of using KDE.

What I'd like to know is... What's Linus so damn upset about? Having never really used or followed the development of KDE, I don't know what he's talking about or what I might be missing out on. What will be new in KDE 4.2 that's not in KDE 4? What was in KDE 3 that's not in KDE 4? I'd love some background about this from some who has used KDE for a few years to let me in on the gossip.

Linus originally gave the Gnome project **** because of their extreme orthodoxy and reluctance to do anything; address usability or architectural shortcomings, etc.

Now he's giving KDE **** mostly because the 4 series has been pretty unstable and buggy for many users - himself included, though I suspect we'll soon be reading another nothing 'news' article about how he's tried 4.2 or 4.3 and has been really impressed with the progress, etc.

Of course the difference between the two situations is that when he railed against Gnome, he advised users to use KDE. On the other hand, while he's said he's currently using Gnome, he hasn't publicly suggested users make the switch too.

Edit: And Ioky, reading your posts made my head hurt. ](*,)

[creek23]

A lot of people look up to him.
I don't.

I respect his works for the kernel, tho.

[the8thstar]

Palmer uses Windows. Ok.
Jobs uses Mac. Ok.
Torvalds uses Gnome. Ok.

So what? I don't care about these guys decisions' when I can make my own.

[the8thstar]

It would be pointless to say anything that is objective, especially there isn't anything that is in true objective. Just keep the eye and mind open, and let idea in should do the most good. It would be a shame to a linux user to have a "closed" mind. A "open" should welcome anything and idea. You can hate people, however, you hate them because they aren't you. Then there isn't anything you can really love/like. ;)

Are you sure you're being objective, since you said that "there isn't anything that is in true objective"?

[Aenoble]

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/01/choices-and-punishment.html
Aarons blog reaction.

You guys are putting words in Linus' mouth and making too big a deal of this.

[aaaantoine]

I can vouch for KDE 4.1+.

I might not be Linus, but I've been using KDE 4.1 for over a month now.

[SunnyRabbiera]

I can vouch for KDE 4.1+.

I might not be Linus, but I've been using KDE 4.1 for over a month now.

I cant, 4.1 to me might as well not existed...
Lets see how 4.2 does though

[bigbrovar]

Linus Torvalds is just another Linux user. It doesn't matter what DE he uses, any more than it matters what DE I use.

too bad the thank you button is gone .. couldn't agree with you less

[Aenoble]

So you agree very little? :P

[blueshiftoverwatch]

http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2009/01/choices-and-punishment.html
Aarons blog reaction.

You guys are putting words in Linus' mouth and making too big a deal of this.
Good response article.

[MickS]

Well I use KDE4.2 beta and love it, just thought I would say that for a bit of balance.

Mick

[dsiembab]

Well maybe linus actually wants to get work done on his computer, instead of playing games and spending any amount of time setting up kde4. I really liked kde3 and when comparing the two kde3 and kde4 you have to think ¨what are they thinking about?¨ Why would any programmer or group of programmers want to alienate their users like so? The programmers ego is so frail, but every thing kde has done they have done it to themselves. Gnome may not be as user friendly as kde but at least I can get some work done on it instead of playing with the new awesome ¨plasmoids¨.

[bruce89]

I wonder what he meant by his secondary button not doing what he wants it to do.

[MaxIBoy]

In KDE, you can change what's in your right-click menu. Something I hope is going to be in GNOME 3.

[bruce89]

In KDE, you can change what's in your right-click menu. Something I hope is going to be in GNOME 3.

Probably not, GNOME 3.x will be the same configuration wise.

Which context menu(s) is/are this/these anyway?

[forrestcupp]

also ironically, the right mouse button issue was the same reason he disliked gnome too as well, am i right?The main reason he didn't like Gnome is because they didn't respect him when he submitted code to enhance the project. He was kind of a jerk about it when he accused the Gnome team of writing sloppy code.


Linus Torvalds is just another Linux user. It doesn't matter what DE he uses, any more than it matters what DE I use.Lol.

That's like saying George Washington was just another regular American citizen and he doesn't deserve respect for anything he did.

[bruce89]

The main reason he didn't like Gnome is because they didn't respect him when he submitted code to enhance the project. He was kind of a jerk about it when he accused the Gnome team of writing sloppy code.

Were these the metacity patches?


That's like saying George Washington was just another regular American citizen and he doesn't deserve respect for anything he did.

Well, GNOME has nothing to do with the Linux Kernel.

[RATM_Owns]

I can see it now... a KDE bug report that says "Linus Torvalds uses GNOME"...

[cardinals_fan]

Lol.

That's like saying George Washington was just another regular American citizen and he doesn't deserve respect for anything he did.
Not really. I don't think "You know, George Washington rode a horse for transportation. I should do that too!"

Respecting someone != having the same opinions as they do.

[etnlIcarus]

I really liked kde3 and when comparing the two kde3 and kde4 you have to think ¨what are they thinking about?¨ Why would any programmer or group of programmers want to alienate their users like so? The programmers ego is so frail, but every thing kde has done they have done it to themselves. Gnome may not be as user friendly as kde but at least I can get some work done on it instead of playing with the new awesome ¨plasmoids¨.The whole point of KDE4 is to do something new; to bring the desktop paradigm up-to-scratch and into this century. They've done a pretty decent job of it, too; they just haven't ironed out all the bugs yet. If anyone listened to the hundreds of KDE people yelling at the top of their lungs, "4.0 is not a stable, end-user release. Keep using 3", there'd probably only be one quarter of the butthurt users out there, pissed because the first actual stable release still wasn't quite up-to-snuff.


