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steveneddy
January 16th, 2009, 01:53 PM
Do you have an elitist attitude?

If so, why?

I read this article and I think that it brings the best of what we as promoters and users of Ubuntu, Linux and FOSS to light for non-Linux users.

We need to really focus on education of new users that post on our forums. Some find Ubuntu frustrating. Some take to it like a duck to water.

Article:

http://www.technewsworld.com/story/commentary/65853.html

My favorite line of the article:


So what the wounded newcomers sometimes interpret as condescension is actually more along the lines of teaching someone to ride a bicycle. It's not difficult to do, but it can only be done if the rider pushes through the initial doubt and confusion in order to experience the benefits.

Pogeymanz
January 16th, 2009, 02:32 PM
I'm not elitist. I especially try to be tactful when helping a newbie because I don't want them to get scared away.

But I just can't help feeling a little smug when someone wont put down Windows when all they do is browse the web and write emails and get viruses.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not a jerk. I never actually act like I'm better than anybody.

forrestcupp
January 16th, 2009, 04:59 PM
But I just can't help feeling a little smug when someone wont put down Windows when all they do is browse the web and write emails and get viruses.

But from their perspective, if all they want to do is browse the web and write emails, and they can do that just fine in Windows, why would they want to do something as technical as installing a whole new OS and setting up everything they just installed? All they wanted to do was browse the web and check email, for crying out loud. ;)

The people who want to just keep it simple aren't good candidates for Linux. They already have what they need, and they're not technical enough to give a darn about the morality of free software.

billgoldberg
January 16th, 2009, 05:09 PM
But from their perspective, if all they want to do is browse the web and write emails, and they can do that just fine in Windows, why would they want to do something as technical as installing a whole new OS and setting up everything they just installed? All they wanted to do was browse the web and check email, for crying out loud. ;)

The people who want to just keep it simple aren't good candidates for Linux. They already have what they need, and they're not technical enough to give a darn about the morality of free software.

True.

They could be better of with Linux, security wise, but they don't care nor feel like it.

NewJack
January 16th, 2009, 05:29 PM
But from their perspective, if all they want to do is browse the web and write emails, and they can do that just fine in Windows, why would they want to do something as technical as installing a whole new OS and setting up everything they just installed? All they wanted to do was browse the web and check email, for crying out loud. ;)

The people who want to just keep it simple aren't good candidates for Linux. They already have what they need, and they're not technical enough to give a darn about the morality of free software.

I have Hardy with the Edubuntu add-on installed on my kids machine (a 3 year old & a 5 year old) and they seem to get around just fine with it. If my kids can figure it out then anyone can.

P.S.: I am not a Linux Elitist at all, just a proud Linux User.

Barrucadu
January 16th, 2009, 05:34 PM
In person I'm incredibly elitist as a running joke, it's pretty fun.

Sealbhach
January 16th, 2009, 05:37 PM
When I first got Ubuntu I had to edit some config files to get my sound working and also my hsdpa modem, so it did make me feel like I was little l33t... but it's worn off now.

In fairness, unless you get Linux pre-installed you often have to learn and understand stuff most ordinary Windows users have never heard of, so it just comes with the territory I guess.

I put Ubuntu on my brother's laptop and he's been using it trouble free for about six months - he only uses it to go on teh internets and he's defintely not l33t. For people who only want to browse and use email, Ubuntu is the perfect solution.


.

SomeGuyDude
January 16th, 2009, 05:46 PM
It's not being elitist when you're genuinely better than everyone around you.

aysiu
January 16th, 2009, 05:47 PM
An elitist believes she is something special and that others beneath her are not good enough to belong to her group.

I am not an elitist.

But I could be perceived to be an elitist, because I definitely look down on some people, and it has nothing to do with Linux. It also has nothing to do with ability, aptitude, or knowledge. It has wholly to do with attitude.

If people take the attitude of (regardless of what operating system they use) "Yes, I use a computer 8 to 14 hours a day for 5-6 days of the week for both work/school and home, but I don't want to learn how to use a computer properly or learn how to take care of it so it will keep running well," then I look down on them, and I don't think they deserve to have the computers they have or to get help from other people.

If you call that elitist, well, then, I am an elitist.

But if someone is really trying hard to do everything she can and has trouble, I will do everything in my power to help her. It's all about attitude.

bekind2thenoob
January 16th, 2009, 05:53 PM
I have Hardy with the Edubuntu add-on installed on my kids machine (a 3 year old & a 5 year old) and they seem to get around just fine with it. If my kids can figure it out then anyone can.

