miscommunications

[Teroedni]

I'm afraid I don't understand how the Doc is not competing against the Official Wiki. I absolutely see the benefit of taking useful docs from the forums and placing them on a wiki...I just don't see at all why you need a separate wiki, regardless of whether or not you cross-link. In fact, the cross-linking thing sounds like something that would impact efficiency.

I have not tried to create a competition:(.
But the Gwos doc is just so much better and easier to navigate in than the Wiki.
Why is this so bad?. Theres nothing stopping you from copy our wiki or vice versa.
I cant se any bad in documentation building up.


Is it only the wiki team who got this right or?

[az]

I have not tried to create a competition:(.
But the Gwos doc is just so much better and easier to navigate in than the Wiki.
Why is this so bad?. Theres nothing stopping you from copy our wiki or vice versa.
I cant se any bad in documentation building up.


Is it only the wiki team who got this right or?

The point is that the documentation on the ubuntu wiki serves *all* of the ubuntu community. People often go there before they try the forums or mailing lists.

An effort should be made to record the useful documentation that the forums produce on-the-fly and put it where the rest of the community can use it. The current project that the forum wants to adopt kills any effort from the stuff getting directly onto the wiki. You really have to be a forum member to know about that project.

Of course, no one is stopping anyone from cutting and pasting the documentation but it seems to me that what is being wasted is the potential effort of forum users who are working against what is best for the Ubuntu community by participating in this third-party source of documentation.

A lot of people can pitch in. Their efforts should be guided to the official site of documentation first. That goes with the principle of being the official forums, right?

No, the wiki team do not only have the right to this help, but they should get it by default. Give back to the community you represent before giving to someone else.

At the very least, there should be a forum project that runs in parallel to this private one, so that people who want to help (and not just those who are "in" and who have gotten secretly asked to be part of an elustrious team) can contribute to the wiki. For what reason was that effort canned?

[kassetra]

An effort should be made to record the useful documentation that the forums produce on-the-fly and put it where the rest of the community can use it.
Funny, that is exactly what the doc does. It's our knowledgebase.



The current project that the forum wants to adopt kills any effort from the stuff getting directly onto the wiki. Why? Have all the wiki people disappeared?


You really have to be a forum member to know about that project. No, actually. We have the doc pasted in announcements, signatures, and I'll stick a link somewhere on here too, just for the casual user to grab - so that anyone that even glances at the forums can see the knowledgebase.


Of course, no one is stopping anyone from cutting and pasting the documentation but it seems to me that what is being wasted is the potential effort of forum users who are working against what is best for the Ubuntu community by participating in this third-party source of documentation.

A lot of people can pitch in. Their efforts should be guided to the official site of documentation first. That goes with the principle of being the official forums, right? Hmm... Ok, we're the official forums, but our knowledgebase is a third party effort. Well that's contradictory.

And saying that our storage facility works against the community is absurd - it's our knowledgebase, a logical extension of the work we do.


Give back to the community you represent before giving to someone else. We are. We're giving back to all of the users that have ever lost the thread they were looking for.


there should be a forum project that runs in parallel to this private one, so that people who want to help (and not just those who are "in" and who have gotten secretly asked to be part of an elustrious team) can contribute to the wiki. This is a forum project. Doc is the forum knowledgebase; it is not a private project.

[az]

Funny, that is exactly what the doc does. It's our knowledgebase.

Clearly, "our" should read "ubuntu's"!



Why? Have all the wiki people disappeared?

No, you are snubbing them. Great teamwork.


No, actually. We have the doc pasted in announcements, signatures, and I'll stick a link somewhere on here too, just for the casual user to grab - so that anyone that even glances at the forums can see the knowledgebase.

Right. Like what I said.... If you are not on the forums...


Hmm... Ok, we're the official forums, but our knowledgebase is a third party effort. Well that's contradictory.

The wiki is one, the forums are two and the other site is three. Third party.


And saying that our storage facility works against the community is absurd - it's our knowledgebase, a logical extension of the work we do.

You need to read the more of the whole sentence. Here it is:

"what is being wasted is the potential effort of forum users who are working against what is best for the Ubuntu community by participating in this third-party source of documentation"


We are. We're giving back to all of the users that have ever lost the thread they were looking for.

...and not to any other ubuntu users.


This is a forum project. Doc is the forum knowledgebase; it is not a private project.

It is not part of the ubuntu community and has not made anny effort to be. Is it on the official website. Has it even asked Canonical for the permission to use the Trademark?

[KingBahamut]

Andrew - third-party source of documentation.

The Doc itself is not just a third party source of documentation. Again all you see is something to go against the Wiki. I see a collection of data , some that may duplicate the wiki, other data that doesnt. Its existence will only be forced down because I choose it. Are you taking the rights I have to express myself, to allow others to express themselves , away?

Not very Humanistic , Zajak. You my dear friend sound like a person trying to take choice away.

Freedom is not about Manipulation, Control, or taking choices away. Its about giving the user choice and alternative. You simply are so clouded in your judgement to see it, that its beyond you.


Right. Like what I said.... If you are not on the forums...