Lol.

That's like saying George Washington was just another regular American citizen and he doesn't deserve respect for anything he did.

Washington never used the Internet. I suggest you follow suit. It's disrespectful to his memory and painful for the rest of us.

[Skripka]

I can see it now... a KDE bug report that says "Linus Torvalds uses GNOME"...
Who is this Torvalds guy anyway?

[cardinals_fan]

The whole point of KDE4 is to do something new; to bring the desktop paradigm up-to-scratch and into this century. They've done a pretty decent job of it, too; they just haven't ironed out all the bugs yet. If anyone listened to the hundreds of KDE people yelling at the top of their lungs, "4.0 is not a stable, end-user release. Keep using 3", there'd probably only be one quarter of the butthurt users out there, pissed because the first actual stable release still wasn't quite up-to-snuff.

What's the point of being in this century if I was more effective in the 90s? ;)

[jimi_hendrix]

good...gnome is superior </opinion>

[etnlIcarus]

What's the point of being in this century if I was more effective in the 90s? ;)

That depends on the user. I, too, am stuck in the past. I look upon Win95 as the holy grail of desktops. However, I can appreciate what the KDE team are doing for users who didn't potentially grow up in the 90's.

[cardinals_fan]

That depends on the user. I, too, am stuck in the past. I look upon Win95 as the holy grail of desktops. However, I can appreciate what the KDE team are doing for users who didn't potentially grow up in the 90's.
It's kind of sad to feel old when I'm only 15... :)

[MaxIBoy]

It's kind of sad to feel old when I'm only 15... :)
Same here.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/4873/toooldforthisshitun1.png

[Changturkey]

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc336/changturkey/800px-Picard_Facepalm.jpg

[Skripka]

That depends on the user. I, too, am stuck in the past. I look upon Win95 as the holy grail of desktops.

Dear Gawd....you weren't experimenting with anything at the time, were you?

[etnlIcarus]

Dear Gawd....you weren't experimenting with anything at the time, were you?

Only red cordial and wizz fizz.

[maybeway36]

I switched to GNOME for the same reason. I miss the Konq integration and the Run Command bar on my panel, but KDE4 just isn't configurable enough for it to act exactly like KDE3 the way I want to. (I have similar gripes with Windows 7 and its Start menu.)
Even running Linux Mint 6 (Ubuntu 8.10) I still use the KDE 3 versions of KGet and KTorrent on GNOME.

[Simian Man]

He also uses Fedora (http://linuxpoison.blogspot.com/2008/07/linus-torvalds-uses-fedora-core-9.html). Everyone should switch!!!1

[perlluver]

I can appreciate what KDE is doing, trying to get up to par and be more into the future. But at the same time, KDE 4.2, is just way to slow for me. If I had more money I would upgrade my video card and memory. But at this time, I don't have that option, so I use gnome, which is less memory and visually intensive. I hope that in the near future I can enjoy KDE 4.2.

At this time looking at the roadmap for Gnome, it doesn't look like they are doing anything to special for the 3.0 release. At least KDE had the fortitude to go ahead and do something drastic so that they can stay up to date with the game. I wish Gnome would do the same.

[motang]

Yeh KDE4 so far has not been fun, but I will keep an eye on KDE 4.2.
I feel the same way, thinking about installing Kubuntu 9.04 on my notebook once it's out!

[MikeTheC]

"Only in mathematics will we find truth."
-- Cardinal Borusa, Chancellor
Time Lord Academy, Gallifrey

[cardinals_fan]

"only in mathematics will we find truth."
-- cardinal borusa, chancellor
time lord academy, gallifrey
+1

[kk0sse54]

I can appreciate what KDE is doing, trying to get up to par and be more into the future. But at the same time, KDE 4.2, is just way to slow for me. If I had more money I would upgrade my video card and memory. But at this time, I don't have that option, so I use gnome, which is less memory and visually intensive. I hope that in the near future I can enjoy KDE 4.2.

At this time looking at the roadmap for Gnome, it doesn't look like they are doing anything to special for the 3.0 release. At least KDE had the fortitude to go ahead and do something drastic so that they can stay up to date with the game. I wish Gnome would do the same.

I've actually experienced the opposite, a minimal install of KDE4 has been a lot faster for me than gnome has been, especially without all those pointless kde effects (for me at least).

[etnlIcarus]

"Only in mathematics will we find truth."
-- Cardinal Borusa, Chancellor
Time Lord Academy, Gallifrey


+1

Am I the only person who found this mathematical pun hilarious?

[MikeTheC]

+1

Why'd you lower-case my quoted text?

[cardinals_fan]

Why'd you lower-case my quoted text?
The forum does that.

[CraigPaleo]

The forum does that.

Why did etnlIcarus's quote show up with the original formatting?

[MikeTheC]

Why'd you lower-case my quoted text?

The forum does that.

