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curuxz
December 16th, 2005, 11:25 PM
It may just be me but I realy realy realy am sick to death of all the windows trolls on these boards. It seems that they just come here to make unfounded or totaly incorrect statements then go on to say how they have had bla bla many years of doing bla bla and so they know best. Would they kindly go back from where they came from...or die :D

Personaly I don't troll windows forums going GET LINUX so why the hell should they be doing the same to us, don't like linux, don't like ubuntu...simple solution; there is the door leave and don't come back.

It would be nice if we could have a end to the I hate linux because windows is soo cool threads on a linux forum its realy sad a pathetic to read over and over

manicka
December 16th, 2005, 11:31 PM
I think you are overstating things. These types of posts are few and far between and are usually quickly dealt with by the mods.

curuxz
December 16th, 2005, 11:35 PM
You realy think so? look how many, oh but this is bad or why windows is better threads there are, I mean I can count about 4 on this section of the forums that are active tonight. I think these linux haters need to ask why they are on this site. This is ment to be a positive community and all these arguments are sad :(

manicka
December 16th, 2005, 11:40 PM
I'm not sure which threads you are referring to but if they are there I usually ignore them anyway. On a forum this size it's bound to happen occasionally and flaming them back won't make them go away, it only encourages them.

xequence
December 16th, 2005, 11:43 PM
I'm not sure which threads you are referring to but if they are there I usually ignore them anyway. On a forum this size it's bound to happen occasionally and flaming them back won't make them go away, it only encourages them.

What I dont get is why people who say windows is better are trolls? Most people here think linux is better. Are they trolls? Its all opinion.

LoclynGrey
December 16th, 2005, 11:45 PM
I think the trolls in their own contradicting way strengthen the real reason why people choose Linux over Microsoft.
Maybe Ubuntu forums should open a Troll-ing only forum category where trolls can have their say constructively. Providing of course that Linux people can also have their say in reply.
Some Trolls have some fair and valid points that can be interesting to read, or humorous lol
We should not fight fire with fire, we should fight their fire with our factual evidence. MS windows geeks will always think that their way is the best way. We should listen (read/observe whatever), and then reply with actual facts.

XQC
December 16th, 2005, 11:46 PM
Does anyone else feel swamped with trolls?

Would they kindly go back from where they came from...or die :D
And what exactly are you doing right now?

prizrak
December 16th, 2005, 11:46 PM
Trolls suck, but such is life. Some of these people are prolly pissed cuz some Linux zealot told them Linux is the best thing since the invention of computers themselves and that it will damn near blow you everyday if you use it. Then something doesn't work and they get pissed off cuz they are expectations are too high. Not that it excuses them in any way shape or form but some of those Linux zealots are to blame as well.

teaker1s
December 16th, 2005, 11:46 PM
Ignore it I do

prizrak
December 16th, 2005, 11:51 PM
I think the trolls in their own contradicting way strengthen the real reason why people choose Linux over Microsoft.
Maybe Ubuntu forums should open a Troll-ing only forum category where trolls can have their say constructively. Providing of course that Linux people can also have their say in reply.
Some Trolls have some fair and valid points that can be interesting to read, or humorous lol
We should not fight fire with fire, we should fight their fire with our factual evidence. MS windows geeks will always think that their way is the best way. We should listen (read/observe whatever), and then reply with actual facts.
See the problem here is, that a troll by definition will not listen to fact. You should read the "Anatomy of well intentioned linux troll" and see the dude who was fighting me TO DEATH on every factual (and calm) point I made, completely invalidating it by saying "Windows is better" at one point I asked him what it was better for, you can imagine the response(lack of it)

teaker1s
December 16th, 2005, 11:58 PM
let's face it, people have various degree's of intelligence and as I was once told
"opinions are like arseholes -everyone has one" if you ignore their craving to stir trouble they soon move on.

curuxz
December 16th, 2005, 11:58 PM
I don't mind the odd clam discussion about the merits of each system (or lack of in some cases depending on your point of view) its the way they are on a linux forum starting endless flame wars all the damn time, thats why I hate them so much I would love if just for one day they would relise that people here like linux and just because someone in a forum tells us windows is better we still wont use it and hence cause them to give up and leave.

I know that wont happen but it amazes me what they think they can achive, and I wish people would not reply to their threads and help them expand their pointless arguments :(

And for those that said this thread in its self is a linux troll, i disagree I think saying i want them to leave is a valid point since we have enough problems in our own house sorting out how to make linux even better than it is without being told to give up every day by people with the mentality of 10 year olds. It just makes me sad that they don't relise that ubuntu means linux not windows, ie walk away....keep walking

23meg
December 17th, 2005, 12:12 AM
I'll have to agree that the rate at which we see childish trolling has gone up recently. It happens, and can't be prevented. It's best to state the facts once, and then ignore.

curuxz
December 17th, 2005, 12:15 AM
trouble is its way to much of a waste of the mods time, maybe if there was a troll flag that could be put on certain persistant offenders, it would be nice if the forums were a little more adult and discussions a little less heated

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 12:46 AM
The only way to fight trolls is to ignore them.

