Rabid Linux "fans" threating users is unacceptable

[matthekc]

Two major Linux stories made the news in the last few months in which somebody was "wrong about Linux". These people may not have understood Linux and perhaps they cast a bad light on it. That's acceptable people are not always going to understand. They may need some help to use Linux or even understand how software can be free.
What is unacceptable is that in both of these cases the "fans" of Linux are drowning out the positive message with negativity. Worse yet they are threatening and belittling people. The community I have seen in the last two months is not one I recognize nor would I want to be associated with it.
If you E-mail somebody in Linux advocacy mode keep it professional. If the E-mails and message coming from the community continues to be negative we will scare away new and existing Linux users. If you need to vent a little that's what Digg comments are for.

The teacher who simply didn't know you could get a free OS actually felt threatened
http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/character-assasinations-aint-us.html

The college student who didn't know she didn't have to use the dial-up CD or how to use open office. Received comments as ugly as you don't deserve a degree.
http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9682258

I'm going to put this on Digg lets sent a community message loud and clear that is unacceptable behavior.

[matthekc]

http://digg.com/linux_unix/Rabid_Linux_fans_threating_users_is_unacceptable

[ushimitsudoki]

I agree. It's unacceptable to mock or harass people because they are ignorant.

If someone is ignorant, the proper thing to do is politely and courteously try to educate them. If they aren't interested, then walk away.

It's never OK to mock or belittle people, even if they are doing it to you -- and I don't think the people in the links were doing so (In fact, I don't believe Helios' teacher story at all, but assuming it is true for this discussion).

It's more than just making Linux/Ubuntu look bad or scaring off new users - it's common human decency.

[TenPlus1]

Well said ushimitsudoki...

[jrusso2]

Two major Linux stories made the news in the last few months in which somebody was "wrong about Linux". These people may not have understood Linux and perhaps they cast a bad light on it. That's acceptable people are not always going to understand. They may need some help to use Linux or even understand how software can be free.
What is unacceptable is that in both of these cases the "fans" of Linux are drowning out the positive message with negativity. Worse yet they are threatening and belittling people. The community I have seen in the last two months is not one I recognize nor would I want to be associated with it.
If you E-mail somebody in Linux advocacy mode keep it professional. If the E-mails and message coming from the community continues to be negative we will scare away new and existing Linux users. If you need to vent a little that's what Digg comments are for.

The teacher who simply didn't know you could get a free OS actually felt threatened
http://linuxlock.blogspot.com/2008/12/character-assasinations-aint-us.html

The college student who didn't know she didn't have to use the dial-up CD or how to use open office. Received comments as ugly as you don't deserve a degree.
http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=9682258

I'm going to put this on Digg lets sent a community message loud and clear that is unacceptable behavior.

You don't have to travel far to find this behavior. Its rampant. Just read testimonials and experiences in this forum and read the negative posts about Ubuntu or Linux and see how the new users are treated.

[matthekc]

It's unfortunate she didn't find a Linux users group or a Linux user in the schools IT program to help her. I don't know about her school but our IT program has a few Linux users and a couple of Linux aware teachers. So she went to a consumer advocacy group at her local news. This should have been the end of it but the reporters story didn't wait for the happy ending which did occur.

Maybe the situation was a little foolish perhaps buying a product your completely unfamiliar with to help you get through school is unwise.
The Linux community did fail her and then it attacked her. She could have resolved her issues from these very forums but somehow dell was unable to help her or guide her here. Her school most likely has a competent Linux user but she was unable to find one. For all our advocacy and claiming we want new users this seems like a complete failure.

There should be a Lug at every major college but for some reason there isn't maybe we just are not as motivated as we claim. I know a few Linux users at my college but there is no Lug perhaps I failed this girl as well.

[jenkinbr]

It's unfortunate she didn't find a Linux users group or a Linux user in the schools IT program to help her. I don't know about her school but our IT program has a few Linux users and a couple of Linux aware teachers. So she went to a consumer advocacy group at her local news. This should have been the end of it but the reporters story didn't wait for the happy ending which did occur.

Maybe the situation was a little foolish perhaps buying a product your completely unfamiliar with to help you get through school is unwise.
The Linux community did fail her and then it attacked her. She could have resolved her issues from these very forums but somehow dell was unable to help her or guide her here. Her school most likely has a competent Linux user but she was unable to find one. For all our advocacy and claiming we want new users this seems like a complete failure.