Why did etnlIcarus's quote show up with the original formatting?
Busted! :)

[vishzilla]

Well, i feel KDE is gaining more functionality with each release. This is the 1st time I have installed KDE (KDEmod 4.2 RC) on my system and I'm liking it. I have test driven KDE 4.0 and 4.1 and I must say KDE has improved leaps and bounds. I am sure Linus, will one day come back to KDE. I know he prefers the KDE approach to Linux more than GNOME. And I don't want to start a flame right here, but I prefer GNOME for its simplicity and KDE is just good for a change.

[cardinals_fan]

Busted! :)
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=905183

[MikeTheC]

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=905183

Busted board!

[-X

Actually, there's a lot of quirks on this board. At the moment it is working, but it seems to have a LOT of lagging, and a LOT of downtime. What gets me is so far the only thing that "TPTB" seem to know how to do is to shut features off. It's really beginning to take away from my sense of satisfaction in coming here and participating.

[awakatanka]

He has more problems with his distro that switched to kde4.0 without having the choose. He couldn't go back to kde3.5 because they used kde4.0 only.

And he talks about kde4.0 and not about kde4.1 our kde4.2 that have more options again.

[forrestcupp]

Washington never used the Internet. I suggest you follow suit. It's disrespectful to his memory and painful for the rest of us.

Wow! Do you hate the founder of Linux so much that you feel the need to ridicule someone who is somewhat supporting him? You really think my respect for Linus is offensive enough that you want me to stay off the internet?

[mips]

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc336/changturkey/800px-Picard_Facepalm.jpg

ROTFLMAO!

Thats one classic picture :)

[etnlIcarus]

Wow! Do you hate the founder of Linux so much that you feel the need to ridicule someone who is somewhat supporting him? You really think my respect for Linus is offensive enough that you want me to stay off the internet?
Oh god, some people...

Your idiotic suggestion that Linus' choice of DE should affect our decisions out of, "respect", is offensive and why I'd rather people like you find a hobby besides the Internet. Your implication that, because I don't agree with you, I must, "hate the founder of Linux", is doubly offensive.

I refer you to the above facpalm'ing.

[Giant Speck]

"Only in mathematics will we find truth."
-- Cardinal Borusa, Chancellor
Time Lord Academy, Gallifrey

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/purity.png

Oh, and to the gigantic facepalm picture, this tiny picture is enough to get the point across: http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5781/facepalmus1.gif

[cardinals_fan]

Wow! Do you hate the founder of Linux so much that you feel the need to ridicule someone who is somewhat supporting him? You really think my respect for Linus is offensive enough that you want me to stay off the internet?
I personally admire Linus Torvalds, both for his programming skills and his lighthearted/sardonic view of the world. However, he and I have different needs, desires, and ways of getting things done. His choice of DE is based solely on his personal needs and methods. He is completely entitled to his choice, but it really doesn't offer me any reason to do things his way when I'm familiar and happy with my own.

I admire the Dalai Lama for his moral courage and wisdom, but I'm not going to convert to Tibetan Buddhism just because he believes in and teaches it.

[Skripka]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/purity.png

Oh, and to the gigantic facepalm picture, this tiny picture is enough to get the point across: http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/5781/facepalmus1.gif


Mathematics is just applied symbolic logic.

[Faolan84]

My mom uses Gnome too, but I don't endorse it that way. KDE 4.1 was a big screw up: another beta quality release. The jump from 2.x to 3.x on KDE was not nearly as bad. 3.x had obvious improvements in function and stability whereas 4.x merely looks better but can be quite unstable. It even has a tendency to hard freeze.

Gnome on the other hand is working just fine, is very mature, and for the most part just works. Yes, there are things about KDE 3.5.x that I miss, but GNOME itself isn't really that bad and in my opinion is the best solution out there right now. 3.x is dead and 4.x is not ready. The only thing I really miss is K3B's ability to use cdrdao because my Cyberdrv CW058D CD-R/RW drive doesn't work all that well with wodim and cdrecord.

I do believe Linus has a point here. The hubris of the KDE devs were so great that in the end they themselves could not even admit that they failed. In order for KDE to have any future it would be wise that when the 4.x branch is truely mature they make a 5.x release and apologize for all the mess they made. Then keep a policy of having odd stable releases and even dev releases.

Secondly, the distros themselves are at fault for allowing the unstable 4.x branch to be released as default KDE. The real issue here is that the release of KDE 4.x may have tarnished the image of Linux as a whole in the business world. The distros should have took into consideration the KDE wasn't business class quality. It's a good thing the RedHat, SuSE, Debian, and Ubuntu all default to Gnome. But regardless this kind of fiasco isn't looked on too kindly by many companies and may have influenced their decisions about desktop Linux.

I hope the Gnome learns from this and makes sure that when they finally release 3.0 that it is as every bit as functional, stable, and fast as 2-FINAL. They shouldn't rush the release and if it take three to five years to release then that is okay as long as the 2.x branch doesn't get neglected and some backports are mad to ease the transition.

[Skripka]

My mom uses Gnome too, but I don't endorse it that way. KDE 4.1 was a big screw up: another beta quality release. The jump from 2.x to 3.x on KDE was not nearly as bad. 3.x had obvious improvements in function and stability whereas 4.x merely looks better but can be quite unstable. It even has a tendency to hard freeze.

