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Pipps
January 19th, 2009, 09:30 PM
I tried to book a collection today for an item I had sold on eBay. I was shocked and dismayed to find that when I visited the www.Parcelforce.com website to book the collection, as I had done countless times before, I was told by the webportal that as I am using a Linux operating system I am not permitted to place an order. I think this is disgusting!

Fortunately for me, I mentioned it to a friend. They advised me without hesitation to use a far superior and more cost effective service. It goes by the name of InterParcel. Google them and try them out. They arranged the collection for me for £7.99 using the DHL 48 hour service. I asked me friend to compare this price for me using the same order details. I was even more amazed when he informed me that the same collection with ParcelForce (had I been allowed to order!), would have cost £20.50.

ParcelForce cannot be forgiven for discriminating in such a pathetic and unreasonable way. They will not receive my business ever again.

lykwydchykyn
January 19th, 2009, 09:37 PM
One would hope you would express your ire in an email to parcelforce. Businesses usually change these sorts of things when they start losing customers over it.

scouser73
January 20th, 2009, 12:28 AM
That's typical Parcelfarce though, yes I do mean Parcelfarce lol.

Pipps
January 22nd, 2009, 12:56 AM
Sirs

Parcelfarce, indeed.

(I particularly concur with the dropping of the second capital letter.)

And yes, I think a nice little email would do nicely. I'll wait until I'm in a particularly bad mood, before dispatching it.

I will beg them not to reply, though, as the last thing I want is a diatribe of patronising double-talk arriving in my inbox.

I will, however, promise to post whatever nonsense they might dare to send me.

Best regards

Pipps

Jose Catre-Vandis
January 22nd, 2009, 01:30 AM
Well it all seemed to work OK on my box 0 8.10 with FF3

archolman
January 22nd, 2009, 01:40 AM
They seem to have a problem with Linux & Mac.
I feel a letter to The Times coming on.

v8YKxgHe
January 24th, 2009, 01:43 PM
I also got caught out by my 'unsupported' browser and OS. Luckily, switching the User Agent to fake it as MSIE7 on Vista worked, and I also had to use the Firebug extension to remove the 'disabled' attribute on the Input submit button.

Doing both of those allowed me to continue and send the parcel, however I have sent them an email complaining about this - currently in talks with them about it.

Hopefully we can get them to wake up.

Btw, this needs moving to the cafe

hyperdude111
January 24th, 2009, 02:04 PM
You could use Firefox in wine then fake browser to ie7.
However it is disgusting for them to refuse service to linux users. I will complain.

Pipps
January 27th, 2009, 04:12 PM
Here is my first email to ParcelForce:


Dear Sir

I have been a loyal customer to ParcelForce for many years. However,

I have recently discovered when booking a collection using my home computer, that your company does not allow Linux users to use or pay for your services. I find this disgusting and completely unacceptable.

I would like to know why your company could have possibly made such a decision, and whether you would be at all concerned about loosing my custom in the future?

Yours faithfully

Pipps
January 27th, 2009, 04:13 PM
Here is their first attempt at a reply:


Dear Sir


Thank you for your enquiry.


Our website functions normally with the most popular operating systems and browsers, which at this time are Windows and Apple OS. It is not cost effective for us to ensure that the website supports every single operating system and browser available.

If you would like to continue using our website we would suggest you do so on a computer which runs one of these operating systems.

If you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us again at this email address: <snip>.


Please ensure that you include the full history of your enquiry so far in order to help us respond to you as quickly as possible.


Our hours of business are: Mon to Fri: 8am to 7pm and Sat: 8:30am to 12:30pm


Kind regards



John Anderson
Parcelforce Worldwide
Customer Service Email Team

Pipps
January 27th, 2009, 04:17 PM
My reply:


Dear John

You haven't answered either of my questions. Allow me to clarify...

Firstly, do you want Linux users as customers? Or is their business simply not valuable to you?

Secondly, when you say that it is not cost effective to make your website compatible with operating systems other than Windows or Apple OS, what exactly do you mean? You see, it would appear that ParcelForce has made its website specifically incompatible with Linux, only. Why can't your website be like every other website out there, and be operating system non-specific? Why on earth would you require a website which would require verification of the users operating system? It seems to me that making a free-for-all website would have always been a more cost effective option from the start.

Anyway, I look forward to hearing from you again and for your clarification on both of my questions. I would hope to be able to use ParcelForce again in the future, if you are able to reply.

Regards

Pipps
January 27th, 2009, 04:17 PM
Their latest reply!

Is this worth even bothering to respond to?


Dear Sir


Thank you for your enquiry.


I am sorry to learn that you have been experiencing difficulties accessing our system. Our website does support other system users but only so fully when they are using Internet
Explorer or Firefox browsers, being the main browsers used by most people. Most people
who encounter such difficulties use Firefox rather than the installed Internet Explorer as it has
a much greater functionality and so you will need to use one of these.

Access to our online services is protected by something called SSL 128 bit session encryption. Encryption is the process through which sensitive information is scrambled before it is transmitted so that it remains private even if it is intercepted. 128-bit encryption is the strongest encryption currently used commercially. However, unless your Internet browser supports 128-bit encryption you will not be able to take advantage of this level of security.

I hope that this information will be of benefit to you. Please feel free to visit our website -
www.parcelforce.com for additional information on privacy policy.

Thank you for using Parcelforce Worldwide.

If you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us again at this email address: parcelforce@parcelforce.co.uk.


Please ensure that you include the full history of your enquiry so far in order to help us respond to you as quickly as possible.


Our hours of business are: Mon to Fri: 8am to 7pm and Sat: 8:30am to 12:30pm


Kind regards



Patson Maganga

Parcelforce Worldwide
Customer Service Email Team

v8YKxgHe
January 27th, 2009, 04:40 PM
Pipps, I'm also getting the same sort of responses. He keeps on changing his mind as to if Linux is supported, and you just need to use Firefox (of which I am), and then Linux isn't supported at all. Look:


which at this time are Windows and Apple OS. It is not cost effective for us to ensure that the website supports every single operating system and browser available.

Then in the next response:


Our website does support other system users but only so fully when they are using Internet
Explorer or Firefox browsers, being the main browsers used by most people.

I hope we can get more people emailing in their thoughts on this (though not to the point of spam) to voice their concerns. It is just not acceptable.

