Body Image and Jiggle Technology

[towsonu2003]

After reading the article, I thought this Slashdot ( http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/09/160241&from=rss ) item described the article nice enough:
""The GamerGirl team over at Gamergod.com has an interesting article delving into a male driven industry. This time the subject of discussion is the sometimes overzealous portrayal of women in games." A well-considered piece, with thoughtful references to the works of Camille Paglia and Naomi Wolf. From the article: "He also highlights several games that, instead of focusing on the female form in its big-breasted glory, showcase women who are intelligent, strong, and powerful. He insists, 'The protagonists highlighted above illustrate that plenty of excitement can be provided by female leads who will, in turn, bring in female gamers - not to speak of richer gameplay options. Additionally, as McIntosh says, most women gamers are "confident enough not to feel threatened" by sexist imagery, merely finding it annoying and disappointing.'"

The article itself is here: http://www.gamergod.com/article.php?article_id=3047

After reading the article, I felt there was not enough investigation of current popular pc/video games and the role of women's bodies in there... I am pretty sure there are a couple of hardcore game-geeks around here... What do you/they think about this?

[mistic]

Well to be honest I'm quite a fan of video-games :-) I've been playing them since I was 7 (23 now).

Well the whole "women in games" and "women gaming" thing is kind of a strange deal. I think that women who play games (appart from being unbelievably attractive relation-wise) don't really mind the image portraied in recent videogames as said in the article. The image of women in video-games has become a lot better in the last couple of years, from being 'the captured princess' to really being the main character, even though a lot of times they are kind of 'objectified'. The same is true for us though, how many times do you see a regular guy ( or even one looking like a 'gamer' )? Almost never!

So basicly, both of us are faced with the same problem, we're both playing with a character that doesn't look like us and is even a unrealistic unatainable ideal for most of us...

So both men and women have the same 'problem' and yet to me it seams the only persons having a REAL problem with it are 'scientists' ( "I'm investigating Nuclear Fusion,what are you doing?" "Well I'm looking for women who feel objectified by games..." "Ah yes...well I think I've gotta go now..." ) :D I don't think women don't play because of the way a certain character looks, I think that women who don't play games are just generally not intrested in gaming... There might be women who feel like that, but i *hope* that its a minority ;-)

grts
mistic

[aysiu]

I don't think women don't play because of the way a certain character looks, I think that women who don't play games are just generally not intrested in gaming... There might be women who feel like that, but i *hope* that its a minority ;-) Why are the two mutually exclusive? You make it sound as if there are only two kinds of women:

1. women who game and don't mind the portrayal of women in games
2. women who don't game and do mind the portrayal of women in games

My wife happens to be a gamer who does mind the portrayal of women in games (with a few exceptions). She doesn't raise a big stink about it (she jokes about it, mainly, as she's not someone who's easily upset), but she definitely would be for more of the strong, independent, semi-realistic types and fewer of the big-breasted, scantily clad, ditzy types.

[poptones]

And fat guys.

We need more fat guys scaling buildings and kickboxing zombies.

[claydoh]

I can only do that in my spare time :), plus as my follicles fall out, I am slowly loosing my Super Strength :D

[poptones]

I'm fortunate to no longer be losing hair (I had a bout of this in my late twenties but it didn't really do much damage). The downside to this is I now have to watch my beard turn grey knowing the rest is soon to follow.

My super strength now comes in a bottle from Clairol.

[mistic]

Why are the two mutually exclusive? You make it sound as if there are only two kinds of women:

1. women who game and don't mind the portrayal of women in games
2. women who don't game and do mind the portrayal of women in games

My wife happens to be a gamer who does mind the portrayal of women in games (with a few exceptions). She doesn't raise a big stink about it (she jokes about it, mainly, as she's not someone who's easily upset), but she definitely would be for more of the strong, independent, semi-realistic types and fewer of the big-breasted, scantily clad, ditzy types.

Well I did actually mean there are (in this area) two kind of women:
1. those who play games
2. those who don't

but what I meant with my saying was that I don't think that generally women of 'type 2' are a part of the 'type 2' group because they feel that they are being objectified, I _think_ it's mostly because the ones from 'type 2' are just not interested in games...

grts
mistic

[aysiu]

but what I meant with my saying was that I don't think that generally women of 'type 2' are a part of the 'type 2' group because they feel that they are being objectified, I _think_ it's mostly because the ones from 'type 2' are just not interested in games.. I'll agree to that. The objectification of women in games is not (as far as I know) the primary reason women who don't game... don't game. Yes.

[Double A Ron]

Though I agree that there are limits to good taste. It's true that it's not only women who are portrayed in such an "idealistic" (lack of better term) manner.

Female characters are often 36-24-36 figures, it's true. But on the flip-side, how many archetypical 98Lb weakling male characters do you see as being the hero of a game. Not many, I tell you.

Again, Superfluous TnA are too often the main selling points in videogames but so is gratuitous violence and crappy (MTV TYPE) licenses. It's all about sales unfortunately and if sex stops selling so well then companies will stop using it. Though companies ARE still solely responsible for their actions. People are obviously buying the product and that's not incentive to stop doing it. Unless the comsumer base changes their attitude, I'm afraid this fact won't change...short of dictatorial action, and we don't want that...

[aysiu]

Female characters are often 36-24-36 figures, it's true. But on the flip-side, how many archetypical 98Lb weakling male characters do you see as being the hero of a game. Not many, I tell you. Except that women tend to find those female characters demeaning, while the men don't find the overly muscular ones as demeaning.

[geekchic9]

Except that women tend to find those female characters demeaning, while the men don't find the overly muscular ones as demeaning.

Exactly. The two aren't really compatible.

I remember that my boyfriend once described to me a game where there was an "Age" setting. The older you were (or really, the higher the setting) the more the women's breasts jiggled in the game. :(

And once, when I played "Perfect Dark", I chose not to follow my boss to his office at the beginning of the game, and because I didn't make that choice, all the male nonplayer characters started making graphic gestures about how they wanted to get in bed with me. Not fun. :???:

And men wonder why there aren't more female gamers.

[BSDFreak]

Exactly. The two aren't really compatible.

I assume you meant to write comparable? Why are they not comparable?

Both women and men appreciate well proportioned bodies of the opposite sex.

I seriously doubt that women stay away from games because their characters have muscular well proportioned bodies.

[geekchic9]

Yes, I meant comparable.



I seriously doubt that women stay away from games because their characters have muscular well proportioned bodies.

I assume when you say "muscular well proportioned", you mean unrealistically proportioned to satisfy some fanboys' fantasies? Seriously. Very few women look like the women in video games, even with plastic surgery, perfect makeup, exercise, etc. It makes many women feel bad about themselves because some people hold them to such a ridiculous standard.

Men, on the other hand, seem to revel in their video game counterparts. Not only are they muscular and handsome, they get to rescue the girl with enormous breasts!

And by the way, we're also talking about the physics of giant jiggling breasts. Come on. It's a big turnoff for me, and I know I'm not alone.

[nocturn]

Both women and men appreciate well proportioned bodies of the opposite sex.


Well proportioned is another thing. If you were to create figures like Lara Croft for real, they would not be able to walk because of the oversized proportions...

I do think that women are objectified in a lot of games. The characters are there, not to be used as alter egos for the female gamers, but as a turn on for the male players... sorry to be so blunt.

[Sef]

The characters are there, not to be used as alter egos for the female gamers, but as a turn on for the male players... sorry to be so blunt.

No need to be sorry. I agree with you 100%. Too often female characters are fantasies of what some guys think a women should be instead of is. Even male characters today are often fantasy instead of being based on reality. I prefer characters that are based on reality and not fantasy: makes the game seem more authentic.

[BSDFreak]

Yes, I meant comparable.



I assume when you say "muscular well proportioned", you mean unrealistically proportioned to satisfy some fanboys' fantasies? Seriously. Very few women look like the women in video games, even with plastic surgery, perfect makeup, exercise, etc. It makes many women feel bad about themselves because some people hold them to such a ridiculous standard.

No, i mean muscular, well proportioned, when i'm not competing i work as a personal trainer, i'm talking about the kind of muscular, well proportioned bodies of fitness and bodybuilding athletes (natural).

People are attracted to ideals that the overwhelming majority of people cannot live up to, this is reality, it goes for both men and women. That some feel bad about this reality doesn't change it and perceptions are going to be the same whether we like it or not.


Men, on the other hand, seem to revel in their video game counterparts. Not only are they muscular and handsome, they get to rescue the girl with enormous breasts!

Ok, so that all men (the good guys at least) are handsome and muscular isn't a ridiculous standard but that the women are great looking and well proportiond is? If the skinny geeks aren't going to feel bad about themselves when they see this story about how only the muscular handsome guys get the pretty girls then i don't know why the women should feel bad about the well proportioned (or should i say sexy) girls.


And by the way, we're also talking about the physics of giant jiggling breasts. Come on. It's a big turnoff for me, and I know I'm not alone.

I find it humouristic if anything, i don't get turned on or off by video games or mere appearances anymore.

[BSDFreak]

Well proportioned is another thing. If you were to create figures like Lara Croft for real, they would not be able to walk because of the oversized proportions...

I'm willing to bet anything that there are more women with ***** her size out there than there are women that do what she does in the game.

Point being... It's a game, everything is exaggerated. ;)


I do think that women are objectified in a lot of games. The characters are there, not to be used as alter egos for the female gamers, but as a turn on for the male players... sorry to be so blunt.

If anyone is turned on by the characters in a video game they seriously need to shut down their computer for good.

The thing is, in the video games both the male and the female characters are created after an ideal, it's always been that way regardless of if it's a movie character or whatever.

While i may agree that some ideals are exaggerated i rely on physical exaggeration for an income. ;)

[aysiu]

The thing is, in the video games both the male and the female characters are created after an ideal Yes, heterosexual men's ideals.

[BSDFreak]

Yes, heterosexual men's ideals.

Heterosexual men and heterosexual women and homosexual men and homosexual women.

Think about it, don't they all appreciate either handsome muscular men or sexy well proportioned women?

geekchic9 seems to have noticed the handsome muscular men in games at least. ;)

[towsonu2003]

Heterosexual men and heterosexual women and homosexual men and homosexual women.
Think about it, don't they all appreciate either handsome muscular men or sexy well proportioned women?

well proportioned to whom? to the barbie/Croft makers (where a real one would just break her neck or back just by standing)? and muscular to whom? my girlfriend says I'm a little muscular, but to me I'm just overweight (fast food) and wouldn't be interested with myself at all...

I think a good element in this discussion is to recognize the power relations between genders and sexual orientations (as well as between nations and races ->to come)... We have a patriarchal society which is not only heterosexist but also greatly homophobic. Hence, there is just no possibility that the tastes of these clashing groups can be common. But yes, they can be and are being made common (by those who hold power against those who don't)...

This is similar to Middle Eastern countries' men (I'm from one) mostly favoring blond pale/white women (which rarely exist locally, but 'made' the favorite by cultural imperialism). At the end, the global preference is almost the same, but it points to who's overpowering who...

PS. I hope these comments won't result in this thread going to the backyard...

[curuxz]

To be fair tho, women may be made to look steriotypical, but esp in the RPG games they are always so much better than the male players. It seems developers fall in love with their creations :S and give them way better stats than the male ones in the games.

Dont believe me, then guys try playing as a girl character in a game and see just how much easyer it is!

[nocturn]

The fact remains that the game developers and games form a community which is not particularly accepting of women to say the least.

Computers have this in general (favouring white, heterosexual males), but I hope the Linux ans specificly Ubuntu communities can be different.

[BSDFreak]

well proportioned to whom? to the barbie/Croft makers (where a real one would just break her neck or back just by standing)? and muscular to whom? my girlfriend says I'm a little muscular, but to me I'm just overweight (fast food) and wouldn't be interested with myself at all...

It's exaggerated, sure it is, but it's a game, it's not real life, EVERYTHING is exaggerated. I'm a professional bodybuilder, everything in my line of work deals with exaggerated body ideals, maybe that is why i don't see this as a big problem.


I think a good element in this discussion is to recognize the power relations between genders and sexual orientations (as well as between nations and races ->to come)... We have a patriarchal society which is not only heterosexist but also greatly homophobic. Hence, there is just no possibility that the tastes of these clashing groups can be common. But yes, they can be and are being made common (by those who hold power against those who don't)...

Well, where i come from the churches HAVE TO bless a partnership between homosexuals should the homosexuals want that. The entire laws regarding marriage are changing in most of the world. Homophobia is on the way out which is interpreted by religious groups as discriminating against them, you can't win this debate regardless of which side you're on.

Are we all attracted to the same things? Generally, no we're not, there are some things that the majority of us find attractive in the opposite sex, it's far more complicated than what we have been told is beautiful, three things that the majority find attractive in women are: Breasts (smaller or bigger, the taste regarding size differs), hip to waist ratio, and a healthy look (not overweight, not too skinny, muscular but not overly so). Look at those things and realize that all three have to do with instincts, the first two have to do with the difference between men and women, all three have to do with procreation. The male preferences are based on our instincts. Then there will forever be cultural differences like hair color and so on but i doubt that matters to this discussion.


This is similar to Middle Eastern countries' men (I'm from one) mostly favoring blond pale/white women (which rarely exist locally, but 'made' the favorite by cultural imperialism). At the end, the global preference is almost the same, but it points to who's overpowering who...

Well the real aryans came from Persia so... ;) So let's see here, the preference in wome tells us who's overpowering who? you'll need to expand on this because i don't get it.


PS. I hope these comments won't result in this thread going to the backyard...

Why should it, i think this is a healthy debate without flaming and it's not all that off topic yet. :)

[BSDFreak]

The fact remains that the game developers and games form a community which is not particularly accepting of women to say the least.

Ok, hit me with examples of discrimination then.


Computers have this in general (favouring white, heterosexual males), but I hope the Linux ans specificly Ubuntu communities can be different.

Computers are favoring white, heterosexual males? Or the computer industry is? I'd say you are wrong, the computer industry is favoring customers/users regardless of sex, race or even age (which you forgot to bring up).

I find that women and men have different interests by nature and if you look at how women use the net that seems to be true, thats' why i don't buy that the computer industry is favoring white heterosexual males.

facts regarding women and the internet (http://www.pewinternet.org/pdfs/PIP_Women_and_Men_online.pdf)

[towsonu2003]

Ok, hit me with examples of discrimination then.

http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/370000/360921/p416-weber.pdf?key1=360921&key2=7452967311&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=62876199&CFTOKEN=10454164
is "Employment of Women in the Computer Industry" from Rutgers U
PS. I only read conclusion. did not inverstigate methodology.



Computers are favoring white, heterosexual males? Or the computer industry is?
* Race, Concentrated Poverty and the Digital Divide. By: Mossberger, Karen; Tolbert, Caroline J.; Gilbert, Michele. Conference Papers -- Midwestern Political Science Association, 2005 Annual Meeting, Chicago, IL, p1-44
* http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/19/2226256 on IT hiring practices & racism, but not too relevant I suppose. The comments will give you an idea how subtle racism and sexism exits in the IT industry and how those who actually discriminate legitimize their views and acts.
* Also, what is the difference in wage of an American HP costumer service representative and an Indian HP costumer service representative? No need to think: if the second was higher, it would be outsourced from India to US.
* Not gonna even try to look for a link to sexual orientation and discrimination. that would be absurd bc. it is just so obvious (but still, underresearched).


I'd say you are wrong, the computer industry is favoring customers/users regardless of sex, race or even age (which you forgot to bring up).
yes, agism is something I keep forgetting as I age... sorry for that.
in the meantime, unfortunately, no industry will care about users but only about its profit. Otherwise, we would be using a "do no evil" microsoft. here comes capitalism into the discussion :P



I find that women and men have different interests by nature and if you look at how women use the net that seems to be true, thats' why i don't buy that the computer industry is favoring white heterosexual males.
I think different interests point to different socialization on the basis of gender and race (in US) or ethnicity (in other places). And different socialization customs usually point to power differences (again) between groups.


At the end, the global preference is almost the same, but it points to who's overpowering who...
clarifying myself as per:

tells us who's overpowering who? you'll need to expand on this because i don't get it.
the pale blond woman (the norm-al sexual object of the American white heterosexual man) has become the norm for too many nations, pointing to the fact that the norm of a group (American white heterosexual man) is trespassing national boundaries (cultural imperialism) to impose its own to other comparable groups (i.e. the dominant groups -men- of the "imperial-ized" nation).