But could they install it / set up multimedia playback?


P.S.: I am not a Linux Elitist at all, just a proud Linux User.

So you should be ;)

king.pest
January 16th, 2009, 05:59 PM
Do you have an elitist attitude?

If so, why?



ok, let me share my story.

when I began using linux a long time ago, I was a terrible elitist. I used slackware, compiled most of my software by hand, and thought any different approach is a manifestation of "weakness". but then I finished high school, went to university, got a job, and I just didn't have time to maintain my slackware system. when Ubuntu showed up in 2004, I downloaded the live iso and tried it -- it looked ok, so I installed it. once it was on my hard drive, I got disappointed, though - it was "too easy". I felt like I'm "too pro" for a distro targeted at a newbie, so I've installed gentoo and used it a while.
as time passed by, I realized that Ubuntu was a great distribution, and how it saved my time. I grew up, started helping other users (my girlfriend, among others), and realized that being an elitist is just childish.

after some time, when I started working as a sysadmin for a big company, I met a number of other people using Ubuntu, Fedora, or other "user friendly" distros. when I asked them if they don't fell elitist enough, they told me a story similar to mine. hence I believe, that being a linux/floss elitist is just a stage some of us need to pass by.

iamgillespie
January 16th, 2009, 06:09 PM
I like to think I am elite because I like to belong to exclusive groups but then I realize that I don't know nearly enough to be elite and would not meet the criteria because the other elitists would devour me and discard me. So I stay humble. Besides, elitism scares the children.

bailbath
January 16th, 2009, 06:13 PM
There is bound to be some Linux users who are elitist the same as in any group. A lot of the time people ask for help but don't give enough info and expect a quick solution. I think we all forget what problems we had when we used Windows and why we use Linux and it's the same with new users they forget why they are here and expect there problems to evaporate with one install. Some research before could have saved themselves a lot of trouble but we all have done the same.
I think anyone here who takes there own time to help others less experienced is a great way to 'give back' to the whole Linux world.
We all should remember that's why we help and try not to give a wrong impression that may appear elitist.
Ian

Cracauer
January 16th, 2009, 06:16 PM
I have an elitist attitude, but against Linux. FreeBSD is so much cleaner :)

perlluver
January 16th, 2009, 06:20 PM
I wouldn't say I am an elitist, sometimes I do have a good laugh, when I see someone that shouldn't own a computer... But I learn something new every day in these forums. I also learn everyday by googling things about Linux.

I guess the older you get, the more you need to learn, and just hope that you can remember what you have learned.

cardinals_fan
January 16th, 2009, 06:21 PM
I don't consider myself an elitist. If other people want to use Linux, that's great, and I'm happy to help them get started. What I have no patience for is people who act as if their beliefs are kosher and apply to everyone.

y@w
January 16th, 2009, 06:32 PM
I like to think I am elite because I like to belong to exclusive groups but then I realize that I don't know nearly enough to be elite and would not meet the criteria because the other elitists would devour me and discard me. So I stay humble. Besides, elitism scares the children.

Yeah, the more you learn, the more you realize you have no idea..

Though, it does get hard when users get frustrated and start getting mad immediately when they first start.

ticopelp
January 16th, 2009, 06:46 PM
In terms of computer use, I think the most elitist attitude I have is that I feel contempt for people who complain endlessly about their computer, but don't look into alternatives or bother to learn how to keep from getting viruses, adware, etc. Do you just like to complain, or do you want to do something about it?

I also feel intense frustration with people who claim they want to try something new (like Ubuntu), but don't want to learn or do anything to get there. It reeks of entitlement and laziness, two traits I find really undesirable.

When it comes to my using Linux, though, I'm constantly in the learning stages and I've made enough big mistakes to keep myself humble.

kaivalagi
January 16th, 2009, 06:48 PM
Interesting article...

Linux Elitism: Fact or Fiction?
http://www.linuxinsider.com/rsstory/65853.html

Eisenwinter
January 16th, 2009, 06:55 PM
I don't think you can consider this as elitism, but I sometimes act superior to people who come to Linux, but simply refuse to learn anything about it, and then give up because "it's too hard".

I don't act elitist in the sense of "oh, I'm superior to you, I'm better than you because I know more", but I just refuse to help them, and tell them to google things, etc, instead of helping them directly.

NewJack
January 16th, 2009, 07:31 PM
But could they install it / set up multimedia playback?

