The president elect

[Runaway1956]

The president elect, in his weekly statement to the nation, has promised to put more computers in schools, among other things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGpIT2bVZDw&eurl=http://www.thenation.com/blogs/jstreet/388384/consider_me_stimulated?rel=sidebox&feature=player_embedded
I visited his contact site, to send him a few lines.
http://www.youtube.com/inbox?to_users=ChangeDotGov&action_compose=1
Please, every American who understands the benefits of Open Source should send him a message, to tell him of the virtues of Open Source. I need not list them for you - I won't give you a prepared form or any such thing. You are USING open source, you KNOW the benefits!!

Try to convince him, and his advisors, that students who study Microsoft operating systems and Microsoft office systems are NOT getting a complete education. My own college age son, who is studying "computer science", is only learning what Microsoft deems appropriate for "consumers" to learn. In effect, he learns how to jump through hoops to make a computer happy. My high school aged son, on the other hand, is studying and learning open source at home, and he makes computers jump through hoops for HIM.

If Obama is going to spend hundreds of millions, or even billions, on modernizing the internet, education, and more, then he needs to pave the way for ALTERNATIVES to Microsoft! As a security model alone, Microsoft systems are a complete failure. Corporate America has lost BILLIONS of dollars to exploits which will not run on Linux or other open source systems!

Please - if you love computing, help to put Obama on the right track!!

Runaway1956

[pitchdiesel]

Hmm.. he's always talking about making programs more cost effective and better, this would be an awesome jump in that direction. Hopefully he has someone close to him who is hip to the future! I'll be writing him too...

[barisurum]

Why would a president want to ruin one of the best enterprises his country has like microsoft? After all it is microsoft that earns USA billions of dollars as cash and taxes. It is pointless.
I live in Turkey and the government is about to start a program to make government computers use pardus (local linux distro) and am very happy about this because it will let the gov. save those billions that fly to US and use them on better projects as health care or education.

[p_quarles]

Political discussion is only allowed here insofar as it is related to open source/technology issues. Please stay on this narrow topic, be respectful of one another, and leave your overall political opinions out of this discussion.

I could very easily justify closing this, so consider this a courtesy. Mis-steps won't be looked upon kindly.

[mips]

This is going to go nowhere quickly... Soon you are going to see Republican vs Democrat arguments.

[jimi_hendrix]

i say we just scrap computer class in general and start again...this time you are not aloud to teach any office product (of any type)...so you learn about the computer...not formatting paragraphs

[pp.]

i say we just scrap computer class in general and start again...this time you are not aloud to teach any office product (of any type)...so you learn about the computer...not formatting paragraphs

If we're not to teach aloud, do we teach silently? Or are paragraphs about spelling ok while those about formatting are not to be mentioned?

[perlluver]

It would be a really good Idea to put Open source software in the schools and colleges. It seems like if you can learn to use Linux well, you can almost use any other OS out there without to much difficulty.

[sunoccard]

if america is going to put a PC in every school it would be a magnificent, i recently wrote a report on linux for my 11th grade graduation paper, in it i wrote about the Indiana access program, which is getting every high school student a PC, most of which have linux for cost effective reasons, if obama wishes to put a pc in front of every kid he will have to face the fact that microsoft is not an option, do the math on this one, i have 2500 kids at my school, so that would mean 2500 PCs. running Microsoft on all of them would cost at least 250 thousand, and that's only the licenses, it still doesn't account for the hardware itself, and that's only at one school!

[CholericKoala]

Microsoft gives my school free licenses

[sunoccard]

Microsoft gives my school free licenses

why? they've made such a big deal at my school for using it without licenses, well at least in my comp. classes, but free licenses? i want to say that's not true, but i don't go to your school

[ghantoos]

I don't know if you heard about this.