Edit: Also don't turn it into a personal attack against the support staff, keep it friendly =)

Rocket2DMn
January 27th, 2009, 05:16 PM
Moved to the Community Cafe.

mips
January 27th, 2009, 05:32 PM
Send a letter with copies of their emails to The Inquirer (http://www.theinquirer.net/) as well as a big print paper then Digg it. Copy them or send them links.

Companies don't like bad PR especially when they look idiotically stupid.

lykwydchykyn
January 27th, 2009, 05:54 PM
Our website functions normally with the most popular operating systems and browsers, which at this time are Windows and Apple OS. It is not cost effective for us to ensure that the website supports every single operating system and browser available.


Once again, the concept of web standards is completely lost on people. You need to point them to w3.org.

Pipps
January 27th, 2009, 06:33 PM
It is incorrect of ParcelForce to imply the a Firefox browser running on a Linux operating system does not support 128-bit encryption.

See here:
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Encryption

It would seem to me to be a shortfall of the ParcelForce website, and not that of the Firefox browser, let alone a Linux operating system.

ParcelForce are complete liars. Their further incompetence in this matter is forcing me take note of my fellow crusader's action and also go to the public press.

Redache
January 27th, 2009, 06:49 PM
If they Support Safari (Which I'm assuming they do) then there is no reason to not support Firefox, Opera, Epiphany Etc. They are similar in their Standards Compliance and as such should work perfectly if the Website is standard Compliant.

From the second reply it sounded like he was saying Internet Explorer was superior in Functionality to Firefox, which isn't true. From a "Standards" perspective Firefox is FAR superior to IE.

Basically they got some company in to make them a new website and the employees of that company are either idiots or really have no idea what a Web Browser is.

Stuff like this annoys me, especially when they tout random crap about "The Cost of Supporting Linux is too high" or whatever. I wonder if they Support Chrome, since Chrome is WEBKIT BASED, the same as Safari.

Tom Mann
January 27th, 2009, 07:41 PM
Our website functions normally with the most popular operating systems and browsers, which at this time are Windows and Apple OS. It is not cost effective for us to ensure that the website supports every single operating system and browser available.

I would go back to them, point out that Firefox runs on Linux and provides an identical set of features, then click 'help' > 'report broken website' in Firefox who will set their advocacy machine into action. (with any luck)

gn2
January 27th, 2009, 09:26 PM
Seems the OP is right enough.
EDIT: Just noticed that neither Vista or Apple is on the list of permitted operating systems, it seems they really don't want on-line business....

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w109/gn1v/AntiLinux-1.png

The Grum
January 28th, 2009, 11:28 AM
If you order PC components from Dabs or Ebuyer, which use parcelfarce as their carrier, switch to another store (overclockers use Royal Mail, IIRC). Email them and tell them they lost a sale due to their carrier's anti-Linux policy.

Swagman
January 28th, 2009, 01:03 PM
Ebuyer only use Royal Fail for very small items.

ShittyLink has the main contract.

Actually I have never had a problem with CityLink so my bastardization of their name is in jest.

Namtabmai
January 28th, 2009, 01:08 PM
Actually I have never had a problem with CityLink so my bastardization of their name is in jest.

I have, and that name is probably one of the politer ones I'd use. Anyway it's not always that easy to tell which delivery companies a online shop users, and shopping around sites make a decision based solely on the delivery company is possible taking things a bit too far.

Swagman
January 28th, 2009, 01:26 PM
Agreed.

And whilst you were posting, Royal Fail put a "Sorry you were out" card through our door !!

He never even knocked or rang the bell.

Johnsie
January 28th, 2009, 01:27 PM
I work for a mailing house that uses ParcelForce and uses Royal Mails downstream access systems (EPRO and Mosiac).

Alot of the software they use for those systems is legacy software that is quite old. So the software was probably written before large numbers of users were using alternative operating systems. I wouldn't say they are discriminating against specific groups of people, they simply haven't bothered to update their systems to support desktop operating systems that have only become popular over the last few years.

They will only update their systems it if they think it's profitable (ie. a decent number of Linux users are actually wanting to use the systems). So far I haven't heard of that many businesses that use Linux to access these systems.

Most of Parcel Force and Royal Mails profits are made at the Wholesale business side of things, not at the personal/home level.

Swagman
January 28th, 2009, 01:40 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong but

Web standards have nothing to do with operating systems.

I can use my AmigaONE on a lot of websites if I wanted and the chance of that O/s being supported is ZERO

Johnsie
January 28th, 2009, 01:56 PM
Web standards are only relevant if a majority of users have a browser that adheres to them. Right now a minority of machines have these 'standards' adhered to in their browser so right now the only use of standards its to say "look here, we exist but most people don't use us".

Pipps
January 28th, 2009, 03:20 PM
Johnsie, it sounds like you've hit the nail on the head, here.

If personal customers are only a fraction of ParcelForce's profits, that it would appear to be doubtful that anything will change in the future.

t0p
January 28th, 2009, 03:32 PM
Here is my first email to ParcelForce. . .

I doubt ParcelForce are bothered about "loosing" your custom. But they might worry if they start losing customers.
;)

v8YKxgHe
January 28th, 2009, 04:46 PM
Got another reply from them:


Parcelforce Worldwide, as are no company, under any obligation to create a website compatible with all possible operating systems, web browsers or hardware configurations available.

If you cannot access our services via the operating system you are currently using I would advise booking a collection via an alternate method as previously advised or contact the producers of the version of Linux you are using to flag this issue as a development note.

I must advise this response would be provided to any outside body who may contact us on this issue.

I feel we have exhausted all constructive dialog on this issue and must now respectively conclude that no further emails from yourself on this issue will receive a response.

*Sigh*, pathetic.

Mason Whitaker
January 28th, 2009, 04:48 PM
Got another reply from them:



*Sigh*, pathetic.You should honestly send that response to the BBC or something, something like this would bring about an uproar :S

That is honestly the most rude reply I've ever seen from a company regarding their services :S

Pipps
January 28th, 2009, 05:17 PM
I doubt ParcelForce are bothered about "loosing" your custom. But they might worry if they start losing customers.
;)
Thank you, Noted.

kavon89
January 28th, 2009, 05:49 PM
Just use a User Agent Switcher:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/59

Makes Firefox on Linux (or any OS for that matter) look like IE6 on a Windows machine.

v8YKxgHe
January 28th, 2009, 05:54 PM
Just use a User Agent Switcher:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/59

Makes Firefox on Linux (or any OS for that matter) look like IE6 on a Windows machine.