There should be a Lug at every major college but for some reason there isn't maybe we just are not as motivated as we claim. I know a few Linux users at my college but there is no Lug perhaps I failed this girl as well.
The article posted by the OP states that the school disterict runs over 100 linux servers, and uses FOSS on both Windows and Mac images.

[bapoumba]

Oh.. Not sure what to do with half of this thread.
I'm closing for now, please be patient, I'd like some additional input from the Staff. Thanks.

[bapoumba]

9 posts were removed. I've also removed posts quoting the ones going to be deleted. Editing them out would not make any sense.
Please keep the discussion constructive, thanks.

Thread reopened.

[matthekc]

Wrong or right the community needs to have this discussion out. For better or worse we need to decide to support everyone or slow Linux adoption. I think even objectionable comments should stay.
If we don't have this conversation we will keep having these media events which are worse than an ugly thread.

[DigitalDuality]

d

[Sealbhach]

Wrong or right the community needs to have this discussion out. For better or worse we need to decide to support everyone or slow Linux adoption.

I Dugg your Digg effort but I don't think endless discussion will change human nature much. I'm very happy with what I see on the Absolute Beginners Forum, the Ubuntu community is one Linux community that really rocks.

Further, we can't get into controlling people, it never worked and never will. Don't waste time on it - there's enough good Ubuntu people out there going about their work quietly.


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[ice60]

i feel sorry for her, she obviously doesn't care for computers, and now every jumped-up nerd (picture rows of pens in top pocket, side-parting, buck-toothed, thick glasses and boring as hell) is telling her how stupid she is, i'm sure she really cares what they all think lol.

[matthekc]

Most Humans respond to feedback from their "community" if we can make a message that this is bad behavior it may help.

[iamgillespie]

I think we should find a way to float this video around a little more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODQ4WiDsEBQ&feature=PlayList&p=2AC2015D331B1601&index=2

[iampriteshdesai]

Agreed the girl didn't ask help to the right people, but threatning her was completely wrong and perhaps the reason for 0.75% share.

[cardinals_fan]

Sick, sick, sick.

[ticopelp]

While I agree that it is unlikely to change much, I do think it's important to make clear that this is not what the Ubuntu community and philosophy is all about. I think that woman's behavior was a bit silly, but to say she "doesn't deserve a degree"? How nasty. Especially coming from Ubuntu users.

Now, Gentoo users on the other hand, you expect that kind of abuse...


(just kidding Gentoo folks.)

[SomeGuyDude]

9 posts were removed. I've also removed posts quoting the ones going to be deleted. Editing them out would not make any sense.
Please keep the discussion constructive, thanks.

Thread reopened.

That -was- constructive. I was explaining why I don't agree that these people should be coddled and why the Linux community shouldn't be burdened with some responsibility to be extra super duper nice to anyone who gets into a pickle because they haven't done even the most basic research into what they're doing.

I'm actually offended that I received my second infraction in as many days over a post that flamed no one, contained no harsh language, was not blasphemous or racist. I actually got censored because I offered a viewpoint you didn't particularly like and it's absurd. Be reasonable, come on now.

[earthpigg]

I think we should find a way to float this video around a little more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODQ4WiDsEBQ&feature=PlayList&p=2AC2015D331B1601&index=2

<3 that video.


I'm actually offended that I received my second infraction in as many days over a post that flamed no one, contained no harsh language, was not blasphemous or racist. I actually got censored because I offered a viewpoint you didn't particularly like and it's absurd. Be reasonable, come on now.

the self-censorship that we are expected to practice here reminds me of the practices of the media of certain eastern-european nations during the cold war.

i recall a thread title that a mod chanced from "M$" to "MS" not to long ago.... is it immature to put "M$" in a thread title in the opinion of some? yes. so what? ;)

[matthekc]

@ someguydude

I can understand not enjoying supporting people who are lazy or clueless.
However people are going out of their way to threaten and ridicule these people.
As one of the deleted post said in a way mistakes are part of learning. She made some mistakes but we can help her learn.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

And frankly, if the reactions keep those types away from linux, i say all the better.

I would prefer that the destructive trolls who made those reactions stay away from Linux, but that's not going to happen. This isn't an exclusive club. Hell, it isn't a club. We're all individuals. Don't encourage stereotypes, and stop let the media paint us as all a single entity.

[SomeGuyDude]

@ someguydude

I can understand not enjoying supporting people who are lazy or clueless.
However people are going out of their way to threaten and ridicule these people.
As one of the deleted post said in a way mistakes are part of learning. She made some mistakes but we can help her learn.