Change.gov (http://change.gov/), the website of US president-elect Barack Obama’s transition team, has undergone some important and exciting changes over the past few days. Among them is the site’s new copyright notice (http://change.gov/about/copyright_policy), which expresses that the bulk of Change.gov is published under the most permissive of Creative Commons copyright licenses - CC BY (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/).

http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/11081
http://change.gov/about/copyright_policy

Cheers,

[zmjjmz]

i say we just scrap computer class in general and start again...this time you are not aloud to teach any office product (of any type)...so you learn about the computer...not formatting paragraphs

+1
Computer classes should be about the computer. If you want to teach kids how to do basic text formatting, do not tie it to a specific product (kids aren't so stupid that they'll fail to learn multiple office suites in one semester, especially when most suites are alike) and do not pass it off as fulfilling a technology requirement.

[sunoccard]

i say we just scrap computer class in general and start again...this time you are not aloud to teach any office product (of any type)...so you learn about the computer...not formatting paragraphs

+1
what was the world thinking about when making things like "formatting text documents" ? if the information is there it's a perfectly good paper, as for going to real computer work yes that's defiantly needed since half the people i know can't understand the basics of a components of a PC let alone how to change a hard drive or how to add RAM

[Skripka]

+1
what was the world thinking about when making things like "formatting text documents" ? if the information is there it's a perfectly good paper, as for going to real computer work yes that's defiantly needed since half the people i know can't understand the basics of a components of a PC let alone how to change a hard drive or how to add RAM

....heck, I know people who supposedly took computer classes about Office and similar utilities-who barely know how to use any of the basic functions of MS Word or Outlook-fluently.....


Most people/students in ANY class-only want to know the bare minimums to get the grade--and move on to something more interesting next class period.

If Obama is serious in getting a PC in the hands of every kid, his only practical choices are *nix based systems. Give a kid an internet connection and a WinXP install--and they can have the OS trashed and BSOD with viruses/spyware/malware, you name it, in less time than it takes for a pizza delivery.

Also with the proliferation of illegal P2P sharing, it makes things for the schools a legal nightmare. Who is responsible $$$$$$, when students who are minors are infringing on IP? Are the parents responsible, they are legal gaurdians? Is it the schools-after all they provided the computer and the means for IP infringing? Is the kid responsible to pay the $$$$$ settlement to the RIAA/MPAA?

Yes you can try to lock down the machine, but kids aren't stupid-when they want to do something they;ve done on other computers, and they'll just surf the internet for a way to get around it.


Obama's idea is a good one--but the details are a technical and legal minefield.

[gn2]

Microsoft gives my school free licenses


why?

Same reason drug pushers give free samples of their wares, to get people hooked.

If Mr Obama helps break addiction to closed source products, then that's very definitely A Good Thing.

[Grant A.]

why? they've made such a big deal at my school for using it without licenses, well at least in my comp. classes, but free licenses? i want to say that's not true, but i don't go to your school

Bill Gates made a foundation a while back to give free/low priced computers to schools. Being given an apple is much different than taking an apple. See my point?

TBH, I could totally careless if schools go either way. An operating system is a choice for the end user, not everyone should be wearing glasses, just the people that need them. ;)

[zmjjmz]

Also with the proliferation of illegal P2P sharing, it makes things for the schools a legal nightmare. Who is responsible $$$$$$, when students who are minors are infringing on IP? Are the parents responsible, they are legal gaurdians? Is it the schools-after all they provided the computer and the means for IP infringing? Is the kid responsible to pay the $$$$$ settlement to the RIAA/MPAA?

Yes you can try to lock down the machine, but kids aren't stupid-when they want to do something they;ve done on other computers, and they'll just surf the internet for a way to get around it.


Obama's idea is a good one--but the details are a technical and legal minefield.

Our school uses a combination of whitelisted ports and a web filter to prevent illegal filesharing while the school is responsible for the kid.
If this is implemented, then Obama could easily deter most of the student population from illegal filesharing because it won't be so easy by way of providing an internet connection (the kids who are going to benefit from this probably don't have a computer/internet connection at home) through the school, which runs the port block and filter.
In addition, they could take the legal stance that the universities are taking in response to the MAFIA.

