Windows 7 is enough to kill Linux on the desktop? [Archive]

Bölvaður

January 14th, 2009, 04:38 PM

Linux could die if Windows would open source their stuff and lower the license price or ease up on the user agreement so you will be able to install it as many times as you wish and on all your computers, just as an example.

If they continue what they are doing they can only lose customers, the world isn't what it was 10-20 years ago and bit by bit people are slowly moving towards expecting things not to cost anything and be free to do what ever they want with it.
Wait and see, Linux will definitely die. But Windy will not be when it happens and it will die by another open source project, not a proprietary one.

Dragonbite

January 14th, 2009, 04:45 PM

Wait and see, Linux will definitely die. But Windy will not be when it happens and it will die by another open source project, not a proprietary one.

I'd go one step further and say Windows will not be the one to do it (and don't immediately jump on Apple either). Either some mutated hybrid or something completely new or in its infancy right now (Android? Palm redux? Unix? something alien?)

Skripka

January 14th, 2009, 04:47 PM

Hyperbole, nothing more.

Poorly written, and a stupid premise to start with. At least the author is consistent.

RichardLinx

January 14th, 2009, 04:55 PM

I'd go one step further and say Windows will not be the one to do it (and don't immediately jump on Apple either). Either some mutated hybrid or something completely new or in its infancy right now (Android? Palm redux? Unix? something alien?)

I like the way you think :)

Swagman

January 14th, 2009, 04:58 PM

NubiruO/s ?

(Planet) X-O/s ?

vishzilla

January 14th, 2009, 05:02 PM

meho_r

January 14th, 2009, 05:06 PM

Don't forget that there are two equal possibilities:

1. Win 7 will be better than Vista (and XP)
2. Win 7 will be same or worse than Vista.

In first case, I don't think there will be any significant changes regarding Linux. Those who tried Linux once, they won't go away. So, no "killing" definitely.

But, the second case can be interesting. If MS miss again, well, hmmmm... :D

RichardLinx

January 14th, 2009, 05:13 PM

No I don't think so.. Linux is here to stay. There are abundunt choices in Linux which can't be replicated on the Windows platform like the WM/DE and lot of customizations. I have no intention to move to Windows at all.

Actually you can run KDE with windows. :)

KDE 4 is based on Qt 4 which is also released under the GPL for Windows and Mac OS X. Therefore KDE 4 applications can be compiled and run natively on these operating systems as well.

Polygon

January 14th, 2009, 05:17 PM

im using windows 7 right now. sorry to say but it is much better then vista and xp usage wise. It still uses a lot of ram though for almost nothing running

it wont kill linux however.

vishzilla

January 14th, 2009, 05:23 PM

Actually you can run KDE with windows. :)

Ya I know, you won't find pro-windows users adopting it much. And it will take Windows users to leap into Linux to know about KDE.

gn2

January 14th, 2009, 05:25 PM

GNU/Linux is founded on an idea.

You can't kill ideas.

kelvin spratt

January 14th, 2009, 05:26 PM

I'm testing windows 7 it is a lot better than vista, it still uses the same bad code it still needs rebooting every couple of hrs, still collects crap by the bucket load, so its the same as before just a new coat. I certainly would not swap Linux for it.

Nano Geek

January 14th, 2009, 05:30 PM

I've poked around with Windows 7, and I'm fairly impressed with it.
But I don't think it has any chance killing Linux. Most people who have come to Linux haven't done so simply because the past Windows OS's haven't been very good, it's because they want something that Windows can't offer at all.

Sealbhach

January 14th, 2009, 05:37 PM

With Linux, I feel like I'm in control.

With Windows or any other proprietary software I've got to deal with license keys, expiry dates etc. If there's something in Linux I would like to tweak there's usually someone who knows how to do it because the code is there for all to see - with closed source you're stuck with what you got and your computer is always telling you that you've performed an "illegal operation" and gnerally tells you what you can and can't do. Also DRM.

Dixi.

.

Archmage

January 14th, 2009, 05:39 PM

Windows 7 = Vista with a few GUI changes.

MikeTheC

January 14th, 2009, 05:41 PM

sydbat

January 14th, 2009, 05:46 PM

sadly, true journalism is a dying art. In the tech industry, as in practically every other field of endeavor, so-called discussion and reporting is little more than a veiled attempt at corporate agenda-advancing propaganda-spreading, and is thinly veiled at that.

The era of being able to rely on the integrity of trade journals and the mainstream media is so far passed as to have nearly faded from conscious recollection.+1

Giant Speck

January 14th, 2009, 05:52 PM

I've been trying out Windows 7 for about three days, and I have to say, I love it.

However, anything Microsoft can come up with will not be successful at stifling or killing the ongoing development of Linux. There is too much time and money invested in Linux for people to just suddenly drop it for the technological status quo.

That said, each operating system will always hold advantages over each other. There are things about Windows 7 that are better than Linux distros, and there are things about Linux distros that are better than Windows 7.

Saying that Windows 7 is going to kill Linux or that any Linux distro is going to kill Windows is absurd. Simply absurd. It's absurd because it overgeneralizes the thoughts and feelings of large groups of users and doesn't consider that the choice of using a certain operating system rests with the user itself.

Dragonbite

January 14th, 2009, 05:55 PM

Saying that Windows 7 is going to kill Linux or that any Linux distro is going to kill Windows is absurd. Simply absurd. It's absurd because it overgeneralizes the thoughts and feelings of large groups of users and doesn't consider that the choice of using a certain operating system rests with the user itself.

Not to mention, it doesn't take into account the reaction Linux will have to Windows 7 when released nor that the consumer market is ever-changing, between the economic climate and becoming more jaded after Vista.

This is better than a soap opera! :popcorn:

mayagrafix

January 14th, 2009, 06:03 PM

I am perfectly happy with Ubuntu/Linux. It works really well and the development teamwork is great.

I have one BIG problem though. My principal work application, Autodesk Autocad, is owned by M$. Thus I am stuck with !@#$^&* Windows. If only they still supported Unix and came out with a Linux version! I doubt that will ever happen.

Another minor problem is that all the good games come in Windows flavor, granted, consoles are the way to go, so this a almost obsolete gripe.

Meanwhile its dual boot for me. :(

cardinals_fan

January 14th, 2009, 06:05 PM

*facepalm*

Anyone who talks about one OS "killing" another is a moron. It is exceedingly unlikely that one system can appeal to every single user of another system. This is no exception.

derekr44

January 14th, 2009, 06:05 PM

im using windows 7 right now. sorry to say but it is much better then vista and xp usage wise. It still uses a lot of ram though for almost nothing running

it wont kill linux however.

Agreed. I'm running it in VM just to give it a try. It runs well under 512MB RAM, but still likes to use a lot of RAM while idle. It will fare much better than Vista and could very well replace XP, but it won't kill Linux.

RichardLinx

January 14th, 2009, 06:14 PM

*facepalm*

Anyone who talks about one OS "killing" another is a moron. It is exceedingly unlikely that one system can appeal to every single user of another system. This is no exception.

If Ubuntu can last to 100.10, It will become the exception.;)

joshh88

January 14th, 2009, 06:24 PM

Sadly, true journalism is a dying art. In the tech industry, as in practically every other field of endeavor, so-called discussion and reporting is little more than a veiled attempt at corporate agenda-advancing propaganda-spreading, and is thinly veiled at that.

The era of being able to rely on the integrity of trade journals and the mainstream media is so far passed as to have nearly faded from conscious recollection.

I can agree with you to an extent. It seems as if most journalists are a little hesitant to say something against most corporations. Remember where the source for this article came from, theinquirer.com Everything I read from them I pretty much assume to be false. You have to, The last cover of theirs I saw had a monster lizard on it and said it was photographed eating someone. Definantly didn't happen.

jrusso2

January 14th, 2009, 06:28 PM

Martje_001

January 14th, 2009, 06:33 PM

I'm downloading it now (still 2.5 hours to go) and I can't wait to test it. Really. I've heard so much good things about it.

Still.. I don't think I will ever switch to Windows again, just because I love the "freedom" Linux gives me.

cardinals_fan

January 14th, 2009, 06:35 PM

All you have to do is see all the I love Windows 7 posts in these forums and it has to make you wonder what's going on.

1. Windows 7 is just Vista with less applications and new gui

2. Hardware that never worked on Vista will not work on Windows 7

3. It will cost as much as Vista

4. Why is there so many posts on Linux Forums a year before release.
1. And many major bugs fixed. Not to mention that those "less applications" mean less bloat.

2. True, but it will run on my main machine better than Vista would.

3. I doubt whether many forum users will shell out the cash for Windows 7 once it's released. They'll beta test and them maybe buy it preinstalled on their next machine.

4. Because most people on Linux-related forums are very interested in software, and this is a significant public beta of a very prominent OS.

BGFG

January 14th, 2009, 06:47 PM

Sadly, true journalism is a dying art. In the tech industry, as in practically every other field of endeavor, so-called discussion and reporting is little more than a veiled attempt at corporate agenda-advancing propaganda-spreading, and is thinly veiled at that.

The era of being able to rely on the integrity of trade journals and the mainstream media is so far passed as to have nearly faded from conscious recollection.

Exactly. Without windows, tech magazines would not exist. Good or bad, win7 news is going to rule the internet because at the end of the day, Microsoft drives a large part of the world economy and all these so called tech analysts have bills to pay. Money can't be made by giving free software good reviews.

As for all of this talk of looks. The majority of linux users use it for speed, stability and Security. I don't see how 'shiney' outweighs this. Using Win7 = Firewall + Antivirus + Antimalware + Constant updates + always under threat. i don't see myself rushing back to that because the new windows taskbar is see through.

geoken

January 14th, 2009, 06:54 PM

I can agree with you to an extent. It seems as if most journalists are a little hesitant to say something against most corporations. Remember where the source for this article came from, theinquirer.com Everything I read from them I pretty much assume to be false. You have to, The last cover of theirs I saw had a monster lizard on it and said it was photographed eating someone. Definantly didn't happen.

You're getting confused between The Inquirer (respected source of tech news) and The National Enquirer (ridiculous tabloid magazine typically found beside the register in your supermarket).

Simian Man

January 14th, 2009, 06:54 PM

I used to avoid KDE because it looked like Windows. Now I can avoid Windows because it looks like KDE. I call that progress :).

geoken

January 14th, 2009, 06:56 PM

Agreed. I'm running it in VM just to give it a try. It runs well under 512MB RAM, but still likes to use a lot of RAM while idle. It will fare much better than Vista and could very well replace XP, but it won't kill Linux.

Why are people so hung up on idle RAM usage? You say it runs fine meaning it's very adept at releasing RAM the instant it's needed so why does it matter what it's doing while idle?

geoken

January 14th, 2009, 06:58 PM

I used to avoid KDE because it looked like Windows. Now I can avoid Windows because it looks like KDE. I call that progress :).

So you thought KDE looked like Windows, then at some point arbitrarily decided that it was actually the other way around?

Skripka

January 14th, 2009, 06:58 PM

Why are people so hung up on idle RAM usage? You say it runs fine meaning it's very adept at releasing RAM the instant it's needed so why does it matter what it's doing while idle?

Part of it might be that it lessens battery life on laptops.

derekr44

January 14th, 2009, 06:59 PM

Why are people so hung up on idle RAM usage? You say it runs fine meaning it's very adept at releasing RAM the instant it's needed so why does it matter what it's doing while idle?

Because it makes me wonder what is running in the background. That's like having a car idle at 5000RPM...

Polygon

January 14th, 2009, 07:00 PM

All you have to do is see all the I love Windows 7 posts in these forums and it has to make you wonder what's going on.

1. Windows 7 is just Vista with less applications and new gui

2. Hardware that never worked on Vista will not work on Windows 7

3. It will cost as much as Vista

4. Why is there so many posts on Linux Forums a year before release.

ive heard its cheaper to buy an upgrade

the hardware detection IS better. i did not have to install any drivers for wireless, video or motherboard. all of those worked out of the box

yes its what vista SHOULD of been. but its still good.

and there are a bunch of small things they changed. you really dont realize it unless you use it however. But the overall effect is a good one, so kudos to microsoft for not being a failure.

cardinals_fan

January 14th, 2009, 07:00 PM

Why are people so hung up on idle RAM usage? You say it runs fine meaning it's very adept at releasing RAM the instant it's needed so why does it matter what it's doing while idle?
...because I like to know exactly what is running at all times, and a bunch of used RAM makes me anxious.

smoker

January 14th, 2009, 07:01 PM

hmm, windows 7 in beta, surely microsoft will get it right this time! i know many who cried themselves to sleep after the disappointment and expense of vista. yet, i'm sure most won't remember the nightmares and will be saving up the pennies for the latest. hope they get their monies worth this time!

no matter how good windows 7 is though, it won't kill linux :-)

geoken

January 14th, 2009, 07:06 PM

Part of it might be that it lessens battery life on laptops.

People are reporting significantly higher battery life with 7.

joshh88

January 14th, 2009, 07:06 PM

Sorry I didn't know there was another one called Inquirer lol. I'm at work and the link was blocked due to "personal interest". Usually tech articles aren't blocked so I figured it was what I thought. My bad I take back what I said :)

Why would a system need that much ram to idle is the question. What could it possibly be doing just sitting there. Because we know windows doesn't simply organize its information on its own so using that much ram idle is a little confounding for me. Yes it may release it when it's needed, but why is it using it in the first place.

geoken

January 14th, 2009, 07:12 PM

Because it makes me wonder what is running in the background. That's like having a car idle at 5000RPM...

You can check the maps to see which apps are being loaded into memory.

geoken

January 14th, 2009, 07:15 PM

Why would a system need that much ram to idle is the question. What could it possibly be doing just sitting there. Because we know windows doesn't simply organize its information on its own so using that much ram idle is a little confounding for me. Yes it may release it when it's needed, but why is it using it in the first place.

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Why-Does-Windows-Vista-Consume-All-My-RAM-49975.shtml

Again, you can go into the prefetch folder and see what apps/files are being pre-loaded into memory.

derekr44

January 14th, 2009, 07:15 PM

Just to pour gas on the idle RAM fire, here's a shot of the Task Manager. This is a clean install, no additional programs and nothing else running other than Windows itself.

It's running as a virtual machine with 512MB RAM, 64MB graphics and a 20GB drive, Intel Core 2 Duo @ 2.4GHz.

Task Manager (http://www.canofrags.com/images/win7_1.png)
Resource Monitor (http://www.canofrags.com/images/win7_2.png)

Dragonbite

January 14th, 2009, 07:39 PM

All of these RAM comparisons are on freshly-installed versions. Is there a chance that extra ram is being used as it continues to configure itself and to "learn" the user's preferences/uses?

derekr44

January 14th, 2009, 07:45 PM

All of these RAM comparisons are on freshly-installed versions. Is there a chance that extra ram is being used as it continues to configure itself and to "learn" the user's preferences/uses?