A simple google search breeds a number of blogs and other resources OUTSIDE the forums that refrence the doc. Shall I post all the documentation I have that shows how many OUTSIDE referals I get on the doc? Is 110,000 page views in just over a month the sign of something thats only known by a select few on the forum?


No, you are snubbing them. Great teamwork.

I have made a marked number of statements, requests, and even asking what I can do, to both mdke(mattheweast) and Mark shuttleworth himself. I dont call that snubbing. I try to amend my communications with the Doc/Wiki team. Watch it azz when you accuse people of not doing things, when people as myself are already trying to make the situation more liveable. You yourself exacerbate the problem by speaking without knowing first.

--


I think your initial attempts to "building" bridges may or may not have been ones of success. Largely because thats what the users see, is a Official member that has had very little interaction with the Community as a whole , at least on the forum level, coming in and making what they feel are demands about how things are run, and what is a wasted effort and what isnt (remember Matthew, bad choice of words not meaning, you should be careful with that). It is the very nature of human being to question such things. I admire your attempts at achieving effeciency. It is just here in this area, that I feel in my own interest its not nessecary. I wouldnt have the forums backing me -- The users, The Moderators, The Admins themselves if I thought that your brand of effeicency was needed. I dont feel it is. I simply aggree to disaggree with you. The site as a whole , for its living on a crappy Fedora Core 3 install on a Duron 900 with 256 megs of ram, is if anything someone of an aspect of pride for me. Ive had over 80,000 hits on it since I put the wiki up (this has just barely hit a 30 run time, in 30 days that much traffic isnt bad for a site for all intents and purposes isnt largely known by others than just the Forums). I dont see that as a wasted effort, which Im aware in your evidence was a bad choice of words rather than its actual meaning. So hes going to live on.

You have liscencing issues with it, I understand that, I have been more than willing to correct such things in an attempt to facilitate your ways and means. Just I as run links to already existing content onto your own wiki. Ulitmately I would desire to create large amounts of such cross linking but I think its if anything premature to state that kind of intent based on what you want to do with it.

You have desires of me to perform certain tasks, just ask.

[kassetra]

Informative comparison. Thanks. One clarification...what happens if the original author does not want her or his material on the Doc?

it doesn't go - we're not forcing people to post here on the forums, either.

of course - for the most part - everyone that has contributed to the forums and written a howto/etc. has been very enthusiastic about their work going into our knowledgebase.

[macgyver2]

it doesn't go - we're not forcing people to post here on the forums, either.

of course - for the most part - everyone that has contributed to the forums and written a howto/etc. has been very enthusiastic about their work going into our knowledgebase.
As I expected...but the option has to be there for the handful who aren't.

[KingBahamut]

That issue goes back to a concept of what liscense the Forums run under, does it not?

[kassetra]

Clearly, "our" should read "ubuntu's"!
No, I meant OURS. As in the FORUMS.
We have users, not ubuntu developers, here on the forum. USERS write posts and threads here - therefore, it is NOT "ubuntu's."


The wiki is one, the forums are two and the other site is three. Third party.
Nope. Forums/Doc = one source, one project.


You need to read the more of the whole sentence. Here it is:

"what is being wasted is the potential effort of forum users who are working against what is best for the Ubuntu community by participating in this third-party source of documentation"

...and not to any other ubuntu users.

It is not part of the ubuntu community and has not made anny effort to be. Is it on the official website. Has it even asked Canonical for the permission to use the Trademark?

It is part of the ubuntu community as much as the forums are - there is no separation between the forum and it's knowledgebase. period.

[manicka]

it doesn't go - we're not forcing people to post here on the forums, either.

of course - for the most part - everyone that has contributed to the forums and written a howto/etc. has been very enthusiastic about their work going into our knowledgebase.

I also inform the author through the discussion on the thread. No one has objected so far and as kass has said, are enthusiastic about its inclusion.

[az]

First of all, get my family name right.

Second, give the forum users who want to give documentation back to the community a choice. Facilitate them in porting their howtos to the official wiki in the same way you facilitate it to your third party website. Give them the option and let them chose.

If your team does not want to do this, allow the formation of a team that will I am sure that you will find some willing users who would like to have a choice in how that documentation is handled.

"Originally Posted by Kingbahamut's email to Mark,Matt,Kass
I think your initial attempts to "building" bridges may or may not have been ones of success. Largely because thats what the users see, is a Official member that has "

I read your snippet. I don't really understand your point, or the context. You should express your self more clearly, please.

[KingBahamut]

Email to MatthewEast and Mark about what I should do in regards to the Doc, yet again a sign that I myself am keeping communication going on between the official team and myself.

They have that right , the right to go to the Official if they want. Im not taking that choice away, Im not saying the user HAS TO SUBMIT to me, or any of my team. Im only giving them a place they can CHOOSE to send it to if they CHOOSE to do so. Choice , Im not forcing anything Zajak. Is that french?

All my team does is ask. I will point out in the future if you wish for my team to ASK and give the PROPER CHOICES if you wish me to.....again another sign that I am trying to keep a peaceful relationship between myself , the Doc, the forums, and the Official team. Something that I will remind you , that you have constantly exacerbated by bringing up these constant dead end arguments.

[darkmatter]

Clearly, "our" should read "ubuntu's"!

You are sadly misinformed, sir.

