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cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 02:57 AM
I recently submitted an article (http://chris.pirillo.com/2008/12/05/reasons-to-switch-from-os-x-or-windows-to-ubuntu/) to chris.pirillo.com about switching to Ubuntu. I would love to have all of you leave a comment and lend support. Yes, so I can win (though I do not hold out high hopes)... but more importantly to support Ubuntu and Linux.

The comments are moderated so they will not show up immediately, but you do not need to register. So that non-Ubuntu folks can see your responses please leave them on that site. Feel free to bump this thread and say that you have added your comment.

Thanks,

PrivateVoid

Rocket2DMn
December 7th, 2008, 03:01 AM
PrivateVoid, as I commented in the article, I think you did a good job of keeping it short and sweet for novices. Good luck!

grazed
December 7th, 2008, 03:04 AM
holy crap, look at those prizes. i can't believe someone gets ALL of them. =P

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 03:17 AM
holy crap, look at those prizes. i can't believe someone gets ALL of them. =P

Neither could I...

(( secretly hopes that I win...))

May the power of the Ubuntu forums be unleashed

/me evil laugh

eternalnewbee
December 7th, 2008, 03:53 AM
There. Added my voice.
One little problem: I made a mistake, but can't edit...

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 04:17 AM
There. Added my voice.
One little problem: I made a mistake, but can't edit...

Ah, do not worry about the edit... thanks for the comment.

x0as
December 7th, 2008, 04:20 AM
If the default style is not to your liking can customize your desktop. You can make it look just like OS X, Windows XP or Windows Vista. The choice is yours, not theirs! Beyond the look and feel you also have the freedom to choose between thousands of programs.

Gnome, kde, fluxbox etc all run on OS X so it can look exactly the same as linux, most linux programs have been ported to OS X.


The security of OS X and Vista are similar, but still only require a user to agree to running the application. The ease of doing so results in most users hitting the OK button before they engage their brain. With Linux you often have to mark files as executable and you have to know that you want to run them with administrative rights before you launch them.

Ever used OS X? you need to enter your password to install programs just like you do in linux. OS X is unix hence files have to be marked executable just like linux. Regardless of what the haters think OS X is just as secure as linux.


While both Microsoft Windows and Apple OS X come with a nice selection of included software, neither can beat the vast software library available in the Ubuntu repositories.

http://www.macports.org/ports.php 5000+ packages enough for you?


For most users, the process takes roughly 15-20 minutes and when it is done you are greeted with a fully functioning computer complete with productivity applications

Until you find your wireless doesn't work or xorg doesn't start.

eternalnewbee
December 7th, 2008, 04:20 AM
Ah, do not worry about the edit... thanks for the comment.
My pleasure.

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 04:38 AM
Gnome, kde, fluxbox etc all run on OS X so it can look exactly the same as linux, most linux programs have been ported to OS X.

Interesting... I did not know that... I did not think that OS X used xorg... I would love to get a link to a how-to on replacing their GUI. I assume I can run all the OS X native apps after I have done that; right?



Ever used OS X? you need to enter your password to install programs just like you do in linux. OS X is unix hence files have to be marked executable just like linux. Regardless of what the haters think OS X is just as secure as linux.

Actually is Linux if you download a program you usually can not automatically run it and be prompted for your password. Usually you have to use gksu or sudo. In OS X you can download and tell the program to launch and be prompted for your password. Similar, but a little bit easier than under Linux.


http://www.macports.org/ports.php 5000+ packages enough for you?

I have more than that in Linux and I am happy there.


Until you find your wireless doesn't work or xorg doesn't start.

The key point though is that I do not have to spend $400-500 more to get OS X... in fact for a decent Linux laptop my cost would be much lower.

I do hope you entered your comment at the site... it is a valuable contribution.

In the end a person's choice of OS is up to them... If you prefer OS X that is fine. I prefer Ubuntu and GNU/Linux.

grazed
December 7th, 2008, 04:48 AM
Gnome, kde, fluxbox etc all run on OS X so it can look exactly the same as linux, most linux programs have been ported to OS X.



Ever used OS X? you need to enter your password to install programs just like you do in linux. OS X is unix hence files have to be marked executable just like linux. Regardless of what the haters think OS X is just as secure as linux.



http://www.macports.org/ports.php 5000+ packages enough for you?