That's a good question. I can see it running the indexing process after it sits for a few minutes, but I wouldn't imagine it being too intelligent to "auto-personalize." The screenshots I took were taken after rebooting after an update.

M!SF!TS

January 14th, 2009, 07:55 PM

wow the task manager and resource monitor are logging pretty high for a system with NOTHING on it but windows, well if microsoft keeps making the same mistakes... i see alot more people switching to linux... but if microsoft recovers from what has been poor marketing and poor development then theirs no telling where microsoft will go...again, but the POST-GATES microsoft has not been fairing well as we all have seen... so who knows... but i think it is safe to speak for all of us here... in that who cares!!! let microsoft crash, i run linux...

does anyone wonder why microsoft produces resource DESTROYING OS's ? i got a theory... The more resources microsoft eats, Means the consumer needs to spend more money on Faster and Stronger computers... creating a cycle (like a food chain if you like) a economic cycle funding mass amounts of money towards creating better more innovative technologies on computer hardware an IT to keep driving the cycle forward, by making systems obsolete within a 6 month to 1 year time frame the average joe will buy a new computer about every 2 or 3 years...

Sour but Sweet theory i got, on one hand the consumer pays an absurd ammount of cash to keep the economic payrole to make new technologies. but in return we get some sick new technologies...

geoken

January 14th, 2009, 08:14 PM

I'm scared to see what would happen if I posted a pic of my task manager.

derekr44

January 14th, 2009, 08:23 PM

I'm scared to see what would happen if I posted a pic of my task manager.

Same. My page file usage is usually running near 1.6GB at work. Lots of heavy programs running.

Giant Speck

January 14th, 2009, 08:29 PM

I'm not concerned with RAM usage unless my computer is actually locking up, which it hasn't done once since I installed Windows 7.

Delever

January 14th, 2009, 10:59 PM

All you have to do is see all the I love Windows 7 posts in these forums and it has to make you wonder what's going on.

1. Windows 7 is just Vista with less applications and new gui

2. Hardware that never worked on Vista will not work on Windows 7

3. It will cost as much as Vista

4. Why is there so many posts on Linux Forums a year before release.

You have also to take into account that:

5. Vista was one of the reasons for migrating to Ubuntu for many users.

6. Many Ubuntu users still use Windows.

7. Many Ubuntu users used Windows.

8. Many are wondering that Windows being pretty stable a year before release might be great when released.

I think if Vista 7 is good OS, it will be win-win situation.

Windows users will have good OS.
It will be good nudge for developers to make more great stuff for Linux.

P.S. I still need to live with Vista 7 for a month.

fluxlizard

January 15th, 2009, 12:25 AM

the look could be replicated pretty easily in ubuntu
transparent task bar, desktop widgets- big deal...

geoken

January 15th, 2009, 12:45 AM

the look could be replicated pretty easily in ubuntu
transparent task bar, desktop widgets- big deal...

Yeah but none of that addresses the functionality.

dullard

January 15th, 2009, 12:54 AM

How many Linux users who switched from Vista will go back?

My guess is "not many".

And I'm including the dual-booting crowd such as myself in this wild estimation :-)

Whilst Ubuntu can be as much of a pain in the backside as Win95 (don't kid yourself otherwise, kids) it's what fun computing is made of, and anybody who sticks with linux for more than a few weeks rather than doing a fresh windows install is going to be hooked for life!

No worries.

Why do these threads even exist?

init1

January 15th, 2009, 01:16 AM

:roll:

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/review/392/1050392/windows-7-is-enough-to-kill-linux-on-the-desktop
They just called it that so that people would read the article.

druellan

January 15th, 2009, 01:31 AM

Giant Speck

January 15th, 2009, 03:10 AM

the look could be replicated pretty easily in ubuntu
transparent task bar, desktop widgets- big deal...

And that is one of the things I hate the most.

People are always like "Compiz can do that, easily!" or "that could always be replicated in Ubuntu."

But then it's either never done, or never done correctly.

Firestem4

January 15th, 2009, 03:34 AM

I'm a new convert to Kubuntu Linux. And I joyously say Linux is so much better than WIndows will ever be.

Windows 7 will not kill linux. The Linux userbase is growing on a daily basis. I started using Kubuntu 3 weeks ago!

To me, All the "new" OS is, is a Vista facelift. They did not build it from ground up. They didn't rewrite the code. And It is still going to suffer from the same problems that are afflicting Vista (and XP) right now.

- The growing issue of DRM, and IP. (Which is one of the Biggest reasons I decided to switch over to Linuux).
- Security problems. We all now how rediculously horrid Windows security is. Viruses, worms, trojans, hackers, poorly written code to boot. There are so many problems (and such poor support) that unless there is a radical redesign of Windows business model. Nothing is going to change soon.

The biggest reason we are even seeing a Windows 7 (Especially in such a short time after Vista was released) Its Vista SP2. But to save face and reputation. Windows decided to repackage and rename it with a few new features and some improved options. I am not going to waste any money on 7 when it comes out. I'm going to use XP (my gaming comp) till the day its a dinosaur and cant play anymore new games.

I highly doubt Microsoft is expecting to see any good profitable returns on Windows 7. They are trying to regain their reputation within the tech community after the debacle Vista turned out to be.

i'll end this rant here. But As far as I'm concerned, or anyone else should be. Linux is not going to die anytime soon. The day Linux dies will be when Windows goes bankrupt, Macintosh goes 3rd party, and I get to be ruler of the world! =P

cardinals_fan

January 15th, 2009, 03:39 AM

- Security problems. We all now how rediculously horrid Windows security is. Viruses, worms, trojans, hackers, poorly written code to boot. There are so many problems (and such poor support) that unless there is a radical redesign of Windows business model. Nothing is going to change soon.

I've never had a security problem on Windows...

iamgillespie

January 15th, 2009, 03:59 AM

Not to mention, it doesn't take into account the reaction Linux will have to Windows 7 when released nor that the consumer market is ever-changing, between the economic climate and becoming more jaded after Vista.

This is better than a soap opera! :popcorn:

This is a great point. What any bloated windows OS can do with 2 gig or ram. A Linux distro could easily do with half because its just so efficient.

days_of_ruin

January 15th, 2009, 04:00 AM

I've never had a security problem on Windows...

And I've never flown an airplane.

mamamia88

January 15th, 2009, 04:11 AM

after trying the beta ill admit it's better than vista but i'm not going back only reason i'll use windows now is to play games

cardinals_fan

January 15th, 2009, 04:12 AM

And I've never flown an airplane.
Neither have I :D

jrusso2

January 15th, 2009, 04:12 AM

And I've never flown an airplane.

I have never seen one crash but I lived next to the worlds busiest airport and a Naval Air Station for 17 years.

tad1073

January 15th, 2009, 04:13 AM

I tried it yesterday but decided to uninstall it. I was not impressed.

Firestem4

January 15th, 2009, 04:17 AM

I've never had a security problem on Windows...

If you've ever had a virus or malware etc, thats a security vulnerability. Its a very broad statement.

Luckily i've never had SERIOUS virus problems. I'm an A+ computer tech, (so, granted i have a different definition of serious.) But all of the problems i have had, i've been able to fix.

cardinals_fan

January 15th, 2009, 04:34 AM

If you've ever had a virus or malware etc, thats a security vulnerability. Its a very broad statement.

Luckily i've never had SERIOUS virus problems. I'm an A+ computer tech, (so, granted i have a different definition of serious.) But all of the problems i have had, i've been able to fix.
I've never had any viruses or malware in six years. I use common sense and NoScript (ThreatFire if I feel paranoid, but it's never had anything to catch).

Firestem4

January 15th, 2009, 04:50 AM

I've never had any viruses or malware in six years. I use common sense and NoScript (ThreatFire if I feel paranoid, but it's never had anything to catch).

I use NoScript too but i find that hard to believe. I dont discredit but look at the facts. I mean, many people use linux because of the fact there are virtually no viruses.

Frak

January 15th, 2009, 04:55 AM

I use NoScript too but i find that hard to believe. I dont discredit but look at the facts. I mean, many people use linux because of the fact there are virtually no viruses.
Threatfire protects against Zero-Day exploits. A Windows system can be as safe or safer than a Linux system. It all depends on how it's configured. You wonder why many webservers run Windows?

Giant Speck

January 15th, 2009, 05:01 AM

Threatfire protects against Zero-Day exploits. A Windows system can be as safe or safer than a Linux system. It all depends on how it's configured. You wonder why many webservers run Windows?

*whispers from a distance* It also depends on the user behind the controls!

Frak

January 15th, 2009, 05:03 AM

*whispers from a distance* it also depends on the user behind the controls!
pebkac

Giant Speck

January 15th, 2009, 05:07 AM

pebkac

The greatest computer solution ever.

cardinals_fan

January 15th, 2009, 05:13 AM

*whispers from a distance* It also depends on the user behind the controls!
No way! ;)

Threatfire protects against Zero-Day exploits. A Windows system can be as safe or safer than a Linux system. It all depends on how it's configured. You wonder why many webservers run Windows?
I regard ThreatFire as a last resort. I haven't had to use it yet, but I'm glad it's there. SuRun is also a must-have.

I use NoScript too but i find that hard to believe. I dont discredit but look at the facts. I mean, many people use linux because of the fact there are virtually no viruses.
By that logic, Windows is the best OS for everyone because most people use it. "Many people" have a nasty habit of being misinformed. Windows is indeed very insecure by default. However, a limited user account + SuRun, Firefox + NoScript, and ThreatFire make my XP VM just as safe as my Slackware partition. Self-replicating viruses (you're welcome, Frak) are very rare because of scanning by ISPs, email providers, and routers. All other malware depends on the user to install. Intelligent computer use (the above steps + basic common sense) prevents infections better than anything else.

w7kmc

January 15th, 2009, 05:13 AM

If Windows 7 runs as well on my 667 MHZ Dell PC with 320 MB or ram better than UB 8.10 does, then maybe I will consider switching. Otherwise, forget it...

Firestem4

January 15th, 2009, 06:11 AM

By that logic, Windows is the best OS for everyone because most people use it. "Many people" have a nasty habit of being misinformed. Windows is indeed very insecure by default. anything else.

We both know just because everyone uses something, it doesn't mean its the best. look at the Internal Combustion Engine. (with 100 years of...uh-hrm..Innovation) Is it still the best? Hardly. Its just been around so long its all most people know.

You are completely right about many people being misinformed.

MikeTheC

January 15th, 2009, 07:30 AM

i used to avoid kde because it looked like windows. Now i can avoid windows because it looks like kde. I call that progress :).

+1

phrostbyte

January 15th, 2009, 07:30 AM

And that is one of the things I hate the most.

People are always like "Compiz can do that, easily!" or "that could always be replicated in Ubuntu."

But then it's either never done, or never done correctly.

Then fix it yourself. Or file bug reports or feature requirements. Believe it or not, free software developers can not read minds.

MikeTheC

January 15th, 2009, 07:33 AM

hmm, windows 7 in beta, surely microsoft will get it right this time!

And in other news, the sun will be exploding any day now...

MikeTheC

January 15th, 2009, 07:36 AM

Vista is on my dual-booted system for the benefit of compatibility when- and as-needed for my college. Likewise, Office 2007 is on it for that same reason.

The rest of the time, I'm in Ubuntu.

Oh, and btw, they sure still don't have a clue about how to make a good-looking user interface, I see.

iKonaK

January 15th, 2009, 07:43 AM

Twitch6000

January 15th, 2009, 07:52 AM

im using windows 7 right now. sorry to say but it is much better then vista and xp usage wise. It still uses a lot of ram though for almost nothing running

it wont kill linux however.

Yeah and that ram usage is why I dislike it... I finally got to try it yesterday and well I liked everything about it except the ram usage.

On a good note though Windows 7 is what vista should have been and will make up for the failure.

However.. will Linux Die? I think not,reason being it is open source,free,and well if it was going to die it would have.

Giant Speck

January 15th, 2009, 08:07 AM

Then fix it yourself. Or file bug reports or feature requirements. Believe it or not, free software developers can not read minds.

That wasn't my point. My point was too many people look at Windows 7's new features and say "Compiz could easily do that." Yet, it doesn't do that at all. If Compiz could easily replicate the new features of Windows 7, the features would either already be available or be in active development.

I never said I wanted those features in Compiz or Ubuntu. I'm just saying if you are willing to say that it could be easily programmed into Compiz, then prove it! Actually program it to prove it could easily be done in Compiz, or stop running your mouth.

SupaSonic

January 15th, 2009, 08:23 AM

Features - shmeatures, however good Windows 7 might be, I can't believe there will be that many people who will pay insane money to upgrade to a system which is only a slight vista revamp. A lot of people will still be using XP or whatever system they use.

I remember all the Vista hype, how it was supposed to be the best Windows ever. Well that was an epic fail wasn't it? It's Microsoft after all, they're bound to screw up one way or the other.

oedipuss

January 15th, 2009, 08:45 AM

I have a growing suspicion that windows 7 really isn't anything more than vista SP2. Or SP1.5 even, with a shiny new taskbar and some new compiz-type plugins activated by default. I don't mean it just has few new features, I mean it actually is vista, with very slight, to almost no changes in the code.

Didn't they do an experiment of sorts, pushing a rebranded vista as Project something or other to a test group which responded positively ? Windows 7 might be just that..
The sad part is it's going to work :P

Flag

January 15th, 2009, 09:21 AM

Yeah and Vista was XP with a new GUI.
Let's face it, I'm using Linux as main OS for a couple of years now, but I always have XP handy on a VM., drivers, drivers, drivers. As long as this cannot be fixed a number of us will be forced to use it and I'm afraid it will stay that way for a long long time.

EdThaSlayer

January 15th, 2009, 10:13 AM

If Windows 7 wants to kill Linux, let it kill me first. :mad:
Microsoft would have to hunt us Linux users for the idea will remain alive as long as we breathe, live, perspire, and function with a mind(even if it means copying our brain to a computer).

Johnsie

January 15th, 2009, 12:27 PM

I recently moved back to Windows on the Desktop after 3 years of using Ubuntu. My reasons were simple. I wanted to use multimedia applications that weren't available on Linux and I wanted to use hardware that Linux doesn't support. I wanted to be able to use any hardware, not just Linux compatible stuff. Sometimes I felt like the 'Linux Alternative' packages just didnt have the high QA standards that professionally made products have because alot of them seemed to be hobby projects or had bad developers behind them. That happens in Windows too but I guess I got tired of using knockoff software all the time. Yes, I've kept Ubuntu on the Dual Boot just in case I ever decide to use Linux but Windows just has so much more software available.