That knowledge is not the property of Ubuntu, it is the property of those users (and many they are) who authored it...

For a man who claims such a high respect for 'freedom' and the GPL, you sure are good at burying it, oir twisting its meaning to suit your own ideals as you see fit. Not very fair, is it???

You would claim 'censorship' on our behalf, yet it would appear that censorship is exactly what YOU are after...

[manicka]

Second, give the forum users who want to give documentation back to the community a choice. Facilitate them in porting their howtos to the official wiki in the same way you facilitate it to your third party website. Give them the option and let them chose.



so this message at the top of the customization section isn't enough?




We encourage users who post a howto or faq on the forums to also include this on the ubuntu wiki documentation site. Below is information on doing so.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=81999

[az]

No, I meant OURS. As in the FORUMS.
We have users, not ubuntu developers, here on the forum. USERS write posts and threads here - therefore, it is NOT "ubuntu's."

That is the kind of attitude that is poisonous to the relationship the forums have with the rest of Ubuntu.

You seem to be the only person I know that thinks that Ubuntu is only for developers, when it is highly regarded as the most user-friendly and community-oriented linux distribution.

[kassetra]

Second, give the forum users who want to give documentation back to the community a choice. Facilitate them in porting their howtos to the official wiki in the same way you facilitate it to your third party website. Give them the option and let them chose.
First of all, get this right: doc/forums = same source, same teams, same. doc isn't third part and never will be. it's the forums' knowledgebase.

Second, we give them options and choice by not restricting where they can post their own material. It's not like we have a draconian law that says anything posted here cannot go anywhere else. If they wish to post to the official wiki, by all means, please post there, I'm sure one of the official wiki team would be more than happy to help. Our teams, however, focus only on forum matters, which include doc.


If your team does not want to do this, allow the formation of a team that will I am sure that you will find some willing users who would like to have a choice in how that documentation is handled.
Teams on the forums do forum work. If someone else wants to form their own team and port to the official wiki, more power to them.

[kassetra]

That is the kind of attitude that is poisonous to the relationship the forums have with the rest of Ubuntu.

You seem to be the only person I know that thinks that Ubuntu is only for developers, when it is highly regarded as the most user-friendly and community-oriented linux distribution.

No azz, I don't. Maybe next time, read what I have to say instead of assuming and posting nonsense.

[az]

so this message at the top of the customization section isn't enough?

No. One sticky (nobody read stickies) versus a team of (twelve) people mobilised to comb the forums for documentation? I am suggesting another team to even the balance and give the users choice.




How is this not a productive conversation?

[az]

For a man who claims such a high respect for 'freedom' and the GPL, you sure are good at burying it, oir twisting its meaning to suit your own ideals as you see fit. Not very fair, is it???

There is an expectation in being the official forums. That is not being upheld. *That* is what is unfair. My point is not that you should stop doing whatever you want. My point is that the "official" forums should behave in the interest of the community. If these were not the official forums, I would not be discussing this.

[KingBahamut]

I have made numerous attempts at explaining my actions. Time and Time over. I have made myself available to the Official team, they can engage me at any time. I have engaged even Mark on this level, he too can talk to me at anytime he wishes. I have made numerous changes and references to my works , and those who contribute to my work. I have offered to make everything available to whoever wishes it.

And What do I get?

Constant berration and rib kicking for my website the Doc. Do I ever get told Im doing a good job? yes, by some.

Then we have Andrew (and the many like him), who will only ever be happy if the Doc is shut down, and closed. I would do anything to avert this, but its apparent that the only way for everyone to be happy is to close it.

Freedom isnt about Control or manipulation, Freedom is about Choice and the right to choose.

Fine.

Ive tried to be civil, ive tried to explain myself, Ive tried to be open. Ive even tried to get those in control to understand what im doing.

they dont get it.

Fine....keep pushing. Keep trying to close doors.

Eventually, Ill just go away.

Azz, have your way.

[az]

No azz, I don't. Maybe next time, read what I have to say instead of assuming and posting nonsense.

Not productive.

[akurashy]

That is the kind of attitude that is poisonous to the relationship the forums have with the rest of Ubuntu.

You seem to be the only person I know that thinks that Ubuntu is only for developers, when it is highly regarded as the most user-friendly and community-oriented linux distribution.


I been reading this thread calmly and speculating what is the point of this thread, I been sensing you have something against kassetra. Of course that just me,

Now, my bad if I'm wrong, but I think this is kinda stupid, other users can't do ubuntu contributions because they aren't official? I mean, What i'm reading here is a case that "official is this official is that", so what you been saying is that they need to be official to contribute things to ubuntu? Now that is not even freedom.

Of course, mark me if I'm wrong :)

[az]

(and the many like him), who will only ever be happy if the Doc is shut down, and closed.

Not true. When have I said this? I want the forums to dedicate energy to the wiki in the same way they do to non-ubuntu sources of documentation. Many scratch their heads wondering why this is not done by default.

[ubuntu-geek]

There is an expectation in being the official forums. That is not being upheld. *That* is what is unfair. My point is not that you should stop doing whatever you want. My point is that the "official" forums should behave in the interest of the community. If these were not the official forums, I would not be discussing this.
Feel free to expand on this comment..