This was a metaphor as in:
1. "there is just no possibility that the tastes of these clashing groups can be common"
2. A norm is being imposed
thus
3. "tastes can be and are being made common"
so

Think about it, don't they all appreciate either handsome muscular men or sexy well proportioned women? even if they do, that would be irrelevant due to above argument...


facts regarding women and the internet (http://www.pewinternet.org/pdfs/PIP_Women_and_Men_online.pdf)
Understandably, I won't have time to read, let alone examine a 54 page research ;) But still, this is about internet communication habits while the general issue was the relation of the depiction of women in computer games to sexism in the computer industry & computer users? (which, by the way, seems to be lost in my own post as well, as I go more and more into general issues such as imperialism, capitalism, racism, and patriarchy)

[BSDFreak]

http://delivery.acm.org/10.1145/370000/360921/p416-weber.pdf?key1=360921&key2=7452967311&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=62876199&CFTOKEN=10454164
is "Employment of Women in the Computer Industry" from Rutgers U
PS. I only read conclusion. did not inverstigate methodology.

I can't get to that without a login and password. It's from 1975 so i'd say it's a tad outdated.



* Race, Concentrated Poverty and the Digital Divide. By: Mossberger, Karen; Tolbert, Caroline J.; Gilbert, Michele. Conference Papers -- Midwestern Political Science Association, 2005 Annual Meeting, Chicago, IL, p1-44
* http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/01/19/2226256 on IT hiring practices & racism, but not too relevant I suppose. The comments will give you an idea how subtle racism and sexism exits in the IT industry and how those who actually discriminate legitimize their views and acts.
* Also, what is the difference in wage of an American HP costumer service representative and an Indian HP costumer service representative? No need to think: if the second was higher, it would be outsourced from India to US.
* Not gonna even try to look for a link to sexual orientation and discrimination. that would be absurd bc. it is just so obvious (but still, underresearched).

You fail to show anything with that, it's either completely irrelevant to this topic or just assumptions.


yes, agism is something I keep forgetting as I age... sorry for that.
in the meantime, unfortunately, no industry will care about users but only about its profit. Otherwise, we would be using a "do no evil" microsoft. here comes capitalism into the discussion :P

If the industry does not cater to it's users then the industry will die. It IS about giving your users what they want because if they don't want it you won't sell it and there is no profit in that. Capitalism doesn't work without a market, the market are the users.



I think different interests point to different socialization on the basis of gender and race (in US) or ethnicity (in other places). And different socialization customs usually point to power differences (again) between groups.

I find it rather laughable that you excluded the US from differences in socialization on the basis of ethnicity, i'd say its as relevant or more relevant than in other places with the possible exception being ME/Asia.



the pale blond woman (the norm-al sexual object of the American white heterosexual man)

Ok, let's stop right there, blond and pale? I'd say that is highly individual and such a generalization fails instantly. Have you got any data to back this up? Blond vs brunette vs redhead? Pale vs tan? Since when do Americans desire women with typical scandinavian features? I thought Asians was the new "big thing"?


has become the norm for too many nations

Says who? Who is the one that gets to decide who should find what attractive? You? I do believe most men are quite capable of determining their preferences all by themselves. I know i have preferences that some share while others do not.


pointing to the fact that the norm of a group (American white heterosexual man) is trespassing national boundaries (cultural imperialism) to impose its own to other comparable groups (i.e. the dominant groups -men- of the "imperial-ized" nation).

Since you are wrong in your first assumption the rest of the argument falls flat with it.


This was a metaphor as in:
1. "there is just no possibility that the tastes of these clashing groups can be common"
2. A norm is being imposed
thus
3. "tastes can be and are being made common"
so
even if they do, that would be irrelevant due to above argument...

1. which is why it isn't
2. see 1
3. see 2



Understandably, I won't have time to read, let alone examine a 54 page research ;) But still, this is about internet communication habits while the general issue was the relation of the depiction of women in computer games to sexism in the computer industry & computer users? (which, by the way, seems to be lost in my own post as well, as I go more and more into general issues such as imperialism, capitalism, racism, and patriarchy)

We were going off topic anyway, the subject is the depiction of women in computergames.

The point is that a larger percentage of women than men have access to the net and use that access more frequently.

As a final note, women in computer games are rarely blonde. ;)