Trouble is it's hard to ignore them for the following reasons:

1. Even if all the old users agree "let's ignore them" new Ubuntu users sign up every day. They will respond to trolls.

2. It's not that easy to identify trolls sometimes. At first they may seem well-intentioned or reasonable. Pretty quickly you learn they're just out to stir things up. By then, it's too late.

3. Trolls and their defenders will always use the knee-jerk defenses: A) you can't just call me a troll because I'm advocating Windows and B) you Linux advocates are crazy because you won't admit anything is wrong with Linux. Both A) and B) are usually wrong. The troll is a troll. Almost every Ubuntu user here admits there are pros and cons to both Windows and Ubuntu.

AgenT
December 17th, 2005, 12:57 AM
trouble is its way to much of a waste of the mods time, maybe if there was a troll flag that could be put on certain persistant offenders, it would be nice if the forums were a little more adult and discussions a little less heated

There is the option of reporting a post to the mods using the silly looking pink button. As per adding persistant offenders to a list: you can already do that yourself. The problem with voting, etc. (to flag it for everyone) is that it can and probably would be abused and cause as much trouble as it would solve.

joflow
December 17th, 2005, 12:58 AM
There are linux zealots who think GNU/Linux is an OS ordained by God that is totally flawless and as such any criticism (no matter how constructive it may be) is trolling.

If I go to a windows forum and says "This feature is not so great", "This could be improved", or even "This flat out sucks, MS should do something about this"..I wouldn't expect to be called a troll.

In the gaming community, people who think their gaming platform is perfect, above any type of criticism, and are incapable of having an unbiased opinion are called fanboys. Around here we have alot of Linux fanboys and if you ask me...they are the biggest trolls.

23meg
December 17th, 2005, 01:09 AM
Around here we have alot of Linux fanboys and if you ask me...they are the biggest trolls.Not really. Not on the Ubuntu forums; elsewhere, yes, there are lots.


If I go to a windows forum and says "This feature is not so great", "This could be improved", or even "This flat out sucks, MS should do something about this"..I wouldn't expect to be called a troll.Agreed, the term "troll" is ill-defined. But when you post to a Linux forum the people who are reading you most likely include the people who test, maintain and develop the software, and have a certain level of dedication to it and its ideals. When you post to a Windows forum, you're talking to MS consumers like yourself who are there not for the sake of forming a community but just for getting their problems solved (and that relies on the closed policies of one company), who have no more say on things than you do. Mind the influence that this can have on what can be called trolling.

curuxz
December 17th, 2005, 01:09 AM
There are linux zealots who think GNU/Linux is an OS ordained by God that is totally flawless and as such any criticism (no matter how constructive it may be) is trolling.

If I go to a windows forum and says "This feature is not so great", "This could be improved", or even "This flat out sucks, MS should do something about this"..I wouldn't expect to be called a troll.

In the gaming community, people who think their gaming platform is perfect, above any type of criticism, and are incapable of having an unbiased opinion are called fanboys. Around here we have alot of Linux fanboys and if you ask me...they are the biggest trolls.


Perfect example of kneejerk reaction claiming we are censoring critics. I am not talking about no debate im talking about the endless stream of "Hey doesnt linux suck" threads that get started. Or when advicing people on what packages to use people that jump in and say we dont have this problem on windows or use this windows apps. This at the end of the day is a linux forum we are not suggesting banning windows users I am complaing on how childish they are and how they refuse to exept that ultimately 95% of people here prefer linux if they don't like it don't use it, but stop telling us about it and if you have something to say at least keep it civil. Saying we are zealots is totaly untrue (not to say they don't exist) but if I wanted to talk about windows I would go to a windows forum, I dont and most people here dont so why are these people here....simple fact is they are sad pathetic lossers who love kicking the bee's nest to see what happens. Its got to the point where its tiersum to go through threads looking for normal conversation or having good threads ruined when flame wars break out.

I accept there are methods to report threads/people but personaly I dont want to take a second of the admins time away from dapper work just to help fight windows noobs with big mouths. I wish they would just grow up

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 01:11 AM
If I go to a windows forum and says "This feature is not so great", "This could be improved", or even "This flat out sucks, MS should do something about this"..I wouldn't expect to be called a troll.
Show me one single instance of someone calmly writing something like "I really like Ubuntu, but this one feature is not so great. Can anyone help me fix it?" and a Linux "fanboy" replying, "You're a troll!"

Trolls don't simply say some one feature is not so great. Please.

teaker1s
December 17th, 2005, 01:12 AM
need a don't feed the trolls sign;)

curuxz
December 17th, 2005, 01:14 AM
Seriously though, what is the best they are looking for. Do they honestly think that we will all go..."yea good point lets reformat to windows and abandon all this silly linux stuff" come on...

23meg
December 17th, 2005, 01:18 AM
They're not looking for a response. Most of them don't even have the ability to take in any response; they just repeat themselves and make you repeat yourself. All they're looking to do is to throw some mud (and FUD) and run.