[darkmatter]

I mean, What i'm reading here is a case that "official is this official is that", so what you been saying is that they need to be official to contribute things to ubuntu? Now that is not even freedom.

Of course, mark me if I'm wrong :)

No, you are not wrong...

This is indeed a case of a few bloated egos trying to prevent us from allowing the users choice.... to prevent us from inriching the user experience. All to stroke their own swollen egos and try to make themselves look like they are important...

[Knomefan]

Fine....keep pushing. Keep trying to close doors.

Eventually, Ill just go away.

Don't. Just put azz on your ignore list and be done with it.

[az]

Feel free to expand on this comment..

I though that is what I have been doing in this thread.

In as simple terms as I can muster:

The forums being official is like Ubuntu membership. Is someone going to become an ubuntu member by contributing only to Gentoo? No. Ubuntu membership is a recognition of a sustained and significant contribution to Ubuntu. That does not mean that an Ubuntu member cannot contribute to Gentoo. Not at all.

Being the official forums implies that the importance of giving back to the ubuntu community will be a top priority, no? Do not the forums represent Ubuntu?

[az]

All to stroke their own swollen egos and try to make themselves look like they are important...

Now that is offensive.

Here is an example of swollen ego:

post number fifty of
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=81666&page=2

[akurashy]

Now that is offensive.

Here is an example of swollen ego:

post number fifty of
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=81666&page=2

Offensive but darkmatter is correct of course, this thread have no purpose, I don't know what your main point is in stirring up the whole staffs of the forums.

[darkmatter]

azz... you are confused sir...that post by KB was thankful

And as for offensive... did I name any one specific? No, I don't believe I did... so it must have rang a bell if it offended you

[raublekick]

Freedom of choice is great and all, but what kind of choice is it when you have two resources, neither of which are 100% awesome? A user should have the choice to choose the BEST source, not just equal sources, and the sources we have now aren't quite at the BEST level. It's much easier for a new user, and even veteran users, to go to the Ubuntu web page, see the wiki, and find all sorts of good information there, instead of finding some of the information there, stumbling upon the forums, and finding the alternate doc site. Many users really have no experience with forums, and this forum I'd imagine is scary for new users, so who knows how long it would take them to find the alternate doc site.

There could be one unified best source, if people are willing, and that is what azz is getting at (I think?). Azz is right, being part an official part of Ubuntu implies that resources will be given to other official parts of Ubuntu.

Even if given the choice between doc sites, users aren't going to choose one or the other, they're going to choose both, because both will be useful. But they would be much more useful if their efforts were combined.

[ubuntu-geek]

I though that is what I have been doing in this thread.

In as simple terms as I can muster:

The forums being official is like Ubuntu membership. Is someone going to become an ubuntu member by contributing only to Gentoo? No. Ubuntu membership is a recognition of a sustained and significant contribution to Ubuntu. That does not mean that an Ubuntu member cannot contribute to Gentoo. Not at all.

Being the official forums implies that the importance of giving back to the ubuntu community will be a top priority, no? Do not the forums represent Ubuntu?
It seems the forums give back to the Ubuntu community every day by being here/online for Ubuntu users to use as a reference. Just because somone decided to put efforts into a wiki other then the main wiki doesnt reflect the forums as a whole regardless.

[Knomefan]

Seriously, I don't get it.
Why should the forums being official mean that people from the forum can't make a website to store the howtos written on this forum?
Might this lead to some redundant efforts? Probably, but so what?

Really, I fail to see what the issue is here and why it should merrit endless flamewars.

[ubuntu-geek]

Seriously, I don't get it.
Why should the forums being official mean that people from the forum can't make a website to store the howtos written on this forum?
Might this lead to some redundant efforts? Probably, but so what?

Really, I fail to see what the issue is here and why it should merrit endless flamewars.

Thats the smartest post I have read all day .. =D>

[matthew]

I've been waffling all morning: do I participate in this thread or not? I posted a very short message in this thread's parent, but I want to say a little more.

Note: it is not my goal to stir anything up, this conversation's been spiraling pretty quickly already.

Tone: pleasant, kind, gentle with a touch of friendly humor--these are detached observations and not intended to be flame-drawing accusations.

1) I don't think the knowledgebase that KB has put together from forum contributions is in any way competing with the official wiki. Nor do I believe either is better or worse than the other. I have contributed to one and not the other simply since I started doing so at least 6 months before KB's even existed. I have felt both welcomed and desired by both communities and for me contributing to either seems both easy and to be a real contribution to the overall Ubuntu community, whether official or unofficial.

2) I don't think everything azz says is evil, wrong, mean-spirited, nor ill intended. I think he is trying to express some personal concerns, but that he happens to be offending people along the way. I'm not always sure it's his manner that is offending, either. I think he has a gift for mentioning things that hit sensitive nerves.

3) I read the transcripts from the recent Community Council meeting since I was otherwise engaged and wasn't able to be there. I think ubuntu-geek has a very valid point about the council not being involved in the forums enough to really know what is happening here. I also think the way that his concerns were communicated could have been more effective in that meeting as well as in previous ones that I have attended.