No, but can most Windows users? I don't think so. If it weren't pre-installed on their Dell, Sony, etc.. computer, Windows users would not be able to either. Basically I did the pre-install for them :)

My previous post was to show that kids (or anyone) can USE Ubuntu and that it isn't some mystical being. With the default installs of Ubuntu and the Edubuntu add-on, they can find Firefox, GCompris and games. My 3 year old can even open OoO Writer on her own because she just likes to type. She was able to figure out the icon for it on her own.

fissionmailed
January 16th, 2009, 08:21 PM
I often poke fun of people I know using windows but it's all in jest. Some people are better off in Windows. I wouldn't never go back full time to using Windows though. One thing I don't do for almost anyone is hand feed them. Sort of like someone converting a csh alias list to a bash alias list. I'll show them how to convert it and how bash aliases work but I'm not going to convert the list for them.

Sealbhach
January 16th, 2009, 08:37 PM
I like this article here about the Evolution of a Linux User (http://people.redhat.com/blizzard/evolution.txt).

It's funny because most of it is true.


.

uberdonkey5
January 16th, 2009, 11:51 PM
Its not suprising there is a thought of elitism. Pretty much every linux user knows what a windows user is talking about, but the converse is not true. Linux is really for people who want to dabble more, to learn more. The average windows user is certain to know less about computing than the average linux user. There's nothing wrong with that. Linux users welcome everyone do we not??

Elitism is stupid, if we want to comminicate and get others interested, but its like listening to a conversation between a surgeon and a general medical practioner. If you start working with linux you WILL learn more about your computer.

uberdonkey5
January 16th, 2009, 11:54 PM
I like this article here about the Evolution of a Linux User (http://people.redhat.com/blizzard/evolution.txt).

It's funny because most of it is true.


.

PS lol. Especially like the 'get a life' bit... still waiting (why else would I be writing on this forum?)

JoshuaRL
January 17th, 2009, 12:11 AM
I just have to give a shoutout to Tech News World and their growing Linux coverage. I started reading that site a long time ago, when I was on XP. LinuxInsider FTW!

For that article, it's really well written. In fact, it's getting added to my sig real soon.

tsali
January 17th, 2009, 03:09 AM
When I get too full of myself, a spend time with my dog.

I have learned a lot about loyalty, humility and unconditional love from him.

BTW, he knows nothing about installing linux and really has no interest in it...

Ancalagon82
January 17th, 2009, 04:21 AM
If people take the attitude of (regardless of what operating system they use) "Yes, I use a computer 8 to 14 hours a day for 5-6 days of the week for both work/school and home, but I don't want to learn how to use a computer properly or learn how to take care of it so it will keep running well," then I look down on them, and I don't think they deserve to have the computers they have or to get help from other people.

If you call that elitist, well, then, I am an elitist.


Depends on what skill level you're talking about. Change a tire, know how to check your fluids, that level, okay you got a point.

Rebuild and engine, swap a tranny, I think you are asking too much which does make you elitist.

MikeTheC
January 17th, 2009, 05:29 AM
I'm not an elitist. However, that doesn't mean I believe everyone to be my equal, either.

It's not that I'm so good, but rather that so many others suck so badly.

I don't believe in dumbing down or lowering expectations and requirements. If others want to be as decent as me, let them come up to my level. As it is, there are many who far surpass my level. What's everyone else's excuse?

MikeTheC
January 17th, 2009, 05:31 AM
BTW, he knows nothing about installing linux and really has no interest in it...

My cat does. In fact, I think he's learning how to code. I have yet to work up the courage to ask him which language, tho...

JoshuaRL
January 17th, 2009, 05:37 AM
What's everyone else's excuse?

Classy. :p


My cat does. In fact, I think he's learning how to code. I have yet to work up the courage to ask him which language, tho...

VISUAL BASIC! Ack!

MikeTheC
January 17th, 2009, 06:47 AM
VISUAL BASIC! Ack!
Oh noes!!!!!11!!!!11111

bufsabre666
January 17th, 2009, 06:48 AM
VISUAL BASIC! Ack!

probably purrrrl

SomeGuyDude
January 17th, 2009, 06:49 AM
99% of "elitism" isn't "elitism" so much as frustration and backlash against Linux misconceptions. Yeah, I'm gonna act like a jerk when people tell me Linux is a toy or it's just for nerds who want to tinker instead of doing actual work. You bet I'm gonna flaunt it every time they hit a big problem in Windows I don't have to deal with.