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 01:18 AM
I think just about any reasonable user will agree with these statements:

1. People should use whatever operating system(s) works for them.

2. There's no point in criticizing an operating system unless you want to just blow off steam, are planning to contribute code or money to improving it, or just want to start a flame war.

3. There exist unreasonable parties in Linux, Windows, and Mac camps.

4. The word troll is often misused (overused?), but it does, in fact, describe a very real forum behavior, and that behavior does appear sometimes on Linux forums, including this one.

curuxz
December 17th, 2005, 01:21 AM
I sadly agree :( shame this board is not above such a comman problem

joflow
December 17th, 2005, 01:29 AM
2. There's no point in criticizing an operating system unless you want to just blow off steam, are planning to contribute code or money to improving it, or just want to start a flame war.


Why can't you criticize in order to bring awareness or attention to what you consider to be a problem? Not everyone can contribute code and not everyone can (or wants) to contribute money. But everyone can contribute to the general body of ideas. Maybe someone might post something on this form that might influence someone who might post in a mailing list or in IRC chat that might catch the attention of a developer who might try to implement changes to the project. Does that not carry any merit?

curuxz
December 17th, 2005, 01:32 AM
Saying, how about we fix this is very diffrent from the normal message of something like "oh this is broken so lets all give up and go back to windows" the trolls dont even consider helping or suggestiing solutions they just insult, bitch or talk crap. If they were willing to exept that sometimes they are wrong and on the odd ocation they come across a real bug and not just their own lack of configuration skill they dont ask it be fixed but that we all give up. this is just not on !

joflow
December 17th, 2005, 01:56 AM
Saying, how about we fix this is very diffrent from the normal message of something like "oh this is broken so lets all give up and go back to windows" the trolls dont even consider helping or suggestiing solutions they just insult, bitch or talk crap. If they were willing to exept that sometimes they are wrong and on the odd ocation they come across a real bug and not just their own lack of configuration skill they dont ask it be fixed but that we all give up. this is just not on !

If there was a product I supported and I saw people throwing up their hands in frustration and quitting, I wouldn't just dismiss their frustration as trolling. I'd look at what they had to say, try to see if there was any merit in it and then try to make improvements. I'm sure that 10 years ago alot of people got on message boards and made threads about linux being hard to install but instead of dismissing them distro makers paid attention to them and now every major linux distro is easier to install then Windows. Someone also whinned in frustration about hardware support and now we have distros that can autodetect almost any piece of hardware you throw at it. It may be a shocking notion to you but we (me and you) could both benefit from these "trolls".

I've quit using Linux three times out of frustration. Each time I just went back to using only windows until I discovered Ubuntu which made Linux useable for me. I've taken out my frustration with Linux out on various message boards. I was lucky enough to have people who, instead of dismissing me and calling me a troll, were good enough to help me through my problems and encourage me to continue using Linux.

IMO, We should all be glad that these people are even being courageous enough to try linux. They will get frustrated, its only natural because for many of them their entire computing experience has been centered around windows. So instead of focusing our attention on attacking them, maybe we should focus on helping them so that one day maybe we can convert them into full fledge linux users.

fuscia
December 17th, 2005, 02:21 AM
i haven't noticed more than one of these windows trolls. i thought this thread was going to be about people being obnoxious and i only opened it to see if i had been mentioned.

earobinson
December 17th, 2005, 02:23 AM
I think that the admins have been a bit overworked latley I know I have been seeing.... and reporting a lot more misplaced posts and trolls but I think it will settle down again soon I hope.


a newsgroup post that is deliberately incorrect, intended to provoke readers; or a person who makes such a post
google define:troll

At the end of the day as long as we keep it in the back yard I dont see a problem with it at all. If people wana have stuf you rants in the back yard then so be it.

prizrak
December 17th, 2005, 02:26 AM
If there was a product I supported and I saw people throwing up their hands in frustration and quitting, I wouldn't just dismiss their frustration as trolling. I'd look at what they had to say, try to see if there was any merit in it and then try to make improvements. I'm sure that 10 years ago alot of people got on message boards and made threads about linux being hard to install but instead of dismissing them distro makers paid attention to them and now every major linux distro is easier to install then Windows. Someone also whinned in frustration about hardware support and now we have distros that can autodetect almost any piece of hardware you throw at it. It may be a shocking notion to you but we (me and you) could both benefit from these "trolls".

I've quit using Linux three times out of frustration. Each time I just went back to using only windows until I discovered Ubuntu which made Linux useable for me. I've taken out my frustration with Linux out on various message boards. I was lucky enough to have people who, instead of dismissing me and calling me a troll, were good enough to help me through my problems and encourage me to continue using Linux.