4) I think the real dispute is often not about the specific issues being discussed. There appear to be some seriously hurt feelings here as well as a tendency on some parties to take offense quickly. Disagreement with a decision or policy does not automatically equate to rebellion. While I have witnessed several occasions where suggestions and comments about these forums have been made, listened to, taken to heart, and either rejected or implemented with grace and openness I have also noticed some glaring exceptions to that rule. I wonder why. (I genuinely wonder, I do not know but there seems to be a trend that certain individuals like azz get very strong negative reactions.) I don't want to know--it's none of my business. I also think that it isn't the business of any of the forum users, but that all of us are privy to your feelings of disdain from time to time.

5) The easiest style of communication to trust and listen to is the one that is gentle, clear, and non-threatening. The most effective way to listen is to decide not be allow someone to have the power to rile you up or make you feel threatened. Neither is easy, both are a choice.In email and on forums it is even more difficult, even with a liberal use of smileys.

In a post-9/11 world ruled by fear and paranoia it has become difficult to disagree with leaders in the West without being accused of all sorts of horrible things (unpatriotic, sympathetic with an enemy-real or imagined, "if you are not 100% in agreement with me then you are my enemy"). When that spills into our relationships, friendships, workplace and family these things are destroyed. Those who wield power the best are those who are able to listen to all sides and then make a decision that is firm without being tyrannical. How do they do it? They speak gently, they listen intently, and they tread softly without compromising core beliefs.

<...hoping I'm helping and not hindering...>

[ubuntu-geek]

I've been waffling all morning: do I participate in this thread or not? I posted a very short message in this thread's parent, but I want to say a little more.

Note: it is not my goal to stir anything up, this conversation's been spiraling pretty quickly already.

Tone: pleasant, kind, gentle with a touch of friendly humor--these are detached observations and not intended to be flame-drawing accusations.

1) I don't think the knowledgebase that KB has put together from forum contributions is in any way competing with the official wiki. Nor do I believe either is better or worse than the other. I have contributed to one and not the other simply since I started doing so at least 6 months before KB's even existed. I have felt both welcomed and desired by both communities and for me contributing to either seems both easy and to be a real contribution to the overall Ubuntu community, whether official or unofficial.

2) I don't think everything azz says is evil, wrong, mean-spirited, nor ill intended. I think he is trying to express some personal concerns, but that he happens to be offending people along the way. I'm not always sure it's his manner that is offending, either. I think he has a gift for mentioning things that hit sensitive nerves.

3) I read the transcripts from the recent Community Council meeting since I was otherwise engaged and wasn't able to be there. I think ubuntu-geek has a very valid point about the council not being involved in the forums enough to really know what is happening here. I also think the way that his concerns were communicated could have been more effective in that meeting as well as in previous ones that I have attended.

4) I think the real dispute is often not about the specific issues being discussed. There appear to be some seriously hurt feelings here as well as a tendency on some parties to take offense quickly. Disagreement with a decision or policy does not automatically equate to rebellion. While I have witnessed several occasions where suggestions and comments about these forums have been made, listened to, taken to heart, and either rejected or implemented with grace and openness I have also noticed some glaring exceptions to that rule. I wonder why. (I genuinely wonder, I do not know but there seems to be a trend that certain individuals like azz get very strong negative reactions.) I don't want to know--it's none of my business. I also think that it isn't the business of any of the forum users, but that all of us are privy to your feelings of disdain from time to time.

5) The easiest style of communication to trust and listen to is the one that is gentle, clear, and non-threatening. The most effective way to listen is to decide not be allow someone to have the power to rile you up or make you feel threatened. Neither is easy, both are a choice.In email and on forums it is even more difficult, even with a liberal use of smileys.

In a post-9/11 world ruled by fear and paranoia it has become difficult to disagree with leaders in the West without being accused of all sorts of horrible things (unpatriotic, sympathetic with an enemy-real or imagined, "if you are not 100% in agreement with me then you are my enemy"). When that spills into our relationships, friendships, workplace and family these things are destroyed. Those who wield power the best are those who are able to listen to all sides and then make a decision that is firm without being tyrannical. How do they do it? They speak gently, they listen intently, and they tread softly without compromising core beliefs.

<...hoping I'm helping and not hindering...>
Nice points and very well written.. with #3 yeah my patience is thin with the situations.. I acknowledge that..

[matthew]

I wanted to add to my previous post:

I am extremely grateful to ubuntu-geek for hosting and providing these forums,

to kassetra and jdong for playing such major roles in the administration

to all the mods and team members for their work.

I realize all this is done by volunteers who are both hard-working and good people.

[darkmatter]

Seriously, I don't get it.
Why should the forums being official mean that people from the forum can't make a website to store the howtos written on this forum?
Might this lead to some redundant efforts? Probably, but so what?

Really, I fail to see what the issue is here and why it should merrit endless flamewars.

Someone that actually gets it...

I love you man...:)

[az]

Just because somone decided to put efforts into a wiki other then the main wiki doesnt reflect the forums as a whole regardless.

Not in itself, no. But that there is not an equivalent push to improve the official wiki first, does.


akurashy - " I been sensing you have something against kassetra."

I was responding to the statement, not to the person.