Gnome on the other hand is working just fine, is very mature, and for the most part just works. Yes, there are things about KDE 3.5.x that I miss, but GNOME itself isn't really that bad and in my opinion is the best solution out there right now. 3.x is dead and 4.x is not ready. The only thing I really miss is K3B's ability to use cdrdao because my Cyberdrv CW058D CD-R/RW drive doesn't work all that well with wodim and cdrecord.

I do believe Linus has a point here. The hubris of the KDE devs were so great that in the end they themselves could not even admit that they failed. In order for KDE to have any future it would be wise that when the 4.x branch is truely mature they make a 5.x release and apologize for all the mess they made. Then keep a policy of having odd stable releases and even dev releases.

Secondly, the distros themselves are at fault for allowing the unstable 4.x branch to be released as default KDE. The real issue here is that the release of KDE 4.x may have tarnished the image of Linux as a whole in the business world. The distros should have took into consideration the KDE wasn't business class quality. It's a good thing the RedHat, SuSE, Debian, and Ubuntu all default to Gnome. But regardless this kind of fiasco isn't looked on too kindly by many companies and may have influenced their decisions about desktop Linux.

I hope the Gnome learns from this and makes sure that when they finally release 3.0 that it is as every bit as functional, stable, and fast as 2-FINAL. They shouldn't rush the release and if it take three to five years to release then that is okay as long as the 2.x branch doesn't get neglected and some backports are mad to ease the transition.

The problem was NOT hubris on the part of KDE devs. KDE4.0 was termed "bleeding edge". The problem was users, expecting the impossible. Devs LIKE "release early, release often", and that is what KDE4 was. It was even labled "bleeding edge", and folks apparently didn't read.


Windows Vista was primarily a marketing disaster, apart from a few rough issues. It by and large works and yet has been written off. Why? Because with 6 +years of Windows XP-people EXPECTED a NEW release to be every bit as stable as the old. The same occured with KDE4. People got used to the KDE3 series and expected more of the same. KDE4 was a top to bottom rewrite, for better or worse, yet people still had the same impossible expectations of functionality and stabilit at the 4.0 release.

Guess what. It does not work that way.

On OSX most long timers warn newbies wanting to upgrade to the latest and greatest to wait until X.*.3 or so-until things are ironed out in the new version. Windows is similar, a new version normally requires a full SP before things get stable.

KDE4.1.* has shaped up nicely, and I've been enjoying 4.2 since Beta2--and it has been stable, apart from a few issues.

Gnome3 will be same old same old Gnome. I mean that as a simple statement of fact-nothing more. The Gnome devs appear to have chose to declare Gnome 2.30 will be rechristened Gnome 3.0--yes it will be stable...because there is nothing that new or astounding.

[deepclutch]

kdemod with kde3 in archlinux is what kde should be ideally.
--
anybody remember tux magazine who were(now dead rip) famous for Gnome Bashing.I and many a longtime Gnome users were very depressed due to their emphasis on enforcing kde only as the lone DE for GNU/Linux.now ,Gnome bashing was the norm during that time while Gnome steadily increasing in its quality overall.
--
then during Linus's unfortunate comment on Gnome sucks!(obviously for a kde fan) ,I remember from slashdot to elsewhere online it was Gnome bashing.I guess Ubuntu is One Strong reason for eliminating this Kde bias which was there a year ago.then ,Gnome is accused of verry 90's looking UI and all are still customizable.less buggy is another good thing which hardly anyone mention.Now there is no kde bashing ,just remembering.. :) as somewhere in www ,it is "Gnome users and kde fans"!

[doorknob60]

4.1 and 4.2 are great, 4.0 was complete and utter crap. So yeah, it's significantly improved over the past year.

[ZuLuuuuuu]

Linus seems to be a fanatic guy about his choices. He does not believe that something may be a matter of taste. He hates C++, he hates SVN, and he used to hate Gnome and he hate people choosing them, as well. When he is doing statements about his choices he basically says everytime: "Gnome is bad" instead of saying "I don't like Gnome". Or "People who like SVN should be in a mental institution" instead of "I don't like SVN".

Beside him being a really talented coder, I don't like this kind of ignoring messages of him. And I usually ignore this kind of messages when I hear that it comes from Linus.

[Erunno]

I have only skimmed through this topic but it is noteworthy to say that Torvalds uses Fedora. And Fedora was daft enough to push KDE 4.0 as their primary desktop while at the same time deprecating KDE 3.5 which naturally lead to all kind of people being very unhappy about the state of their desktop, including Linus.

Now, I don't want to place the blame solely on Fedora as the 4.0 release was handled with the grace of a stranded wale and the KDE ministry of propaganda deserves every bit of flak they get for it to this very day. Now, Fedora also had to learn the hard way that, while they are bleeding edge by definition, that there is even a limit to how much their users want to bleed (small cut is ok, losing limbs is asking for it).

[cl333r]

In a recent Computerworld interview, Linus revealed that he's switched to Gnome — this despite launching a heavily critical broadside against Gnome just a few years ago. His reason? He thinks KDE 4 is a 'disaster.' Although it's improved recently, he'll find many who agree with this prognosis, and KDE 4 can be painful to use.
I would use the windows desktop, I find it a lot better in many ways than Gnome (Gnome in turn is better in a few areas), it's windows itself I can't stand (viruses, eulas, price and alike), but I give M$ credit where credit is due.