IMO, We should all be glad that these people are even being courageous enough to try linux. They will get frustrated, its only natural because for many of them their entire computing experience has been centered around windows. So instead of focusing our attention on attacking them, maybe we should focus on helping them so that one day maybe we can convert them into full fledge linux users.
See this is the thing, many people don't bother TRYING to GET help. If you look at the anatomy of a well intentioned linux troll (it's stickied here) you will see a real troll. The guy who kept claiming that Linux sux and Windows is better and wouldn't listen to reason. I have seen on this forum where someone will get on and bitch about a problem, and someone will actually respond with "can you give more detail?" and then helping out or pointing to a how-to/another thread. I have seen alot of messages like "I need to use CLI to configure/install something? Pfft F that Linux is not ready for desktop" Completely dismissing MEPIS that is completely GUI driven. As far as features/bugs, there are certain venues, I myself have submitted a bug to the developers dealing with media file transfer over wireless. Most problems people have is with hardware and some hardware just is not supported in Linux. Can't do anything about that, it's a luck thing all my hardware on all the machines I tried putting Linux on since like 98-99 were supported OOB. Also many people get pissed off when we tell them "Ubuntu is not for you, use another distro" as us being unwilling to "fix" what's "broken". The thing many of those people don't realise (and in the case of trolls won't accept) is that each distribution has a certain target audience and certain goals. Ubuntu has a goal we (yes while I don't develop it I consider myself as part of the process) are working towards so we are not going to implement every random feature and functionality every random user wants. We cannot please everyone, nor are we going to try. However if there is something you need to do and don't know how to do it, we WILL do our best to help you. If you have a real bug submit it through bugzilla it will get looked at, and if it's fixable you will have a patch. If it's too hard to fix with a patch it will be fixed in the next version. Not to mention that Ubuntu's release cycle is every 6 months so it improves all the time. So please don't troll, be mindful of HOW you say thing as well as WHAT you say.

23meg
December 17th, 2005, 02:37 AM
If there was a product I supported and I saw people throwing up their hands in frustration and quitting, I wouldn't just dismiss their frustration as trolling.The thing is, the trolls we're talking about don't ask for help but just bash things whose reasons of existence they don't know enough about. I've seen LOTS of threads here where people expressed that they were quitting Linux / Ubuntu and reasonably listed the things they didn't like and the problems they were having, and guess what, their problems were solved and their confusion cleared right on the spot and they were back immediately. Noone called these people trolls; on the contrary, they were helped and they decided to stick with Linux / Ubuntu.

earobinson
December 17th, 2005, 02:46 AM
The thing is, the trolls we're talking about don't ask for help but just bash things whose reasons of existence they don't know enough about. I've seen LOTS of threads here where people expressed that they were quitting Linux / Ubuntu and reasonably listed the things they didn't like and the problems they were having, and guess what, their problems were solved and their confusion cleared right on the spot and they were back immediately. Noone called these people trolls; on the contrary, they were helped and they decided to stick with Linux / Ubuntu.
no your wrong 23meg *%$3 your %$%$ing %$^$#$%# you little $%#$# of a #$%#$#$

That is trolling IMO compleatly useless post that just gets in the way and adds nothing to the thread. I compleatly agree with 23meg nothing wrong with saying Im quiting linux forever because i cant play games. As long as the user puts the post in the right place and says it the right way. The only things we have to stop In my mind is arguments in the support sections and people telling other people off.

But as stated before I have seen a rise in that but think it will settle down now.


VVVV Exactly VVVVV (post below)

mstlyevil
December 17th, 2005, 02:53 AM
You can tell a real troll from a frustrated user by the languange they deploy when posting. A frustrated user might say something like, "I am going back to windows because Gimp does not support all the features I need and photoshop does." A troll will say something like, " Windows is better than Linux because Gimp sucks.

The first one expressed his/her frustration with Gimp without being insulting. The second person did nothing but insult both Linux and Gimp without giving any reasons whatsoever in an attempt to make people mad. So we have to be carefull who we a calling a troll and look at the languange used and the attitude expressed before jumping off and getting in a flame war.

blastus
December 17th, 2005, 03:18 AM
The word troll is often misused (overused?), but it does, in fact, describe a very real forum behavior, and that behavior does appear sometimes on Linux forums, including this one.

I would like to add and say that a troll is someone who feeds on being divisive and contentious and only posts to argue. A troll has no sense to leave well enough alone but is hell-bent on inciting, irritating, and provoking others to engage him even when no-one wants to engage him. Discord and strife are the hallmarks of the troll. There is a discernable pattern of discord and strife wherever the troll goes. Follow the troll's trail and you'll find discord and strife. When a troll infests a forum, like a disease, the infestation (discord and strife) can spread.

I find this a good general definition of a troll: What is an Internet Troll/Forum Troll? (http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp)

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 06:17 AM
Why can't you criticize in order to bring awareness or attention to what you consider to be a problem? Not everyone can contribute code and not everyone can (or wants) to contribute money. But everyone can contribute to the general body of ideas. Maybe someone might post something on this form that might influence someone who might post in a mailing list or in IRC chat that might catch the attention of a developer who might try to implement changes to the project. Does that not carry any merit? No. It doesn't. If you want to let the developers know about a recommended change or bug, you file a bug report at Bugzilla. Ubuntu developers do not read these forums, and the best way to communicate your dissatisfaction with the quality of Ubuntu is not to start a thread criticizing it.

https://bugzilla.ubuntu.com/

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 06:23 AM
I find this a good general definition of a troll: What is an Internet Troll/Forum Troll? (http://curezone.com/forums/troll.asp) That's a great link. This is what I worry about the most:
Finally, trolls create a paranoid environment, such that a casual criticism by a new arrival can elicit a ferocious and inappropriate backlash. I have to confess that sometimes I've become victim to that "paranoid environment." Genuine trolls create an environment where any criticisms of Linux are looked at with a lot of suspicion (Is this a troll? Or is this someone who has a genuinely legitimate gripe?). I think a lot of Linux users can easily become zealots because trolls often put them in a defensive position... in the Linux users' "home territory," as it were.