It's hard to be "can't we all just get along" when most people look down at Linux as something for geeks and hobbyists, while serious computer users stick with Windows. If I wasn't constantly inundated with comments about how "nothing is compatible" or "it's impossible to get it to work" I probably wouldn't act like a jerkoff every time they get a virus, but there you have it.

Besides, I genuinely believe Linux is better than OSX or Windows (haven't tried BSD). I don't think I'm smarter or a better person than anyone else, I just passionately believe many people would be better off with Linux. If I am then "elitist" for expressing such, call me elitist. Won't change me.

smartboyathome
January 17th, 2009, 07:40 AM
This goes nicely with the bolded link in my sig ("Don't preach Linux, mention it"). I don't act elitist mainly because I don't care what OS people use. Use what works for you, not what someone tells you to use.

lykwydchykyn
January 17th, 2009, 07:50 AM
I hate terms like "elitist". It's on the same order as words like "zealot" or "fanboy" that people throw out when they can't actually argue against someone's point of view, so they have to position the other person's point of view as an emotional or attitudinal problem rather than address their views on a reasonable level.

Which is more elitist:
- To assume that everyone asking for help with Linux is a complete moron who needs a step-by-step walkthrough of every procedure involved in solving their problem.
- To assume that a person asking for help is a reasonably intelligent individual capable of reading documentation, using a search engine, or asking follow-up questions when necessary.

Which is more elitist:
- To assume that a person who isn't using Linux and isn't a self-styled 'computer geek' is better off using OSX/Windows and shouldn't be bothered with an alternative.
- To assume a person who uses a computer regularly might be interested in a free alternative to their current system that may or may not prove to be a better fit for them.

Which is more elitist:
- To put everything you say in "layman's terms" or use simplified explanations for people.
- To be accurate and use appropriate terms in discussing a technical issue, so that you don't confuse the issue or mislead the other person.

Which is more elistist:
- Assuming a person who is ignorant wants to remain so
- Assuming that a person who is ignorant wants to learn

My answer for all of the above is 'b', how about you guys?

Ancalagon82
January 17th, 2009, 12:19 PM
What's everyone else's excuse?

You want a serious answer?

Okay, my job is to learn the art of killing. My mission is to close with, engage and destroy the enemies of the United States. I wanted to be able to take college, but as Infantry I don't have a schedule. I never know when I might be sent to Yakima, Rilea, or even 29 Palms. Jesus man, I barely have times to keep up with International Affairs (which considering my BS is in International Political Economics is something I like alot) much less learn how to freakin code. Forgive me for not living up to your standard.


Not everyone sits in front of a computer all god dmn day. Give us poor peons a break okay?

forrestcupp
January 17th, 2009, 01:31 PM
I have Hardy with the Edubuntu add-on installed on my kids machine (a 3 year old & a 5 year old) and they seem to get around just fine with it. If my kids can figure it out then anyone can.

My boy was using Ubuntu just fine when he was 2 years old. But it wasn't because he cared what he was using; it was because I had an interest in Linux, it was my computer, and I installed the OS and set it up.

I just don't see the point in taking someone who just wants to browse the web and check email, installing a new OS for them, setting up that said OS for them, and being their personal tech support when they have what they need already working on their computer. Then doing that for as many other people like that as I can, becoming a lot of technically inept people's unpaid tech support, just because people have the notion that everyone should be using Linux.

You don't have to try to get everyone to use Linux. Just help the people who have a true interest in technology, who have the ability to figure things out on their own.

And just because someone is inept with computer skills doesn't mean they are inept. There are computer illiterate doctors and other professionals who are much more intelligent than some people who can set up and maintain a Linux system without problems. People are gifted in different ways.

quinnten83
January 17th, 2009, 02:27 PM
I like this article here about the Evolution of a Linux User (http://people.redhat.com/blizzard/evolution.txt).

It's funny because most of it is true.


.
That was hilarious.

Giant Speck
January 17th, 2009, 02:47 PM
I'm better than all of you.

Now, that may be hard for some of you to swallow, but if you give it enough time, you will see it is the truth and will come to accept it. Or die from a brain explosion. I will still accept that as a admission of defeat. :P

Thirtysixway
January 17th, 2009, 05:15 PM
Most of my friends have no clue what Ubuntu is and they don't care what it is. If they ask about it, I'll tell them the advantages to it. But I don't feel like I'm an elitist for having Ubuntu.

mamamia88
January 17th, 2009, 05:20 PM
im not elitist i discovered ubuntu by accident when considering installing linux on my ps3 and liked it so put it on my laptop

lykwydchykyn
January 17th, 2009, 06:01 PM
You know, a lot of these "elitist" accusations are self-fulfilling. I don't know how many times I've seen someone come on to a Linux forum and start ranting about how Linux sucks, Windows/OSX is so much better, I couldn't get my video car working, blah blah blah. And they always end with "I'll probably get flamed for saying this, but I don't care".