[Skripka]

In addition, they could take the legal stance that the universities are taking in response to the MAFIA.

Rolling over and playing dead, on the whole? Most schools just turn in their students to those con artists-those that don't are a very tiny (but fairly vocal) minority.



Most government programs start out as a good sounding idea, that can be done cheaply and fairly easily---that get ruined by profiteers and lobbyists. The US Space Shuttle was supposed to be fast (fly 50+ times per year), easy to service, and cheap; as originally proposed--and we all know how well that has gone on all those scores.

Most schools run borderline red budget territory, there is barely enough money for No Child Left Behind tests--affording PCs of any type--for each pupil (even something cheap like the OLPC XO laptop), is a pipe-dream from the school districts' budgetary perspective.



Don't get me wrong, it would be good to pull off. But given how broke 90% of school districts are, given how broke most state budgets are, and given how far in debt the US federal government is (and it is bailing every rich CEO out)--I doubt Obama will pull this off. The legal and technical problems, as well as the complete lack of $$$ lying around to fund it pretty much kills it.

[-grubby]

If Mr Obama helps break addiction to closed source products, then that's very definitely A Good Thing.

I wouldn't say it's an addiction persay, it's just fueld by ignorance. People don't know what other options their are, and if they do, they might feel uncomfortable trying them for various reasons (it's free [sometimes, I know that not all OSS software is FOSS], not many others they know uses it, they don't teach about it in schools, etc)

[jimi_hendrix]

If we're not to teach aloud, do we teach silently? Or are paragraphs about spelling ok while those about formatting are not to be mentioned?

you're no fun...

[smartboyathome]

Actually, its easier than you think to secure a Linux computer from kids. I came up with a demo OS for my school, which sank like a rock, but it allowed the school to distribute optional programs for students to install depending on the class they were taking, as well as updates to the OS, without the kids being able to install other programs or get root access. It involved using both a password on changing the BIOS as well as Linux security itself. Here's how it worked:

I first added a root user with a strong password (for techs, having no root password is bad). Then, I edited /etc/sudoers and make it so that kids could only use the update manager and Add/Remove Programs as root. After that, I added a test repo which could easily be switched out for one hosted by Insight itself. Finally, I uninstalled all unneeded software from the comp and rebooted to set a BIOS password. Now the students can't get around it and the comp is online, but they get updates and such.

I could see a similar thing working for the U.S. if they ever wanted to do something like that. :)

[Bölvaður]

to make government computers use pardus

NICE!
I heard great things about Pardus when it was new and found it a little bit strange to hear it was from Turkey.
Good news, definitely good news..

[barisurum]

found it a little bit strange to hear it was from Turkey
?

[Johnsie]

I don't think the government of any country should create a nanny state by telling people what operating system to use. However, if a government is giving people computers then it should be up to the local education authority what software is being used. I think local businesses should also get a say. Students need to be learning the operating system and software that will be relevant for the industry they are planning on going into. People trying to push Linux on all users do Linux more harm than good because there are things that Linux is not good at that Windows or Mac are better at.

There is no point learning Linux if you want to be a CAD engineer.

[barisurum]

I don't think the government of any country should create a nanny state by telling people what operating system to use. However, if a government is giving people computers then it should be up to the local education authority what software is being used. I think local businesses should also get a say. Students need to be learning the operating system and software that will be relevant for the industry they are planning on going into. People trying to push Linux on all users do Linux more harm than good because there are things that Linux is not good at that Windows or Mac are better at.

There is no point learning Linux if you want to be a CAD engineer.

I totally agree with that. The aim of computer education must be productivity, and governments must choose the best productive environment to teach in schools. There are key areas where Linux is way behind the proprietary oses. And one is computer aided design, which is very very very important.
But to choose an OS for the government computer that does office jobs, server maintenance and database administration linux is the best choice.