Linux and Linux users are often misunderstood, and when it's your daily "job" to battle misconceptions about the OS you use, you often do not have a healthy or balanced view of things. This may be an extreme example, but our cat had a rather rough childhood, and even though we've been quite caring to him, every now and then he gets rather frightened for no good reason. So if Linux users do tend to overreact (and it does happen), it's only because they've been attacked so many times by malicious trolls.

Arktis
December 17th, 2005, 08:29 AM
need a don't feed the trolls sign;)
http://207.44.157.174/forums/images/smilies/balloons/bln-trolls.gif
;)

I need to find an image host so I can put that in my siggy. :rolleyes:

But seriously, I think that everyone is guilty at some point of unintentional trolling. I know I am.

Chibi
December 17th, 2005, 08:37 AM
If there was a product I supported and I saw people throwing up their hands in frustration and quitting, I wouldn't just dismiss their frustration as trolling. I'd look at what they had to say, try to see if there was any merit in it and then try to make improvements. I'm sure that 10 years ago alot of people got on message boards and made threads about linux being hard to install but instead of dismissing them distro makers paid attention to them and now every major linux distro is easier to install then Windows. Someone also whinned in frustration about hardware support and now we have distros that can autodetect almost any piece of hardware you throw at it. It may be a shocking notion to you but we (me and you) could both benefit from these "trolls".

I've quit using Linux three times out of frustration. Each time I just went back to using only windows until I discovered Ubuntu which made Linux useable for me. I've taken out my frustration with Linux out on various message boards. I was lucky enough to have people who, instead of dismissing me and calling me a troll, were good enough to help me through my problems and encourage me to continue using Linux.

IMO, We should all be glad that these people are even being courageous enough to try linux. They will get frustrated, its only natural because for many of them their entire computing experience has been centered around windows. So instead of focusing our attention on attacking them, maybe we should focus on helping them so that one day maybe we can convert them into full fledge linux users.

Very well said.

Knomefan
December 17th, 2005, 08:43 AM
IMO, We should all be glad that these people are even being courageous enough to try linux.

Why?



They will get frustrated, its only natural because for many of them their entire computing experience has been centered around windows. So instead of focusing our attention on attacking them, maybe we should focus on helping them so that one day maybe we can convert them into full fledge linux users.
I think that realy unfair.
If anything, this forum is about doing exactly that, that is help people. And I think it is doing a very good job at it, especially catering to noobs (You don't find many RTFM noob messages here, do you?)

GeneralZod
December 17th, 2005, 10:44 AM
Show me one single instance of someone calmly writing something like "I really like Ubuntu, but this one feature is not so great. Can anyone help me fix it?" and a Linux "fanboy" replying, "You're a troll!"

Trolls don't simply say some one feature is not so great. Please.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=580640&postcount=19

Calling the OP in the thread above "a stupid 14 year old" because Synaptic doesn't have all the apps he needs (which is a 100% valid complaint, if you ask me) is an example of this, in my opinion. Granted, commodore didn't ask for a fix but, quite frankly, the difficulty of installing from source is pretty much unfixable, for the time being. I commodore's post was pretty reasonable, myself.

BatsotO
December 17th, 2005, 11:33 AM
Calling the OP in the thread above "a stupid 14 year old" because Synaptic doesn't have all the apps he needs (which is a 100% valid complaint, if you ask me) is an example of this, in my opinion. Granted, commodore didn't ask for a fix but, quite frankly, the difficulty of installing from source is pretty much unfixable, for the time being. I commodore's post was pretty reasonable, myself.

IMHO, it was like forgetting that we're once, or still is, a newbie. Before calling someone a stupid 14 year old, one should look back to the past when he/she was 14, or his/her first encounter with computers.
This kid do installation from tar.gz in age 14, and he failed, and he get frustated, yet daring to try again, is that stupidity? I dont think so.
What did you do when you're 14? Can you imagine, if the kid can get through with this, what will he do when he's 25?

curuxz
December 17th, 2005, 01:04 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=580640&postcount=19

Calling the OP in the thread above "a stupid 14 year old" because Synaptic doesn't have all the apps he needs (which is a 100% valid complaint, if you ask me) is an example of this, in my opinion. Granted, commodore didn't ask for a fix but, quite frankly, the difficulty of installing from source is pretty much unfixable, for the time being. I commodore's post was pretty reasonable, myself.