[KingBahamut]

If the sense of community exists, both freedom and security exist as well. The Community then takes on a life of its own, as people become free enough to share and secure enough to get along. Our community as a whole is an almalgamation of this element. Users, Admins, Moderators, Outsiders all contribute to the base of a commonality. Those expressions are expressed and viewed in a variety of ways. It is this openness of the community, this difference of view that creates a grouping of knowledgeable and open people. The variety in a community speaks of this. Without such variety, the actualization of such things and Identification, realization, and socializtion cannot occur. The community that is driven by one sole effort with no variation creates a one sided and biased view about what surrounds the community.

Our community is about choice, not about centralization, not about making one thing better than another. Our community professes to be for the Human. In that , variety exists, or we limit the community in its ability to grow and prosper.

To limit such things would be to limit the ability of a Community, defying the very definition of what a community is, and stunting its growth.

We share, We are open, We prosper.

This is not a communist society Azz, nor is it a Socialist one. A community of freedom can exist in neither of those situations.

[manicka]

Thats the smartest post I have read all day .. =D>

agreed :)

[timczer]

I like what knomefan had to say. I think this debate of wiki verses wiki is much like linux as a whole. Why do we have so many different types of linux os's? We have derivatives of derivatives (ebuntu from ubuntu from debian) We do because that is the basis of open source (at least as I understand it). People look for different things in a distro, they have different needs. What makes me happy in an OS, makes you want to scream. I am also sure that there have been many different distros created that died off because they didn't find a market. Open free markets will allow the market for a product to decide what meets their needs the best, the others fall by the wayside. Why do we demand that everyone must put their thoughts and efforts into one wiki? We don't demand that everyone put their efforts into one linux distro. If the Doc wiki stinks and no one finds it useful, it goes away. If the official wiki stinks, it goes away. Let the user decide what they like and let them use it. It is the same way in the forums. I can post an issue, and I could get dozens of responses with different solutions. People piggyback on others posts to build better solutions to my problems. I choose the solution that appears to be best for me. No one demands that I must follow their solution because it is "official", they respect that I will do what works best for me.

And as far as the issue of what wiki people are directed to from the forums, doesn't the top tab "official wiki" go to the official ubuntu wiki. That seems to be pretty directed to me.

[az]

Our community as a whole is an almalgamation of this element. Users, Admins, Moderators, Outsiders all contribute to the base of a commonality. .

I agree to most of what I can understand you are trying to say except that. Your starting off from a point that is not common to everybody involved in this conversation.

The community as a whole is not just Users, Admins, Moderators, Outsiders, but the greater Ubuntu community. I agree with your thoughs from an ubuntu-centric point of view, and not an ubuntuforums-centric point of view.

[Teroedni]

I agree to most of what I can understand you are trying to say except that. Your starting off from a point that is not common to everybody involved in this conversation.

The community as a whole is not just Users, Admins, Moderators, Outsiders, but the greater Ubuntu community. I agree with your thoughs from an ubuntu-centric point of view, and not an ubuntuforums-centric point of view.

what do you mean by that?

[az]

what do you mean by that?
It's like Québec wanting to seperate from Canada.

(Sorry, that is a horrible topic of discussion. That's the first thing that popped into mind, though)

I guess what it comes down to is who do the forums represent? Forum users or Ubuntu users?

[Teroedni]

The answer is simple
Ubuntu users.

[drogoh]

That is the kind of attitude that is poisonous to the relationship the forums have with the rest of Ubuntu.


A similar thing could be said about the constant public stonings around here being inconducive to the overall community...



You seem to be the only person I know that thinks that Ubuntu is only for developers, when it is highly regarded as the most user-friendly and community-oriented linux distribution.

I know this is a public attack against kassetra and, quite honestly, seeing something like THIS is what is wrong with the forums. Beating a dead horse (trying to oust kassetra for some apparently personal reason) won't make that issue come back to life. I've known kassetra for several years and since she has started with the Ubuntu community I have heard nothing but how user-friendly it is, all until this crusade started against one of the nicest and understanding people I know.

From another thread I notice is being used as ammo:


You make ubuntu look bad.


I see things like this and I think "Oh, this again? Yawn." Seriously, your troll is pretty damned old, dude. I suggest you find a new hobby quick. You tried to get rid of her once, it fell through. Give it up already.

[az]

Seriously, your troll is pretty damned old, dude. I suggest you find a new hobby quick. You tried to get rid of her once, it fell through. Give it up already.

I never tried to "get rid of her." I had issues about some things she said about Canonical. She actually left on her own for a while.

Maybe there were other users who have said bad things about her on IRC or something. I do not know about that.

I would appreciate it if people would not make assumptions as to my feelings.

[darkmatter]

I never tried to "get rid of her." I had issues about some things she said about Canonical. She actually left on her own for a while.

Maybe there were other users who have said bad things about her on IRC or something. I do not know about that.

I would appreciate it if people would not make assumptions as to my feelings.

Come one... I've tried to remain.. forgiving here...but drogoh is right...you have launch a personal attack against kassetra on more than one occassion, and you still do...and your crap is getting so damn old it stinks something awful.. Get real.

Perhaps you should be a little more honest in your statements...

And if you want me to hard link to the proof of those ongoing attacks... I'll be sure to do so after I get some sleep...

[az]

Perhaps you should be a little more honest in your statements...