[Keyper7]

To be fair, I don't think Linus wants to be a major influence of any kind. I believe his controversial statements and recommendations are made as an ordinary Linux user, not as "teh creatoh". He is known for being rather vocal of his opinions, but I think it's the opposite of fanatism. It's more like "people with common sense won't do anything just because I said so, so I won't waste time worrying about political correctness".

[etnlIcarus]

I would use the windows desktop, I find it a lot better in many ways than Gnome (Gnome in turn is better in a few areas), it's windows itself I can't stand (viruses, eulas, price and alike), but I give M$ credit where credit is due.The windows explorer shell was good back in 95, 98: complete, relatively user-friendly, generally avoided the visual information overload you see on Windows today or KDE 3/4*

*was just playing around with the KOffice betas. My god, those apps are visually intimidating. Toolboxes all over the place, filled with seemingly randomly arranged, nondescript icons and widgets. Been a long, long time since I've felt out-of-my-depth with an MSWord clone.


To be fair, I don't think Linus wants to be a major influence of any kind. I believe his controversial statements and recommendations are made as an ordinary Linux user, not as "teh creatoh". He is known for being rather vocal of his opinions, but I think it's the opposite of fanatism. It's more like "people with common sense won't do anything just because I said so, so I won't waste time worrying about political correctness".

As has been stated previously in this thread, often his passionate opinions have spilled over into advocacy; advising users to abandon Gnome, etc. In this instance, however, he hasn't gone as far as to attempt to sabotage a project he didn't like (likely because his current usage of Gnome is just a necessary evil, rather than a preference).

[Hallvor]

To this day I still can`t understand why so many KDE distros pushed KDE 4.0 despite clear warnings from the developers. Everyone knew that KDE 4 would have less features and be a lot less stable than KDE 3.5.x.

[Keyper7]

As has been stated previously in this thread, often his passionate opinions have spilled over into advocacy; advising users to abandon Gnome, etc.

My point is: I think he's not doing that in a "I, as the creator of Linux, advise...", but in a "I, as an user, advise...".

[aceinthenight]

Kind of. It was the reason why he was not fond of the Mac he got from Apple.

Despite the fact Apple mice have been multi-buttoned for years now...

[Mason Whitaker]

Despite the fact Apple mice have been multi-buttoned for years now...Always frustrates me whenever people say, "Well Macs only have one button!"
Honestly, you don't need to use a one-click mouse if you don't want to...I don't...

[Tom Mann]

What wasn't mentioned in the OP is that Linus said he would re-evaluate KDE in the switch, and it's also noted that GNOME are about to break a lot of their desktop for their 3.0 efforts.

The moral of the story - this isn't about Linus hating KDE; it's about using what works, vs what your distro thinks you should use.

Oh and :KS to KDE4.2 - it's really matured!

[cardinals_fan]

The problem was NOT hubris on the part of KDE devs. KDE4.0 was termed "bleeding edge". The problem was users, expecting the impossible. Devs LIKE "release early, release often", and that is what KDE4 was. It was even labled "bleeding edge", and folks apparently didn't read.
I'm going to keep on beating my dead horse over this. "Release early, release often" means (at least to me) that development versions of projects are available immediately to allow collaborative development. It does not mean that software should be officially released when it is not stable or complete.


The moral of the story - this isn't about Linus hating KDE; it's about using what works, vs what your distro thinks you should use.

The moral of the story - this isn't about Linus hating KDE; it's about the media and blogosphere hyping and sensationalizing something that wasn't really news in the first place.

[TheUnabeefer]

I'm going to keep on beating my dead horse over this. "Release early, release often" means (at least to me) that development versions of projects are available immediately to allow collaborative development. It does not mean that software should be officially released when it is not stable or complete.


If KDE had not released 4.0 publically, they wouldn't have been able to get such insanely strong feedback on what they needed to fix, or what their users expected from them... In hindsight, it was a perfect release plan.

[Keyper7]

I'm going to keep on beating my dead horse over this. "Release early, release often" means (at least to me) that development versions of projects are available immediately to allow collaborative development. It does not mean that software should be officially released when it is not stable or complete.

KDE 4.0 was stable and complete in terms of API. That was the main point of the "point zero". Just like Wine reached 1.0 without being fully compatible with all Windows applications in the world: it meant its API was stable.

While I do agree that the users have no fault for not knowing this (it was documented but not evident), part of the blame lies on distros that were too quick in dropping 3.5: they weren't supposed to. New versions of 3.5 are still being released.

[MikeTheC]

I'm going to start out by saying I have nothing invested (that is, time, knowledge, emotions, etc.) in the politics behind any of the DE projects. My preference is for Gnome, but it's not a "Gnome instead of KDE" notion so much as a "I've tried several DEs, and of any of them Gnome suits me the best" one.

Ok, so that being said...

I am really sick and tired of hearing what to me is little more than some of the F/OSS developers -- and a lot of you users -- hiding behind the apron-strings of "this is a community-developed platform, not a commercial one". Linux is, like it or not, an software environment platform, and no matter how you want to look at it, it is a direct competitor to several other commercial platforms, most notably of which are Mac OS X and Windows. That means, regardless how "community" this platform is, there is an obligation and responsibility on the part of the developers to be professional about the code they are producing, whether it's done in the hallowed halls of some company paying them to do development work for Linux, or in someone's basement in Cleveland, Ohio right next to the stack of empty pizza boxes and crate-and-a-half of Mountain Dew bottles.