Then they get about 15 responses along the lines of "That's cool, use what works for you." or "Hey we might be able to help you with that video card problem if you tell us (whatever)", or "Yeah I had the same problem, but maybe you should try (some distro) instead, because it seems to be better at that.".

Then ONE PERSON says something rude, or takes them to task on a few of their points, and they go off "See, I TOLD you I'd get flamed! You Linux guys are just elitist jerks, no wonder nobody uses this crap! Wah Wah wah!!!"

What about the other 15 people who offered to help, or don't care that you don't want to use it?

I am suspect of anyone's claims of an "elitist community". I've been using Linux since 2003, and while I've met a few jerks and immature morons, I've met far more helpful, intelligent people who are excited to help you learn and get working.

SomeGuyDude
January 17th, 2009, 06:09 PM
I just don't see the point in taking someone who just wants to browse the web and check email, installing a new OS for them, setting up that said OS for them, and being their personal tech support when they have what they need already working on their computer. Then doing that for as many other people like that as I can, becoming a lot of technically inept people's unpaid tech support, just because people have the notion that everyone should be using Linux.

You say that like Windows is sooooo seamless for casual users. When was the last time you heard about a Linux user looking at porn and his computer getting demolished by fifty viruses?

I really think once people acclimate to the OS it's a LOT easier and more hassle-free than Windows, and I say this because I'm the family "computer guy" and I've had days where I'm stuck spending a few hours fiddling with their machine because despite doing nothing but checking email and surfing the web they've managed to get sixty things broken and a hundred viruses.

Then I end up with everyone's machine having CCleaner, Avast! Antivirus, and some antispyware software so every time they have a problem I can run all of it and waste everyone's time.

Windows machines require a LOT of upkeep. Chances are if you run Linux and never update or install anything beyond the default, using it solely for word processing, music, surfing, and communication, after a year or so it'll be running just about the same as it did initially. The same cannot be said of Windows.

This isn't a knock on the OS, just saying Windows requires a lot more maintenance than Linux, in my mind.

Thirtysixway
January 17th, 2009, 06:28 PM
One of my teachers was telling us about how his computer was slowing down and aparently he had viruses and two of the programs he installed were pretty much fighting each other so he took a computer security class up at some community college.

Just thought it was funny.

NewJack
January 17th, 2009, 09:48 PM
then they get about 15 responses along the lines of "that's cool, use what works for you." or "hey we might be able to help you with that video card problem if you tell us (whatever)", or "yeah i had the same problem, but maybe you should try (some distro) instead, because it seems to be better at that.".

Then one person says something rude, or takes them to task on a few of their points, and they go off "see, i told you i'd get flamed! You linux guys are just elitist jerks, no wonder nobody uses this crap! Wah wah wah!!!"

what about the other 15 people who offered to help, or don't care that you don't want to use it?

I am suspect of anyone's claims of an "elitist community". I've been using linux since 2003, and while i've met a few jerks and immature morons, i've met far more helpful, intelligent people who are excited to help you learn and get working.

qft

tsali
January 17th, 2009, 10:04 PM
I've encountered a lot of linux snobbishness since I first started using it back in 1999.

It runs about 50/50

The one I really really hate the most?

RTFM.

"man" is about as USELESS as nipples on a boar hog unless you ALREADY know what you're doing.

I've also had people tell me "to do my own homework" like I was some kind of grasshopper in their temple.

I've had a lot of very good help as well, both here and in Mepis forums.

The bottom line is to understand that new users encountering problems are often completely frustrated and often panicked that they may have ruined an expensive piece of machinery.

No, they often don't understand what's happening. Sometimes if you can help them through their immediate panic, they'll hang around long enough to learn more.

If you immediately dish back crap, I think they'll find themselves headed to Wal-buy to get a copy of Windows...convinced that Ubuntu is just garbage.

In the case of the girl who bought the Dell, she just wanted a computer that worked. She went to the news people because both Dell and Verizon had screwed her and that was the only way she knew to get help.

Ubuntu isn't for everybody. It certainly wasn't for her. This also true for both Windows and MacOS X.

Ubuntu got bad rap because of poor behavior by Dell and Verizon.

cardinals_fan
January 17th, 2009, 11:28 PM
"man" is about as USELESS as nipples on a boar hog unless you ALREADY know what you're doing.