It was me who said it, and I have a very very good reason. I was pissed off at him because this was yet another thread from this user where he was *acting* like a 14 year old. Posting for the third of forth time a thread saying linux is basicly crap while not giving any valid reasons. If you look at his post history he does things like asks about the linux business model then replys with comments like "supporting people sucks" I know when I was 14 and I went on linux forums I kept my posts as well informed as I could and I never responded with such childish remarks of well it sucks after describing a stupidly complex attempt of installing a package (most likely to make him looked skilled) no mention of the click install, click run method of installing in ubuntu that realy exists. I have no problem with 14 year olds and giving them help, I do have a problem with childish posts that waste the time of the forum, people tryed helping him just to get responses like nah its a waste of time or linux is stupid...

" In fact I never managed to install an app by unpacking it on the command line and running make" I mean what the hell is this all about, I have only had to go to command line once, to install E17 a development package, making it out like this is the usal way of doing things and hence we are not working well is just plain madness. Its comments like this on all this threads that angered me. I'm not a nasty person im just sick to death with all these unfounded childish trolls making comments that they could never hope to backup with facts!

I totaly agree with some of the comments about this issue such as they refuse help or use provokational laungage instead of rational calm comments and I wish that people would stop confusing my complaint against tolls as a complaint against the noobs and the people that are forced back to windows. I like helping them and do try if I can. What I hate are those that express their anger for their own bad experiences against this community who is on a whole kind, helpfull and patiant. When was the last time you saw the letters RTFM used, we like noobs we hate trolls there is a world of diffrence between them.

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 03:43 PM
http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=580640&postcount=19

Calling the OP in the thread above "a stupid 14 year old" because Synaptic doesn't have all the apps he needs (which is a 100% valid complaint, if you ask me) is an example of this, in my opinion. Granted, commodore didn't ask for a fix but, quite frankly, the difficulty of installing from source is pretty much unfixable, for the time being. I commodore's post was pretty reasonable, myself. Hate to be a nitpicker, but while you may have a point, that's a separate issue. There was no mention of the OP being called a troll.

This is more of an issue of how we treat new users in general and our receptiveness to criticism--a related issue, but not he same one.

Kerberos
December 17th, 2005, 04:16 PM
Since (I'm fairly sure the original Troll thread is my 'fault') I'd like to state something.

Linux is fun. You get to tweak with your system, you learn loads on the way and its a diverse and varied operating system that can do pretty much anything if you know how and have the time.

Unfortunatley its reliance on the command line (discoverability is a very important fact in usability) and the feeling (not that there is anything wrong with it) that you should learn your OS rather than just use it makes it unsuitable in a lot of situations.

I don't really like Windows much either, but using it just takes up far less time since to be honest I don't want to learn Linux - I just want to get my work done and go home.

For you to truly benifit from Linux you need to embrace the ideology. If you think (as I do) that time spent playing with a system is time that could have been spent doing something else then Linux just isn't practical.

When I do switch to Linux (maybe :)) It'll be because it annoys me less than Windows and provides a genuine advantage - not down to any other factors.

prizrak
December 17th, 2005, 04:30 PM
Since (I'm fairly sure the original Troll thread is my 'fault') I'd like to state something.

Linux is fun. You get to tweak with your system, you learn loads on the way and its a diverse and varied operating system that can do pretty much anything if you know how and have the time.

Unfortunatley its reliance on the command line (discoverability is a very important fact in usability) and the feeling (not that there is anything wrong with it) that you should learn your OS rather than just use it makes it unsuitable in a lot of situations.

I don't really like Windows much either, but using it just takes up far less time since to be honest I don't want to learn Linux - I just want to get my work done and go home.

For you to truly benifit from Linux you need to embrace the ideology. If you think (as I do) that time spent playing with a system is time that could have been spent doing something else then Linux just isn't practical.

When I do switch to Linux (maybe :)) It'll be because it annoys me less than Windows and provides a genuine advantage - not down to any other factors.
Well all that can be said to that, Windows takes time to learn as well and most people spent a REALLY long time learning Windows (I know I been using it for 8 years). If you don't like CLI you might wanna give MEPIS a spin it's pretty much all point and click.
What you said is a great example of a good and well thoughtout "Linux is not for me" statement. This is NOT trolling this is a genuine point against Linux, some people don't mind learning a new OS others just want to "get their work done and go home". This is the kind of post we would like to see if people don't like the OS.

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 05:13 PM
Unfortunatley its reliance on the command line (discoverability is a very important fact in usability) and the feeling (not that there is anything wrong with it) that you should learn your OS rather than just use it makes it unsuitable in a lot of situations. Except that not every Linux distribution does rely heavily on the command-line. You may not like Linspire or Mepis, but they are, in fact, Linux distributions.

If you substitute in Ubuntu, I'll agree with you:
Unfortunatley Ubuntu's reliance on the command line (discoverability is a very important fact in usability) and the feeling (not that there is anything wrong with it) that you should learn your OS rather than just use it makes it unsuitable in a lot of situations.

joflow
December 17th, 2005, 06:09 PM
Hate to be a nitpicker, but while you may have a point, that's a separate issue. There was no mention of the OP being called a troll.

This is more of an issue of how we treat new users in general and our receptiveness to criticism--a related issue, but not he same one.