I'm all in favor of the "Cathedral and the Bazaar" (a fascinating paper, you folks should actually read it sometime), but that is no excuse not to organize and have leadership and the professional integrity to maintain the stable existing release until (at least) the new release is stable. VLC, Mozilla and dozens of other F/OSS projects I could probably name don't seem to have those sorts of problems, and I really can't think of a more critical piece of "user land" software than the DE. Why should it be immune?

A previous poster said Linux is judged on how, at the most fundamental level, the user is able to interact with the resultant "system", and that a good portion of what goes into such judgment is stability. Nothing squeaks worse than something that's not ready. Some of you want to blame the users for using it, but they're not the problem here. You could blame the distros themselves for including it, and while I can certainly buy into the notion that they bear some responsibility, I'll go back to what I said in a previous post: Why would the KDE developers put out a release that's still being developed and bug-squashed and call it anything other than an experimental or developmental release?

Looked at another way, if you're a distro maintainer, wouldn't you feel a little bit burned for being given a DE only to find out afterward that the folks who said it was a "release" version basically lied? I can't speak for anyone else here, but if I were putting out a distro and had that happen to me, I would have to seriously reconsider if I wanted to continue to include their software in the future.

And what a lot of you folks seem not to get (particularly those of you arguing over Linus and Gnome) is that this is fundamentally not about Gnome. It's about KDE.

Go back and re-read the announcement this thread is all hot-to-trot about. Linus isn't so much switching "to" Gnome as he is switching "from" KDE. Linus loves KDE and has numerous times used his bully pulpit to sing it's praises. He's simply been faced with a practical reality -- KDE 4 lacks the features he wants and the stability he needs. My point (now and above) is that his switching "from" is significant because it points to substantiative issues with KDE, issues which I feel support my earlier contentions. Clearly, this is not just a single-release issue but rather an architectural one, as I cannot imagine someone like Linus leaving KDE over a single x.x.x<--- release.



On OSX most long timers warn newbies wanting to upgrade to the latest and greatest to wait until X.*.3 or so-until things are ironed out in the new version. Windows is similar, a new version normally requires a full SP before things get stable.
I'm sorry, but I have to take issue with what you said here.

We Mac users (I have a foot in each camp) don't tell new users to avoid X.*.<3 releases because of the system being too untested to be stable or production-ready. 10.1.<3, 10.2.<3, 10.3.<3, 10.4.<3 and 10.5.<3 were all properly stable, fully production-ready OS releases, thank you very much. Arguably, 10.5.0 was a bit rough, but to try and establish a parity between 10.5.0 and KDE 4.0 (based on all accounts) is simply and patently false.

Moreover, there's no direct correlation between Microsoft's "Service Pack" releases and the incrementation of Apple's .x.1, .x.2... releases. Some are significant, but most aren't (or certainly not nearly as) significant as the various SPs Windows has been given over the years.

[MikeTheC]

i'm going to keep on beating my dead horse over this. "release early, release often" means (at least to me) that development versions of projects are available immediately to allow collaborative development. It does not mean that software should be officially released when it is not stable or complete.

+1

[kevdog]

MikeTheC

Give me a hint on the source of your signature!

[MikeTheC]

If KDE had not released 4.0 publically, they wouldn't have been able to get such insanely strong feedback on what they needed to fix, or what their users expected from them... In hindsight, it was a perfect release plan.

I'm sorry, but that's gotta be one of the most lame-brained comments I've ever read on UbuntuForums.

[MikeTheC]

MikeTheC

Give me a hint on the source of your signature!

A hint, eh? Alright... I'll actually give you two:

1. 1985
2. Laser

How's that?

[cardinals_fan]

A hint, eh? Alright... I'll actually give you two:

1. 1985
2. Laser

How's that?
Google answers it pretty well then ;)

[MikeTheC]

Google answers it pretty well then ;)

It does indeed... :p

[kevdog]

Sorry about the confusion and bother! I was waylaid by the flux capacitor in 1985. :)

[MikeTheC]

And guys, if you think "Real Genius" was an interesting conceptual movie, you've gotta check out this link (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel5/7230/19501/00906701.pdf?temp=x).

It would seem Neal Israel, the writer of Real Genius, wasn't fooling around when he had the character Kent working on a "phase conjugate target tracking system".

There are times I almost wish I didn't know (or couldn't guess at) the things a rich country and near-unlimited technological resources could produce.

Of course, OTOH, if such a system were pointed outward and could slice up a target like Apophis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/99942_Apophis), then it would help to ensure the KDE dev team had enough time to sort out all the bugs and produce a stable DE. :p

[etnlIcarus]

I'm starting to think from the continual and compounding rage over KDE 4.0, the problem isn't so much the 4.0 as it is the KDE. For such a fundamental re-write, identifying with the K pedigree was perhaps a mistake.


but that is no excuse not to organize and have leadership and the professional integrity to maintain the stable existing release until (at least) the new release is stable Last I knew, 3.5.x was still being maintained. When was it's official end-of-life?