[eternalnewbee]

The president elect, in his weekly statement to the nation, has promised to put more computers in schools, among other things.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGpIT...layer_embedded
I visited his contact site, to send him a few lines.
http://www.youtube.com/inbox?to_user...tion_compose=1
Please, every American who understands the benefits of Open Source should send him a message, to tell him of the virtues of Open Source. I need not list them for you - I won't give you a prepared form or any such thing. You are USING open source, you KNOW the benefits!!

Try to convince him, and his advisors, that students who study Microsoft operating systems and Microsoft office systems are NOT getting a complete education. My own college age son, who is studying "computer science", is only learning what Microsoft deems appropriate for "consumers" to learn. In effect, he learns how to jump through hoops to make a computer happy. My high school aged son, on the other hand, is studying and learning open source at home, and he makes computers jump through hoops for HIM.

If Obama is going to spend hundreds of millions, or even billions, on modernizing the Internet, education, and more, then he needs to pave the way for ALTERNATIVES to Microsoft! As a security model alone, Microsoft systems are a complete failure. Corporate America has lost BILLIONS of dollars to exploits which will not run on Linux or other open source systems!

Please - if you love computing, help to put Obama on the right track!!

Runaway1956
I might just make myself hated for what I'm about to say, but hey! I'm not standing in Galileo's shoes (wouldn't that be something!):
The reason I turned away from Windows, was that I found out Vista was developed by MS + the NSA.
The US government starting to use Open Source might well be the end of FREEDOM as we know it for Linux. I can imagine countless heads developing new schemes to infiltrate people's private lives for the sake of "national security". National security my (you know what)
Call me paranoid, stupid, naive, ignorant, or whatever. But even if this government is the best thing that's ever happened to the USA, who knows what's going to happen in 4, or 8 years time?
This weapon of good might just be turned against us.
Go ahead. Hit me...

[sdowney717]

pardus is for Turkey
So, how about a chinese government sponsored version of Linux, would it be locked down and monitored somehow?

I read Bill Gates talked with Obama about spending issues so perhaps he has his ear.

I believe if more governments start to push linux use, then we will get better attention to software and compatibility usability issues.
Linux on the desktop has gotten to a place where it is a real threat to MS.

[eternalnewbee]

I believe if more governments start to push linux use, then we will get better attention to software and compatibility usability issues.
Linux on the desktop has gotten to a place where it is a real threat to MS.
Again, call me naieve, but I believe in: Power to the people. Governments come and go, but we, the people (that's right!) will always be there.

[zmjjmz]

I might just make myself hated for what I'm about to say, but hey! I'm not standing in Galileo's shoes (wouldn't that be something!):
The reason I turned away from Windows, was that I found out Vista was developed by MS + the NSA.
The US government starting to use Open Source might well be the end of FREEDOM as we know it for Linux. I can imagine countless heads developing new schemes to infiltrate people's private lives for the sake of "national security". National security my (you know what)
Call me paranoid, stupid, naive, ignorant, or whatever. But even if this government is the best thing that's ever happened to the USA, who knows what's going to happen in 4, or 8 years time?
This weapon of good might just be turned against us.
Go ahead. Hit me...

You're a bit late. The NSA has already contributed code to Linux.

[eternalnewbee]

You're a bit late. The NSA has already contributed code to Linux.
Elaborate! Please.

[p_quarles]

Elaborate! Please.
SELinux. It's part of the mainline kernel.

And the question is really "Why shoulnd't it be?" The NSA has played important roles in developing a number of the most powerful security tools we have, including encryption algorithms like AES. Yes, they are good at spying -- so naturally they're good at blocking attempts at spying as well.

And, no, it's not like the NSA is handing out binaries and telling people "here, use this. We think you'll like it *evil laugh*." When their work is available to public scrutiny, they become a contributor just like anyone else.

[sdowney717]

Government's can bring resources to bear, monies and social efforts aimed towards promoting technologies.
I dont see anything really wrong with this. We also know any covert attempts to subvert freedom would likely be soon discovered and exposed by the community, and then users could decide to use or not use the technology.