Already done: "Luckily, switching the User Agent to fake it as MSIE7 on Vista worked, and I also had to use the Firebug extension to remove the 'disabled' attribute on the Input submit button."

However that is far from the point, we should not be forced to fake things and manipulate the source code to send a parcel.

Pipps
January 28th, 2009, 07:51 PM
Just use a User Agent Switcher:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/59

Makes Firefox on Linux (or any OS for that matter) look like IE6 on a Windows machine.

You, Sir, are a genius!

PS: Although please don't let anyone at ParcelFarce know that this trick exists. They might use it as a defence for all the abuse I'm about to give them!

BigSilly
January 28th, 2009, 08:13 PM
But that's a workaround and they still get your business. I for one won't be using them again until they sort themselves out.

What a bloody disgrace. I'm disgusted at the responses from them too. Can any company, in these troubled financial times, afford to turn away business in this fashion? There are a ton of alternatives out there to ParcelForce. I suggest you use one of those.

ajcham
January 28th, 2009, 08:17 PM
Got another reply from them:


If you cannot access our services via the operating system you are currently using I would advise booking a collection via an alternate method as previously advised or contact the producers of the version of Linux you are using to flag this issue as a development note.

*Sigh*, pathetic.

It seems to me that whoever authored this response is unaware of how their system (and, indeed, the WWW) works. What are the Linux devs supposed to do about it? There is nothing inherent in Linux that causes incompatibility - the fact that user-agent switching is a sufficient workaround demonstrates this. Rather, it is a decision made by ParcelForce by which they simply tell you bugger off if they detect you are running the 'wrong' software.

I agree with Mason in that you should collate your replies and send them to a few major news outlets - maybe not the Beeb, but more tech-oriented press.

hyperdude111
January 28th, 2009, 09:54 PM
This is really disgusting, it is like os racism. Linux is not the problem it is parcel force. We should all email in and make a fuss this sort of unprofessional unjust discrimination against linux users MUST stop.

collinp
January 28th, 2009, 10:19 PM
If they are running even slightly modern servers, more than likely they are running Linux or something similar (such as BSD), and it would be of no difficulty to them to allow Linux users access to their website.

hanzomon4
January 28th, 2009, 11:33 PM
This is quite interesting, especially to see a response that demonstrates how little these website owner/operators actually know about computers, the internet, and it.

Mason Whitaker
January 28th, 2009, 11:47 PM
This is quite interesting, especially to see a response that demonstrates how little these website owner/operators actually know about computers, the internet, and it.That's the trouble with software like Dreamweaver. Yes, it does help in making the process of developing a website faster, but it makes it so the developer can become dumb in the mind when it comes to how a website really is behind all the images and layers.

Kinda like what .NET did to programmers.

bruce89
January 29th, 2009, 12:04 AM
That's the trouble with software like Dreamweaver. Yes, it does help in making the process of developing a website faster, but it makes it so the developer can become dumb in the mind when it comes to how a website really is behind all the images and layers.

Kinda like what .NET did to programmers.

Thank God for GObject.

blastus
January 29th, 2009, 02:36 AM
Ha ha someone should write them and tell them their website is going to be slammed all over the Internet. :popcorn: Maybe with some media attention they will realize how grossly technologically ignorant they are.

To think that it's 2009 and such ignorance about web standards still exists is shocking. They would have been much better off to have simply thanked you for bringing the issue to their attention--that would have been completely understandable.

Edit: It is very likely that ParcelForce has known about this issue since the summer of 2007 and even before. I found this Parcelforce Snub Linux Users (http://parker1.co.uk/blog/?p=31)

Pipps
January 29th, 2009, 01:13 PM
Brilliant updates guys - thank you! :)

Pipps
January 29th, 2009, 02:42 PM
A new reply, just in!

It just keeps getting better! lol


Dear Sir

Thank you for your enquiry.


Parcelforce Worldwide, as can no company, create a website which is compatible with all available operating system, browser and hardware configurations our customers may have.

Our website is designed to be, and is, compatible with the browser and operating systems which the vast majority of our customers use. These are Microsoft Windows and Apple OSX using Firefox and Microsoft Internet Explorer.

The onus to offer complete compatibility with our website lies with the operating system and browser providers, not ourselves.

The compatibility issue appears to lie with the Linux operating system and browser configuration you are currently using. I would advise to update to the latest version of both pieces of software as this may rectify the issue.

I assure you there is no intention to limit customers using Linux accessing our website.

If you are still unable to book a collection via our website you can arrange one via our main phone line 08708 501150, access our services through your local Post Office or book online using a computer running Microsoft Windows / Mac OSX with either internet explorer/Mozilla Firefox browser installed.

If you require any further assistance please do not hesitate to contact us again at this email address: parcelforce@parcelforce.co.uk.


Please ensure that you include the full history of your enquiry so far in order to help us respond to you as quickly as possible.


Our hours of business are: Mon to Fri: 8am to 7pm and Sat: 8:30am to 12:30pm


Kind regards



John Jopling

v8YKxgHe
January 29th, 2009, 03:08 PM
Pipps,

That is a very similar response to what I had.


The compatibility issue appears to lie with the Linux operating system and browser configuration you are currently using. I would advise to update to the latest version of both pieces of software as this may rectify the issue.

That is complete crap. If that is so (which it isn't), how was I able to view their website by faking my user-agent? Pipps, if you are able to ask them that sort of question that would be great.

Pipps
January 29th, 2009, 03:10 PM
Pipps, if you are able to ask them that sort of question that would be great.
I would be delighted to. Although we'd better both be prepared for something even more retarded in return, from the ParcelFarce primates!

v8YKxgHe
January 29th, 2009, 03:21 PM
Pipps, maybe it would be a good idea to tell them that the email convo is an open discussion on a popular forum for all to see (unless doing so actually breaches some kind of privacy between client and support).

albinootje
January 29th, 2009, 03:33 PM
I also got caught out by my 'unsupported' browser and OS. Luckily, switching the User Agent to fake it as MSIE7 on Vista worked,

Good for you.
But that's not really solving the problem at the root.
And the worse thing is that this can make the shady web browser statistics (in mass media) even more unreliable.

Giant Speck
January 29th, 2009, 03:37 PM
This sounds more like ignorance than it sounds like discrimination.

I'm just saying...

Mason Whitaker
January 29th, 2009, 03:59 PM
This sounds more like ignorance than it sounds like discrimination.

I'm just saying...Yes, but there is a chance that some web developer is just laughing his head off at us right now.

Honestly, This amount of stupidity deserves to be returned with media attention.

Johnsie
January 29th, 2009, 04:54 PM
The problem is not at the operating system or client end of things, the problem is embedded in THEIR code on THEIR machines.

They are quite clearly the ones ones who created the if/case statement that deals with different browsers. That statement in THEIR code clearly doesn't work properly if it denies service to a large number of people, especially when those people are using standards compliant browsers.

ParcelForce is subsidised by the UK taxpayer so should be making an extra special effort to make their services accessible to the people who fund them.

The world wide web isn't an exclusive club for Apple and Microsoft customers, nor should it be.

sydbat
January 29th, 2009, 05:01 PM
You realize these are standard form letters, right? That two of you got virtually the same responses tells me that they have gone through this before and have created this form letter to brush you off. They obviously have no intention of doing anything about it and hope that enough of these BS responses will make you go away. I've seen it before...way too many times...

Pipps
January 29th, 2009, 05:02 PM
This sounds more like ignorance than it sounds like discrimination...

You have a good point. Though it is arguable that all discrimination is ultimately due to ignorance of some form.

hanzomon4
January 29th, 2009, 05:15 PM
Can you view the sites src and email them the offending code?

Johnsie
January 29th, 2009, 05:40 PM
I'm about to send them the following email, but I would welcome any suggestions or amendments:



Hello, I was trying to send a parcel using the system on your website. Unfortunately the software on your website appears to be denying me access based on my operating system. I am using a web standards compliant web browser but the message I'm getting suggests that your software doesn't work on Linux. I find it interesting that your software DOES support Windows 98 which isn't even supported by Microsoft anymore and therefore cannot be regarded as secure. That is highly irresponisble and puts your customers personal information at risk. There have been no security updates to Windows 98 for several months. As a regular customer I am disappointed that your company is denying access to many users and providing the service to Microsoft and Apple customers even though sometimes that access is clearly insecure. I will now have to consider taking my business elsewhere. If your software is not up-to-date or working properly then someone at your company should fix it and make it compliant with the international web standards that are clearly defined and widely accepted by the majority of Internet companies. Your company has a responsibility here, your people write the software, therefore they should be ensuring that it works according to web standards.

I do hope these problems can be rectified as soon as possible so that all people using standards compliant browsers can get it to work. The web is not some exclusive club for Apple and Microsoft customers, nor should it be.

John M.



It'll be interesting to see if they respond to the Windows '98 stuff. It kinda makes them look pretty bad that their system may actually be putting their customers at risk.

lykwydchykyn
January 29th, 2009, 05:49 PM
Someone please explain to them that it is in fact ENTIRELY possible to write a web page that works with all platforms and operating systems. It's called WRITING TO STANDARDS. The w3c hosts a free standards compliance analyzer for pages:

http://validator.w3.org/

If their code is written to standards and uses standards-based client-side technology (e.g., no ActiveX), then it truly is the fault of the client OS if things don't work.

Seeing as Linux has multiple standards-compliant browsers (sadly, firefox is not quite one of them), it should be supportable.

sydbat
January 29th, 2009, 06:06 PM
@Johnsie - Just to reiterate my previous post, they will send you a form letter. Nothing you mention in your email to them will be addressed personally (although I hope they actually read your email and respond appropriately).

Giant Speck
January 29th, 2009, 06:29 PM
You have a good point. Though it is arguable that all discrimination is ultimately due to ignorance of some form.

What I meant was that it seems more like the dispute is caused more by ParcelForce's ignorance about Linux (or perhaps computers in general) and NOT a deliberate attempt to discriminate against Linux users.

Pipps
January 29th, 2009, 07:44 PM
I'm about to send them the following email, but I would welcome any suggestions or amendments:



It'll be interesting to see if they respond to the Windows '98 stuff. It kinda makes them look pretty bad that their system may actually be putting their customers at risk.

Johnsie, that is incredible! Hats off to you for a brilliantly divisive angle on this!

No matter what template rubbish they send you in response the first time, just keep reiterating you central point to them again and again, and wait for them to attempt to respond to it.

Go get 'em! :)

Johnsie
January 29th, 2009, 07:59 PM
Surely they can only take so much informed criticism before they have to do something. I think pointing out their many flaws shows them and the rest of the world that their developers did a shoddy job.

Yes, they will probably send a generic reply, but they had to read at least some of the complaint to know which generic reply to send. The more holes shot in them by people in the know then the harder it will be for the developers to defend themselves.

The BBC were forced to make the Iplayer Linux compatible, let's hope the publicly funded foot-draggers at ParcelForce listen to their customers/funders and make the necessary improvments.

Mr. Picklesworth
January 29th, 2009, 08:05 PM
They're publicly funded and in the UK? In that case, they are knowingly propping up a monopoly (one which the EU really hates) with public money. They don't have a leg to stand on.

(Besides, don't services like postage usually have neutrality as one of their key philosophies?)

ajcham
January 29th, 2009, 08:08 PM
The BBC were forced to make the Iplayer Linux compatible, let's hope the publicly funded foot-draggers at ParcelForce listen to their customers/funders and make the necessary improvments.

Do they receive public-funding? I understand they are owned by the Government, but to my knowledge they still operate as a normal Limited company, and in fact pay taxes rather than receive taxpayers' money.

Johnsie
January 29th, 2009, 08:12 PM
Like Royal Mail they are subsidised by the UK government and have never been profitable. They are managed by a private company though. Royal Mail and Parcel Force also get tax breaks that other companies don't get. DHL recently took legal action with the government over the fact that ParcelForce was VAT exempt while other mailing companies have to pay.

Tom Mann
January 29th, 2009, 09:24 PM
Seems the OP is right enough.
EDIT: Just noticed that neither Vista or Apple is on the list of permitted operating systems, it seems they really don't want on-line business....

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w109/gn1v/AntiLinux-1.png

There's two things about the image on that post:
1. Vista is not listed as compatible
2. The webpage is a check-and-deny page. There could be a 'use anyway button' and disclaimer, but it goes looking for what OS + browser you have and denies you access to the site. It's not ignorance, it's discrimination.

Johnsie
January 29th, 2009, 09:40 PM
The reason Vista isnt there is probably because the software is old. Anyone got it work with Vista?

Vince4Amy
January 29th, 2009, 09:43 PM
I just went to Parcelforce.net on Vista and Fx 3.0.5 didn't login as I don't have and account, anyway the system specs thing showed this:


System Requirements Check
Your system has not met one of our system's requirements. Please follow the advised action(s) below:
Browser: Netscape 6 or higher
You should install Internet Explorer (version 6.0 or better). Additionally, certain administration management tasks will not succeed without upgrading to this browser
Plug-In: Adobe Acrobat
Correct

Tom Mann
January 29th, 2009, 09:56 PM
I'm more concerned about my second point...

ajcham
January 29th, 2009, 10:09 PM
I found this result amusing:
101454

Despite not being listed, Vista identifies as Windows NT and passes the test. Windows 7, above, also identifies as NT but is rejected. Not that I expect anyone to officially support Seven just yet, but it was interesting nonetheless.


2. The webpage is a check-and-deny page. There could be a 'use anyway button' and disclaimer, but it goes looking for what OS + browser you have and denies you access to the site. It's not ignorance, it's discrimination.

I wouldn't go as far as that. You make it seem as though some developer on their end is saying "take this, Linux-using, Communist scumbags". More likely, it is mere ignorance and technical ineptitude.

Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

Mason Whitaker
January 29th, 2009, 10:20 PM
This isn't discrimination or ignorance, its just stupid web developing -.-

Tom Mann
January 30th, 2009, 08:57 AM
Hanlon's razor: Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.

I've never heard of this term before, but looking back on my last post I can see it fits.

Altn8
March 24th, 2009, 11:05 PM
I just had the same too, awful service


http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w109/gn1v/AntiLinux-1.png

Pipps
March 25th, 2009, 12:32 AM
Please accept my sympathies!

It is disgusting! :(

Untitled_No4
May 28th, 2009, 09:38 AM
Unfortunately for the company I work for, Parcel Force are the only one who will ship paint, which means we have to use them.

Anyway, I decided to try and do something constructive instead of just moaning about it every time I need to hack their website using Firebug, and wrote an email to the European Commission Competition DG complaining about Parcel Force and their decision to block non Windows/Mac users (although they don't list Mac OS, their JavaScript code does accept Mac OS) from using their website for no technical reason.

Well, I got my answer today and I'm being told that my letter will be added to the ongoing case against Microsoft. I think that misses the point as my complaint has nothing to do with Microsoft and even if Microsoft makes all its code Open Source it still won't affect Parcel Force.

I'll still give myself a brownie point for at least trying, but it's back to Firebug for me.

frup
May 28th, 2009, 10:25 AM
All linux users who care could put parcelforce as their homepage, not only would it cost them bandwidth but they're going to see just how many Linux users there are. Having said that any self respecting user should not use them even with user agent switchers and letting everyone know how disgraceful their service is is important.

I have set their site as my homepage now. (parcelforce.net, where I could see the error, entering parcelforce.co.uk redirected to .com and I can't see the error on the main page)

I'm sending this via http://www.parcelforce.com/portal/pw/jump2?catId=26100673&mediaId=19900226

I would like to inform your company of an error in your system. (as seen on parcelforce.net)

Your company actively blocks Linux operating systems and Firefox users.

I have seen online your pre-formated responses to this problem, which are quite incorrect. Your code and systems are compatible with Linux and Firefox but your sites scripting blocks it on purpose.

I can't understand what benefit blocking paying customers has for your company.
The problem is not something you have to fix as such. Only the code that checks which systems your are using needs to be changed. Your site DOES work on linux and firefox if you merely change that.

Why you have this in place is incomprehensible to millions of happy Linux users all over the world. These people are active in support for the systems they use and generally highly intelligent, we all clearly have a better understanding of the Internet and how it works than the pre-written responses you have released show your own company to have.


They're not really fulfilling their corporate statement of responsibility either:


Doing the right thing

As part of the community, we have to be a good corporate citizen, earning trust and respect as a responsible organisation. We have to do the right thing for our customers and colleagues.

We do the right thing because our:

* Customers want to buy from companies that share their values
* Colleagues want to work for companies with similar values that provide a healthy and safe environment
* Communities want companies that create the incomes, jobs and cohesion that build neighborhoods where people want to live and work.


Our CSR vision

Our CSR Vision incorporates 6 strands,

* An intergrated approach
* Legislation and Compliance
* Measurement, Accountability
* Research and Innovation
* Sustainabiliy


Our journey within this vision is represented in five stages, we are in the second stage of this five-stage process. Although in an organisation of our size and complexity we are more advanced in some areas than in others. A graphical representation of the 5 stage vision is available within our CSR Report.

More about CSR

Discover how we’ve won recognition for our Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) programme and see our CSR awards and rankings.

Review the framework that we use to deliver our CSR objectives and five-stage vision. Learn how we manage CSR.

Take a look at the various groups and committees who manage our CSR strategies and initiatives. See who’s responsible for CSR.

Learn about the key areas of CSR, including who manages it and the awards we’ve won so far. Explore our corporate responsibilities.

Post Office ®Royal MailParcelforce Worldwide
Terms &

master5o1
May 28th, 2009, 11:59 AM
This reminds me about that whole Foxxcon-bios deliberate incompatibility thread last year.

Untitled_No4
May 28th, 2009, 03:43 PM
The company I work for have a contract with Parcel Force which means we are slightly more important to them than the occasional customer (only slightly, because we're rather small), and I just remembered that recently a guy from Parcel Force phoned up to introduce himself to me as our sales contact and gave me his details, so I decided to email him asking that he raises the issue with the appropriate people, and offering my help to amend their JavaScript code for free.

I hope that if we are politely persist and keep nagging them about it eventually someone might decide that changing the code will be cheaper than to deal with Linux users.

The Toxic Mite
May 28th, 2009, 04:08 PM
Here is their first attempt at a reply:

Epic fail :/

Dimitriid
May 28th, 2009, 07:47 PM
All linux users who care could put parcelforce as their homepage...

No. What you are proposing is a Denial of Service attack, how is that going to change their mind about the "evil linux hackers" that get around their security?

Vote with your wallet. Just widely distribute extremely bad publicity for them everywhere and attempt to do the opposite: get less traffic on their site, point people into the competing website quoted on this thread already.

Pipps
May 30th, 2009, 11:11 AM
The company I work for have a contract with Parcel Force which means we are slightly more important to them than the occasional customer (only slightly, because we're rather small), and I just remembered that recently a guy from Parcel Force phoned up to introduce himself to me as our sales contact and gave me his details, so I decided to email him asking that he raises the issue with the appropriate people, and offering my help to amend their JavaScript code for free.

I hope that if we are politely persist and keep nagging them about it eventually someone might decide that changing the code will be cheaper than to deal with Linux users.
Great work! Thank you! :)

Pipps
May 30th, 2009, 11:13 AM
To all those who would prefer an alternative to ParcelForce, since being unable to access their website due to my Linux operating system, I have since found two companies which provide an entirely better service, for half of the price:

www.p4d.co.uk ; and
www.interparcel.co.uk

I hope Linux users experience fair treatment and success with these better suppliers.

If anyone knows of any others worth recommending, then please let us know!

ssam
June 19th, 2009, 09:38 AM
another reason to avoid them http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8107737.stm

obviously very clue full about computers

ukripper
June 19th, 2009, 10:04 AM
Ebuyer only use Royal Fail for very small items.

ShittyLink has the main contract.

Actually I have never had a problem with CityLink so my bastardization of their name is in jest.

In my opinion Ebuyer + CityLink = On time parcel. i am very happy with them.:popcorn:

Kazade
June 19th, 2009, 10:35 AM
In my opinion Ebuyer + CityLink = On time parcel. i am very happy with them.:popcorn:

Ebuyer is amazing. Citylink are the worst delivery company ever. On 2 occasions I've had to wait in for them to collect something and they haven't turned up and then told ebuyer that they called and I wasn't in.

They only deliver during working hours (i.e. when I'm not at home!) and the depots are few and far between on industrial estates in the middle of nowhere (I had to trek for an hour on public transport to pick up a network card).

Citylink are terrible. Royal mail / Parcel force though has never let me down.

That said, Parcel Force's responses in this thread are just unbelievable and I won't ever use them.

gn2
June 19th, 2009, 10:47 AM
Problem for me is you can't collect parcels at my local Citylink depot outwith working hours even though the depot is open and manned 24/7.

I once had a member of staff refuse to hand me a parcel (which was in the collection office just six feet away from the desk) because it was ten minutes after closing.

ukripper
June 19th, 2009, 02:54 PM
Ebuyer is amazing. Citylink are the worst delivery company ever. On 2 occasions I've had to wait in for them to collect something and they haven't turned up and then told ebuyer that they called and I wasn't in.

They only deliver during working hours (i.e. when I'm not at home!) and the depots are few and far between on industrial estates in the middle of nowhere (I had to trek for an hour on public transport to pick up a network card).


I normally get it delivered at work all my parcels from ebuyer via citylink so never had any problem in past 5 years with them. All turned up on time.

linuxguymarshall
June 19th, 2009, 03:14 PM
Just use a User Agent Switcher:

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/59

Makes Firefox on Linux (or any OS for that matter) look like IE6 on a Windows machine.
Sure we could do that but at this point it is not that the parcel could not be sent without modifying our User Agent it is the principle of the matter.

Kazade
June 19th, 2009, 04:42 PM
I normally get it delivered at work all my parcels from ebuyer via citylink so never had any problem in past 5 years with them. All turned up on time.

I get small deliveries to work and that's OK (I work in central London).. it was a TV I had trouble with... can't really fit that on the Tube at rush hour.

ukripper
June 22nd, 2009, 01:04 PM
I get small deliveries to work and that's OK (I work in central London).. it was a TV I had trouble with... can't really fit that on the Tube at rush hour.

Lol tell me about it. I work in central London as well I had to carry monitor in the tube as well luckily it was 19" LCD, thinking of a CRT in the tube just makes me laff..

frup
June 22nd, 2009, 01:13 PM
No. What you are proposing is a Denial of Service attack, how is that going to change their mind about the "evil linux hackers" that get around their security?

Vote with your wallet. Just widely distribute extremely bad publicity for them everywhere and attempt to do the opposite: get less traffic on their site, point people into the competing website quoted on this thread already.

absolutely not, that would be pointless. I'm going to presume they have some kind of monitoring similar to google analytics. What I want is to have their percentage of Linux users jump on their stats.

BigSilly
June 22nd, 2009, 02:57 PM
To all those who would prefer an alternative to ParcelForce, since being unable to access their website due to my Linux operating system, I have since found two companies which provide an entirely better service, for half of the price:

www.p4d.co.uk ; and
www.interparcel.co.uk

I hope Linux users experience fair treatment and success with these better suppliers.

If anyone knows of any others worth recommending, then please let us know!

I've used P4D loads of times from my Linux PC and had no bother at all, so I can certainly recommend them to any Linux user. To be fair, they offer a better service anyway, so no matter what you use you'll find them good to deal with.

Grant A.
June 23rd, 2009, 07:03 AM
This entire ordeal makes me sick.

However, good job to the person who reported this to the EU, and even though it's not Microsoft's problem, it's better than nothing. You threw a rock, missed one bird, and pegged another, good work. :D

Viva
June 23rd, 2009, 07:32 AM
We can update their wikipedia page with the incompatibility of their order page in linux
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parcelforce

olithered
October 29th, 2009, 04:07 PM
This crazy blocking is still in force :-/

gnuvistawouldbecool
October 29th, 2009, 04:37 PM
Anyone feel like emailing them to point out that their webiste isn't running Mac OS/Windows as a server, and are therefore fools:
http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parcelforce.com%2F


http://www.parcelforce.com was running Sun-ONE-Web-Server on Solaris 9/10 when last queried at 29-Oct-2009 15:22:24 GMT

As someone who isn't their customer this isn't really my fight....