I totally disagree. I learned almost everything I know about Linux from reading the man pages back when I knew nothing.

lykwydchykyn
January 17th, 2009, 11:30 PM
I've had a lot of very good help as well, both here and in Mepis forums.


Seeing as those have been the main two forums I've haunted over the years, maybe that's why I don't see so much elitism.

tsali
January 17th, 2009, 11:52 PM
I totally disagree. I learned almost everything I know about Linux from reading the man pages back when I knew nothing.

The issue I have with man pages is that they seem to INTENTIONALLY lack examples of application and are written in geek-ese.

The vast majority of what I've learned has been in forums and tutorials. What usually happens is some kind soul in an Ubuntu forum will post an example, then I go back to the man page and wonder why the heck they didn't just say it as simply!

man pages assume that you understand the concept of switches and that you know how to format arguments correctly.

Take a look at "man find"

A user goes there because they want to find all their mp3 files. And let's suppose they have a file name with two words in it. Look how much crap you have to wade through to get it.

And lastly...just how the heck do you get out of this "man" thing once your in it? :confused:
(yes I know the answer...)

spectre_hfx
January 17th, 2009, 11:59 PM
.

cardinals_fan
January 18th, 2009, 12:09 AM
The issue I have with man pages is that they seem to INTENTIONALLY lack examples of application and are written in geek-ese.

The vast majority of what I've learned has been in forums and tutorials. What usually happens is some kind soul in an Ubuntu forum will post an example, then I go back to the man page and wonder why the heck they didn't just say it as simply!

man pages assume that you understand the concept of switches and that you know how to format arguments correctly.

Take a look at "man find"

A user goes there because they want to find all their mp3 files. And let's suppose they have a file name with two words in it. Look how much crap you have to wade through to get it.

And lastly...just how the heck do you get out of this "man" thing once your in it? :confused:
(yes I know the answer...)
I agree that man pages aren't very useful for someone who just wants to solve their problem. That's why I recommend theme whenever someone asks why something works. They are an excellent educational resource.

tsali
January 18th, 2009, 12:18 AM
How can freedom be elitist?

No that's a whole 'nuther can o worms...

Depends on whose definition of "freedom" you are applying.

kspncr
January 18th, 2009, 12:27 AM
No, I'm not an elitist. I don't give a rat's behind if you use Windows, Mac OS, or Linux. Whatever. They're all computers.

Ancalagon82
January 18th, 2009, 11:01 AM
No, I'm not an elitist. I don't give a rat's behind if you use Windows, Mac OS, or Linux. Whatever. They're all computers.

A Husky fan can't afford to be elitist. :p

CLomax
January 18th, 2009, 12:09 PM
I'd need an objective view on my attitude as I don't know whether I'm elitist or not. I don't think I am but is a subjective view good enough?

Linux has helped me immensely learning about computers and such and I feel it is perfect for me. Also, when a friend complains about their computer playing up, I can't help but suggest Ubuntu. It's almost an impulse.

I haven't been labeled an elitist or any other connotation pertaining to it but when I suggest it and they refuse I then feel as if I have pushed it too far and start questioning my attitude for the next few days. Yes, I'm sensitive. :P

It really depends on what 'elitism' is. Is it an actual vast knowledge of a particular system as well as the attitude or is it an attitude similar to the Dunning-Kruger effect?

Cope57
January 18th, 2009, 01:28 PM
.Yes, I would like to have fries with that, thank you. ;)
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forrestcupp
January 18th, 2009, 01:56 PM
You say that like Windows is sooooo seamless for casual users. When was the last time you heard about a Linux user looking at porn and his computer getting demolished by fifty viruses?

I really think once people acclimate to the OS it's a LOT easier and more hassle-free than Windows, and I say this because I'm the family "computer guy" and I've had days where I'm stuck spending a few hours fiddling with their machine because despite doing nothing but checking email and surfing the web they've managed to get sixty things broken and a hundred viruses.

Then I end up with everyone's machine having CCleaner, Avast! Antivirus, and some antispyware software so every time they have a problem I can run all of it and waste everyone's time.

Windows machines require a LOT of upkeep. Chances are if you run Linux and never update or install anything beyond the default, using it solely for word processing, music, surfing, and communication, after a year or so it'll be running just about the same as it did initially. The same cannot be said of Windows.