You should worry a lot more about MS in this regard.

[eternalnewbee]

We also know any covert attempts to subvert freedom would likely be soon discovered and exposed by the community, and then users could decide to use or not use the technology.
Really?

[p_quarles]

Really?
If you buy the idea that open source is built on the principle of community code review, then it really doesn't matter who contributes the code. It all gets reviewed the same way.

So, yes, really.

[eternalnewbee]

And, no, it's not like the NSA is handing out binaries and telling people "here, use this. We think you'll like it *evil laugh*." When their work is available to public scrutiny, they become a contributor just like anyone else.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't convince me. This doesn't sound like an argument the NSA would use themselves.
And *evil laugh* What do you mean?

[p_quarles]

I'm sorry, but that doesn't convince me. This doesn't sound like an argument the NSA would use themselves.

Whether or not you intend to be stubborn has nothing to do with the core issue, which is about code review. If you believe that code review leads to transparency, then you should be willing to ignore the author of the code. If you don't believe that code review leads to transparency (which is what it sounds like you're telling us), then you have a very strangely misplaced trust in GNU/Linux to begin with.

[eternalnewbee]

I might just make myself hated for what I'm about to say, but hey! I'm not standing in Galileo's shoes (wouldn't that be something!):
The reason I turned away from Windows, was that I found out Vista was developed by MS + the NSA.
The US government starting to use Open Source might well be the end of FREEDOM as we know it for Linux. I can imagine countless heads developing new schemes to infiltrate people's private lives for the sake of "national security". National security my (you know what)
Call me paranoid, stupid, naive, ignorant, or whatever. But even if this government is the best thing that's ever happened to the USA, who knows what's going to happen in 4, or 8 years time?
This weapon of good might just be turned against us.
Go ahead. Hit me...

Whether or not you intend to be stubborn has nothing to do with the core issue, which is about code review. If you believe that code review leads to transparency, then you should be willing to ignore the author of the code. If you don't believe that code review leads to transparency (which is what it sounds like you're telling us), then you have a very strangely misplaced trust in GNU/Linux to begin with.
Thanks, p_quarles. You just made my point. Although I'm not really happy about your rudeness, but I guess you can make that go away...
There's stubborn for you

[p_quarles]

Thanks, p_quarles. You just made my point. Although I'm not really happy about your rudeness, but I guess you can make that go away...
I don't really know what your point is. You're just disseminating fear about NSA contributions to computer security in a way that demonstrates very little understanding of the open source ecosystem.

If you actually do have evidence or reason for these fears, that aren't based simply in misunderstanding, I look forward to hearing them.

[eternalnewbee]

I don't really know what your point is. You're just disseminating fear about NSA contributions to computer security in a way that demonstrates very little understanding of the open source ecosystem.
And you are assuming superior knowledge of the open source ecosystem, like it's untouchable.

[CholericKoala]

If the public were let in on many government operations, they would never happen.

[p_quarles]

And you are assuming superior knowledge of the open source ecosystem, like it's untouchable.
Of course open source allows for flaws. For instance, the problem with Debian's OpenSSL packaging that created thousands for backdoors in computers worldwide.

Again, my point is that the open source ecosystem doesn't care where the code comes from. All contributions should be subject to scrutiny, as backdoors can be the result of both malice and ineptitude.

Moreover, the fact that an agency contributes code doesn't give it control over the project.

[notwen]

Open source code is looked over by the masses, the masses maintain/test/secure/authorize the code prior to it being adding to the kernel. Until the NSA controls those masses I don't see too much need for concern.

I could say this in a more complex way, but this should be easy enough and to the point enough to make the point for those willing to accept it. =]

[mips]

I don't really know what your point is. You're just disseminating fear about NSA contributions to computer security in a way that demonstrates very little understanding of the open source ecosystem.

If you actually do have evidence or reason for these fears, that aren't based simply in misunderstanding, I look forward to hearing them.

+1

I'm going to bang my head on a wall now.