I get that, believe me I do. But at some point people have to stop taking these people and holding their hands and saying "it's okay, it's not your fault, let us help you" and start saying "get your head on straight, use some common sense".

I 100% believe that you dropped $1100 on a computer with no clue what was on it and were so completely clueless by another operating system that it caused you to drop out of school, you deserve to get slapped around. Death threats and whatever? Yeah that's a bit much. But this girl took things public. It's not like it's the kind of story that ends up on the police blotter.

What also annoys me is this notion that the "linux community" is in fact a cohesive unit as opposed to the "windows community". Like every Linux user is responsible for all the other ones. I'm annoyed at those idiots for taking things too far, but I'm not going to be burdened with the responsibility of trying to counter-act the actions of every moron out there.

I get that we all want to act like we're a big happy family, but we aren't. We're people who all happen to use the same kernel on our computers. I don't have a Linux membership card, I don't have a roster of other Linux users, and I don't feel any kinship with anyone more than I would on a forum about Xbox Live or powerlifters.

So, to sum up, I feel no need to "counteract" some mean comments made by Linux users, and I don't feel bad for these people anyway. I'm sorry if I'm not cuddly enough for some, but in the big picture, feeling bad for a girl for getting made fun of for doing something dumb is incredibly low on my priority list.

[Sealbhach]

Has anybody seen those comments posted on Facebook? I'd like to know exactly what was said. Death threats? I seriously doubt that.


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[Chame_Wizard]

No wonder that M$ is laughing us out.:confused:

[spectre_hfx]

.

[Frak]

As for the case of the teacher who confiscated linux dists claiming that they were illegal and that nothing is free, I have absolutely no sympathy for her. It is again unfortunate that she was harassed, but maybe she should have thought about that before harassing that young boy.

So a teacher sees a student trying something new and exciting, pushing the boundaries of his knowledge and her first reaction was to shut this down?

This is not a teaching style I would want in my education system. She should be severely reprimanded, if not fired.

Aye. To me, the Linux community is like a bunch of loosely-knit mafias. They help people with little to no payment in return. The mafias are not keen of each other, though. The RH mafia does not like, nor hate, the Debian mafia. They would just like it if they stayed away from each other, and they'll take what they need. Though, when somebody talks bad about the mafia(s), some bonding occurs where all the mafias become one large mob that defends each other by concentrating at the source. It's sort of like an attack on a nation; the people living in the nation don't necessarily like, nor dislike, each other, but if another nation attacks them, they stick together and defend each other.

A real event, related to a metaphor, related to a real situation.

I'm on a roll today with weird metaphors and cake.

[aysiu]

Actually, what's wrong in both those cases is what is currently passing for tech journalism these days...

[Frak]

Actually, what's wrong in both those cases is what is currently passing for tech journalism these days...
Aye, seriously. +1

[Grant A.]

9 posts were removed. I've also removed posts quoting the ones going to be deleted. Editing them out would not make any sense.
Please keep the discussion constructive, thanks.

Thread reopened.

You edited out a side of the conversation, because it conflicted with your interests? Major abuse of power. I find it ironic you believe in Free software, and censorship at the same time.

Honestly, I don't care who uses what. And sometimes, flaming is warranted. If someone doesn't research something before they buy it, or is a die-hard fanboy, I see no problem in flaming them out.

Sometimes I think this "politically correct" society we live in is much too out of hand. Baby feeding someone forever is ridiculous, our society's babied behavior and ability to not buck-up and face the real world is just plain ridiculous. I am not in favor of flaming out people who are ignorant, but I am in favor of flaming out people who are stupid.

Ignorant - Not having a knowledge of all of the facts; oblivious.

Stupid - Ignoring common sense situations, and failing to do something of the common thought known to be required to do something.

These words can't be used interchangeably.

[BGFG]

many members of this community suffer from underdog syndrome, that will not change for some time.
Still, i can see where the linux extremists are coming from. light yourself on fire with linux tattoed to your forhead singing of all it benefits and you'll probably get a footnote in a tech magazine.

Someone on the internet propogates blatant lies and inaccuracies about a linux distribution, and it flies around the net masquerading as truth. Seems like the only press FOSS can get is bad press.Something smells amiss. Nevermind the speed stability and immunity from 99.* % of all viruses. Not worthy of mention.

Linux made the pretty lady buy a bad notebook and drop out of school. shame on us.

[kspncr]

Actually, what's wrong in both those cases is what is currently passing for tech journalism these days...