VLC, Mozilla and dozens of other F/OSS projects I could probably name don't seem to have those sorts of problems Actually, Mozilla has very much had those problems. Ever wondered why there's so many people on a linux forum using a proprietary web browser?


I really can't think of a more critical piece of "user land" software than the DE. Why should it be immune? You do have to be practical. Mostly new stack, radically new and different overall UI vision and also the job of porting what is probably the biggest suite of applications out there. Couple this with the underlying graphical server and all it's quirks and shortcomings, which is largely out of the K team's control, and you're left with a situation a tad bit different than comparisons between the Video Lan Project, Mozilla and the K Team can handle.


Why would the KDE developers put out a release that's still being developed and bug-squashed and call it anything other than an experimental or developmental release?Again, they did not claim it was a stable release. They hyped the **** out of it but who could blame a developer for being exited about a massive rethink of the desktop.

Going with only my own anecdotal experience (which is really all any of us have, anyway); I hated the KDE 3.x series so I didn't pay much attention to the news and hype about 4.0. I fully expected 4.0 would end up being an even less elegant desktop solution than it's predecessor so when my RSS feeds came up with 4.0 headlines, I'd usually just mark them as, "Read", and not even read them.

However, even with my willful ignorance, when 4.0 came out, I knew it was an unstable release because that message had still been adequately conveyed to me - someone who wasn't even listening to begin with.

I honestly believe a large chunk of users were so excited, they reverted to a child-like state where only the information they wanted to hear stuck and, like a child being taken to a theme park, these users found themselves getting lost because they hadn't heeded their parent's warnings.

[Giant Speck]

Last I knew, 3.5.x was still being maintained. When was it's official end-of-life?

From the KDE Wiki End User FAQ page (http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=End%20User%20FAQ#_Is_KDE_3_going_to _be_abandoned_):


Is KDE 3 going to be abandoned?

No. There is no EOL (end of life) planned for KDE 3. It will continue to exist and be used as long as there are people using it. However, there is no guarantee of bug fixes and maintenance for KDE 3.5 other than that given by your vendor and possible support contracts.

[phrostbyte]

If KDE had not released 4.0 publically, they wouldn't have been able to get such insanely strong feedback on what they needed to fix, or what their users expected from them... In hindsight, it was a perfect release plan.

++

Open source works much differently then closed source. The product has to be in the hands of the users easily and early because the users are often also the developers. KDE4 would have gone nowhere fast if they didn't release it, because it had so few developers pre-KDE4.0

[etnlIcarus]

From the KDE Wiki End User FAQ page (http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-index.php?page=End%20User%20FAQ#_Is_KDE_3_going_to _be_abandoned_):

So it's not being actively maintained but they're still accepting upstream bug fixes?

[Giant Speck]

So it's not being actively maintained but they're still accepting upstream bug fixes?

I guess so.

[forrestcupp]

Oh god, some people...

Your idiotic suggestion that Linus' choice of DE should affect our decisions out of, "respect", is offensive and why I'd rather people like you find a hobby besides the Internet. Your implication that, because I don't agree with you, I must, "hate the founder of Linux", is doubly offensive.

I refer you to the above facpalm'ing.

I don't give a rat's behind what DE you, Linus, or anyone else uses. I never suggested that anyone should use any DE based out of "respect" for Linus.

The comparison I made about George Washington was a response to someone's flippant statement that Linus is just a Linux user like me, and it doesn't matter what DE he uses anymore than what I use. While it's true that his choice of DE doesn't need to affect my decision, he's not "just a Linux user like me." He's the founder of Linux.

That was the whole point of my response. It had to do with an ignorant disrespect for the founder of the OS that most people here are using, and nothing to do with people's choice of DE. I mostly use Vista, for crying out loud! I don't care if you like KDE.

Please pay closer attention to the line of conversation before you rudely state that I should stay off the internet. And enjoy your KDE.

[deepclutch]

If Linus supports Kde ,then His words are divine.If Linus found kde not usable ,then Linus is rubbish.SO sane in thinking?huh?

[cprofitt]

We Mac users (I have a foot in each camp) don't tell new users to avoid X.*.<3 releases because of the system being too untested to be stable or production-ready. 10.1.<3, 10.2.<3, 10.3.<3, 10.4.<3 and 10.5.<3 were all properly stable, fully production-ready OS releases, thank you very much. Arguably, 10.5.0 was a bit rough, but to try and establish a parity between 10.5.0 and KDE 4.0 (based on all accounts) is simply and patently false.

Moreover, there's no direct correlation between Microsoft's "Service Pack" releases and the incrementation of Apple's .x.1, .x.2... releases. Some are significant, but most aren't (or certainly not nearly as) significant as the various SPs Windows has been given over the years.

To date I have not found a single release of OS X to be sufficient for my needs. Stable; yes. Feature 100% ready; no.

[etnlIcarus]

I don't give a rat's behind what DE you, Linus, or anyone else uses. I never suggested that anyone should use any DE based out of "respect" for Linus.

The comparison I made about George Washington was a response to someone's flippant statement that Linus is just a Linux user like me, and it doesn't matter what DE he uses anymore than what I use. While it's true that his choice of DE doesn't need to affect my decision, he's not "just a Linux user like me." He's the founder of Linux.