So, I'm thinking that Windows 7 might be successful if it works well and is backwards compatible. People will use it because there's plenty of free software available, better technical support from hardware vendors and it's what they are familiar with. The problem with any new version of Windows is that it will always be competing with Windows XP which is already a satisfactory operating system for most people.

I still use Ubuntu-Server for my servers though. I don't see the point in wasting system resources by having a gui running 100% of the time. Ubuntu server is quick to set up with apache/php/mysql/postgres/samba etc and is very reliable. I guess the tricky parts are when it comes to setting up an ftp server. When I used windows as a server I used a really easy to use program called Home Ftp. The best thing about that program was that the developer was very friendly and implemented some features that I requested (limiting file types on uploads for certain users).

Archmage

January 15th, 2009, 12:39 PM

I never said I wanted those features in Compiz or Ubuntu. I'm just saying if you are willing to say that it could be easily programmed into Compiz, then prove it! Actually program it to prove it could easily be done in Compiz, or stop running your mouth.

The whole GUI improvments from Windows 7 are already in Compiz. No need to program anything.

HavocXphere

January 15th, 2009, 12:49 PM

lol @ Vista SP2 killing linux.:lolflag:

Marginally improving a disaster still doesn't make it a killer OS.

e.g. Their solution to crappy transfer speeds is changing "mb/s" to "files per second". User ignorance is bliss.

hihihi

January 15th, 2009, 12:55 PM

i just say:
V.I.R.U.S.

Johnsie

January 15th, 2009, 12:58 PM

Compiz is still pretty buggy and incompatible with some applications and hardware. The hardware issue is due to a lack of drivers availble to Linux users.

hihihi

January 15th, 2009, 01:22 PM

Compiz is still pretty buggy and incompatible with some applications and hardware. The hardware issue is due to a lack of drivers availble to Linux users.

AHA,
AND WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH THE ARTICLE?
are you paid by MS?

bufsabre666

January 15th, 2009, 01:37 PM

AHA,
AND WHAT HAS THIS TO DO WITH THE ARTICLE?
are you paid by MS?

it has nothing to do with the article but thats where the convo is leading.

but youre seriously ganna use this as your point? of course theres lack of complete driver support, of course compiz is buggy its at what 0.7? plus its development has slowed to a trickle, and compiz and certain apps really dont play nice, same with alot of other problems. you dont need to be paid by ms to see this (although if they wanted to pay me ill gladly take their money) hell their OS is buggy as hell too, by nature all software is

linux is great, but dont claim its perfect, when you see something as perfect you are less likely to see a need to fix it, which hinders innovation in alot of apps.

and also, you can skip the caps, please

fatality_uk

January 15th, 2009, 02:12 PM

I consider myself a long term Linux user and a fan of Ubuntu. I have headed two enterprise Linux migrations from Windows to Linux. However, Windows 7 looks like a winner for Microsoft! In my current role I had have a project looking at Linux migration for the last 4 months.

Right now, due to hardware that won't allow us to migrate and can't readily be changed, Windows 7 is looking like it could be the path we move to from XP.

lets see what the next 12 months brings from the Linux distros and if it can provide a real alternative to Windows7. There's no question, Linux will have to raise it's game to compete.

gn2

January 15th, 2009, 02:17 PM

And I've never flown an airplane.

I have, also I have watched three aircraft crashes and come close to having one myself when I had an EFATO while towing a glider.
(engine failure after takeoff)
Fortunatley I had planned for this eventuality and it was a simple matter of landing in a pre-selected field ahead.

Using Windows is like flying a plane, don't be surprised when it stops working, learn to expect it and plan ahead for when it will happen.

Dixon Bainbridge

January 15th, 2009, 02:35 PM

People buy OS's based on what apps run on them. No one, but serious geeks, and they don't matter, run an OS for the sake of an OS. If an OS doesn't have the right apps at the right price and the right functionality, an OS will die regardless of how good it is.

It's like game consoles. The consoles themselves don't matter, the quality of the games do. Good games sell a platform. Good apps sell a platform in computing, despite the relative shortcomings of the OS itself (ie, OSX slow as hell, XP/Vista, virus and security problems), Linux (lack of coherence).

Skripka

January 15th, 2009, 02:38 PM

lol @ Vista SP2 killing linux.:lolflag:

Marginally improving a disaster still doesn't make it a killer OS.

The only disaster was one of marketing, really.

People expected Vista to be XP, in terms of organization. It is not. They expected that any low-end computer that could run XP could run Vista, no way. With 6+ years between OSes, people forgot to expect change-and upped requirements.

Vista was an Epic Fail of marketing, Microsoft already seems to be doing better.

My brothers machine runs Vista, and it runs very nicely all around....of course when Vista came out, he was running what was then top of the line hardware-so it had no problems with it....he wasn't trying to run Vista on a PentiumII with 512 memory.

As said earlier, you cannot kill Linux so long as there is an interested community

Keyper7

January 15th, 2009, 02:42 PM

People buy OS's based on what apps run on them. No one, but serious geeks, and they don't matter, run an OS for the sake of an OS. If an OS doesn't have the right apps at the right price and the right functionality, an OS will die regardless of how good it is.

I agree, and this is where Windows 7 might shine. People spent months porting their apps and drivers to Vista and now those apps and drivers will probably work out of the box in 7.

Yes, it might be just Vista SP2. That's its strong point, not a weak one. Microsoft is not stupid.

geoken

January 15th, 2009, 04:03 PM

The whole GUI improvments from Windows 7 are already in Compiz. No need to program anything.

Can you point out which Compiz plugin re-enables thumbnail generation for minimized windows?

Then can you point out which compiz plugin can take the taskbar thumnail and make it represent all the windows in that taskbar tiles group?

Then can you show me which compiz plugin allows me to draw widgets into that taskbar thumnail and execute commands through a Dbus like api via those controls.

Then can you show me which compiz plugin allows me to minimize all other windows by grabbing one window and 'shaking it'.

Then can you show me which compiz plugin maximizies a window when it snaps to the top, maximizes only the height when you resize it to the panel, and tiles it a 50% when you snap it to the side.

Then can you show me which compiz plugin allows me to hover over a panel tile to temporarily bring that window forward without giving it focus, then restore the desktop to it's previous state when I move the mouse off that panel tile.

Dragonbite

January 15th, 2009, 04:15 PM

And I've never flown an airplane.

I have. It's fun. Also flown a motor-glider and a Cap10B aerobatic! Going upside-down for a moment shows you just how loose your seat belt is after you THOUGHT you tightened it!
:lolflag:

I recently moved back to Windows on the Desktop after 3 years of using Ubuntu. My reasons were simple. I wanted to use multimedia applications that weren't available on Linux and I wanted to use hardware that Linux doesn't support.

If you want something that waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck and swims like a duck then get a duck! No sense taking a Frog and trying to make it into a duck!

Yes Virginia, this is Vista SP3! That's a GOOD thing though because they are able to take what does work in Vista and fix/rebuild it instead of throwing the baby out with the bath water and starting with a new (buggy) kernel!

We'll see how backward-compatible Windows 7 will be, though doesn't Microsoft not have the best reputation for that? Or is that only with Office and such?

One thought with the high RAM usage (after talking with a co-worker here) is the release version will have things tightened down and cleaned up some from the Beta and this may be in one area that will improve as things get tightened.

Sigshane

January 15th, 2009, 04:25 PM

:roll:

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/review/392/1050392/windows-7-is-enough-to-kill-linux-on-the-desktop
Even if Windows 7 could make coffee for you, it's still gonna cost hundreds of dollars, and will still be the target of virii and security attacks.

I think I will stick to SLICK + SOLID + FREE versus SLICK + SEMISOLID + COSTLY + VULNERABLE.

Shane

Dragonbite

January 15th, 2009, 04:27 PM

Even if Windows 7 could make coffee for you, it's still gonna cost hundreds of dollars, and will still be the target of virii and security ATTACKS.

Ewwww... virii in my coffee! No wonder I've missed so many days of work from being sick! :lolflag:

Sigshane

January 15th, 2009, 04:31 PM

VirusES, then, heh heh.

I will admit that I have tri-booted 7 on my Vista/Hardy laptop. Did it last night. I can't really say why, other than to see how a 64-bit OS feels.

BTW, is that why there are two C:\Program Files directories, one of them having a (x86) appended to the folder name, for non-64-bit apps?

Shane

geoken

January 15th, 2009, 04:41 PM

BTW, is that why there are two C:\Program Files directories, one of them having a (x86) appended to the folder name, for non-64-bit apps?

Shane

Yes, all 32bit apps will install into your Program Files(x86) folder.

Giant Speck

January 15th, 2009, 05:56 PM

Can you point out which Compiz plugin re-enables thumbnail generation for minimized windows?

Then can you point out which compiz plugin can take the taskbar thumnail and make it represent all the windows in that taskbar tiles group?

Then can you show me which compiz plugin allows me to draw widgets into that taskbar thumnail and execute commands through a Dbus like api via those controls.

Then can you show me which compiz plugin allows me to minimize all other windows by grabbing one window and 'shaking it'.

Then can you show me which compiz plugin maximizies a window when it snaps to the top, maximizes only the height when you resize it to the panel, and tiles it a 50% when you snap it to the side.

Then can you show me which compiz plugin allows me to hover over a panel tile to temporarily bring that window forward without giving it focus, then restore the desktop to it's previous state when I move the mouse off that panel tile.

Holy crap! I didn't know that! AWESOME!

Oh, yes. And I agree, Compiz has not a single one of these plugins. People think so highly of Compiz that they think it can already do everything. And it can't.

SomeGuyDude

January 15th, 2009, 06:09 PM

Vadi

January 15th, 2009, 06:16 PM

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/news/0003_mortal_os_kombat_linux_versus_windows_7 [Mortal OS Kombat: Linux versus Windows 7]

My take: Linux

There's no doubt that Windows 7 will make more headway into the netbook market than its failed attempts at capitalizing on this emerging sector in 2008. But the ultimate factor in the netbook space isn't the feature-set of the operating system. It's the cost. When two similar notebooks exist at a hundred dollar price gap, we can't envision a consumer adopting the pricier model just for the Windows 7 experience. The hype can't possibly be that much of a selling point... right? Consumers might be having a trickier time adopting Linux, but in a worsening economy, they might have a more difficult time sacrificing that extra cash.

geoken

January 15th, 2009, 06:35 PM

As nice as Windows 7 may be (and I sincerely hope it IS a massive step forward), the fact is that the design of the OS is only half of the equation. The other half is the software you run on it. Finding software to run on Windows that wasn't either commercial or shareware drove me insane. Trillian wanted $30 for the "pro" version that was what the "free" version SHOULD be? MusicMatch Jukebox wants $25? $30 for a video format conversion tool??

Windows has a lot of other hurdles to overcome than what effects the desktop has, system security, or resource usage.

I don't understand how you weren't able to find free apps to do whatever you want.

How about running Pidgin on Windows.

What do you use on Linux for video conversion? Command line ffmpeg-available on windows. ffmpeg front end- there are more for windows than linux. AVIDemux - that app is essentially a clone of VirtualDub.

phrostbyte

January 15th, 2009, 06:39 PM

I don't understand how you weren't able to find free apps to do whatever you want.

How about running Pidgin on Windows.

What do you use on Linux for video conversion? Command line ffmpeg-available on windows. ffmpeg front end- there are more for windows than linux. AVIDemux - that app is essentially a clone of VirtualDub.

Well I like my OS to be free software as well. :) Really I don't see what the big hype is about Windows. It's not that great, and the company who makes it is downright evil. People might not give a crap but that's sad in a way.

Anyway I don't care if every who doesn't give a toss about anything but shiny leaves. The FOSS community which supports Linux is primarily about software freedom, always has been, always will be. If you don't care about software freedom maybe Windows is better for you.

cardinals_fan

January 15th, 2009, 06:42 PM

As nice as Windows 7 may be (and I sincerely hope it IS a massive step forward), the fact is that the design of the OS is only half of the equation. The other half is the software you run on it. Finding software to run on Windows that wasn't either commercial or shareware drove me insane. Trillian wanted $30 for the "pro" version that was what the "free" version SHOULD be? MusicMatch Jukebox wants $25? $30 for a video format conversion tool??

Windows has a lot of other hurdles to overcome than what effects the desktop has, system security, or resource usage.
I seriously don't get this. There are so many open source apps available for Windows. Whatever you may think of the author, you might like this list. Just skip past the rant:

http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&2008/12/10/23/43/18-the-big-move-defecting-from-linu

cardinals_fan

January 15th, 2009, 06:49 PM

I believe that more than 90% of linux users are fanboys (not in the negative term), who have installed themselfs the os and they are fine with it; linux users have made a choice unlike the windows one or mac one and the process could never be revers by a product or other; the direction is twoards GNU/Linux :)
I define a fanboy as a user who tries to push their opinions on others. I hope that 90% of Linux users don't do that...

The whole GUI improvments from Windows 7 are already in Compiz. No need to program anything.
Such as...?

i just say:
V.I.R.U.S.
No need for colors, caps, or misinformation.

phrostbyte

January 15th, 2009, 06:52 PM

I define a fanboy as a user who tries to push their opinions on others. I hope that 90% of Linux users don't do that...

So you mean fanboy = salesperson or marketing ?

I don't get you people, do you think all forms of persuasion is bad or something?

Giant Speck

January 15th, 2009, 07:04 PM

I don't get you people, do you think all forms of persuasion is bad or something?

I define a fanboy as someone who persuades through the medium of misconception. Not all forms of persuasion are bad, but the form of persuasion used by fanboys is bad.

SomeGuyDude

January 15th, 2009, 07:07 PM

I seriously don't get this. There are so many open source apps available for Windows. Whatever you may think of the author, you might like this list. Just skip past the rant:

http://beranger.org/index.php?page=diary&2008/12/10/23/43/18-the-big-move-defecting-from-linu

That was one example of many. I prefer Linux's unified packaging system to Windows as (I believe) would anyone who's ever opened up a program and gotten the "there's a new version!" notice, meaning you have to go to the dev's website, download the installer, and if you're lucky you only need to install it over the old version. Run "sudo pacman -Syu" or open up EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION I have and see if any of them need updated. Hmmm...

Then there's the fact that nothing in Windows' vast array of third-party applications that ensures safety or stability. If something's in the [extras] repository, I'm a lot more confident installing it than if it shows up on www.somejackassprogrammer.com and I'm just crossing my fingers it's going to work out.

I'm playing devil's advocate here to point out that Linux isn't some one-trick pony. It's not a "Windows alternative" that's mostly free stuff. It's a completely different OS and the ways it works I -vastly- prefer to the way Windows does things.

cardinals_fan

January 15th, 2009, 07:16 PM

So you mean fanboy = salesperson or marketing ?

I don't get you people, do you think all forms of persuasion is bad or something?
A fanboy is someone who pushes something to someone without any actual knowledge of their situation. I should have clarified this earlier. I myself have been known to make distro recommendations (just check Other OS Talk) when the person a) requests it and b) provides enough info for me to make an informed recommendation.

That was one example of many. I prefer Linux's unified packaging system to Windows as (I believe) would anyone who's ever opened up a program and gotten the "there's a new version!" notice, meaning you have to go to the dev's website, download the installer, and if you're lucky you only need to install it over the old version. Run "sudo pacman -Syu" or open up EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION I have and see if any of them need updated. Hmmm...

Then there's the fact that nothing in Windows' vast array of third-party applications that ensures safety or stability. If something's in the [extras] repository, I'm a lot more confident installing it than if it shows up on www.somejackassprogrammer.com and I'm just crossing my fingers it's going to work out.

I'm playing devil's advocate here to point out that Linux isn't some one-trick pony. It's not a "Windows alternative" that's mostly free stuff. It's a completely different OS and the ways it works I -vastly- prefer to the way Windows does things.
As a Slackware user, I actually don't use a package manager with automated dependency handling. I subscribe to the security mailing list and download important security updates manually. Otherwise, I only upgrade if I feel it is necessary. While this method takes a bit more work, I will say that I have never experienced breakage of any kind when upgrading my system. Why? Because I personally handle the upgrades and only perform them when I feel the benefits outweigh the risks.

Anyway, I do find the lack of an upgrade option (equivalent to upgradepkg on Slack) in Windows annoying.

phrostbyte

January 15th, 2009, 07:22 PM

A fanboy is someone who pushes something to someone without any actual knowledge of their situation. I should have clarified this earlier. I myself have been known to make distro recommendations (just check Other OS Talk) when the person a) requests it and b) provides enough info for me to make an informed recommendation.

Yeah and it's that wrong when to just promote Linux for the sake of it? Really I hate to break it to you, but advertising is a $100 billion dollar business. And it's rarely "fair and balanced".

There is nothing wrong with promoting Linux. And there is nothing wrong with being a "fan" of Linux. And I am really tired of people who think they have some natural right to attack people as "fanboys" because they are passionate and like what they use everyday. It's tiring and it's old.

geoken

January 15th, 2009, 07:24 PM

If you don't care about software freedom maybe Windows is better for you.

I care about dis-information, regardless of the arguments content. If I see someone spreading dis-information I will attempt to call it out even if I completely agree with the conclusion the person is reaching.

SomeGuyDude

January 15th, 2009, 07:27 PM

As a Slackware user, I actually don't use a package manager with automated dependency handling. I subscribe to the security mailing list and download important security updates manually. Otherwise, I only upgrade if I feel it is necessary. While this method takes a bit more work, I will say that I have never experienced breakage of any kind when upgrading my system. Why? Because I personally handle the upgrades and only perform them when I feel the benefits outweigh the risks.

Anyway, I do find the lack of an upgrade option (equivalent to upgradepkg on Slack) in Windows annoying.

That's fine that you don't, but I -do- and it's a feature I rather enjoy. It's the fact that I am alerted to all updates on my entire system from a centralized hub. Nothing's automated, and after my fiasco with X I check whenever it's a major upgrade, but the point is I'm informed of all updates to ANYTHING in my system, which I can then check up on.

Your scenario is no different from mine, except I don't download the updates manually. They come to me, whereupon I decide how to handle them. See what I mean?

My point with all of this is that, like I said, just because Windows has some Compiz-level effects and is lighter on the resources does NOT mean I or all the other Linux users are going to go running back. I didn't switch away from Windows because I wanted a free version of Windows with some extra glitz. I wanted a different way of using my system and am insanely happy with it.

To be frank, Windows could be 100% free, have all the shiny effects imaginable, and use no more RAM than a standard KDE installation, but guess what? I wouldn't use it. I am not a huge fan of Windows' layout or overall design.

I'm not even saying Windows is BAD (I'm probably amongst the minority who was defending even Vista), I'm just saying that Linux is in fact a completely legitimate OS with benefits beyond its cost and resource usage. This idea of Window 7 killing Linux seems to COMPLETELY whiff on why so many people stick with it.

Dragonbite

January 15th, 2009, 07:30 PM

That was one example of many. I prefer Linux's unified packaging system to Windows as (I believe) would anyone who's ever opened up a program and gotten the "there's a new version!" notice, meaning you have to go to the dev's website, download the installer, and if you're lucky you only need to install it over the old version. Run "sudo pacman -Syu" or open up EVERY SINGLE APPLICATION I have and see if any of them need updated. Hmmm...

Then there's the fact that nothing in Windows' vast array of third-party applications that ensures safety or stability.

That's why I use Firefox and Thunderbird on Windows, because they are secure third-party applications that lets me know when there is a new version and offers to download/install it automatically as well as check my add-ons. Plus they have a better interface and sets of features than other 3rd party products.

The centralized package management is not a Linux thing, it is an Open Source things! If it weren't for the fact that different operating systems / distros could get the source code and detect/modify/tweak the code as necessary for their particular flavor then the central repository concept would not work for Linux or any other operating system.

Microsoft has tried doing it (update manager) but it only works for the applications they have control over. Can you see Adobe giving Microsoft the ability to handle people's Acrobat or Flash updates? I don't think so.

The problem with the repository method, though, is when the repository is no longer updated with newer versions of software and you have to begin missing repository and manually installed applications and dependencies.

cardinals_fan

January 15th, 2009, 07:33 PM

Yeah and it's that wrong when to just promote Linux for the sake of it? Really I hate to break it to you, but advertising is a $100 billion dollar business. And it's rarely "fair and balanced".

There is nothing wrong with promoting Linux. And there is nothing wrong with being a "fan" of Linux. And I am really tired of people who think they have some natural right to attack people as "fanboys" because they are passionate and like what they use everyday. It's tiring and it's old.
I don't personally approve of it, but I can deal with Linux enthusiasts who provide that "fair and balanced" information. What annoys me is anyone, whether they are in a Madison Avenue skyscraper or their mom's basement, who deliberately spreads misinformation in an attempt to convert new users. I find that unethical.

In my experience, unbalanced promotion of Linux usually results in unhappy users who quickly stop using it and then complain about it. Until preinstalled Linux systems are common enough, motivation is absolutely essential to successfully switching.

phrostbyte

January 15th, 2009, 07:34 PM

I care about dis-information, regardless of the arguments content. If I see someone spreading dis-information I will attempt to call it out even if I completely agree with the conclusion the person is reaching.

You are assuming then that everything you know to be true is actually true. And really that's a very arrogant position to take.

phrostbyte

January 15th, 2009, 07:41 PM

I don't personally approve of it, but I can deal with Linux enthusiasts who provide that "fair and balanced" information. What annoys me is anyone, whether they are in a Madison Avenue skyscraper or their mom's basement, who deliberately spreads misinformation in an attempt to convert new users. I find that unethical.

In my experience, unbalanced promotion of Linux usually results in unhappy users who quickly stop using it and then complain about it. Until preinstalled Linux systems are common enough, motivation is absolutely essential to successfully switching.

I think what is really happening here is people like yourself are considering one's owns opinions about Linux as "information", and everything which does not agree with one's own opinion as "misinformation". Because almost everything that is commonly promoted in Linux, security, functionality, even it's free nature, they are all inherently subjective.

geoken

January 15th, 2009, 07:42 PM

You are assuming then that everything you know to be true is actually true. And really that's a very arrogant position to take.

If someone says something that I believe to be incorrect (ie. Compiz can do x) I will reply saying, "Can you please show me a link demonstrating how compiz does x because I'm confident it doesn't". This is exactly what I did a couple pages back.

If someone says you need to pay for apps to do a certain function on Windows and I point out that the very apps which exist on Linux for the given function also exist on Windows is that wrong?

Explain to me how that is arrogant.

geoken

January 15th, 2009, 07:44 PM

I think what is really happening here is people like yourself are considering one's owns opinions about Linux as "information", and everything which does not agree with one's own opinion as "misinformation". Because almost everything that is commonly promoted in Linux, security, functionality, even it's free nature, they are all inherently subjective.

Compiz can do X. That is not a subjective statement, it's true or untrue.

This function can only be carried out on Windows with non free applications. That is not subjective, it's either true or untrue.

cardinals_fan

January 15th, 2009, 07:49 PM

I think what is really happening here is people like yourself are considering one's owns opinions about Linux as "information", and everything which does not agree with one's own opinion as "misinformation". Because almost everything that is commonly promoted in Linux, security, functionality, even it's free nature, they are all inherently subjective.
This is pretty much true. The problem with marketing anything is that, without a specific knowledge of the target audience's system, it is impossible to know whether Ubuntu will actually be, for instance, easy to install.

However, as geoken says above, some things are rather concrete.

phrostbyte

January 15th, 2009, 07:55 PM

Compiz can do X. That is not a subjective statement, it's true or untrue.

This function can only be carried out on Windows with non free applications. That is not subjective, it's either true or untrue.

It is a subjective statement, because it can be interpreted many different ways.

Can Compiz do X?
Sure Compiz can do X, Compiz has an API so you can write a plugin to do X.

Can Compiz do X?
Sure Compiz can do X, using the Tiling plugin, maybe it's not "exactly" like Y, but then again what is "exactly" like Y but Y?

etc.

richg

January 15th, 2009, 07:57 PM

I doubt Windows 7 will kill LInux. Linux is only a bump on the log and Ubuntu is only a part of that bump.

Linus servers are a different story.

Even with all the issues of security using Windows, at least 80 percent of users still want something they recognize.
Many of you are not aware of the "Silent Majority" in the world. That is not going to change. Deal with it or create your own version of reality.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/windows/operatingsystems/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=212900741

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28627170

Rich

geoken

January 15th, 2009, 08:19 PM

It is a subjective statement, because it can be interpreted many different ways.

Can Compiz do X?
Sure Compiz can do X, Compiz has an API so you can write a plugin to do X.

Can Compiz do X?
Sure Compiz can do X, using the Tiling plugin, maybe it's not "exactly" like Y, but then again what is "exactly" like Y but Y?

etc.

No it can't. If I ask you if your car has 350hp and it only has 100hp will you answer yes. Along the same lines, if you were on a car forum and an inquisitive potential buyer said "Hey guys, does the VW GTI have more HP than a WRX STI" would you answer yes?

phrostbyte

January 15th, 2009, 08:29 PM

No it can't. If I ask you if your car has 350hp and it only has 100hp will you answer yes. Along the same lines, if you were on a car forum and an inquisitive potential buyer said "Hey guys, does the VW GTI have more HP than a WRX STI" would you answer yes?

If your question is can a X car have 100 HP, I could very well answer yes. In mathematical logic there is a very limited set of objective qualifiers, and "can" is not one of them.

If you are so interested in objectivity you are barking up the wrong tree. If the world was so objective we wouldn't need judges, lawyers, critics, etc. The closet thing you can get to objectivity is the world of pure mathematics, and that's not what we are doing here.

geoken

January 15th, 2009, 08:37 PM

If your question is can a X car have 100 HP, I could very well answer yes. In mathematical logic there is a very limited set of objective qualifiers, and "can" is not one of them.

If you are so interested in objectivity you are barking up the wrong tree. If the world was so objective we wouldn't need judges, lawyers, critics, etc. The closet thing you can get to objectivity is the world of pure mathematics, and that's not what we are doing here.

If someone came on here and asked if WINE can run this app are you really telling me you would say yes, even if you knew that apps current status was garbage.

If the answer is yes, you're doing a huge disservice to the Linux community with your intentional dishonesty.

thisllub

January 16th, 2009, 02:03 AM

It is a big improvement over Vista but as a virtual machine in in VirtualBox I don't have to do much to bring down my whole X server.
XP doesn't do that.

wrtpeeps

January 16th, 2009, 02:45 AM

i just say:
V.I.R.U.S.

I think the best part about this post is that you have managed to make yourself look really silly by just typing 5 letters.

Virus is not an acronym. :lolflag:

wrtpeeps

January 16th, 2009, 02:53 AM

Martigen

January 16th, 2009, 04:27 AM

stinger30au

January 16th, 2009, 05:16 AM

linux wont die in a big hurry

its geting there, very slowly

give it time, more and more people are waking up and seeing how great it is

Jion_Wansu

January 16th, 2009, 05:28 AM

Linux 2.6.27 > Windows NT 6.1

That is all

SomeGuyDude

January 16th, 2009, 05:48 AM

I think the best part about this post is that you have managed to make yourself look really silly by just typing 5 letters.

Virus is not an acronym. :lolflag:

I notice you spend an awful lot of time yammering about how great Windows is and bitching at people who don't agree.

deepclutch

January 16th, 2009, 11:37 AM

Linux 2.6.27 > Windows NT 6.1
There used to be a source which compares the kernels of each .obviously ,Linux won every time :D .
--
GNU/Linux is serving a niche users ,who dont go for os x or window$ .that community is growing .

hodge24

January 16th, 2009, 12:15 PM

The need to quantify, and to "win" has always amused me. Linux has an established and loyal user and developer base and the chances of Linux being killed are slim to none.

Personally, I don't see the operating systems as being in competition anyway - they just coexist. Some people use Windows, some people use Linux, some people use Mac OS, and so on. The only place they really compete is in the corporate world, where EVERYTHING is about competition, and quantification. But even there, it's really SLAs with large companies such as RedHat that are in the race, and not the operating systems.

As long as there those who enjoy Freedom, there will always be Linux, regardless of the "market share" the OS takes.

wrtpeeps

January 16th, 2009, 12:37 PM

I notice you spend an awful lot of time yammering about how great Windows is and bitching at people who don't agree.

I spend a lot of time mocking the people who are so blinkered on these forums that their posts are nothing but absolute drivel. :)

geoken

January 16th, 2009, 02:35 PM

Linux 2.6.27 > Windows NT 6.1

That is all

You'd probably need to elaborate on that.

As it stands, from an end user perspective, that statement is about as irrelevant as the color of the PCB that my mobo is printed on.

deepclutch

January 16th, 2009, 05:11 PM

^^
http://widefox.pbwiki.com
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Windows_and_Linux

http://www.google.co.in/search?q=linux+kernel+vs+windows+kernel&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=com.ubuntu:en-US:unofficial&client=firefox-a

SomeGuyDude

January 16th, 2009, 05:21 PM

I spend a lot of time mocking the people who are so blinkered on these forums that their posts are nothing but absolute drivel. :)

Fair enough. There definitely is a lot of blind anti-Windows BS 'round these parts. :popcorn:

Personally I'm with hodge24. I'd like to see a completely free and open choice between ALL the OS's. The shame now is the field is tilted so much against Linux that I think most people can't make that honest decision. The way I see it, if they're all competing openly against each other, innovations in one will lead to improvements in all. Maybe Windows 7 is what happens when MS realizes that Windows CAN lose ground. If somehow Windows pulls Linux users away (which I doubt) then Linux devs will put in the extra effort, etc...

SunnyRabbiera

January 16th, 2009, 06:53 PM

For anyone who hasn't installed the beta (can't be assed, don't have the time, won't let said evil near their machine etc) there's a visual tour of some of the new features here:

http://www.choice.com.au/viewArticle.aspx?id=106691&catId=100199&tid=100008&p=1&title=Video+tour+of+Windows+7

I like it how he brags about the slideshow, we had that for years here :D
Its in KDE3 and KDE4 and can be used with a few modifications with gnome.

billgoldberg

January 16th, 2009, 07:47 PM

:roll:

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/review/392/1050392/windows-7-is-enough-to-kill-linux-on-the-desktop

All I can say is:

No.

--

Frankly I'm tired about hearing about how windows 7 is going to be the linux killer.

It's a faster version of Vista.

How exactly would that kill Linux on the desktop?

I fail to see it.

Tom--d

January 16th, 2009, 08:13 PM

It will not kill the Linux Desktop but it sure is nice tho.

I'm running the Windows 7 Beta 1 (Build 7000) now.

Its like Vista but a lot faster and uses less memory. Everything in my laptop worked out of the box (surprising).
It has some nice features.

For once, Microsoft has made a good OS.

duds2008

January 16th, 2009, 08:18 PM

:roll:

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/review/392/1050392/windows-7-is-enough-to-kill-linux-on-the-desktop
Yeah but I bet it still suffers from the BSOD!! :)

Barryes123

January 16th, 2009, 08:23 PM

I hope that Windows 7 will be a better success than Vista. I do believe that Linux will still be around for a long time. Cant wait for the 7 release. Has anyone installed it yet? If they have I would enjoy some feedback..Thank you.

Barry

gjoellee

January 16th, 2009, 08:26 PM

Windows 7 or any other Windows version ever made can give the same functionality as Linux can. As long as Windows 7 won't give people their needs, people wont move to it!

fatality_uk

January 16th, 2009, 08:28 PM

hatten

January 16th, 2009, 10:18 PM

No offense to Ubuntu but comparing the looks of Windows 7 to Ubuntu? Why doesn't he try comparing Windows Vista/7 with a solid distro running KDE 4.2?!

And with requirements (or suggested specs) of 2 GB of Ram and SATA hard drives, I won't be going to Windows 7 with any of my systems! I have maybe 1 system able to get over 2 GB of RAM, but it is still not SATA!

heck, i have 512MB ram and my ubuntu worked perfect out-of-the-box (until i upgraded to intrepid, but it's reinstalled now so everythings perfect again)

uberdonkey5

January 16th, 2009, 10:34 PM

I don't get it, is there ANY advantage of this to linux. Lets face it, linux (even ubuntu) is not a user friendly install, and is a bit bland to start, but once you customise it linux seems to beat windows hands down. Windows is still gonna be more suceptible to viruses, with less control over the system, and heck, to be honest, until windows is not for profit, open source and dedicated towards user needs rather than pretty pictures it can never compete with linux.

This reviewer takes the view of the standard user, and windows already dominates the market in that area. I think people who have vista will buy Win7 and be happy. People with linux will stick with their customised and stable system and be happy :D

kloudy

January 16th, 2009, 10:35 PM

I don't know. I had Win7 installed on this laptop last weekend but found that I could not do it like I should with only 1G of ram on this machine and the slow mobile processor (Dell Inspiron 600m laptop).

I used Fiesty about a year ago and couldn't figure it out to comfortably make changes. Now with 8.1, I am happy with the ease of setup and the good interaction with the wifi, thumb drives and sound and video applications. There have been many improvements and I applaud the developers.

I intend to give this an earnest try to get comfortable with navigation and making changes. If anyone knows of a shortcut page that lists what I need to access to more easily install software, I would appreciate the link. Things like Alt + F2 and the like.

You all have a great weekend!

Levi

Giant Speck

January 16th, 2009, 10:58 PM

I have installed Beta 7009 and to be honest Barryes, I wouldn't bother if I were you.

I'd like to know where you found this so-called build 7009, because I haven't been able to find it.

xarte

January 16th, 2009, 11:10 PM

Linux won't be killed because the developers don't get anything out of it. They aren't doing it for the money. It makes no difference to them if 50 or 500 or 500000 people use their distro. Except that support forum servers might get overloaded.

The only way windows 7 is going to kill Linux is if all the people doing development go "oh, I've had enough of hacking code for nothing. Maybe I'll see if Microsoft has a job for me."

Red Hat has stated that their commercial release is highly dependant upon the community of coders working on Fedora.

Linux is driven by the people who create it, not the users who 'buy' it. IN fact not having to constantly answer questions from n00bs like me would probably allow the community more time to focus on tweaking the important stuff!!!! Mabye it would be good for linux if the computer-illiterate masses DON'T have linux on their desktop.

How many of these support-hungry users actually MAKE A DONATION to their favorite distro?

I may run a Windows 7 machine for gaming but I love linux and now it's finally at a point where I can run it minimal knowledge, I'm sticking with it. Hopefully I can find some ways to contribute, too.

getaboat

January 16th, 2009, 11:27 PM

MS needs W7 to be a good 'un because I haven't seen widespread adoption of Vista in the work environment.

I like XP for my MS work stuff and Office 2007 is a "killer app". I need a new house Windows PC but I won't have Vista (ME2 IMHO) but from what I've heard so far W7 looks to be the one - so I'll wait a year.

While MS looks to be getting the desktop right they seem to going the other way with their server and development stuff which I struggle to keep up with (actually I'm at least 3 years behind already!). Give me LAMP anyday - at least the technology there stays still long enough to try and get up to speed with it.

But will I use W7 for my personal computing? Nope. I'll stick with Ubuntu. I'm in control, there is fantastic genuine help available, good interesting software and it is relaxing computing.

geoken

January 16th, 2009, 11:31 PM

So are they requesting that Windows be shipped with alternate browsers?

billgoldberg

January 16th, 2009, 11:35 PM

I don't get it, is there ANY advantage of this to linux. Lets face it, linux (even ubuntu) is not a user friendly install,

Have you ever installed a Windows before?

How exactly is it easier than installing Ubuntu or another user friendly distro?

hatten

January 17th, 2009, 12:42 AM

Have you ever installed a Windows before?

How exactly is it easier than installing Ubuntu or another user friendly distro?installing windows (XP) was way more disturbing that installing ubuntu.

ubuntu: *click click click* *wait wait wait* *done*
XP: *click* *wait* *click* *wait* *click* *wait* *done*

i prefer ubuntu:P

Giant Speck

January 17th, 2009, 01:44 AM

I don't think I could give a reliable comparison between installing Windows 7 and Ubuntu, since I installed Windows 7 with an install disc, and I installed Ubuntu with Unetbootin.

Polygon

January 17th, 2009, 02:31 AM

windows 7 install is now almost as easy as a ubuntu one. Vista was terrible as it didnt let you choose partitions so it just took over the entire drive

Frak

January 17th, 2009, 02:37 AM

windows 7 install is now almost as easy as a ubuntu one. Vista was terrible as it didnt let you choose partitions so it just took over the entire drive
Back it up, Vista has always let me choose partitions. I also find 7 to be even easier to install than Ubuntu. Why? Lack of many options on the parititioner and install options.

Giant Speck

January 17th, 2009, 02:37 AM

windows 7 install is now almost as easy as a ubuntu one. Vista was terrible as it didnt let you choose partitions so it just took over the entire drive

I did love the fact I could choose a partition. If I hadn't have seen that when I tried to install it in VirtualBox, I wouldn't have gone and installed it to my hard drive.

fatality_uk

January 17th, 2009, 01:47 PM

I'd like to know where you found this so-called build 7009, because I haven't been able to find it.

Well I have been close friends with Steve Balmer for many years, after I taught him to play extremeSudoku. He called me the other day and asked if I want the "latest" build for Win7. I said of course I do, "my" OS always has to be bleeding edge.

So he fired up Brassero on his laptop, burned a DVD and got FedEx to run a copy over to me the other day. After I loaded the DVD, I realised that he had burnt the DVD the wrong way up and so it wouldn't work.

So he wrote out the code for Windows 7 by hand, on toilet paper and attached to the leg of a carrier pidgeon, which I then copied out, converted using Gambas into VB like code and compiled....

Or it could have been a typo.

I'll let you decide!

jskandhari

January 17th, 2009, 02:10 PM

I have Win 7 ; Win vista ; Mac OSX Leopard and UBUNTU 8.10 and by far Ubuntu is the best ;)

All of these are on my laptop agreed Win 7 is by far better than Vista it looks like Vista was a failed prototype of Win 7. Win 7 is quite stable even in beta stage.. but nothing beats Ubuntu its like driving a same car with same suspension steering control same engine ( Processor ) but with a better management system better ECU driver assistance...

Ubuntu ( or rather Linux being open source has the edge )
Ubuntu provides the best customizability when you say computer is personal it truly is with Ubuntu (linux) as each Linux represents it owner..

Pick up any two Ubuntu's after a month of different users use and you will see a lot of difference like we humans have same number of bones but different skin color looks feel.. whereas for windows it is just different clothes nothing else

binbash

January 17th, 2009, 02:25 PM

It is just faster than vista, that is all nothing more

geoken

January 17th, 2009, 02:41 PM

It is just faster than vista, that is all nothing more

In fairness, Vista was a really good OS if you fell into the "It runs even faster than XP on my box" group of people (which I did).

newbie2

January 22nd, 2009, 03:29 PM

Ubuntu's Shuttleworth praises Windows 7, welcomes fight :
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/22/shuttleworth_windows_7/
:biggrin:

Dixon Bainbridge

January 22nd, 2009, 03:51 PM

I have Win 7 ; Win vista ; Mac OSX Leopard and UBUNTU 8.10 and by far Ubuntu is the best ;)

What a daft thing to say. Best at what exactly? Seeing how an OS is only as good as the apps written for it, Ubuntu is a poor second to windows and OSX.

I often wonder what people use an OS for. Do they just look at it all day and not run any apps on it?

Linux does a great job at being solid, but the commercial support for it for 3rd party apps is still extremely poor, and like it or not, most linux freebie apps just dont measure up in terms of technical quality, workflow and usuability, than commercial apps.

Professionals and serious users, be it musicians, photographers, film makers etc, need serious applications. They aren't available on linux.

Linux is a serious piece of kit in the server, network market. Its the biggest hitter. On the desktop, its little more than a toy, something for hobbyists to play with. Sure, you can do general officey stuff with it, like i do, just as long as you dont have to do anything demanding with it that requires serious amounts of workflow. Without commercial 3rd party application support, thats where linux will stay - amateur OS for enthusiasts and hobbyists. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all.

C0pac3t1c

January 22nd, 2009, 04:21 PM

Nope because to tell you the truth some of the features microsoft put on windows is a spin-off from mac and/or linux...

C0pac3t1c

January 22nd, 2009, 04:23 PM

Tozzonator

January 22nd, 2009, 04:30 PM

There is no chance I have been running xubuntu for the past six months since my windows vista pc has died and I don't intend on turning back either, it's faster, friendlier and by far superior to my high spec Windows machine. I'm considering dumping Windows and solely using xubuntu. Also I have used Windows 7 and it defiantly isn't as good as Microsoft make out, and I agree with many of these posts, Microsoft have just copied the ideas of Mac and Linux.

Cammy

January 22nd, 2009, 04:32 PM

I don't understand the article in the original post. Windows 7 might be better than Vista, but it still costs money, as do all the software apps you have to buy for it. And it's still susceptible to virii and malware.

Why would I want to switch OSs just because the new one doesn't suck as bad as the old one? Sorry, I won't be switching, especially considering that I can do everything I need to do in Linux.

Smeags

January 22nd, 2009, 04:47 PM

What a daft thing to say. Best at what exactly? Seeing how an OS is only as good as the apps written for it, Ubuntu is a poor second to windows and OSX.

I often wonder what people use an OS for. Do they just look at it all day and not run any apps on it?

Linux does a great job at being solid, but the commercial support for it for 3rd party apps is still extremely poor, and like it or not, most linux freebie apps just dont measure up in terms of technical quality, workflow and usuability, than commercial apps.

Professionals and serious users, be it musicians, photographers, film makers etc, need serious applications. They aren't available on linux.

Linux is a serious piece of kit in the server, network market. Its the biggest hitter. On the desktop, its little more than a toy, something for hobbyists to play with. Sure, you can do general officey stuff with it, like i do, just as long as you dont have to do anything demanding with it that requires serious amounts of workflow. Without commercial 3rd party application support, thats where linux will stay - amateur OS for enthusiasts and hobbyists. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that at all.

Dixon, you took the words right out of my mouth. Although my experience with Linux is very limited, what you described is absolutely true and, as you said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

I can see myself in the near future using Ubuntu as my "main" OS...that is, to do my normal, everyday tasks such as Internet, music and, as Dixon put it, "general officey stuff". Why wouldn't I? It's more secure than Windows. However when it comes down to it, PC gaming is probably 75% why I even own a computer at all. I realize I'm probably in somewhat of a minority in my PC usage as compared to the general worldwide usage of PC's, but for my own purposes I need Windows for that aspect.

I'm not a fan of playing games on a console. So when/if Linux becomes equal to or better than Windows in the gaming area, that's when I will completely jump ship to Linux...I'd have no reason not to then.

newbie2

January 22nd, 2009, 04:49 PM

Professionals and serious users, be it musicians, photographers, film makers etc, need serious applications. They aren't available on linux.

Linux is used to create practically every blockbuster movie in theaters today, movies produced by Disney/Pixar, DreamWorks Animation, Sony, ILM, and other studios.
http://www.linuxmovies.org/

http://hehe2.net/linuxhowto/free-professional-music-production-a-linux-introduction/

:rolleyes:

Dixon Bainbridge

January 22nd, 2009, 05:19 PM

http://www.linuxmovies.org/

http://hehe2.net/linuxhowto/free-professional-music-production-a-linux-introduction/

:rolleyes:

Sorry, but that still doesnt cut it. Where's the choice of apps? Fact is, on windows or OSX I have a wide choice of excellent commercial options. Need a desktop publisher? There are hundreds for OSX and Windows. Linux? Err.... Scribus anyone? Thought not, its awful.

The vast majority of major software companies still dont take desktop linux seriously. Until they do, linux will be a niche, for hobbyists and die hards. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of linux, its just that it doesnt cut the mustard for serious use at the moment. A user needs choice. I don't know why people have a problem dealing with this. At the end of the day, its a tool, not your lover.

DM was on fire!

January 22nd, 2009, 05:38 PM

Sorry, but that still doesnt cut it. Where's the choice of apps? Fact is, on windows or OSX I have a wide choice of excellent commercial options. Need a desktop publisher? There are hundreds for OSX and Windows. Linux? Err.... Scribus anyone? Thought not, its awful.

The vast majority of major software companies still dont take desktop linux seriously. Until they do, linux will be a niche, for hobbyists and die hards. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of linux, its just that it doesnt cut the mustard for serious use at the moment. A user needs choice. I don't know why people have a problem dealing with this. At the end of the day, its a tool, not your lover.

I know a lot of people who discount it, but Wine really is the way to go.
And even if you do need Windows apps and they don't run on Wine, there's a little thing called dualbooting. ;D

I think the truth of the matter is that Windows is just that...Windows.
It's going to be buggy, it's going to have the typical Windows problems (viruses, spyware, trojans, et cetera). People are going to get tired of it, and if they don't go to Linux, they'll atleast go to Mac.

Smeags

January 22nd, 2009, 05:47 PM

All OS's have bugs. Just because you happen to be anti-Microsoft doesn't mean that Linux and Mac are so much less buggy than Windows.

My Vista OS has given me zero problems since day 1.

Dragonbite

January 22nd, 2009, 06:03 PM

will1911a1

January 22nd, 2009, 06:20 PM

Do I still have to pay for it? Yes? Sorry, I'll be sticking with Linux.

Dragonbite

January 22nd, 2009, 06:35 PM

I find nothing wrong with paying for software to run on Linux if that's what I need in order to do what I have to do.

At least, though, when comparing software that runs on Windows and OS X to software in Linux remember to include paid-for and proprietary software (when it is available). Just because one uses Linux doesn't mean they WON'T spend money.

On the other hand, don't discount that a lot of open source applications are available on Linux and Windows and sometimes OS X (I don't have/use one so I don't pay attention to what is and isn't ported); Gimp, OpenOffice.org, Inkscape, Pidgin, Firefox, aMSN, Thunderbird, Dia, Nvu/Komposer, Mono, KDE, Scribus, Abiword and more.

Frak

January 23rd, 2009, 12:40 AM

http://www.linuxmovies.org/

http://hehe2.net/linuxhowto/free-professional-music-production-a-linux-introduction/

:rolleyes:

No, just no. This is the equivalent of telling somebody that they will receive a Porsche when they join. Thing you don't tell them is that it may have been used, there may be "biological material" in the back seat, the door has a dent, and it can't go over 70 MPH. It's creating a fake utopia.

Sorry, but that still doesnt cut it. Where's the choice of apps? Fact is, on windows or OSX I have a wide choice of excellent commercial options. Need a desktop publisher? There are hundreds for OSX and Windows. Linux? Err.... Scribus anyone? Thought not, its awful.

The vast majority of major software companies still dont take desktop linux seriously. Until they do, linux will be a niche, for hobbyists and die hards. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of linux, its just that it doesnt cut the mustard for serious use at the moment. A user needs choice. I don't know why people have a problem dealing with this. At the end of the day, its a tool, not your lover.

+1

I think the truth of the matter is that Windows is just that...Windows.
It's going to be buggy, it's going to have the typical Windows problems (viruses, spyware, trojans, et cetera). People are going to get tired of it, and if they don't go to Linux, they'll atleast go to Mac.

Linux is also buggy. Linux has the same malware problems, only nobody has the interest in developing for such a dead platform, as it's probably not going to return anything. IMHO, most Macs are a tad more secure than a standard Linux distribution, and even they're prone to malware. That doesn't fair well.

All OS's have bugs. Just because you happen to be anti-Microsoft doesn't mean that Linux and Mac are so much less buggy than Windows.

My Vista OS has given me zero problems since day 1.

+10000000000000000

mkendall

January 23rd, 2009, 07:00 AM

At the end of the day, its a tool, not your lover.

You know nothing about me and my Linux so keep your judgements to yourself, thank you very much.

here2serve

January 26th, 2009, 02:23 AM

I don't click on any "Linux Killer" links because the idea is just a silly way to get page hits. It's a non issue.

1a2

January 26th, 2009, 02:33 AM

bisconer

January 26th, 2009, 07:27 AM

linux fanboys are just as sad as windows fanboys. atleast the windows ones are getting paid.

bisconer

January 26th, 2009, 07:32 AM

OH NO! Bill gates needs that money for insurance on his stretched corvette. :)

news flash, bill gates dosn't work for MS any more :D

Yashiro

January 26th, 2009, 07:35 AM

Nope, but MS works for him. Albeit in a weaker capacity during this ecomomic climate.

MikeTheC

January 26th, 2009, 07:36 AM

Nope, but MS works for him. Albeit in a weaker capacity during this ecomomic climate.

And with soon-to-be 5000 fewer mindless drones er, I mean employees.

HuaiDan

January 26th, 2009, 07:58 AM

No, just no. This is the equivalent of telling somebody that they will receive a Porsche when they join. Thing you don't tell them is that it may have been used, there may be "biological material" in the back seat, the door has a dent, and it can't go over 70 MPH. It's creating a fake utopia.

+1

Linux is also buggy. Linux has the same malware problems, only nobody has the interest in developing for such a dead platform, as it's probably not going to return anything. IMHO, most Macs are a tad more secure than a standard Linux distribution, and even they're prone to malware. That doesn't fair well.

+10000000000000000

-100000000000000000000

Total misinformation, sir. I've been running Ubuntu for several weeks without AV or firewall. Not one security compromise, not one.

If I tried to run Windows without fully configured firewall and AV/AMW in place before connecting to the internet, I would be dead in the water in minutes, living in China, e virus factory of the world.

I am simply in AWE of this amazing attribute of linux, after soooooo many security headaches and appalling resource consumption of security in windows.

Linux: No security needed. YMMV.

Giant Speck

January 26th, 2009, 08:05 AM

I don't click on any "Linux Killer" links because the idea is just a silly way to get page hits. It's a non issue.

Then how did you manage to post in this thread?

ade234uk

January 26th, 2009, 09:59 AM

Sorry, but that still doesnt cut it. Where's the choice of apps? Fact is, on windows or OSX I have a wide choice of excellent commercial options. Need a desktop publisher? There are hundreds for OSX and Windows. Linux? Err.... Scribus anyone? Thought not, its awful.

The vast majority of major software companies still dont take desktop linux seriously. Until they do, linux will be a niche, for hobbyists and die hards. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of linux, its just that it doesnt cut the mustard for serious use at the moment. A user needs choice. I don't know why people have a problem dealing with this. At the end of the day, its a tool, not your lover.

I agree it still cannot be taken seriously, however there are thousands of apps on Linux that do the job you are looking for, you just need to dig deeper. I know scribus is awful, but it's free and for someone on a budget it just about does the job.

etnlIcarus

January 26th, 2009, 10:03 AM

The article posted by the OP is from a site which seems to be a really obtuse Onion wanna-be (I honestly can't tell what part of that person's sophomoric writing is meant to be taken seriously) and this thread is full of fail. I want the last 10 minutes of my life back.

beyboo

January 26th, 2009, 10:10 AM

:roll:

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/review/392/1050392/windows-7-is-enough-to-kill-linux-on-the-desktop

Let Firefox and Openoffice make IE and MS OFfice completely outdated, then we can talk about replacing Linux on the desktop.

Till date most ecommerce, even if hosted on Linux / Unix backends - still have MS Office Development tools which are in turn tied to Internet Explorer.

Till we have browser independence, it is not relevant if Linux is there on the desktop or not.

thraxy

January 26th, 2009, 10:12 AM

We'll see who will be doing the killing in 10 years when Windows users still are stuck with Windows 7.

kneewax

January 26th, 2009, 10:59 AM

I thought I might look at the beta of ******* 7. BUT it is a 3.3Gb download. Now tell me the old ******* Bloat is a thing of the past.

And I bet the old 3.1 File Manager is still there like it has been in every other incarnation. MS are still to lazy to right new code from the beginning, type fileman in any version of ******* and you will find the 3.1 manager. Simply layering code on top of an existing OS is not innovation.

No Thanks.

I like my OS' lean, functional and expandable.

Chame_Wizard

January 26th, 2009, 11:03 AM

whahaha,Win 7 a Linux killer?

Yeah right,i installed yesterday Kubuntu Intrebex(Intrepid Ibex),within 1 hour i got lots of software without problems.

(restarted ONLY after ADEPT manager updates,hardware drivers and KDE 4.1.3 Install);).

zipperback

January 26th, 2009, 11:11 AM

yawn..... Windows 7 presents very little threat to Linux.

WelterPelter

January 26th, 2009, 11:20 AM

Poppycock!

Chame_Wizard

January 26th, 2009, 11:22 AM

the task bar and everything,it's ugly IMHO :D

zipperback

January 26th, 2009, 11:26 AM

Let Firefox and Openoffice make IE and MS OFfice completely outdated, then we can talk about replacing Linux on the desktop.

Firefox is a superior browser which is more secure than IE and is open source.

OpenOffice.org is a solid drop in replacement available for MS Office, and it is open source.

And both Firefox and OpenOffice.org are available for download without financial impact to the end user. Most modern distributions include these items by default.

Till date most ecommerce, even if hosted on Linux / Unix backends - still have MS Office Development tools which are in turn tied to Internet Explorer.

False! MS Office Development tools and Internet explorer have NOTHING to do with running eccommerce on a Linux server. You are putting forth false information.

Till we have browser independence, it is not relevant if Linux is there on the desktop or not.

Browser independence for Linux? Huh? Do you know what you are talking about? You do realize that Firefox is a cross platform standards compliant browser RIGHT?

Please get your facts correct.

- zipperback
:popcorn:

EnGorDiaz

January 26th, 2009, 11:31 AM

Linux will never die. It's funny, I read an article recently with the opening statement reading something like "Seven years ago they were calling Linux a Windows killer, today there calling Windows 7 the Linux killer"

Will you stop using Linux just because Microsoft released a new OS? I doubt It, even If Windows 7 is better then any Linux OS out their that will just drive the community to improve on it. Besides the majority of us enjoy tinkering with our systems to an extent that can't be done on any Windows system.

i use all three :) mac os x ubuntu arch debian and windows 7

Giant Speck

January 26th, 2009, 11:32 AM

Firefox is a superior browser which is more secure than IE and is open source.

OpenOffice.org is a solid drop in replacement available for MS Office, and it is open source.

And both Firefox and OpenOffice.org are available for download without financial impact to the end user. Most modern distributions include these items by default.

Yes, but Internet Explorer and Microsoft Office make up the backbone of the Windows operating system. While Firefox and OpenOffice have established themselves as worthy competition to those two applications, they haven't made them obsolete.

Browser independence for Linux? Huh? Do you know what you are talking about? You do realize that Firefox is a cross platform standards compliant browser RIGHT?

I don't think he's talking about browser independence for Linux. I think he's talking about browser independence for Windows. There are still parts of the Windows operating system that rely on Internet Explorer. It's the only reason it ships with Windows in the first place. Once that dependence is removed, people will have a larger exposure to open source software and in the long run, Linux. Or something. I really don't care enough to try to elaborate someone else's comments any further than that.

Giant Speck

January 26th, 2009, 11:33 AM

i use all three :) mac os x ubuntu arch debian and windows 7

On the same computer? That would be really interesting.

hatalar205

January 26th, 2009, 11:35 AM

If you let your horse live freely in the wild life, it is really difficult to get it back to your farm again. Because, it has learnt what freedom means. Like that Linux is a window opening to freedom, if you see it, you will never want to look back. Windows 7 or something like that is like a golden handcuff. It is really precious but nobody wants to have.

Chame_Wizard

January 26th, 2009, 12:04 PM

i use all three :) mac os x ubuntu arch debian and windows 7

I hope it's gonna crash your PC.

Johnsie

January 26th, 2009, 12:09 PM

I don't think the Windows people have much to worry about from Linux. The whole netbooks thing made people realise that Linux still isn't acceptable for most users. Linux netbooks had an extremely high return rate.This may have been because of bad versions of Linux distributed on the netbooks, but also because most normal users simply don't understand Linux.

Yeah some people may adopt Linux, but a massive majority are sticking with what they know and aren't going to be easily convinced to switching to Linux. They will not be satisfied by the famous Linux alternative programs that are usually low quality hobbyist knock-offs of existing Windows programs. Linux needs to be innovative and more money needs to go into developing high quality software packages that have good coding standards, quality assured GUI's, and there needs to be standards.

meho_r

January 26th, 2009, 12:27 PM

meho_r

January 26th, 2009, 12:33 PM

Johnsie

January 26th, 2009, 12:38 PM

Giant Speck

January 26th, 2009, 12:38 PM

I hope it's gonna crash your PC.

Now, now. That isn't a very nice thing to say, is it? [-X

meho_r

January 26th, 2009, 12:49 PM

bgerlich

January 26th, 2009, 01:07 PM

Some people even went as far as trying to take advantage of poor children in Africa to try and push Linux.

I'm not a linux fanboy and I really didn't feel like posting in a flame/troll thread today but this really demands a rebuttal.

There are no words that can state my contempt for this kind of a comment. Mr. Negroponte's project and ideas has it's flaws but a system with permissive license on the OLPC wasn't one of them. Dragging african children into your silly and petty argument about operating systems is simply deplorable.

Not only that, it is also mischievous and harmful to try to belittle one of the few efforts that are there to raise the level of education in third world countries. If you haven't ever taken part in any effort to help the underprivileged, and I can bet you haven't, kindly refrain yourself from stating such opinions, especially in writing.

This is hardly constructive criticism, hardly criticism at all. If anything it borders libel.

Giant Speck

January 26th, 2009, 01:07 PM

The problem is that there are some Linux fanboys out there that think everyone should be using Linux/OSS. This is not the case. Some people even went as far as trying to take advantage of poor children in Africa to try and push Linux. Different people have different tastes and requirements and it should never be seen as a crime to actually like Windows. No operating system is perfect.

While I agree with your first statement about Linux fanboys, I have to disagree with the statement about sending laptops to Africa.

The children they are providing laptops to probably haven't had any exposure to computers. They aren't going to be making servers or sharing files, and they aren't going to be downloading and installing programs. For them, it really doesn't matter what operating system is on the computer because they don't know the difference between Windows or Linux.

Linux isn't being pushed on the children. Linux is just the cheapest way of getting as many laptops to as many children as possible.

kneewax

January 26th, 2009, 01:10 PM

I'm not a linux fanboy and I really didn't feel like posting in a flame/troll thread today but this really demands a rebuttal.

There are no words that can state my contempt for this kind of a comment. Mr. Negroponte's project and ideas has it's flaws but a system with permissive license on the OLPC wasn't one of them. Dragging african children into your silly and petty argument about operating systems is simply deplorable.<snip>

This is hardly constructive criticism, hardly criticism at all. If anything it borders libel.

Here here, well said.

etnlIcarus

January 26th, 2009, 01:23 PM

The whole netbooks thing made people realise that Linux still isn't acceptable for most users. Linux netbooks had an extremely high return rate. One of the manufacturers (think it was MSI) said the *nix netbooks had a higher return rate than their Windows counterparts - not, "extremely high", just higher. Spare the melodrama.

Also, a couple of weeks afterwards, ASUS said their return rates were, "similar", for the *nix models.

but a massive majority are sticking with what they know and aren't going to be easily convinced to switching to Linux.Good for them. Ignorant people parting with their money is what keeps the market-based economy from collapsing anymore than it already has.

They will not be satisfied by the famous Linux alternative programs that are usually low quality hobbyist knock-offs of existing Windows programs.Horse ****. For the most common usage needs, there are professional quality alternatives for pretty much everything except Flash and that's not a problem, either.

It's not that they won't be satisfied because 'linux apps suck'; they won't be satisfied because equivalent software is different. Even if the difference is only application-name deep, the average user needs constant instruction just to get out of the mentality of, "Internet Explorer is the Internet".

Linux needs to be innovative and more money needs to go into developing high quality software packages that have good coding standardsWhat the hell are you talking about? The quality of code coming out of most projects is at a minimum, on-par with commercial coding efforts. People who work for large software firms or have had access to Windows' source have confirmed as much.

and there needs to be standardsNo ****. Go tell MS this before accusing FOSS of a lack of standardization. IE's historical lack of standards conformity is a big part of why the Internet sucks. Hackers are still trying to figure out how the hell to make OOXML - a supposed standard introduced by MS - work correctly.

Some people even went as far as trying to take advantage of poor children in Africa to try and push Linux.Take advantage? That's it, you are now officially an idiot. How the hell is giving poor kids free laptops 'taking advantage' of them? You want the OLPC project to pay for XP licenses and maybe give away a quarter as many laptops?

thraxy

January 26th, 2009, 02:01 PM

Ok, since this is getting a bit off track, I'd just like to share that I don't give a crap about what African children have on their laptops. They can have mustard on them for all I care. That has absolutely nothing to do with the OPs subject.

The point is that Windows 7 is the holy grail for Windows users, seen as Vista is undeniably crap and Microsoft is slowly choking the life out of XP. For the sake of Windows users I really do hope Windows 7 will be absolutely fantastic. After all, that's what they'll be stuck with for the next 5 or more years.

Is Windows 7 better than any Linux distro? And if so, will it still be better in a year? Or in two years? Or three years?

I think it'll take a bit more than a new Windows release to kill off the Linux desktop community.

Dragonbite

January 26th, 2009, 02:31 PM

Nope, but MS works for him. Albeit in a weaker capacity during this ecomomic climate.

MS works for me as well, including anybody with stock or mutual fund which includes MS in their portfolio.

So I guess I'm the greedy ******* that forces MS to make lousy products in order to line my pockets!?

geoken

January 26th, 2009, 03:19 PM

One of the manufacturers (think it was MSI) said the *nix netbooks had a higher return rate than their Windows counterparts - not, "extremely high", just higher. Spare the melodrama.

He specifically states the returns were more than 4 times higher ( http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4679943918.html?kc=rss).

Good for them. Ignorant people parting with their money is what keeps the market-based economy from collapsing anymore than it already has.

And Linux elitist with their ignorant comments are what sour many potential users on the Linux experience, which is heavily tied to the Linux community. I guess my wife, who spends at least 13 hours a day running her business, is ignorant because she doesn't want to spend even more time learning to use a new OS and working around it's failings.

Horse ****. For the most common usage needs, there are professional quality alternatives for pretty much everything except Flash and that's not a problem, either.

There are very few 'professional quality' alternatives. Where is the professional quality Movie Maker alternative. Have you ever used Linux financial management apps? If you think they're professional then you've never used QuickBooks or MS Small Business.

It's not that they won't be satisfied because 'linux apps suck'; they won't be satisfied because equivalent software is different. Even if the difference is only application-name deep, the average user needs constant instruction just to get out of the mentality of, "Internet Explorer is the Internet".

Your disdain for the common person is very disheartening. Your ignorance on the feature gaps between the big name apps and their Windows alternatives while making the aforementioned comments makes you look very silly. Which Linux financial management app can remove or add names to distribution groups in my email client's contact list based on it's billing cycles. Which one auto-generates invoices and put invoices in my email client's Drafts folder?

No ****. Go tell MS this before accusing FOSS of a lack of standardization. IE's historical lack of standards conformity is a big part of why the Internet sucks. Hackers are still trying to figure out how the hell to make OOXML - a supposed standard introduced by MS - work correctly.

So rather than address his point, you choose to attack MS. You seem to be in top form.

bgerlich

January 26th, 2009, 03:32 PM

geoken, most of your points are of course valid but I never understood the term "Linux elitists" some people use and why the term elitists seems only to apply to linux users. Of course some may be stuck up but this is just how people in general are. Ever tried to have a discussion about cars with a professional mechanic, driver or just plain car enthusiast ? :)

geoken

January 26th, 2009, 03:32 PM

I think it'll take a bit more than a new Windows release to kill off the Linux desktop community.

I think we should keep in mind that when they say kill off, they are referring to future potential, not current Linux users.

Many people consider netbooks to form a large part of the computer landscape in the coming years. Forthcoming cheap desktops, with netbook like specs (ie. the Eee keyboard, Eee TV) are also expecting to blow up. People thought that this would put Linux in a good position because the only Microsoft alternative was the aging XP. When people say kill off, they are referring to Linux's potential to dominate this new market and thrive, they aren't really talking about it's existing user base.

etnlIcarus

January 26th, 2009, 03:56 PM

He specifically states the returns were more than 4 times higher ( http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4679943918.html?kc=rss).I stand corrected.

And Linux elitist with their ignorant comments are what sour many potential users on the Linux experience, which is heavily tied to the Linux community. I'm not a *nix elistist. Far from it. I just have little patience for people who think they can feign knowledge and convincingly BS their way out of the hole they're quickly digging for themselves.

I guess my wife, who spends at least 13 hours a day running her business, is ignorant because she doesn't want to spend even more time learning to use a new OS and working around it's failings. Ignorant as in completely oblivious to the existence of alternatives. Ignorant isn't an insult; I'm the first to admit that I'm ignorant about cars or tamarins, amongst other subjects. Nice, "you called my children animals", Ted Haggard job you attempted to pull there, though.

There are very few 'professional quality' alternatives. Where is the professional quality Movie Maker alternative. Have you ever used Linux financial management apps? If you think they're professional then you've never used QuickBooks or MS Small Business. These are the most common computer tasks, now?

Your disdain for the common person is very dishearteningThe, "common person", is very disheartening. Of course ,I say that sitting atop my elitist mansion, sipping a martini and chuckling to myself.

That's the imagery you were going for, right?

Your ignorance on the feature gaps between the big name apps and their Windows alternatives while making the aforementioned comments makes you look very silly.I did what now?

So rather than address his point, you choose to attack MS. You seem to be in top form.He made a point? Where was his examples? His evidence? He didn't make a point, he made an accusation. And a bad one at that. Only a complete moron would suggest OSS is lacking standards.

And no, I didn't attack MS; I provided examples of where standards have been lacking.

Now, your hit-job on my post was utterly abysmal and completely uncalled for. You're put words in my mouth, intentionally misread and avoided my actual points and made insulting suggestions of my character. Do me a favour and next time, don't waste your time with the above spin and general dickishness. If you're willing to offer an apology, I'm all ears but otherwise, leave me be.

geoken

January 26th, 2009, 04:25 PM

Ignorant as in completely oblivious to the existence of alternatives. Ignorant isn't an insult; I'm the first to admit that I'm ignorant about cars or tamarins, amongst other subjects. Nice, "you called my children animals", Ted Haggard job you attempted to pull there, though.

You're saying people are ignorant because they don't like something. That's were the elitist comment comes from. You allow for two scenarios, know about Linux and prefer it or be ignorant about it. The "I have no time to adjust my work flow" and "I simply dislike it" arguments seem to be non-existent in your characterization.

Also, sorry for putting real faces to your countless, comedicaly stereotypical characterizations. Next time I'll let your persona's be so you may freely attribute to them whatever personality traits strengthen your argument.

These are the most common computer tasks, now?

I can only speak for myself and those I know. I'm sure there are many who have no need for financial management software. I'm sure there are many who have no need for stable consumer level video editing software. My point is that when you exit the realm of big name apps (Firefox, Open Office, Amarok, Gimp) the quality goes down very dramatically. The apps everyone uses get a lot of attention, the niche apps don't. The problem is that many people have some niche.

The, "common person", is very disheartening. Of course ,I say that sitting atop my elitist mansion, sipping a martini and chuckling to myself.

That's the imagery you were going for, right?

The phrase itself is irrelevant, it's the qualities you attribute to them. I've never met a person who needed to be told more than once "Use this program for the internet instead" (in reference to Firefox).

Skripka

January 26th, 2009, 04:37 PM

I can only speak for myself and those I know. I'm sure there are many who have no need for financial management software. I'm sure there are many who have no need for stable consumer level video editing software. My point is that when you exit the realm of big name apps (Firefox, Open Office, Amarok, Gimp) the quality goes down very dramatically. The apps everyone uses get a lot of attention, the niche apps don't. The problem is that many people have some niche.

Bingo.

In my field, there are no professional-quality Linux softwares. The choice is either Sibelius or Finale, and an XP install or an Apple-as RoseGarden just doesn't put out professional quality notation IME.

Fenris_rising

January 26th, 2009, 05:13 PM

7 months of Ubuntu goodness here. PC and Netbook. There is nothing Microsoft can offer me that will have me try their OS ever again. I have freedom to do what ever I like with MY hardware when I want, if I want. Since I changed I have had more fun, better productivity and only minor, brief problems as compared to any windows product I have used. I am not a rabid anti-microsoft zealot and people have a right to choose what they use. But I don't like MS for it's business tactic's and IMHO the dumbing down of computing. That said Linux isn't for everyone, but I am not an expert nor will I ever be but I am prepared to try and learn what I can to make my setup 'mine' to work as I want and look how I want. Nothing will stop Linux the genie is out of the bottle and cannot be contained. Here's to Linus and all who forged the path for we mere mortals. :)

regards

Fenris

mangar

January 26th, 2009, 05:45 PM

Windows 7 will not kill Linux, since the extremly low adoption of desktop Linux probably means that it is used by Linux and FOSS enthusiasts, and enthusiasts usually stick to their prefered brand without consideration other than their preference.

Windows is already close to removing Linux from the netbook market.
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/22289/1154/

Personally, I think than Windows 7 will do almost nothing to Linux market share (exect wooing away the quite small "ooh-shiny" Compiz!!!1 crowd).
Apple, most likely, will be hit the hardest, and without Steve Jobs providing them with leadership, they will have a really hard time.

I've tried Windows 7, btw, and it does not feels (to me) any faster than Vista (the 64bit version). The little thouches are very good - Dock, Jump-lists, new calculator (at last!), Windows Explorer, Libraries, and two tons of polish. The Control Panel is still a bloody mess, nVidia's WDDM 1.1 driver is very buggy, and the overall finish is still not as good as Apple's, but it's quite a good system, and pretty pleasant to use.

Use Linux because you like it, not because you feel compeled to attacks some windmills.

rickyjones

January 26th, 2009, 05:45 PM

I have freedom to do what ever I like with MY hardware when I want, if I want.

Not to thread-jack but I've heard similar phrases on Linux forums before and it always makes me wonder - what do you exactly mean by this?

I'll use the best operating system for the job which means my arsenal includes Ubuntu, Windows and sometimes Apple if the client needs to do a certain task.

However in all my computing, all my consulting, all my fiddling... I've never encountered a situation where Microsoft has restricted my freedom when using my hardware.

Are you speaking of Trusted Computing modules, which is optional and not exactly implemented yet? Are you talking DRM which I've never ran into since I don't utilize DRM content?

I see the phrase thrown around and it just bothers me since I never seem to see the root cause.

As for the actual thread - killing another system is just not a good choice of words. However I will say that I am greatly impressed with Windows 7 - so much that I removed Ubuntu from my laptop and I am now using Windows 7 exclusively for my day to day tasks. It might replace Vista on my fiancees laptop next.

Thanks and sincerely,
Richard

Dragonbite

January 26th, 2009, 07:01 PM

I think Mark Shuttleworth has the right idea regarding Windows 7, as mentioned here (http://www.workswithu.com/2009/01/25/mark-shuttleworth-strikes-the-right-tone-on-windows-7/) and here (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/01/22/shuttleworth_windows_7/).

Apparently not. "I'm not going to 'diss it", he [Mark] said categorically. So there.

In fact, Shuttleworth believes a good version of Windows will end the current phony war between Windows and Linux in the high-growth netbook market and reignite the fight on features and capabilities.

red_Marvin

January 26th, 2009, 07:05 PM

You're saying people are ignorant because they don't like something. That's were the elitist comment comes from. You allow for two scenarios, know about Linux and prefer it or be ignorant about it. The "I have no time to adjust my work flow" and "I simply dislike it" arguments seem to be non-existent in your characterization.

No. They are ignorant because they don't take the time to learn the program as well as the one they try to replace, before they dismiss it for being incomplete/difficult/different. That means they are still ignorant of the programs strengths, but not on the points where it didn't work as they thought. Maybe they don't have time or can't afford or be bothered to take the time to learn the new system, but they will still be ignorant of it. If they do take their time and learn the ins and outs of the system, and then dismiss it for whatever reasons, they are not ignorant.

If you dismiss the guitar as an instrument after trying it for ten seconds, with the experience of five years playing drums, you would be ignorant of its strengths.

Not to thread-jack but I've heard similar phrases on Linux forums before and it always makes me wonder - what do you exactly mean by this?

Voltaire said something like (from memory) "I don't like what you're saying, but I'd die fighting for your right to say it."
And paraphrasing it for this situation; I don't poke around much in the source of FOSS projects, but I still like to have the possibility to do so.
For me personally my reasons are philosophical/political.

uberdonkey5

January 26th, 2009, 07:12 PM

Not to thread-jack but I've heard similar phrases on Linux forums before and it always makes me wonder - what do you exactly mean by this?

I'll use the best operating system for the job which means my arsenal includes Ubuntu, Windows and sometimes Apple if the client needs to do a certain task.

However in all my computing, all my consulting, all my fiddling... I've never encountered a situation where Microsoft has restricted my freedom when using my hardware.

Are you speaking of Trusted Computing modules, which is optional and not exactly implemented yet? Are you talking DRM which I've never ran into since I don't utilize DRM content?

I see the phrase thrown around and it just bothers me since I never seem to see the root cause.

As for the actual thread - killing another system is just not a good choice of words. However I will say that I am greatly impressed with Windows 7 - so much that I removed Ubuntu from my laptop and I am now using Windows 7 exclusively for my day to day tasks. It might replace Vista on my fiancees laptop next.

Thanks and sincerely,
Richard

Well, I have used windows for at least 13 years, and linux for 1 year. However, when I recently wanted to shut down my computer after a set period of time, I did a search on the net and found a neat 3 line code which I could link to a launcher icon, and there I had my solution (for free) with linux. Maybe its my inexperience with windows, but I don't have a clue how to do the same thing with windows, and I wouldn't even attempt to find a solution. Linux has SOLUTIONS to many specific problems, and the internet and community is an integral part of that. I do use windows for editing video (as I think the available software is better), but for managing my computer linux is a world ahead.

My challange to you is to do the same with Windows 7 within 1 hour. (took me about 20 minutes)
P.S. I AM willing to be convinced! I don't know anything about windows 7

rickyjones

January 26th, 2009, 07:37 PM

Well, I have used windows for at least 13 years, and linux for 1 year. However, when I recently wanted to shut down my computer after a set period of time, I did a search on the net and found a neat 3 line code which I could link to a launcher icon, and there I had my solution (for free) with linux. Maybe its my inexperience with windows, but I don't have a clue how to do the same thing with windows, and I wouldn't even attempt to find a solution. Linux has SOLUTIONS to many specific problems, and the internet and community is an integral part of that. I do use windows for editing video (as I think the available software is better), but for managing my computer linux is a world ahead.

My challange to you is to do the same with Windows 7 within 1 hour. (took me about 20 minutes)
P.S. I AM willing to be convinced! I don't know anything about windows 7

You can create a Windows Batch script file to shutdown Windows using two lines of code.

http://samanathon.com/windows-tip-shutdown-your-computer-with-a-batch-file/

First result from a Google search.

I thank you for your response to my post however I'm interested in this supposed loss of freedom, in regards to my hardware, when I'm using Microsoft software.

In fact I would argue that currently I have more freedom with Windows than I do with Linux in regards to software. Using Windows allows me to use the software I'm more familiar with in addition to using a multitude of programs from Linux. Hence I have more freedom of choice, in mu opinion.

Mind you - I tend to use both Linux and Windows in my professional and personal life. I enjoy the Open source philosophy and Linux interests me greatly.

Thanks,
Richard

Frak

January 26th, 2009, 07:53 PM

-100000000000000000000

Total misinformation, sir. I've been running Ubuntu for several weeks without AV or firewall. Not one security compromise, not one.

If I tried to run Windows without fully configured firewall and AV/AMW in place before connecting to the internet, I would be dead in the water in minutes, living in China, e virus factory of the world.

I am simply in AWE of this amazing attribute of linux, after soooooo many security headaches and appalling resource consumption of security in windows.

Linux: No security needed. YMMV.
You never presented any evidence. My post still stands, as this doesn't have any supporting cases to stand on.

/argument

You can try again later, once you get some proof with you. Remember that no OS is perfect, and all OS's are insecure because they can take in information and output information.

saulgoode

January 26th, 2009, 08:37 PM

However in all my computing, all my consulting, all my fiddling... I've never encountered a situation where Microsoft has restricted my freedom when using my hardware.
Ever had a problem finding a Windows driver because the manufacturer went out of business (Voodoo, Turtle Beach, Bournoulli) or decided to stop supporting older hardware as an "incentive" for you to buy their latest offering (Creative, NVidia)? Ever wanted to hook a printer up to a headless server but can't because the driver installer requires a GUI and won't work with network/TTY systems? Or the 2Mb driver installs about 180 megabytes of files and you don't have the drive space? Ever get caught in a Catch-22 where you need the network driver in order to download the network driver from a website?

rickyjones

January 26th, 2009, 08:47 PM

Ever had a problem finding a Windows driver because the manufacturer went out of business (Voodoo, Turtle Beach, Bournoulli) or decided to stop supporting older hardware as an "incentive" for you to buy their latest offering (Creative, NVidia)? Ever wanted to hook a printer up to a headless server but can't because the driver installer requires a GUI and won't work with network/TTY systems? Or the 2Mb driver installs about 180 megabytes of files and you don't have the drive space? Ever get caught in a Catch-22 where you need the network driver in order to download the network driver from a website?

I thank you for your response but you didn't point out a single example where Microsoft has restricted my freedom to use hardware.

1. If a hardware company goes out of business then that is that. Generally speaking the last driver they handed out will most likely work.

2. My headless server at a client site allows me to install the Canon and KonicaMinolta and HP drivers through Remote Desktop without any issue.

3. In Windows you absolutely can install just the driver without the extras. HP is notorious for the extras that you speak of. Just use the Add Hardware Wizard and select the driver files. Separate the files so that the extras can't be installed.

4. The catch 22 you speak of can happen on any system. Install the drivers from the disk that came with your hardware. You did keep this, correct?

All of those examples are due to third parties, not Microsoft. Just like if my wireless controller does not work in Linux it is not Ubuntu's fault but the manufacturer and that is OK.

Thanks,
Richard

Frak

January 26th, 2009, 08:58 PM

HP is notorious for the extras that you speak of.

Or download the basic driver. It's very small compared to the others, but only installs the drivers, along with some printer time options (special page orientations, printer specific options), but no other features. (ink levels, photo imager, etc.)

saulgoode

January 26th, 2009, 09:16 PM

All of those examples are due to third parties, not Microsoft. Just like if my wireless controller does not work in Linux it is not Ubuntu's fault but the manufacturer and that is OK.
To be honest, I always wince a little when I read such a response (i.e., "it's not Linux's fault, ..."). The fact is, lack of support for a certain piece of hardware is a valid criticism regardless of who's to blame.

Linux's "business model" is a contributing factor to some manufacturers not supporting it. Likewise Microsoft's business model contributes to vendors not disclosing their source code (NDAs on MS internals, use of proprietary SDKs, etc). While neither entity is fully to blame for their less-than-ideal hardware support, they both bear some degree of responsibility for their situation.

Dragonbite

January 26th, 2009, 09:31 PM

I thank you for your response but you didn't point out a single example where Microsoft has restricted my freedom to use hardware.

1. If a hardware company goes out of business then that is that. Generally speaking the last driver they handed out will most likely work.

2. My headless server at a client site allows me to install the Canon and KonicaMinolta and HP drivers through Remote Desktop without any issue.

3. In Windows you absolutely can install just the driver without the extras. HP is notorious for the extras that you speak of. Just use the Add Hardware Wizard and select the driver files. Separate the files so that the extras can't be installed.

4. The catch 22 you speak of can happen on any system. Install the drivers from the disk that came with your hardware. You did keep this, correct?

All of those examples are due to third parties, not Microsoft. Just like if my wireless controller does not work in Linux it is not Ubuntu's fault but the manufacturer and that is OK.

Thanks,
Richard

Requiring to use RDP over dial-up (yes Virginia, there is a dial-up) is a royal pain compared to openSSH. Not a show stopper, its just annoying.

rookworm

January 26th, 2009, 09:34 PM

the article is kind of silly.

that said, I don't think that the distros are doing enough to capitalize on Vista's poor reception while the window of opportunity still exists!!

also, hopefully the desktop environments will copy the best interface improvements from 7

etnlIcarus

January 27th, 2009, 01:14 AM

You're saying people are ignorant because they don't like something. That's were the elitist comment comes from. You allow for two scenarios, know about Linux and prefer it or be ignorant about it. The "I have no time to adjust my work flow" and "I simply dislike it" arguments seem to be non-existent in your characterization.

Also, sorry for putting real faces to your countless, comedicaly stereotypical characterizations. Next time I'll let your persona's be so you may freely attribute to them whatever personality traits strengthen your argument.I love how you're not above taking a general comment, twisting it to polarised extremes and then positioning yourself as fightin' for the little guy in the middle. Well at least you're not trying to make this personally about your wife anymore.

My point is that when you exit the realm of big name apps (Firefox, Open Office, Amarok, Gimp) the quality goes down very dramatically. The apps everyone uses get a lot of attention, the niche apps don't. The problem is that many people have some niche.This is somewhat true; feature-completeness drops far more than general quality does, however.

The phrase itself is irrelevant, it's the qualities you attribute to them. I don't have to attribute any qualities to the average user. It would be cynical of me to suggest the average computer user is anything other than completely inept. If PCs, like vehicles, had the potential to kill people, we wouldn't even let these people use MS Paint.

I've never met a person who needed to be told more than once "Use this program for the internet instead" (in reference to Firefox).Well then I guess your anti-elitist, defense of the, "common people", nonsense wasn't coming from a place of experience. On the other hand, I do deal with people who ask questions along the lines of, "if I'm turning off the computer, why am I clicking, "Start"?". Quite a few of them, in fact.

cardinals_fan

January 27th, 2009, 01:45 AM

I hope it's gonna crash your PC.
Spite will do you no good.

I'm not a linux fanboy and I really didn't feel like posting in a flame/troll thread today but this really demands a rebuttal.

There are no words that can state my contempt for this kind of a comment. Mr. Negroponte's project and ideas has it's flaws but a system with permissive license on the OLPC wasn't one of them. Dragging african children into your silly and petty argument about operating systems is simply deplorable.

Not only that, it is also mischievous and harmful to try to belittle one of the few efforts that are there to raise the level of education in third world countries. If you haven't ever taken part in any effort to help the underprivileged, and I can bet you haven't, kindly refrain yourself from stating such opinions, especially in writing.

This is hardly constructive criticism, hardly criticism at all. If anything it borders libel.
It has nothing to do with the earlier post, but I will point out that several people on this forum have failed epically by suggesting that Bill Gates' foundation is somehow a criminal front, just out of ignorant jealousy/bitterness.

-100000000000000000000

Total misinformation, sir. I've been running Ubuntu for several weeks without AV or firewall. Not one security compromise, not one.

If I tried to run Windows without fully configured firewall and AV/AMW in place before connecting to the internet, I would be dead in the water in minutes, living in China, e virus factory of the world.

I am simply in AWE of this amazing attribute of linux, after soooooo many security headaches and appalling resource consumption of security in windows.

Linux: No security needed. YMMV.
I normally don't approve of editing posts to try and cover up what one said, but it would be justified in this case. If you'd like to remove this, let me know and I'll erase my comments and just let it slip away into the past.

Barring that, I will correct the blatant misinformation in this post:

1. I've been running Windows XP for almost seven years. Until one month ago, I didn't run an antivirus. How many compromises did I have? Zero. Common sense is both free and priceless. I would still do that, except that I discovered the superb heuristics-based ThreatFire. If it had a Linux version, I would use it.

2. You claim that no security is needed for Linux. This is arrogant and completely untrue. "Security" is not a bloated antivirus that pops up periodically demanding money. It isn't a firewall either, though I strongly recommend one on any system (Linux has the excellent iptables built in, though FreeBSD's pf is even better). Security is 99.999% up to you, the user. You are the one who either thinks about their computing logically or blindly stumbles about. You are the one who applies your real-world experience and doesn't trust everything you see or read. Almost every security problem on any system can be traced to user incompetence, ignorance, or arrogance. Don't let yourself fall into one of the three. Windows has very poor defaults. But those defaults are not hard to change, and even good defaults will not save a user without the ability to think logically.

bgerlich

January 27th, 2009, 06:09 AM

It has nothing to do with the earlier post, but I will point out that several people on this forum have failed epically by suggesting that Bill Gates' foundation is somehow a criminal front, just out of ignorant jealousy/bitterness.

If I ever see a post like that on the forum, I will also be compeled to answer in a similar manner, although like OLPC, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation and Trust is far from perfect.

1. I've been running Windows XP for almost seven years. Until one month ago, I didn't run an antivirus. How many compromises did I have? Zero. Common sense is both free and priceless. I would still do that, except that I discovered the superb heuristics-based ThreatFire. If it had a Linux version, I would use it.

2. You claim that no security is needed for Linux. This is arrogant and completely untrue. "Security" is not a bloated antivirus that pops up periodically demanding money. It isn't a firewall either, though I strongly recommend one on any system (Linux has the excellent iptables built in, though FreeBSD's pf is even better). Security is 99.999% up to you, the user. You are the one who either thinks about their computing logically or blindly stumbles about. You are the one who applies your real-world experience and doesn't trust everything you see or read. Almost every security problem on any system can be traced to user incompetence, ignorance, or arrogance. Don't let yourself fall into one of the three. Windows has very poor defaults. But those defaults are not hard to change, and even good defaults will not save a user without the ability to think logically.

I think the previous poster was trying to refer to this research:http://isc.sans.org/survivaltime.html

Sadly it is true that unprotected and unpatched XP box gets owned on the internet in 10 minutes (some say that it can take up to 16 hours). You are of course right that system security is up to user in XP and it shouldn't be. It is extremely hard to move the responsibility to sysadmin because how the system was designed. In Linux also a lot depends on user, but it doesn't have to.
It is also strange that you mention the triumvirate of user incompetence, ignorance and arrogance. An argument is often being made that Linux is not ready for desktop because of the learning curve and frankly I think it is far easier to be competent Ubuntu user than competent XP user. If such an important component as system security and integrity relies so heavily on the users' competence, some may say that XP is not ready for the desktop yet ;)

I'm not saying that linux distros will withstand any user, all I want to point out is that most distros' design and distribution models enhance security significantly and promote good practices.

EnGorDiaz

January 27th, 2009, 07:44 AM

No offense to Ubuntu but comparing the looks of Windows 7 to Ubuntu? Why doesn't he try comparing Windows Vista/7 with a solid distro running KDE 4.2?!

And with requirements (or suggested specs) of 2 GB of Ram and SATA hard drives, I won't be going to Windows 7 with any of my systems! I have maybe 1 system able to get over 2 GB of RAM, but it is still not SATA!

ummm i have windows 7 installed on my ide harddrive okthnxbi

Dragonbite

January 27th, 2009, 02:40 PM

ummm i have windows 7 installed on my ide harddrive okthnxbi

So the article didn't cover that aspect very well. This brings me hope. Thanks (btw.. what is "okthnxbi"?)

I've heard now that Windows 7 is going to be upgradable from Vista but not from XP?

If this is true then I'm going to suggest to a friend who is looking at getting a computer to go with Vista now, and then a few months after Windows 7 is release then suggest he upgrades. He uses CAD software so Linux isn't the best bet for him.

Oh, and I love the quotes of "unprotected and unpatched" systems getting owned. How many people here have never updated their computers?

Even Linux, if left unpatched, will become vulnerable to the bad-guys. Maybe not as quick, but I wouldn't risk doing my banking on a non-updated system.