Read curuxz's post above you. He may not have called the guy a troll in the mentioned thread but:

1. He called him one in this thread.

"I'm not a nasty person im just sick to death with all these unfounded childish trolls making comments that they could never hope to backup with facts!"

2. I haven't checked the dates and times so I could be totally wrong but it seems that XQC's "Linux doesn't seem that good anymore" thread inspired this thread.

Whether he said it or not in the original thread...it does seem that curuxz believes that the original poster of that thread is a troll.

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 06:14 PM
I stand corrected, then.

It should be noted, though, that the OP of that thread wasn't actually asking for help. I wasn't too offended by the post, especially this part at the end:
But I like the idea behind GNU that software is free. I like both freedom and free of charge. That's why I'm still going to try to use Linux on. Maybe I have to try BSD, I don't know. I hate Microsoft so I'm trying not to use their software. But the first part did seem a bit misinformed:
I have been using Ubuntu for a few months now and I can't see anything better in Linux. It's a lot harder and messier. It's so hard to install even simple things. In fact I never managed to install an app by unpacking it on the command line and running make. I actually think Windows is better to use. Random, unsubstantiated statements about Linux being harder or messier than Windows are not requests for help. They are potential flamebait, though.

A troll? I don't think so, especially since that OP didn't provide the usual back-and-forth senseless arguing that is typical of troll behavior. I think it was an honest, misinformed expression of frustration tempered by a resignation to try, try again.

No trolling but also no asking for help.

P.S. Can I just point out, too, how impressed I am with the "I give up" thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=104968) that popped up recently? No one said, "You must stick with Linux! Traitor!" or "Dumb user. Go back to Windows where you belong."

People were courteous and respectful. The general tone was "Sorry to see you go. You may want to try such and such, though."

joflow
December 17th, 2005, 06:34 PM
Thats because he's a newbie. He doesn't know that what he's saying about linux is wrong..he just knows that he can install programs in windows and can't in linux.

I had the same problems in mandrake. I didn't know about RPM and when I was using mandrake the repos didn't come pre-setup at the time. Coming from a windows background, I thought I could just download the linux equivilent of a .exe and double click.

Then I found out about compiling from source. I thought that was pretty much the only way to install anything on linux, so I tried to install everything from source and failed 99% of the time so I quit. I used to say: "Its useless if I can't install the programs I want". But then some people in a forum walked me through seting up some third party repos and taught me how to use urpmi, and so I reinstalled mandrake and was installing programs left and right. If it wasn't for that help I wouldn't be on this forum right now.

Like another guy said, people seem to be forgetting what its like to be a newbie. Ubuntu makes things easier then Mandrake 9.1 was OOB but Ubuntu only has 4,000 packages available by default. Maybe he doesn't know that editing his source.list can open up 16,000 packages?

mstlyevil
December 17th, 2005, 06:35 PM
I have been using Ubuntu for a few months now and I can't see anything better in Linux. It's a lot harder and messier. It's so hard to install even simple things. In fact I never managed to install an app by unpacking it on the command line and running make. I actually think Windows is better to use.

By reading this statement by that poster I get the impression that he confuses not knowing how to install packages in Ubuntu with somehow being harder than Windows. The mistake many noob's make is that they think Linux/Ubuntu should look, feel and act like Windows. I myself have only been using Linux for about 4 or 5 months and I find that once you learn how to use synaptic, (or in my case I am using YAST in Suse right now.) it is much simpler than installing programs in Windows. If what you need is not listed in synaptic, the how-to's and user guides listed in this forum make using the command line a cinch.

Most people are programmed to do things the Windows way so they think that Linux is just too technical for them when in fact it is just as easy to use if you are willing to take the time to learn a new OS. He could have been a little less harsh in his complaints about Ubuntu, but I do not believe he was trolling after rteading the entire post.

curuxz
December 17th, 2005, 06:46 PM
Ok I would like to make several points as to my agressive response to the "Linux doesn't seem that good anymore" thread against its starter.

1) This is not the first such unfounded post of his I have read this week (hence an annoyed responce by me)

2) I class any thread with the title "Linux doesn't seem that good anymore" and the first line "I have been using Ubuntu for a few months now " as totaly stupid and more than a bit trollish. If he had said I have been using ubuntu for a few years and it seems worse, that may be sensible if a little hard to defend as a point of view, but to turn up to our community take a little look, make some realy stupid comments and then start slagging off ubuntu in favour of the good ol' days. Which for someone who goes on to say does not like command line I cant realy see why he is saying its no longer any good, which mythical golden age is his title hinting at and given his age would be old enough (no offence intended) to have been using linux pre-ubuntu.

3) He said he hates microsoft but "I actually think Windows is better to use." seems like he just wants to insult everyone. Yet another tollish comment of his that refers back to me suggesting these kinds of people have developed a "kick the bee's nest" syndrome where they seem intent on ticking off as many people in as few sentances as possible.

4) His totaly stupid remark about installing things from the command line angered me because I wondered what the hell he thinks he is doing, we are for lack of a better word all debian users and as such most of us use deb based systems because of apt and the massive advantages over installing in windows when it comes to both finding, installing and verifying downloads of programs.