This isn't a knock on the OS, just saying Windows requires a lot more maintenance than Linux, in my mind.
I've done the part you wrote that I made bold print in Windows for a long period of time and it ended up the same as it did initially. It's all about paying attention to what you do. If you visit sites with bad reputations and you don't have an antivirus, you deserve to get viruses. If you're only doing what you said works for Linux, it will work in Windows, too.

I ran a Windows machine without an anti virus for a long time and never had any problems. Using Firefox instead of IE helps, too.

The fact is that when I was an ignorant Linux beginner, I had my Linux system trashed way more times than I ever trashed a Windows system. That's how you learn, but some people just don't care to learn.

steveneddy
January 18th, 2009, 05:19 PM
I've done the part you wrote that I made bold print in Windows for a long period of time and it ended up the same as it did initially. It's all about paying attention to what you do. If you visit sites with bad reputations and you don't have an antivirus, you deserve to get viruses. If you're only doing what you said works for Linux, it will work in Windows, too.

I ran a Windows machine without an anti virus for a long time and never had any problems. Using Firefox instead of IE helps, too.

The fact is that when I was an ignorant Linux beginner, I had my Linux system trashed way more times than I ever trashed a Windows system. That's how you learn, but some people just don't care to learn.

I have found that no matter how careful I try and be with Windows on the internet, that Windows will get a virus or two.

At work I have to use Windows and since starting to use FF, I have a lot less problems but still manage to catch one little thing a month or so.

kspncr
January 19th, 2009, 09:25 AM
A Husky fan can't afford to be elitist. :p

That was a cheap shot...

mkendall
January 19th, 2009, 10:06 AM
That was a cheap shot...

What do expect in this economy?

tsali
January 19th, 2009, 12:06 PM
Here's an example of the RIGHT way to help a very new user:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1035482

Notice how fundamental the user's issue was, yet the responders continued to support him?

Notice that the OP left upbeat and excited because he was successful?

This is anti-elitism in action...

handy
January 19th, 2009, 01:39 PM
The people who want to just keep it simple aren't good candidates for Linux. They already have what they need, and they're not technical enough to give a darn about the morality of free software.

I agree, they are better candidates for a Mac than Linux, if they want to get away from the virus problem at least.

nothingspecial
January 19th, 2009, 02:02 PM
Here's an example of the RIGHT way to help a very new user:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1035482

Notice how fundamental the user's issue was, yet the responders continued to support him?

Notice that the OP left upbeat and excited because he was successful?

This is anti-elitism in action...

I`d go further than that, especially on the Absolute Beginners Forum.

The first reply, whilst from an eminent helper of beginners, just contained a box full of gobbldygook. I`ve seen too many replies like this where the invariable answer is "what does that mean". Actually you could call that reply elitist.
Sometimes it`s difficult to remember when you first started using linux, and how you wouldn`t know things you take for granted today.
Thankfully that user understood what to do but many would not. Where does it say open a terminal or how to accomplish that.

I think it`s important to consider anyone who posts in that forum as a complete novice unless they state otherwise.

I came here as a complete novice, as in never used a computer (must try windows one day).

That reply would have meant nothing to me.

That being said it worked which is great and why this forum is here but


Well guys, it works fine now, both wired and wireless! I must admit that I did not fully understand what was going on at all times, but the step by step instructions you provided did the trick! THANK YOU! Well guys, it works fine now, both wired and wireless! I must admit that I did not fully understand what was going on at all times, but the step by step instructions you provided did the trick! THANK YOU!

doesn`t really show a greater understanding of how to use linux.

At least she can use her printer I suppose.

Fenris_rising
January 19th, 2009, 02:07 PM
That last post is encouraging :) I have been on the wrong end of an elite post myself. I had just started with Ubuntu 8.04. With a bit of research and a few questions here and there when I was desperate I had it installed and tweaked to my liking. Then as I had a second HD I wanted to try another Linux as well. I tried Debian...........I got stuck as the 'syntax' seemed to be different so I toddled off to the Debian forum, introduced myself, mentioned I was using Ubuntu, said I was still a bit flaky with terminal. Well the first 3 respondents basically jeered at my using ubuntu and presumed my not being fit to run Debian. Well I decided If that was the best I was going to get I wouldn't bother. I have stuck with Ubuntu but played with a lot of other distro's which have to date I have been able to work with fully. Lesson here....patience with the newbie, don't presume he/she is thick and just remember if you think Linux in general is the best thing since sliced bread act as an ambassador and guide to those who need help. There will be those who try your patience but the rewards of a successful turnaround can only benefit the community as a whole as will the positive posts viewed by those who follow.......I might try Debian again one day but I prefer the overall company of the Ubuntu forum who have never berated me for my early ignorance of my chosen OS.

regards

Fenris

handy
January 19th, 2009, 02:24 PM
I found the Sidux forum to be quite elitist back in its early days.