Lem
October 29th, 2009, 08:30 PM
I had a simialr experience with KwikFit when I tried to order some tyres online. The website failed processing the order. So I rang them up and had the following conversation;

Hi, I am having problems finalising an order on your website.
Are you using Firefox?
Yes.
Well, you need to use Internet Explorer.
Fine, but I don't have Internet Explorer.
It comes on all PCs. You will still have it even if you have installed Firefox.
No, I do not have Internet Explorer. I can assure you of that.
If you go Start, then Run....
I don't have a Start button, this is a Linux PC.
Oh.. well we don't support Linux.
Or Apple OSX then I take it, as they don't have Internet Explorer either.
I think it works on Apple.
So, you support Safari and Internet Explorer only then?
No, just Internet Explorer.
So, how would it work on an Apple?, which is kind of irrelevant as I don't have one of those.
Er, can you try again with a Windows PC?
I don't have one (OK, a small lie - I have one in VirtualBox)
Ok, well maybe we can take your order over the phone and keep the web price.

Ok.. I got my cheap tyres, but surely it's a bit shortsighted to support IE only.

Untitled_No4
December 10th, 2009, 11:25 PM
Well, ParcelForce strategy of checking which operating system people are using has backfired since Windows 7 users are now complaining:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/12/10/parcelforce_shuns_windows_7_users/

Their stupid JavaScript browser/operating-system sniffer will have have to be updated soon, I guess, but I'm really not expecting them to do the sensible thing and remove this useless function completely and my guess is that Linux users will still have to trick ParcelForce to allow us to use their services.

speedwell68
December 10th, 2009, 11:34 PM
The easy answer is don't use Parcelforce, they aren't a very good courier service anyway. I use Parcel2Go, far better than Parcelforce.

Raffles10
December 10th, 2009, 11:39 PM
It is pretty funny though ! We need to address our 'red lights'. We really should be ashamed of ourselves. :tongue:

http://omploader.org/tMnlxeg (http://omploader.org/vMnlxeg)

NoaHall
December 10th, 2009, 11:43 PM
Why don't you support GNU/Linux! It's totally disgusting. I'm informing everyone I know, and I will tell them not use your service until you solve this CLEAR VIOLATION FREE MARKET CHOICE. Your own server runs Solaris, for crying out loud! Are you insane! Do you like monopolies? Is this what you like? Yeah? Shame they aren't in your favour then - parcel force isn't very popular - with good reason. Revolution!

SuperSonic4
December 10th, 2009, 11:45 PM
The easy answer is don't use Parcelforce, they aren't a very good courier service anyway. I use Parcel2Go, far better than Parcelforce.

Ditto that, I've always used DPD

Untitled_No4
December 11th, 2009, 08:50 AM
The easy answer is don't use Parcelforce, they aren't a very good courier service anyway. I use Parcel2Go, far better than Parcelforce.

It's not necessarily the easiest answer. The company I work for ships paint and the only courier who will ship and insure it are ParcelForce. The easiest answer for me is to override their JavaScript by using bugzilla. It's not perfect and I wish they'd change that stupid script of theirs but this way I don't have to mask the fact that I'm using Linux and I hope that one day they will look at the user stats, see Linux up there and maybe consider removing the stupid check.

Pipps
December 12th, 2009, 12:28 PM
I now bless the day that ParcelFarce stopped me from using their inferior website.

I now also use Parcel2Go. Not only is it cheaper, but the collection and delivery service is significantly better, and their staff are incredibly polite and helpful.

Parcel2Go FTW! :)

gnomeuser
December 12th, 2009, 12:49 PM
To the last, I grapple with thee; From Hell's heart, I stab at thee; For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee ParcelForce

3rdalbum
December 12th, 2009, 01:12 PM
It's not necessarily the easiest answer. The company I work for ships paint and the only courier who will ship and insure it are ParcelForce. The easiest answer for me is to override their JavaScript by using bugzilla. It's not perfect and I wish they'd change that stupid script of theirs but this way I don't have to mask the fact that I'm using Linux and I hope that one day they will look at the user stats, see Linux up there and maybe consider removing the stupid check.

If they see Linux in the statistics, then they'll probably think "Oh, the current system works with Linux." and then not change anything.

LookTJ
December 12th, 2009, 01:17 PM
If they see Linux in the statistics, then they'll probably think "Oh, the current system works with Linux." and then not change anything.
Their web developer didn't have an open mind at the time of developing this site. And totally brainwashed the rest of the company I suspect.

Shame for the English/British :(

Untitled_No4
April 20th, 2010, 10:33 AM
Well, if you go ParcelForce today to book a delivery you get the following message:


Every time you try to access our parcel sending pages we check to ensure that your operating system and browser settings will allow you to use our system without any technical issues.

Our software shows that the operating system/browser you are using to access our system is not one we support. You may continue if you wish however we cannot guarantee completion of the booking process. If you would like further information about the operating systems and browsers we support please click on the button below.

I consider it a success since they only make me click a button rather than have to change their code using Firebug.

If I'm honest I'm not sure if it was a move targeted to support Linux operating systems or just them coming to the realisation that the world has moved away from WinXP + IE6 and that testing for every possible combination of the versions of things they want to support is going to be tiresome.

Or, in other words, thank you Windows 7.

asddf
April 20th, 2010, 10:46 AM
Operating system your using would make absolutely no difference to any web technology, dynamic languages just push out HTML based on conditions to your browser, which they support.

Giant Speck
April 20th, 2010, 11:13 AM
If I'm honest I'm not sure if it was a move targeted to support Linux operating systems or just them coming to the realisation that the world has moved away from WinXP + IE6 and that testing for every possible combination of the versions of things they want to support is going to be tiresome.

Maybe they were tired of receiving e-mails from Linux users equating "unsupported" with "deliberate discrimination".

Kazade
April 20th, 2010, 11:37 AM
Maybe they were tired of receiving e-mails from Linux users equating "unsupported" with "deliberate discrimination".