I know a lot of people have problems with her, but I have better things to do. Really. Getting her fired would not solve anything, anyway.

The problem is a difference in opinion as to what community the forum represents.

[drogoh]

I never tried to "get rid of her." I had issues about some things she said about Canonical. She actually left on her own for a while.

Maybe there were other users who have said bad things about her on IRC or something. I do not know about that.

I would appreciate it if people would not make assumptions as to my feelings.

Just calling it how I see it...

If you HONESTLY have problems about anything she says or does, take it up in private and in a civil manner. It's really not that hard to do. The public canings don't have to happen. They only happen because you happen to come in and belittle kassetra.

I don't have to make assumptions, this whole two layers of humbug you call 'for Ubuntu' is pretty easy to see through.

[gnapple]

Come one... I've tried to remain.. forgiving here...but drogoh is right...you have launch a personal attack against kassetra on more than one occassion, and you still do...and your crap is getting so damn old it stinks something awful.. Get real.

Perhaps you should be a little more honest in your statements...

And if you want me to hard link to the proof of those ongoing attacks... I'll be sure to do so after I get some sleep...Darkmatter your behaviour is also a problem here, as a mod you should never use words like "your crap" or answer by a personnal attack.

Your are a mod so act as a mod ! or become again a simple user.

I'm really fed up with mods who lose their control.

[akurashy]

I know a lot of people have problems with her, but I have better things to do. Really. Getting her fired would not solve anything, anyway.

The problem is a difference in opinion as to what community the forum represents.

What difference are we talking about, I mean the fact that she is a woman and she can't "manage" things correctly or so you think.

[drogoh]

I know a lot of people have problems with her, but I have better things to do. Really. Getting her fired would not solve anything, anyway.

The problem is a difference in opinion as to what community the forum represents.

If there are better things to do, why do the attacks still go on?

I agree with you on one thing, actually. Forcing her to leave would not solve anything as long as there are users that fire pop shots off at forums staff whenever they can.

[Knomefan]

Darkmatter your behaviour is also a problem here, as a mod you should never use words like "your crap" or answer by a personnal attack.

Your are a mod so act as a mod ! or become again a simple user.

Sorry, I think I have to disagree here.
First off, you are of course right that mods should be careful about what they say and how they say it (but then again, normal users should be too, shouldn't they), but crap certainly isn't such an evil word, is it?

You also should keep in mind that mods are only people who can feel provoked and then act in a way they maybe shouldn't have acted (though again, I don't think darkmatter did this here).

Last but not least, you should also keep in mind how azz is abusing this forum for his personal vengance for months now. He literally has hundreds, if not thousands of posts attacking the forum staff here. Clearly, I find it very unjust to critisize a mod because he uses the word crap in reply to azz, instead of critisizing azz.

[az]

What difference are we talking about, .
See post 43 of this very thread.




I mean the fact that she is a woman and she can't "manage" things correctly or so you think.

On the whole, I think women are more reasonable than men. I prefer to work for women rather than men. I think more should be done to attract women into IT/CS. I have stated this many times in the past. Let's get off this topic.

[gnapple]

Sorry, I think I have to disagree here.
First off, you are of course right that mods should be careful about what they say and how they say it (but then again, normal users should be too, shouldn't they), but crap certainly isn't such an evil word, is it?I'm ok to understand what you say, but i followed everything the last day and it's not the first time that darkmatter lose his calm. Ok, he has been attacked but this situation cant end if even mods answer to personal attack, it's not such difficult to ignore azz personnal attacks.

I'm not blaming Darkmatter as a person but as a mod, i know it's sometimes difficult to be a mod but if you accept this title you have some duties.
Because when i read those threads, it's like when i see a childs fight.

So, what i wish is to not see anymore a mod to answer with a personnal attack in a thread, even if he is right. You can use PM for that.

Hope you don't feel attacked by my post, i'm just tired of this kind of post.

[Knomefan]

I'm ok to understand what you say, but i followed everything the last day and it's not the first time that darkmatter lose his calm. Ok, he has been attacked but this situation cant end if even mods answer to personal attack, it's not such difficult to ignore azz personnal attacks.

I'm not blaming Darkmatter as a person but as a mod, i know it's sometimes difficult to be a mod but if you accept this title you have some duties.
Because when i read those threads, it's like when i see a childs fight.

So, what i wish is to not see anymore a mod to answer with a personnal attack in a thread, even if he is right. You can use PM for that.

Hope you don't feel attacked by my post, i'm just tired of this kind of post.

I can certainly understand where you are coming from, but I still think that the word crap isn't really bad and I still think you are a little harsh towards darkmatter.

What I can wholeheartedly agree with is that it would probably be the best thing for all those involved to simply ignroe azz's attacks.

[gnapple]

LOL, ok my problem is not the word "crap", endeed it's not an evil word ;), but more the behaviour in general and i don't think to darkmatter in particular.
As i said, i don't blame darkmatter because maybe i would have act like him, i can't know.
So my appologize goes to Darmatter if he feel attacked by my post, it's not my purpose, he have enough to do so don't care about my post, i'm not really against Darmatter or the forum staff but i feel needed to warned you about some wrong agressive behaviours.