That was the whole point of my response. It had to do with an ignorant disrespect for the founder of the OS that most people here are using, and nothing to do with people's choice of DE. I mostly use Vista, for crying out loud! I don't care if you like KDE.

Please pay closer attention to the line of conversation before you rudely state that I should stay off the internet. And enjoy your KDE.Well ain't that the pot calling the kettle black:


Linus Torvalds is just another Linux user. It doesn't matter what DE he uses, any more than it matters what DE I use.
Lol.

That's like saying George Washington was just another regular American citizen and he doesn't deserve respect for anything he did.
I followed the, "line of conversation", exactly. You took the DE argument and made it about, "respect". Don't blame me for either your inability to communicate or your inability to distinguish between two separate arguments.

[swoll1980]

I would have to agree that Torvalds being "Just a Linux user" would be like Jobs being just a Mac user, or Gates being just a Windows user. That ship sailed when they became world renowned software gurus

[Ferrat]

I would have to agree that Torvalds being "Just a Linux user" would be like Jobs being just a Mac user, or Gates being just a Windows user. That ship sailed when they became world renowned software gurus

Depends on how you look at it, to quote a legend, Christopher Walken as Bruce Dickinson at SNL:


- Easy, guys.. I put my pants on just like the rest of you -- one leg at a time. Except, once my pants are on, I make gold records.
- Alright, here we go. "Fear... Don't Fear the Reaper" -- take one. Roll it

As a icon he is Linux more or less that I agree with but as a desktop user he isn't more than anyone else, it's about what you look at, any great figure in time, no matter what he/she was great for was just as humble as anyone else when taking a crap :P

[elvinatom]

yup, thats pretty much it ...
I like Linus - for giving Linux to the world. But what DE he prefers - I mean personally - who cares!

[swoll1980]

Depends on how you look at it, to quote a legend, Christopher Walken as Bruce Dickinson at SNL:


no matter what he/she was great for was just as humble as anyone else when taking a crap :P

Well said ;)

[mozychan]

has anyone given kde 4.2 a try yet?

-moose

[etnlIcarus]

Was playing around with the 2nd beta. Cool but obviously not meant for old computers like mine.

[Zlatan]

I can see it now... a KDE bug report that says "Linus Torvalds uses GNOME"...

lol, you made my day!:D

[t0p]

As a icon he is Linux more or less that I agree with but as a desktop user he isn't more than anyone else, it's about what you look at, any great figure in time, no matter what he/she was great for was just as humble as anyone else when taking a crap :P

Huh? Bububut Linus is a god! AND GODS DON'T DEFECATE!!

[Tomatz]

Yeh KDE4 so far has not been fun, but I will keep an eye on KDE 4.2.

It gets worse :(

Shame really.

[Tomatz]

Well ain't that the pot calling the kettle black:

I followed the, "line of conversation", exactly. You took the DE argument and made it about, "respect". Don't blame me for either your inability to communicate or your inability to distinguish between two separate arguments.

Chill out ;)

You will just get the thread closed...

[etnlIcarus]

Chill out ;)

You will just get the thread closed...

Well thanks for bumping that post back up, rather than letting is quietly disappear into the tl;dr portion of this thread.

[Neural oD]

yup, thats pretty much it ...
I like Linus - for giving Linux to the world. But what DE he prefers - I mean personally - who cares!

Exactly - if one likes coffee and another tea - it's not to say who is right - the main thing is that we have the choice between tea and coffee and .... :p

[etnlIcarus]

And thus begins this thread's second life, wherein we compare our favourite DE's to preparations of hot beverages.

Xfce would totally be straight espresso: strong, smooth and uncomplicated.

And before anyone tries to steal espresso out from under me: flux/openbox are hot water. Deal with it.

[Tomatz]

Xfce would totally be straight espresso: strong, smooth and uncomplicated.


Or booze ;)

Gnome would be a nice cold smooth Guinness and KDE would be methylated spirits.

:lolflag:

(just a joke)

[etnlIcarus]

KDE would be one of those fancy drinks which would cause your friends to question your sexuality, were they to witness you drinking it. It's a guilty pleasure and requires far too much effort to prepare. Novelty umbrella included.

[Tomatz]

KDE would be one of those fancy drinks which would cause your friends to question your sexuality, were they to witness you drinking it. It's a guilty pleasure and requires far too much effort to prepare. Novelty umbrella included.


:lolflag:

:popcorn:

[Giant Speck]

KDE would be one of those fancy drinks which would cause your friends to question your sexuality, were they to witness you drinking it. It's a guilty pleasure and requires far too much effort to prepare. Novelty umbrella included.

Best analogy ever.

[cardinals_fan]

And thus begins this thread's second life, wherein we compare our favourite DE's to preparations of hot beverages.

Xfce would totally be straight espresso: strong, smooth and uncomplicated.

And before anyone tries to steal espresso out from under me: flux/openbox are hot water. Deal with it.
dwm would be a bucket of cold water, some tea leaves, and a match. Ratpoison is a block of ice, because you don't really need that hot beverage anyway.

[WitchCraft]

KDE sucks. It always did and it always will.
Hopefully, when he actually uses gnome for more than 5 minutes, Linus will see that gnome is not anymore as bad as he once found it to be.

Just my 4 cents.