It *is* discrimination. It's like claiming you are unsupported because you live in a bungalow. It's just mindless discrimination or at the very least, complete developer incompetence.

madnessjack
April 20th, 2010, 11:53 AM
It *is* discrimination. It's like claiming you are unsupported because you live in a bungalow. It's just mindless discrimination or at the very least, complete developer incompetence.
No it's them covering their back-sides (legally). They cannot guarantee on a custom OS that they haven't researched that their web-site will work.

Giant Speck
April 20th, 2010, 12:13 PM
It's like claiming you are unsupported because you live in a bungalow.

No, it's not. It's like claiming you are unsupported because your company doesn't use (or know enough about) that operating system.

Kazade
April 20th, 2010, 12:19 PM
No, it's not. It's like claiming you are unsupported because your company doesn't use (or know enough about) that operating system.

Except it doesn't make any sense. The only times that I know of that the operating system has any effect on the rendering of a web page is when Flash is involved, and even then they are minor glitches in z-index ordering, and they are rare* - certainly nothing that warrants blocking a website for.

It is discrimination when you purposely block a section of your users and you have no logical reason to do so. If they were blocking on *browser* then I'd agree with you, but as it's the OS (which just isn't relevant) then I disagree. Again, I blame developer incompetence.

* Browser vs Flash issues are more common, but Browser + OS + Flash issues are stupidly rare.

madnessjack
April 20th, 2010, 01:02 PM
It is discrimination when you purposely block a section of your users and you have no logical reason to do so. If they were blocking on *browser* then I'd agree with you, but as it's the OS (which just isn't relevant) then I disagree. Again, I blame developer incompetence.

You are making this up. They are not "blocking" Linux, they are blocking non-Windows or non-Mac. There is a big difference.

Kazade
April 20th, 2010, 02:01 PM
You are making this up. They are not "blocking" Linux, they are blocking non-Windows or non-Mac. There is a big difference.

What am I making up exactly? OK, so they are blocking non-Windows or non-Mac my point is that the OS in the user-agent string is not a suitable reason for serving conditional logic in a website. I'm not saying they are on an all out offensive against just Linux, I'm saying that it is poor web development.

Dr Belka
April 20th, 2010, 02:07 PM
It didn't like my chrome browser either...

Kazade
April 20th, 2010, 02:13 PM
It didn't like my chrome browser either...

At least they have changed it now so you can continue. I think what they've done now is OK (their browser detection is still horribly broken though, it doesn't recognize Firefox 3.6.3). I still think operating system is redundant on that list though, the OS doesn't affect page rendering like different browsers do.

EDIT: Unless of course you include Mobile OSs - I didn't think of that.

coffeecat
April 20th, 2010, 03:04 PM
I still think operating system is redundant on that list though, the OS doesn't affect page rendering like different browsers do.

Slightly OT, but Parcelforce is not the only offender. Yahoo frets about the OS rather than the browser too. Yahoo + Lucid + Firefox 3.6.3:

madjr
April 20th, 2010, 06:22 PM
email them with this forum thread

they suck if they behave like that, they need to adapt to their customers not create barriers, am sure they will only get worse, so you got out in time

you found a better company for your business

soldersplash
May 9th, 2010, 12:58 AM
I couldn't help it, I had to email them...:p


Dear Sir/Madam,
I am thoroughly disappointed that your online parcel sending system only officially supports Microsoft operating systems. I will be using another company to send my parcels, one of the many who do not _require_ me to support the ongoing monopoly that is Microsoft.

You are fools to yourselves in this matter, what ever OS I use has no bearing on how the browser interacts with your website anyway. Your site should be web standards compliant as is my browser. That is the point of there being _standards_. You do not have to test all combinations of OS + Browser, only make sure your site is standards compliant. See http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/ for more info.

I don't expect a proper answer but maybe some one is counting the number of non-M$ customers that are turning away....;)

soldersplash
May 9th, 2010, 01:30 AM
And then I emailed CSR@royalmail.com, Corporate Social Responsibility?


Dear Sir/Madam,

I recently found that you online parcel sending form at https://ship.parcelforce.net is only quaranteed to work properly if I am using a Microsoft Operating System. I receive the following message:-


"Every time you try to access our parcel sending pages we check to ensure that your operating system and browser settings will allow you to use our system without any technical issues.

Our software shows that the operating system/browser you are using to access our system is not one we support. You may continue if you wish however we cannot guarantee completion of the booking process. If you would like further information about the operating systems and browsers we support please click on the button below.



Operating System: Linux (Ubuntu) Your Operating System should be one of the following:
Windows 2000 (SP4 or better)
* Windows XP (SP1 or better)
* Windows Vista
* Windows 7
*
Browser: Firefox 3.0.19 Correct
Plug In: Adobe Acrobat Correct"


You can clearly see that the site is telling me I _should_ be running a Microsoft Windows Operating System.

I have sent the following email of complaint to ParcelForce customer services.

>Dear Sir/Madam,
>I am thoroughly disappointed that your online parcel sending system >only officially supports Microsoft operating systems. I will be using >another company to send my parcels, one of the many who do not >_require_ me to support the ongoing monopoly that is Microsoft.
>
>You are fools to yourselves in this matter, what ever OS I use has no >bearing on how the browser interacts with your website anyway. Your >site should be web standards compliant as is my browser. That is the >point of there being _standards_. You do not have to test all >combinations of OS + Browser, only make sure your site is standards >compliant. See http://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/ for more info.

However, the chances of them doing anything about the issue seem slim since many have tried and failed before me to get them to amend their web site. See http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1044573 for the sorry tale over the last 16 months or so. I believe this has been an issue for many people for longer than that though. See http://parker1.co.uk/blog/?p=31 were the same issue was hit in summer 2007!

Please can you explain to me in what way your company attempting to tie customers in to the ongoing monopoly that is Microsoft is in any way Socially Responsible?

If you doubt my describing Microsoft as a monopoly then please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Microsoft_competition_case for an ongoing listing of the EU's need to curb Microsoft over anti competitiveness from 1993 to date.

Yours sincerely,

bazzer
December 7th, 2011, 06:52 PM
Thread from the dead!

But still very much a problem for me. Trying to get a parcel collected is just simply a no-go if you don't have a Windows computer. Wine is frankly, laughable. IE7 being the latest browser you might have a hope to install - and it doesn't work anyway.

Parcelforce should be ashamed really.

Elfy
December 7th, 2011, 06:58 PM
Thread closed - rest in the back of a red van peace