Knomefan, you're right my post are a little bit too strong but maybe it was needed to be understood.

By the way, congrats for your reflexive behaviour, i think i have said what i have to say now.

see you

[akurashy]

See post 43 of this very thread.




On the whole, I think women are more reasonable than men. I prefer to work for women rather than men. I think more should be done to attract women into IT/CS. I have stated this many times in the past. Let's get off this topic.
Well your community council doesn't think it of that way, because reading the logs they think of her as a ... well I will say no more. All I see from the community council are attempts to drop kassetra, jdong and some other people.

[lerrup]

Well your community council doesn't think it of that way, because reading the logs they think of her as a ... well I will say no more. All I see from the community council are attempts to drop kassetra, jdong and some other people.


Some references would be nice to inform those of us who haven't studied these things in detail.

[KingBahamut]

Sorry, I think I have to disagree here.
First off, you are of course right that mods should be careful about what they say and how they say it (but then again, normal users should be too, shouldn't they), but crap certainly isn't such an evil word, is it?

You also should keep in mind that mods are only people who can feel provoked and then act in a way they maybe shouldn't have acted (though again, I don't think darkmatter did this here).

Last but not least, you should also keep in mind how azz is abusing this forum for his personal vengance for months now. He literally has hundreds, if not thousands of posts attacking the forum staff here. Clearly, I find it very unjust to critisize a mod because he uses the word crap in reply to azz, instead of critisizing azz.

Lest I remind everyone of the fiasco that started all this mess. Azz far exacerbates and irritates a situation that he has no business doing so. I dont see Jdod , Datawolf, PanickedThumb, or the others of that group in here , constantly festering a problem , rather than trying to fix it. The repeated number of assumptions on his part have lead to counted remarks taken as negatively by not one, not two, but all of us. Personal attacks aside, I feel that the abuse on that side of the coin far exceeds our own abuse. Im not denying fault, The administration has had its points of unclarity, a number of them. That be said why bother having everyone in the community criticize us, azz does it enough for all of the community. Let him be the town cryer.

[smurfix]

All I see from the community council are attempts to drop kassetra, jdong and some other people.
Please kindly state who on the CC attempts to "drop" anybody from anything. I sure do not see any attempt of that kind. Nor does the CC have the power to do that in the first place.

I will not say more here, it's not going to be helpful.

[KiwiNZ]

I never tried to "get rid of her." I had issues about some things she said about Canonical. She actually left on her own for a while.

Maybe there were other users who have said bad things about her on IRC or something. I do not know about that.

I would appreciate it if people would not make assumptions as to my feelings.

I cannot sit on my hands on this one .
AZZ that is a blatant lie . I was envolved with a group of staff that wanted some changes a while back that included AZZ. I distanced myself when it became a vendetta.
AZZ you actively campaigned for Kassetra and Ubuntugeek to be removed.
I cannot believe that you have the nerve to state that you never wanted her gone.
I shake my head in disbelief ....

[agger]

OK, I've been reading up on threads the last couple of days, and here's my take, an uninvolved person's take, so to speak:

A forum moderator and avid contributer created a script to automate the installation of codecs, proprietary drivers etc. to make installation easier for a new user.

That is well and good - we all appreciate it.

This user, however, did not want his work to be ripped off or forked, so
he released it under a non-GPL compatible license, banning
redistribution without the author's explicit content.

The script, however, allegedly used code from another script called
EasyUbuntu which was released under the GPL. This made the terms of the
new script illegal as they violate the GPL. Not a big matter and one
that should be easily corrected, but ...

When the author of the original script politely pointed this out, the
thread in which he did so was deleted. Other forum members objected to
this, and the moderator/author of the new script reacted in a very
hostile way to any discussion of his licensing terms, closing threads
and deleting messages in the process. Some (not all!) of the other forum
moderators have also reacted aggressively to peaceful discussion of the
licensing issues as well as to forum policies, reacting with gems like
"shut the f*** up" and "we moderate as we see fit".

This is not good, and that kind of attitude makes the forums a bad face
for Ubuntu.

I should say, as a bare minimum, all forum moderators should sign the
Ubuntu code of conduct and abide by it at all times.

Also, all developing contributors should know enough about licensing to
know that

1) It's important in a free software community that free software
licenses like GPL and BSD-style licenses are respected

2) If some developer apparently violates a free software license, s/he
should enter the discussion and explain why this is not so or correct
the situation as a matter of course, not grudgingly.

And this is an outlook WITHOUT being on any of the sides.
Some moderators have been WAY out of line, and we frankly need this to be acknowledged. We also need it to be acknowledged in a better way than by this message to be deleted and me being banned ... sorry just being paranoid here

[agger]

The Doc itself is not just a third party source of documentation. Again all you see is something to go against the Wiki. I see a collection of data , some that may duplicate the wiki, other data that doesnt. Its existence will only be forced down because I choose it. Are you taking the rights I have to express myself, to allow others to express themselves , away?
--

I totally agree. The Doc is an excellent ressource, and anyone who wants is welcome and able to sync it with the Wiki the day s/he chooses to do so.

If doc.gwos.org is growing "at the expense" of the Wiki, this needs only last
until someone introduces whatever the Wiki is missing right there. Nobody's being snubbed in this respect.