Thanks aysiu, I'm glad somebody said it...

[Grant A.]

Linux made the pretty lady buy a bad notebook and drop out of school. shame on us.

There's an emacs command for that now.

[overdrank]

I'm actually offended that I received my second infraction in as many days
If you have issue with Moderatoration please post in the Resolution Center not the thread.

You edited out a side of the conversation, because it conflicted with your interests? Major abuse of power.

The post that were removed violated the COC.

Be respectful of all users at all times. This means please use etiquette and politeness. Treat people with kindness and gentleness. If you do this the rest of the code of conduct won't need more than a cursory mention.

[cardinals_fan]

There's an emacs command for that now.
C-a + C-T + C-| + C-6 + C-q, right?

Moderatoration

That word is epic. I deem it "word of the day".

[DeadSuperHero]

The problem is, you can't force knowledge on people, as doing so is just as ignorant as the ignorance you're trying to correct in the first place.

I say just let people be. Let the ignorant be ignorant. If they bother you, politely correct them. If you disagree with them, back up your answers with more logic than emotion.

Is it wrong to berate people who don't understand something? I personally think so. However, I also think that it's essential to correct a problem if someone really doesn't understand something. It's kind of like when my dad called Linux "A hippie OS where everyone wants free stuff to beat a normal company."

To me, that's a bit ignorant. But, my response is simply "Hey, now. I like it, and it's done what I want it to."

[Grant A.]

That word is epic. I deem it "word of the day".

Well, his name is overdrank did you really expect him to use the word moderation? :lol:

[mkendall]

The problem is, you can't force knowledge on people, as doing so is just as ignorant as the ignorance you're trying to correct in the first place.

"You can lead a horticulture, but you can't make her think." -Dorothy Parker (http://womenshistory.about.com/od/quotes/a/dorothy_parker.htm)

[chucky chuckaluck]

Death threats and whatever?

death threats? are you kidding? (maybe she misunderstood what it mean s to be "hacked to death".)

[cardinals_fan]

death threats? are you kidding? (maybe she misunderstood what it mean s to be "hacked to death".)
http://celettu.wordpress.com/2008/12/12/beranger-is-right/#comments

Not my blog, but some people need professional help, either for their bloodthirsty nature or twisted sense of humor.

[SomeGuyDude]

http://celettu.wordpress.com/2008/12/12/beranger-is-right/#comments

Not my blog, but some people need professional help, either for their bloodthirsty nature or twisted sense of humor.

Really? You think that's rough? THAT? It's the internet. Surf Fazed or Fark, some of the rougher message boards, hell check out a -chan if you're really feeling spicy. One guy saying "you're a jerk go kill yourself" is so hilariously tame I actually scrolled past it expecting something actually bad to be below it.

UF is a very, very, VERY sanitized forum. The kinda stuff that gets deleted on here and the kind of posts that get members penalized is so mild that I think a lot of people have developed a skewed sense of what's worth getting your knickers in a twist over.

Rule of the interwebs: people are jerkoffs and thanks to the anonymous nature of the net they will let their brains vomit out whatever bile they have floating around in there. You have to learn what to ignore and what to actually give a hoot about.

[Flimm]

Really? You think that's rough? THAT? It's the internet. Surf Fazed or Fark, some of the rougher message boards, hell check out a -chan if you're really feeling spicy. One guy saying "you're a jerk go kill yourself" is so hilariously tame I actually scrolled past it expecting something actually bad to be below it.

UF is a very, very, VERY sanitized forum. The kinda stuff that gets deleted on here and the kind of posts that get members penalized is so mild that I think a lot of people have developed a skewed sense of what's worth getting your knickers in a twist over.

Rule of the interwebs: people are jerkoffs and thanks to the anonymous nature of the net they will let their brains vomit out whatever bile they have floating around in there. You have to learn what to ignore and what to actually give a hoot about.
I disagree. The minority of Internet users are jerks and rude, and they shouldn't be allowed to spoil it for the rest of us. We shouldn't just get used to it. But let's start by being helpful ourselves.

[cardinals_fan]

Really? You think that's rough? THAT? It's the internet. Surf Fazed or Fark, some of the rougher message boards, hell check out a -chan if you're really feeling spicy. One guy saying "you're a jerk go kill yourself" is so hilariously tame I actually scrolled past it expecting something actually bad to be below it.

UF is a very, very, VERY sanitized forum. The kinda stuff that gets deleted on here and the kind of posts that get members penalized is so mild that I think a lot of people have developed a skewed sense of what's worth getting your knickers in a twist over.