Hopefully it has grown past that attitude.

I have noticed certain elements of elitism in all of the forums of the distro's & BSD's I've used. It seems to unfortunately be a part of human nature, stronger in some people at some times than others.

Pride & elitism are best replaced with appreciation & gratitude I think.

The Ubuntu forums has a good open community, many of us here don't even use Ubuntu these days, but contribute to the community one way or another because we like it & choose to feed it, & perhaps feel some gratitude & appreciation for what it has done & is doing.

SomeGuyDude
January 19th, 2009, 02:39 PM
I have found that no matter how careful I try and be with Windows on the internet, that Windows will get a virus or two.

At work I have to use Windows and since starting to use FF, I have a lot less problems but still manage to catch one little thing a month or so.

Not to mention the defrag issue.

My stepfather inherited my grandfather's Compaq laptop about a year ago. He never really installed anything, it was just a surfing and email machine. I think all he put on it was antivirus and CCleaner (which I put on). By a month ago, the thing was dragging so badly it was unusable.

Windows machines require upkeep. You gotta be on top of your defragging, the registry, extra careful about spyware which can DEFINITELY show up without doing anything clearly irresponsible.

forrestcupp
January 19th, 2009, 03:29 PM
I think Linux has a much different form of elitism than just being rude to people who need help. On these forums, most people intend to be helpful and friendly to people who need help using Ubuntu/Linux. Sometimes the experienced forget that new people may not even know how to open a terminal. Not only do we forget that, but it also becomes repetitive writing "Go to Applications=>Accessories=>Terminal" a thousand times before we can actually tell them what to do. But I believe that it is most people's intent to be friendly and helpful, even though we are sometimes forgetful of the simple, basic steps.

No, that is not where the elitism lies. It roars its ugly head when someone mentions the fact that they use Windows or Microsoft products. It shows its ugliness when people either boldly or ignorantly say that they need to use some sort of non-Free software. These are the areas where Linux users need to calm down a little and stop making people feel inferior because they may not have the same software standards.

Noblacktie
January 19th, 2009, 03:47 PM
You get this elitism mostly with fans of distros that are considered "advanced" or "cutting edge". It's amusing as it's no different from the kiddie l337 mentality.

The Ubuntu community is awesome in that there is more egalitarianism here. And I think people who don't have ego hang-ups about using a 'n00b' distro are, in a word, cool ;)

SomeGuyDude
January 19th, 2009, 04:28 PM
No, that is not where the elitism lies. It roars its ugly head when someone mentions the fact that they use Windows or Microsoft products. It shows its ugliness when people either boldly or ignorantly say that they need to use some sort of non-Free software. These are the areas where Linux users need to calm down a little and stop making people feel inferior because they may not have the same software standards.

See, I disagree here. If one deeply and passionately believes thaet Linux is a better system to use, and wants to promote it ceaselessly in order to benefit everyon, how is it elitist to voice this?

I don't think there are many people who promote Linux just to feel superior. It's not like they're out there saying "I won't help you because I use Linux", they're saying "dude, use Linux dammit it'll work better". That's not elitism, that's enthusiasm.

Sure some people can be jerks about it when things don't go their way, but it's not "elitism". Elitism by definition is a desire to divide people and segregate them into the "superior" and the "inferior". Someone who sees their method or whatever to be "superior" and tries to get everyone to join them isn't elitist, now are they?

saulgoode
January 19th, 2009, 05:01 PM
Someone who sees their method or whatever to be "superior" and tries to get everyone to join them isn't elitist, now are they?
If they are then, by definition, anti-elitists are they themselves elitists. ;)

SomeGuyDude
January 19th, 2009, 05:24 PM
If they are then, by definition, anti-elitists are they themselves elitists. ;)

http://i43.tinypic.com/2w6xctt.jpg

lykwydchykyn
January 19th, 2009, 08:53 PM
Seems to me everybody defines elitism thier own way. And it usually amounts to "interacting with new/non linux users some way other than the way I do". Which makes this discussion mostly meaningless.

SomeGuyDude
January 19th, 2009, 09:27 PM
Seems to me everybody defines elitism thier own way. And it usually amounts to "interacting with new/non linux users some way other than the way I do". Which makes this discussion mostly meaningless.

I just ignore them entirely. Makes things a lot easier. :guitar: