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Vadi
January 4th, 2009, 04:02 AM
If anyone noticed, Pidgin (http://pidgin.im/)'s website has been getting some usability improvements (http://pidgin.im/support/) lately. Amazingly enough, they even implemented a version of Brainstorm (http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/), which is a great tool for collecting user feedback and needs from a large base.

... unfortunately, that was all just an illusion. The website improvements are apparently a work of Casey Ho (http://blog.caseyho.com/), same with Brainstorm. The improvements aren't actually endorsed by the developers; even more, they took down brainstorm two days after. Their reason? "too much stuff to follow", as seen in this thread (http://pidgin.im/pipermail/devel/2009-January/007262.html).

They additionally reinforced their steel grip on the project and feature design while at that:


Everything that happens in Pidgin will always need to be filtered
through the developers first before anything changes. We are in charge
of the project. This just misleads users as to what level of impact
they have on things.

Coupled with the "gtfo off our bugtracker" attitude:


For the last time, if you are not a Pidgin developer or patch writer, DO NOT WASTE OUR TIME BY COMMENTING ON THIS TICKET.

I think they missed out on the memo that user interaction and feed back is a good thing.. Even a Gartner analyst picked up (http://blogs.gartner.com/thomas_otter/2008/12/23/learning-from-ubuntu-and-canonical/) Canonical's way (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/253) of this and recommended it as a practice.

I think for all it's worth you can count Pidgin even more closed-source than some proprietary programs. At least good companies there listen to their users and implement user-requested features at a better rate than Pidgin.

Count me even more disappointed with the, pardon the wording, ****** attitude of Pidgin developers. As soon as Empathy is on par with features I need, I'm dumping Pidgin for good. Go choice.

p_quarles
January 4th, 2009, 04:06 AM
I think for all it's worth you can count Pidgin even more closed-source than some proprietary programs. At least good companies there listen to their users and implement user-requested features at a better rate than Pidgin.
No, you're simply incorrect. "Open source" means you can take the source and change it how you like it. It does not mean that can demand things from those already working on that code.

They might make wrong decisions, but they're still in charge of what they do with the project, just like they say. That has absolutely nothing to do with the openness of the code.

thraxy
January 4th, 2009, 04:06 AM
Yeah, that's why I don't use Pidgin. It doesn't give me what I want, and probably never will.

BWF89
January 4th, 2009, 04:26 AM
Pidgin hasn't even implemented the feature where if someone IM's you the Pidgin box in the task bar blinks to alert you to new messages yet. You have to install the plugins package for Pidgin to get that feature. Which you think would be not only a very in demand feature but also easy to implement. How hard would it be to have a check box in the regular preferences asking you whether or not you want the taskbar to flash when new messages are received?

the yawner
January 4th, 2009, 05:17 AM
From the developers POV, it would really be overwhelming and frustrating wrestling control of the project from people who think they should have more say on what will be the direction of the project.

Spr0k3t
January 4th, 2009, 06:07 AM
From the developers POV, it would really be overwhelming and frustrating wrestling control of the project from people who think they should have more say on what will be the direction of the project.

You got that right. I mean, if I were driving the project of purple, the first thing I would do is remove all IM protocols with the exception of XMPP and then implement the others as plugins.

But that's the reason why I don't drive the project.

p_quarles
January 4th, 2009, 06:26 AM
You got that right. I mean, if I were driving the project of purple, the first thing I would do is remove all IM protocols with the exception of XMPP and then implement the others as plugins.

But that's the reason why I don't drive the project.
That seems to be more or less what the Pidgin developers are going for: a Firefox-like, highly extensible but very basic IM application.

Any project as popular as Pidgin is going have to ignore a number of popular requests. I understand the frustration that this may cause, but I have absolutely no sympathy for those who believe that the developers are treating users unfairly. The developers have created one of the most popular open source projects ever, and are put in the undesirable position of maintaining such a project. You can't please everyone.

OffHand
January 4th, 2009, 01:17 PM
That seems to be more or less what the Pidgin developers are going for: a Firefox-like, highly extensible but very basic IM application.

Any project as popular as Pidgin is going have to ignore a number of popular requests. I understand the frustration that this may cause, but I have absolutely no sympathy for those who believe that the developers are treating users unfairly. The developers have created one of the most popular open source projects ever, and are put in the undesirable position of maintaining such a project. You can't please everyone.
Well, sometimes devs are treating users unfair or pay little or no attention about what they have to say. The only way to really make an awesome application is listening to your users in my opinion.

Bachstelze
January 4th, 2009, 02:55 PM
If you're unhappy with the Pidgin devs, instead of whining on a forum, take the ******* code and fork it and make your own client, and we'll see if you can do better.

Oh, and Kopete ftw!

ELD
January 4th, 2009, 03:00 PM
While i do use it a lot when i am on Linux i don't agree with many, many of the things that they do for it.

the yawner
January 4th, 2009, 04:25 PM
The only way to really make an awesome application is listening to your users in my opinion.
I'm not so sure about that.

Swarms
January 4th, 2009, 04:58 PM
Empathy should be the future of Ubuntu anyway, let Pidgin rot alone like it deserves...

OffHand
January 4th, 2009, 05:19 PM
If you're unhappy with the Pidgin devs, instead of whining on a forum, take the ******* code and fork it and make your own client, and we'll see if you can do better.

Oh, and Kopete ftw!

Nice (passive) aggressive reply... Basically what you are saying is someone cannot criticize any project but instead should just fork it to show them wrong. Nonsense if you ask me.

plun
January 4th, 2009, 05:28 PM
Empathy should be the future of Ubuntu anyway, let Pidgin rot alone like it deserves...

Well, who knows.... ? presence state is a disaster, IMHO.

I cannot say that Gnomes brainstorming is any better then Pidgins...:) Ubuntus :confused:

But... Nokia maybe can pay a few skilled developers and then its done.

ELD
January 4th, 2009, 05:32 PM
Empathy seemd pretty wierd asking for a password before an email or username and all kinds of crazyness.

Pidgin devs need to listen to there users just a little bit more, but always listning to users is baaaad.

Islington
January 4th, 2009, 05:36 PM
If you're unhappy with the Pidgin devs, instead of whining on a forum, take the ******* code and fork it and make your own client, and we'll see if you can do better.

Oh, and Kopete ftw!

http://funpidgin.sourceforge.net/

some people are doing just that. :o

Vadi
January 4th, 2009, 05:38 PM
[QUOTE=p_quarles;6489500]No, you're simply incorrect. "Open source" means you can take the source and change it how you like it. It does not mean that can demand things from those already working on that code./QUOTE]

Thanks for defining that for me. But you missed the point that you can count it as being more closed then some closed-source projects in terms of user feedback.

You obviously don't implement every single thing the users ask, but at least you listen to them, and implement the good things. They however are clearly bent on making this a project for themselves - it's a pity their website is so misleading :(

(and yes, it is a project for them by them. One dev, one who shut down brainstorm, said so in his blog earlier).

ELD
January 4th, 2009, 05:51 PM
http://funpidgin.sourceforge.net/

some people are doing just that. :o

Yeah but that going isn't doing much because from the looks of it he doesn't really know what he is doing.

exploder
January 4th, 2009, 05:57 PM
I like and use Pidgin. It is meant to be simple and light. Plugins can be added to have more bells and whistles. I am content with the job the developers are doing. I think the Pidgin developers have a vision of how they feel am IM Client should be and that is their focus. Who knows, in the future they may decide to add more features but the current focus seems to be compatibility with the various existing software. I like the simplicity of Pidgin, it does what I need.

p_quarles
January 4th, 2009, 06:03 PM
Well, sometimes devs are treating users unfair or pay little or no attention about what they have to say. The only way to really make an awesome application is listening to your users in my opinion.
So, you have to listen to all of them? Implement every feature asked for, even when people are asking for contradictory things? Again, my point is that once you have a popular application, everyone thinks they know what should be done to "improve" it, but only the developers actually have to write the code.


Thanks for defining that for me. But you missed the point that you can count it as being more closed then some closed-source projects in terms of user feedback.

You obviously don't implement every single thing the users ask, but at least you listen to them, and implement the good things. They however are clearly bent on making this a project for themselves - it's a pity their website is so misleading :(

(and yes, it is a project for them by them. One dev, one who shut down brainstorm, said so in his blog earlier).
Again, the willingness of developers to listen to feedback is absolutely irrelevant to the concept of open source software. Saying that "some proprietary projects are more attentive to their users than Pidgin is" is basically just a non sequitur.

In any event, the project that they claim to be developing only for themselves has turned out to be actually very popular. I don't use it, and you don't seem to like it very much, but apparently there is a good deal of demand for the same thing that the developers seem to want for themselves. Why, then, should they change their core design philosophy? What do the developers get out of actually changing the way they do things to please those who don't like the direction of the project?

Vadi
January 4th, 2009, 06:07 PM
They don't, and they aren't doing that. Doesn't justify the ****** behavior though.

It is, indeed, very unfortunate that the project got so popular. What's even more sad is that right now it's the only decent alternative :|

RiceMonster
January 4th, 2009, 06:32 PM
I never understood why people get so angry with the pigdin developers. So you don't like the way they changed something? Well that's too bad, but that kind of thing happens all the time in software. If I were developing an project like pidgin as well, I wouldn't want to bother sifting through every feature request I get either, because there would be just too much of them.

Oh, and I like the way the textbox is, even though so many people lost their minds in a fit of a rage over it. It's software, calm down.

OffHand
January 4th, 2009, 07:28 PM
So, you have to listen to all of them? Implement every feature asked for, even when people are asking for contradictory things? Again, my point is that once you have a popular application, everyone thinks they know what should be done to "improve" it, but only the developers actually have to write the code.

No, you pick out the ideas that in general a lot if not most people seem to like and/or make it optional in the preferences. If you beforehand already state that you do not want user feedback and/or bug reports you should not release the project to the public.

steeleyuk
January 4th, 2009, 10:10 PM
I think the main problem people have with the Pidgin devs is their attitude to people. Nobody with any sense is asking them to implement every feature and nobody is asking them to take all the advice/suggestions from their users.

Howver, you don't see Ubuntu devs treating their users in the same way. Suggestions that are essentially crap are rejected in a polite way. Same goes for Firefox. OpenOffice. KDE. Debian. You very rarely here of anything like this from any other project.

The Pidgin website has a community page. They allow for discussion on SoC projects and ideas. Their bugtracker allows for enhancements. They give every impression that they allow and want the end-user to provide advice and suggestions yet when it comes down to it... ideas are rejected and users are ignored repeatedly, no matter how good the idea.

Just my small and probably insignificant opinion.

p_quarles
January 4th, 2009, 10:33 PM
No, you pick out the ideas that in general a lot if not most people seem to like and/or make it optional in the preferences. If you beforehand already state that you do not want user feedback and/or bug reports you should not release the project to the public.
Are you seriously saying that if they don't want to implement ideas that you consider good, they should not release the software? I find that attitude incredibly selfish.

In any event, here's what a Pidgin developer has to say about the matter:
http://www.schierer.org/~luke/log/20090103-1804/feedback

From what I can see, this is much ado about nothing. There are some perfectly good reasons for taking down the brainstorm site, one of them being the fact that they can implement voting on feature requests in their bug tracking system, which they are doing.

Keyper7
January 4th, 2009, 11:02 PM
To be fair, the "too much to handle" argument is very understandable. It's important to listen to your users, but a developer must have the patience of a monk to dig through the dirt and find the users who are worthy listening to.

I mean, look at the Ubuntu Brainstorm. It's ridded with:
- users who can't use the search function to avoid posting a dupe;
- users who post over-generic useless "ideas" like "improve hardware support";
- users that doesn't realize that "what I'm used to do in Windows" is not necessarily the correct and necessary way (ex: install Ejecter by default);
- users that doesn't realize when an issue is beyond Canonical's power (the MP3 licensing issues);
- users who post selfish requests like "make the music player I like the default";
- users who think the comments section is a discussion board.

Launchpad is not much better in handling noise. I always see:
- users who can't use the search function to avoid posting a dupe (again);
- users who think the comments section is a discussion board (again, and this is even worse on bug reports than on Brainstorm because it makes the developer's job more difficult);
- users who post a superficial "report" with almost no details and then abandon it, not giving info the developer asks for later;
- users who think that posting "+1 this bug is really annoying please fix it" will make things faster.

I'm not defending the Pidgin developers, but I'm not attacking them either because I don't know the whole story yet. I just want to mention that sometimes the user noise on bug trackers and brainstorms can be so annoying and so far from the point of those tools that sometimes I catch myself wondering if it would be better if all those tools were pre-moderated.

khc
January 4th, 2009, 11:08 PM
Pidgin hasn't even implemented the feature where if someone IM's you the Pidgin box in the task bar blinks to alert you to new messages yet. You have to install the plugins package for Pidgin to get that feature. Which you think would be not only a very in demand feature but also easy to implement. How hard would it be to have a check box in the regular preferences asking you whether or not you want the taskbar to flash when new messages are received?

The "Message Notification" plugin does this and is bundled with the default ubuntu pidgin package, so it's not something else that you have to go install. It's not enabled by default upstream (not every window manager implements this, and some (such as kwin) implements it buggily), but ubuntu can always ship a different set of default preferences since they only target GNOME.

khc
January 4th, 2009, 11:18 PM
Disclaimer, I am a pidgin developer, so I am obviously biased.



... unfortunately, that was all just an illusion. The website improvements are apparently a work of Casey Ho (http://blog.caseyho.com/), same with Brainstorm. The improvements aren't actually endorsed by the developers; even more, they took down brainstorm two days after. Their reason? "too much stuff to follow", as seen in this thread (http://pidgin.im/pipermail/devel/2009-January/007262.html).


Selective quoting. The main reason that it's taken down is that trac already has a "feature request" component, and Daniel got the trac voting plugin working so people can vote on tickets. Would you rather vote in one place or two?



Coupled with the "gtfo off our bugtracker" attitude:

Quote:
For the last time, if you are not a Pidgin developer or patch writer, DO NOT WASTE OUR TIME BY COMMENTING ON THIS TICKET.


Selective and out of context quoting. John (rekkanoryo) does lots of work handling trac tickets and thus he gets an email for every single comment in every single ticket. Every "Me too" ticket wastes his time because after a while they don't add any value at all, and only serve to bury real and useful discussions.



I think for all it's worth you can count Pidgin even more closed-source than some proprietary programs. At least good companies there listen to their users and implement user-requested features at a better rate than Pidgin.


They also get funding and paid employees too.

kaivalagi
January 4th, 2009, 11:38 PM
I use Pidgin pretty much trouble free and have written some simple python scripts that use the dbus interface to produce IM info from it. As such I have approached developers through the #pidgin channel before now with questions and got useful, non-egotistical responses back...unlike some other open source app channels I have approached.

Can we ease off with the negativity please, overall these guys are doing a good job! Yes, you may disagree with some of their decisions, but they are the ones that will make things happen and so should have the final say imho. If there are features you would like to see then why not learn to develop software and join in on their efforts - for free!

delfick
January 5th, 2009, 12:05 AM
If you're unhappy with the Pidgin devs, instead of whining on a forum, take the ******* code and fork it and make your own client, and we'll see if you can do better.

I think the slightly better approach would be, if you're unhappy with the direction of pidgin, "take the ******* code", make changes and post a diff on their bugtracker.

making a fork over small changes is a bad idea.......

OffHand
January 5th, 2009, 12:31 AM
Are you seriously saying that if they don't want to implement ideas that you consider good, they should not release the software? I find that attitude incredibly selfish.


I suggest you read my reply again.

Vadi
January 15th, 2009, 03:17 PM
via http://theflamingbanker.blogspot.com/2009/01/and-survey-says.html


"It is not very easy to install Pidgin on Linux distributions, especially because of dependencies." - This is true of source-based installation of Pidgin for those who don't compile many applications themselves or those new to the world of compiling applications. Pidgin is provided in a pre-packaged, dependency-tracked format by all the major Linux distributions, as well as through the BSD ports system, Fink on Mac OS X, and Macports on Mac OS X. All of these distributors provide an extremely simple way to install Pidgin.

Yeah. Great job at completely ignoring this issue (http://www.ubuntu-pics.de/bild/8412/screenshot_100_266__Qqlnec.png).

3rdalbum
January 15th, 2009, 03:28 PM
Once Meebo has Facebook Chat back again, I'm switching.

Meebo has everything I want and need. I believe they do use some Libpurple code, but the difference is that they have actually implemented the things that people want. For instance, I started using Linux in 2005, and even back then people were asking for Voice And Video support in (then) Gaim. In 2009, there are roughly zero lines of code in Pidgin to provide the infrastructure for doing VV over any networks. Meebo has it, even with the obvious complexity of doing it within a web browser.

Vadi
January 15th, 2009, 04:24 PM
Yeah, meebo is based on some version of libpurple. Interesting though, it seems they didn't release any source code back either.

Polygon
January 16th, 2009, 05:40 AM
I still dont like the pidgin dev's attiude. They refuse to accept and protocol plugins unless THEY write them (read this on a ticket on including the facebook chat plugin into the main pidgin codebase)

taking down brainstorm was a bad idea. They just had a survey to get their user's opinions, yet take down a MUCH better way to gain your users opinions. (brainstorm)

the comments posted on the OP's post about not posting on the bug tracker, again,i just hate their attitude. HATE IT. Its the same way with handbrake. its an open source program, yet the developers are the biggest jerks i ahve ever seen. they openly insult people on their forums and bug trackers, demean them, and act all high and mighty because they are the developers of the program, and everyone else can go to hell. Pidgin devs are like this but no where near as bad, but still could have some attitude adjustments.

point is, sure they arnt doing anything wrong. they can reject all the patches they want, its their program. The source is open, so therefore its still 'open source' , but that doesn't chance that their attitude is nothing to be proud of. There is a reason why big companies have PR divisions, so people dont get the idea that the companies think the end users are idiots (which they probably do), but in OSS programs, the development is much more open, and we see the developers attitudes. And it really just puts me off to ask a question on a forum and have a developer basically tell me to **** and read the wiki, when the answer isnt even in the wiki anyway.

[/end rant]

p_quarles
January 16th, 2009, 05:47 AM
Well, I still think most of this is pretty unfair to the developers in question. I mean, managing a flagship F/LOSS application means no shortage of difficult decisions, and they seem to have done a remarkably good job of it. I mean, the bottom line is that you just can't do everything everyone wants you to do.

But, anyway, what do people think of Kopete? I prefer it, but my usage is fairly straightforward as well. Have people tried it? Why is it not preferable to lamenting the recalcitrance of Pidgin's authors?

khc
January 16th, 2009, 06:20 AM
I still dont like the pidgin dev's attiude. They refuse to accept and protocol plugins unless THEY write them (read this on a ticket on including the facebook chat plugin into the main pidgin codebase)


I am assuming you are referring to http://developer.pidgin.im/ticket/6763

As far as I know, the plugin wasn't written by one of the developers is just one of the reasons. Initially it was also of poor quality. I see 8 bugs (6 of them crashes, 1 of them caused the user's facebook account deactivated) that directly reference facebook in the subject, and that's not including bugs that just say "pidgin crashed" that we later on figured out it's facebook's fault, or people who come into #pidgin having problems.

One of us (Mark, who works at Meebo) actually did a round of bugfixing on the plugin, and then proposed to include it. Some developers at the time thought that the technique used by the plugin (basically faking a browser and doing AJAX requests at the website) was too much of a hack, and since facebook can change things any time (which will cause no problem for their regular users since every time they go to the website they essentially download the full client again), couple with the fact that they promised to have a xmpp interface, not including the plugin was a reasonable decision.

Some of the protocol plugins that are/were distributed by pidgin suffered when their developers decide to disappear (napster, myspace, gadu-gadu, and for a while, qq), so finding someone who we trust will continue to maintain the plugin is no doubt an important factor when we decide whether to accept it or not.

But it's not the only factor.

kevdog
January 16th, 2009, 06:32 AM
I'm no developer nor pretend to be one, but I've asked a few questions on the #pidgin channel and surprisingly got quick, very informed, and non-demeaning responses (no RTFM)!. So although I would like to see some additinal features to pidgin as well, I'm not going to complain about them. If you don't like the software, use something else. Its basically that simple. If they choose to ignore user input, then what are the repercussions?

shatteredmindofbob
January 16th, 2009, 10:15 AM
Count me even more disappointed with the, pardon the wording, ****** attitude of Pidgin developers. As soon as Empathy is on par with features I need, I'm dumping Pidgin for good. Go choice.

I'm waiting on the Linux port of Digsby...that's been promised for like...a year...

deepclutch
January 16th, 2009, 11:15 AM
Empathy should be the future of Ubuntu anyway, let Pidgin rot alone like it deserves...

Empathy is what I currently use.it is never a finished product/something reliable.I have to tinker with pulse audio to make it's VOIP/Gtalk feature work :( .still ,better than pidgin.
--
and How is Kopete for VOIP?Is it workable?

Polygon
January 16th, 2009, 11:24 PM
I'm waiting on the Linux port of Digsby...that's been promised for like...a year...

digsby is terrible. closed source python (how the hell do they pull that off?), ALL of your contact information including passwords are stored on their servers, bringing about major privacy issues, it really has nothing that other clients dont already have (with plugins as of right now), it tries to install a bunch of crap on your computer on install, and i hear it runs some distributed computing program in the background by default unless you disable it within a maze of menus

anyway, back on topic =)

and KHC, obviously there was a lot more to you guys not including the plugin then i thought, but still, having exactly what you said posted on that ticket rather then 'we have no desire of including plugins we did not write" which sounds like an incredibly rude answer to me (even if its not) and gives almost no background information. I could of lived if you said 'yeah its a really kinda ugly hack to get facebook chat working, cause of this blah blah blah, only one developer really knows how it works, etc etc". Im interested in this sort of thing, so background information to decisions is always good =)

khc
January 17th, 2009, 07:30 AM
and KHC, obviously there was a lot more to you guys not including the plugin then i thought, but still, having exactly what you said posted on that ticket rather then 'we have no desire of including plugins we did not write" which sounds like an incredibly rude answer to me (even if its not) and gives almost no background information. I could of lived if you said 'yeah its a really kinda ugly hack to get facebook chat working, cause of this blah blah blah, only one developer really knows how it works, etc etc". Im interested in this sort of thing, so background information to decisions is always good =)

We only have one guy who regularly clean up the tickets (make sure bugs are in the right category, etc), so it's not really possible for him to write a detailed answer every single time.

sr55
January 21st, 2009, 07:17 PM
Polygon - Don't group all developers of a project as one. There are some outstanding guys working on the HB project who have never said anything even remotely bad to a user. I don't personally know the guys working on the pidgin project, however I suspect at least a few of them, are nice folks.

Different folks deal with users in different ways. Some shout at folk, some ignore, some are nice. When you consider the amount of time folks waste, it's no surprise that people become bitter over time.

b3n87
January 21st, 2009, 07:34 PM
I read in a Linux magazine that something wrote into; they said they went onto the IRC channel of Pidgin to ask for help with connecting to the MSN network, a Pidgin dev told him to get new friends that use an open platform.

Eisenwinter
January 21st, 2009, 08:38 PM
They don't, and they aren't doing that. Doesn't justify the ****** behavior though.

It is, indeed, very unfortunate that the project got so popular. What's even more sad is that right now it's the only decent alternative :|
Make your own.

Seriously.

evilkastel
January 21st, 2009, 09:42 PM
Call it tuff love. Beacuse, i i were a developer with an open service for *developing* and people just drop by and DEMMAND things (as they do) I'll get sick and tired. People get mad just because the "you absolutely MUST include video support in the next release" is not taken seriously. growup. Pidgin is DA BEST IM app there for GNU/Linux, and there is plenty support *without* bottering the developers. they got more in their heads than resolving trivial stuff. Ask around, they never treat badly people with genuine bugreports or patches... is the user abuse what makes the developers so unsociable. So, you might fovus on the bright side.

kaivalagi
January 21st, 2009, 10:46 PM
Call it tuff love. Beacuse, i i were a developer with an open service for *developing* and people just drop by and DEMMAND things (as they do) I'll get sick and tired. People get mad just because the "you absolutely MUST include video support in the next release" is not taken seriously. growup. Pidgin is DA BEST IM app there for GNU/Linux, and there is plenty support *without* bottering the developers. they got more in their heads than resolving trivial stuff. Ask around, they never treat badly people with genuine bugreports or patches... is the user abuse what makes the developers so unsociable. So, you might fovus on the bright side.

+1

Give the devs some slack...............

Vadi
January 21st, 2009, 10:53 PM
I don't think you actually even interacted them, hence your ***-umption of demands.

It's more like a feature request and you get told with a "gtfo". See above on them telling people to uh change friends because they use the 'wrong' type of IM network.

SunnyRabbiera
January 21st, 2009, 11:06 PM
Empathy is what I currently use.it is never a finished product/something reliable.I have to tinker with pulse audio to make it's VOIP/Gtalk feature work :( .still ,better than pidgin.
--
and How is Kopete for VOIP?Is it workable?

Emapthy is still a fresh product, but there are many that say it will replace pidgin if this stuff with pidgin keeps up.

agurk
January 22nd, 2009, 01:08 AM
"...if this stuff with Pidgin keeps up."

You mean the attracting of hoards of clueless, demanding, mannerless teens with facebook accounts and webcams, sucking the joy out of producing free software?
I already pity the Empathy developers.

RiceMonster
January 22nd, 2009, 01:13 AM
It's more like a feature request and you get told with a "gtfo". See above on them telling people to uh change friends because they use the 'wrong' type of IM network.

Show me an example of someone being told to "gtfo" because so far, this really just seems like all talk. Oh, and just because someone apparently "read it in a Linux magazine" doesn't mean anything.

Stu09
January 22nd, 2009, 01:45 AM
I read in a Linux magazine that something wrote into; they said they went onto the IRC channel of Pidgin to ask for help with connecting to the MSN network, a Pidgin dev told him to get new friends that use an open platform.


That's funny :)

SomeGuyDude
January 22nd, 2009, 01:46 AM
I'd check out Empathy if it didn't, y'know, REQUIRE GNOME. I need a GTK IM client that isn't dependant on 140MB of GNOME crap, and so I'm sticking with Pidgin.

Polygon
January 22nd, 2009, 02:50 AM
"...if this stuff with Pidgin keeps up."

You mean the attracting of hoards of clueless, demanding, mannerless teens with facebook accounts and webcams, sucking the joy out of producing free software?


and having good natured people who respect their programs and what they do, and ask honest questions and get caught in the cross fire, which just pisses more people off and makes the said person not want to participate in its development or even use the program.

myusername
January 22nd, 2009, 08:29 AM
honestly they're doing it for free. you do not have to pay. who cares what they're personality is like? would you rather them stop development for a year to see a therapist?

kaivalagi
January 22nd, 2009, 09:23 AM
honestly they're doing it for free. you do not have to pay. who cares what they're personality is like? would you rather them stop development for a year to see a therapist?

lol

I think it would be better for the complaining users to go see a therapist, to get over it...

Christmas
January 22nd, 2009, 10:40 AM
Unfortunately the exact same thing happens with many many other open-source projects. They are either designed in a bad manner, and the lack of interest from developers is obvious (I won't mention which ones though). And I'm not talking about GNOME here. Also, bugs just don't get fixed in some application, although there are many reports for the same bug. Sad thing is, open-source should be about fixing these things since they are out in the wild. On the other hand, developers have the right on their own project, and nobody is stopped to start a fork and release its own version of the software (although that wouldn't be included in GNOME, but at least users of these applications would have an alternative of the same application, but with the necessary modifications.

Vadi
January 22nd, 2009, 02:34 PM
Show me an example of someone being told to "gtfo" because so far, this really just seems like all talk. Oh, and just because someone apparently "read it in a Linux magazine" doesn't mean anything.

Apparently #pidgin is unlogged. But you know, things like this just don't come out of the blue and everyone decides to take them up.

khc
January 23rd, 2009, 08:52 AM
Sad thing is, open-source should be about fixing these things since they are out in the wild.

I don't know if you actually work on open source projects or not, but personally I do it for fun. If it's fun, I do it, if it's not, I don't.

It's easy for random Joe to claim to know what open source is supposed to be, but honestly, what you say doesn't matter to me.

Paqman
January 23rd, 2009, 09:59 AM
Everything that happens in Pidgin will always need to be filtered
through the developers first before anything changes. We are in charge
of the project. This just misleads users as to what level of impact
they have on things.

What's wrong with this? How else would you manage a project? Somebody has to be responsible for making decisions. Users should be able to give feedback, but at the end of the day that's all it is.

SeanHodges
January 23rd, 2009, 10:59 AM
I think for all it's worth you can count Pidgin even more closed-source than some proprietary programs. At least good companies there listen to their users and implement user-requested features at a better rate than Pidgin.

Count me even more disappointed with the, pardon the wording, ****** attitude of Pidgin developers. As soon as Empathy is on par with features I need, I'm dumping Pidgin for good. Go choice.

Personally, I really like Pidgin. It works well, does what I want, and is simple whilst remaining usable.

I use Pidgin at work, Kopete at home, and both work for me in the environment I need them.

If I have a suggestion for the Pidgin developers, I post it up on THEIR PREFERRED support channels (bug tracker and mailing lists, provided on website) and I accept their decision on the matter, as the people who want the best for the project.

If I really need these changes implemented, I would arrange for them to be done, either by patching the source code myself, or offer a donation to the developers in the Pidgin/Ubuntu community to get it done. I can then use my modified version of Pidgin, and even offer it out to others legally. THAT is open-source. Not always allowing people to impose design decisions on your project; but allowing them to OFFER SUGGESTIONS, and if rejected, being allowed FORK and DO IT YOURSELF.

What I would never do, is whine on forums about how the developers of a project would not accept someones new brainstorm site as a de-facto project management tool. If you feel strongly about it, fork Pidgin and start a new project called "Pidgin-Brainstorm" or something. Take the ideas from the brainstorm site, get them implemented, and offer it out as an alternative.

Above all, play nicely with the official developers, as some of your work might get merged into the official project, or some of them may jump across to your fork if it is popular enough.

Christmas
January 23rd, 2009, 11:12 AM
I don't know if you actually work on open source projects or not, but personally I do it for fun. If it's fun, I do it, if it's not, I don't.

It's easy for random Joe to claim to know what open source is supposed to be, but honestly, what you say doesn't matter to me.

I get your point but I think that you misunderstood. What I was trying to say is that open-source is all about getting feedback from people since the code is available and bugs are easy to track. Now nobody expects from a very small project with one or two developers to follow the users' requests. They are free to develop it in whatever way they want, for fun if you like. But GNOME is not a small project, and it's used by millions.