Rule of the interwebs: people are jerkoffs and thanks to the anonymous nature of the net they will let their brains vomit out whatever bile they have floating around in there. You have to learn what to ignore and what to actually give a hoot about.
I'm aware of that. My point was that death threats, direct or otherwise, are a very real possibility from zealotous Linux users. I was responding to chucky's doubt as to whether her life had been threatened.

[matthekc]

Death threats, while not likely serious, would be the worst of it but even the lesser stuff is unacceptable. We are the Linux support system, PR department, and sales division. What kind of message does this debacle send to the greater Wisconsin area and people who read this on the net.
If you need to save a Microsoft word document in some compatible format and run an incompatible CD and their support department called you an idiot would you want to do business with them again would you recommend them to anyone?
These media events have the power to slow or even halt Linux adoption. Imagine if CNN picked this up for prime time we would all look like jerks.

[semitone36]

+1 and dugg

You cant have a revolution without a war.

While Im on the OP's side against flaming, I see this as Linux's debut. For over a decade Linux lived in the background as nothing more than a "hobby" for geeks. Now that the general public are being acquainted with it the status quo is being challenged. There will be the converts, there will be the resistants, the preachers of MS, Mac, and Linux, and there will be plenty of media coverage along the way.

I have a feeling that articles like these will become a weekly occurrence in the years to come.

[matthekc]

The digg article I made isn't going anywhere. At this point I hope somebody will pick this up on a blog do a little more research for examples and repost to digg.

[chucky chuckaluck]

I'm aware of that. My point was that death threats, direct or otherwise, are a very real possibility from zealotous Linux users. I was responding to chucky's doubt as to whether her life had been threatened.

if a linux user threatened to wipe boogers on my car, i'd take that seriously. death threats? nope. thanks for the link.

[cardinals_fan]

if a linux user threatened to wipe boogers on my car, i'd take that seriously. death threats? nope. thanks for the link.
Obviously, there aren't really emaciated guys in turtlenecks waiting outside her house with axes. However, I do believe that death threats are likely, even if they aren't serious.

[collinp]

*sigh* This has been occuring way too much. Linux "fans" are getting overly passionate about what they support all the way to hurtful and demeaning comments over ignorance. The Linux community members are putting what they support so much in a worse light than the articles/comments that put Linux in a bad light.

[airjaw]

Gonna go out and generalize here but this is my theory:

if you spend most of your time on a computer amassing vast amounts of complex technical information, you don't get as much experience or time to develop social skills or empathy. I would also guess that the type of people who spend most of their time hacking would less likely be empathetic people to begin with.

thus was born the arrogant technical god culture, where its become acceptable practice to flame ignorance and insult people.

not saying its good or bad, just observing what it is.
Ubuntu is in a unique situation where it is trying to be the "human friendly" distro, with a helpful rather than hurtful community. However, ubuntu is still a linux and a lot of the traditions and culture a of highly technical community/culture still apply.


as for the people that get offended when their religion is insulted, thats a whole nother story, but basically its because religion/philosophy is so tied to our values and our identity and our community that we feel the need to defend it when it is attacked. this is not necessarily a bad thing- your community has to be defended from time to time. it takes time to realize this and step back and learn not to take criticism as an attack. not everyone shares the same values or philosophy. also takes self-control not to lash out. this applies both in real life and on the interwebs.

[john183]

I can say that i agree that direct attacks at the lady are inappropriate, but i think that discussions such as the ones on the forums are fine. I am sorry, but if someone is going to make an a$$ out of themselves like this, then they deserve to be talked about. I would expect it to happen to me if i did what that lady did. Had she done her research and made an educated decision about what she was going to buy before dropping $1100 then i might feel slightly bad for her. Unfortunately she didn't and then she publicly tryed to blame Ubuntu for her own mistakes. That is just as unacceptable as people attacking her on her facebook page and things like that.

[overdrank]

Wow! I just noticed that my threads regarding the lady ordering a dell laptop with Ubuntu were deleted. I am glad that i can be censored as if i were living in China. Yes, i am ticked about this.

Are you speaking of this thread
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=6555305#post6555305

[john183]

yes i was, it seems that the thread i originally posted in was merged into another. I ended up finding my posts and thusly edited my post in this thread, I totally disagree with censorship. I put my *** on the line everyday so that people in the US can have the freedoms that they enjoy and take for granted, so when things i say get censored, it gets undermy skin really quick. My apologies for my original post in this thread.