5) Just because I started this thread does not mean that my activities or repsonses to those I see as damaging our communitiy have ANY basis on this disucssion. I am but one man trying to get along and just because I got angry at another user does not mean we should all focus on my comments instead of the wider issue of weather or not we have a big problem with windows 'trolls' I still think we do, I may have lost my temper and commented on his age as a negitive but I maintain he was flame-baiting, he was being childish and I was justfied in saying he should grow up.

I did not make this thread to start an argument I made it to see if my view was distorted or if others here feel we have the same problem. There is a clear concenisis in my view that the forum has a problem (as do others) and unless more mods are created and more time/a better method of detection is put into this issue we will still have to wade through lots of crap in this place to have a decent, calm and adult conversation on linux and its competiors.

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 07:00 PM
I agree with you that the thread in question may be incendiary (flamebait?) and possibly misinformed and careless.

However, troll may not be the most appropriate term. A troll has a definite agenda, and it usually includes the following:

1. Arguing
2. Getting lots of attention in doing so
3. Being as divisive as possible
4. Repeating falsehoods for the sake of getting people upset

While the OP of the other thread may have, in fact, stated a few falsehoods in the first post, I wasn't getting the sense that she/he was trying to rile people up and start some kind of debate that just ends up with people upset.

I saw a frustrated, misinformed user who was not attacked (apart from the one "stupid" label) by the majority of the community. curuxz may know more about the context of this user's behavior and reacted as she/he saw fit, but so be it.

In answer to the original question...

1. In the past week I've seen a rise in threads and posts that appear to be perpetuating fear, uncertainty, and doubt about Linux in general and Ubuntu specifically.

2. Most of these are not started by people I would term as "trolls."

3. We got hit by a number of trollish posts around the end of the summer, and then they seemed to have altogether disappeared (with the exception of a certain thread about security... not naming names).

prizrak
December 17th, 2005, 08:17 PM
Someone raised the "We forget what it's like to be noobs" point. I must say that sometimes I really do think they need to STFU (although I tend to not let it show in my posts) I started off with Linux in about 99 - 2K RedHat (don't even remmember the version) now THAT was a PITA especially since I managed to get a wrong book that instead of telling me how to use Linux taught me how to program in it (C can sux so badly). I had to compile most things at the time, so compared to that time n00bs have it good these days especially in Ubuntu :)
That said I do remember how difficult it was to learn a new OS which is why I'm nice to the newbies and even manage to help out from time to time (though it's mostly pointing people to How-To's)
So don't feed the trolls, try to remain calm and remember that we are winning anyway and they are losing :)
::spread love and joy around the forum::

(with the exception of a certain thread about security... not naming names).
Oh common it was like watching a cat fight, fun and safe :)

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 08:19 PM
I started using Linux eight months ago. I'm still a newbie. I haven't forgotten.

earobinson
December 17th, 2005, 08:24 PM
I started using Linux eight months ago. I'm still a newbie. I haven't forgotten.
WOW

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 08:27 PM
Oh common it was like watching a cat fight, fun and safe :) You're right. Technically, though, there was some serious trolling going on. Since there were basically only two parties involved at the end, it was a bit like watching a cat fight.

curuxz
December 17th, 2005, 08:32 PM
8 months!? you have amassed over 4000 posts in 8 months, guess its safe to say who will get this years spam award ;) lol...j/k :D

I don't hate noobs, infact I quite like them they show our community continues to grow and attract new people. I HATE...noobs who think they know it all and make stupid comments to the effect of if I cant do it no one can, (I wont mention a certain someone who is a clear example of this...)

We were all starting out once, I'm glad they have such a great place to come as it took me years to learn on my own through trial and error and A LOT of reinstalling ;)

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 08:37 PM
8 months!? you have amassed over 4000 posts in 8 months, guess its safe to say who will get this years spam award ;) lol...j/k :D Worse than that--you can see my join date is in May, so it's in 7 months. I've been using Linux for eight months, though. I used Mepis for a month before switching to Ubuntu.

earobinson
December 17th, 2005, 08:39 PM
stats for aysiu: Total Posts: 4,441 (21.45 posts per day)

aysiu
December 17th, 2005, 08:45 PM
stats for aysiu: Total Posts: 4,441 (21.45 posts per day) Worse than that--community chat posts don't count...

curuxz
December 17th, 2005, 08:55 PM
They dont count ???? £$%£$% "$£%"£$ "£$%£$%£$% someone had %£$%£$% told me that. I spend hours here each day for the past few weeks since i joined reading, and trying to make good responses and all the while wondering why my post count is down :'( Thanks for the info things make alot more sense now ;)

earobinson
December 17th, 2005, 09:05 PM
we are a tech support form before anything else .... ohhh 900 posts :)

cstudent
December 17th, 2005, 09:11 PM
I just realized this, but I think my avatar is a troll. I just liked it because he was fishing. :)

23meg
December 18th, 2005, 02:48 AM
Not every misinformed basher is a troll, but just about every troll is a misinformed basher.