Until you find your wireless doesn't work or xorg doesn't start.

i don't think OP was looking for a debate.

regardless, KDE, Gnome, and fluxbox are a royal pain to get working correctly, let alone how unstable it can be in OSX. you can't argue the fact that linux, hands down has more window manager/desktop environment options that are stable, and don't need excessive hacking to get working properly.

you saying "most packages ported to OSX" is just wrong. take a look at the package count that you linked. repos you can use with ubuntu are approaching 20k packages last time i checked. FAR more than OSX will ever have in the foreseeable future.

and lastly, yes, people run into the occasional hardware issue with linux in general. but you need to look at it in whole and see that linux covers 20x the hardware that OSX does, INCLUDING Macs.

i noticed your fanboy comment in your sig. funny how hypocritical your post was. =P

x0as
December 7th, 2008, 04:54 AM
Interesting... I did not know that... I did not think that OS X used xorg... I would love to get a link to a how-to on replacing their GUI. I assume I can run all the OS X native apps after I have done that; right?


X11 is on the install DVD, installing gnome on a macbook http://wnugroho.wordpress.com/2007/08/06/gnome-on-mac/ There's a guide to setting it so just gnome runs but I can't find it now :(


Actually is Linux if you download a program you usually can not automatically run it and be prompted for your password. Usually you have to use gksu or sudo. In OS X you can download and tell the program to launch and be prompted for your password. Similar, but a little bit easier than under Linux.

Except on linux you don't need sudo to run software, a user can chmod a file executable and run it.


The key point though is that I do not have to spend $400-500 more to get OS X... in fact for a decent Linux laptop my cost would be much lower.

No denying you can buy a linux laptop cheaper if your not set on size etc. I wanted a lightish 13" laptop with 5 hours battery life which at the time really meant a macbook or a dell xps 1330m, both of which were around £600 for the same specs. 15" opens up a much bigger market where the macbook pro isn't worth the extra money.


In the end a person's choice of OS is up to them... If you
prefer OS X that is fine. I prefer Ubuntu and GNU/Linux.

I don't prefer either, I've got OS X, ubuntu 8.10 & xp installed. It's one of the things I really like about the macbook, I can easily run software for any of the 3 main OS's.

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 04:56 AM
grazed:

No I was not looking for a debate...

I am glad you clarified that while putting other WM/DE on OS X can be done that it is not stable... I am forced to use OS X and Vista at work and I was going to give replacing the WM/DE a shot on Monday... now I may not invest the time.

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 04:58 AM
Except on linux you don't need sudo to run software, a user can chmod a file executable and run it..

Two things:

1. While a user can chmod it they can not grant the application administrative rights unless they sudo or gksu it.

2. If a user has to chmod an app to let it run is that not harder than just executing it and entering your password?

x0as
December 7th, 2008, 05:00 AM
i don't think OP was looking for a debate.


I'm not having a debate, just stopping misinformation being spread.


you saying "most packages ported to OSX" is just wrong. take a look at the package count that you linked. repos you can use with ubuntu are approaching 20k packages last time i checked. FAR more than OSX will ever have in the foreseeable future.

Your assuming that all the packages in the ubuntu repo's are separatly available for OS X, plus the fact that some of the packages are stuff that isn't needed on OS X.


i noticed your fanboy comment in your sig. funny how hypocritical your post was. =P

If I was going to post a fan boy comment I would have just screamed FUD on the linked article. Not hypocritical at all, just pointing out untrue facts. I'm not spreading FUD.

x0as
December 7th, 2008, 05:03 AM
Two things:

1. While a user can chmod it they can not grant the application administrative rights unless they sudo or gksu it.

2. If a user has to chmod an app to let it run is that not harder than just executing it and entering your password?

1. Which is the same as OS X, you still need a password to give admin rights.

grazed
December 7th, 2008, 05:07 AM
grazed:

No I was not looking for a debate...

I am glad you clarified that while putting other WM/DE on OS X can be done that it is not stable... I am forced to use OS X and Vista at work and I was going to give replacing the WM/DE a shot on Monday... now I may not invest the time.

of all of them, as far as i know, KDE is the closest to being production ready for OSX, though they still point at some instabilities. Vista/XP on the other hand is much farther behind. you can take a look at the related links here...

http://www.kde.org/download/

EDIT: there are also a bunch of windows shell replacements that are based on blackbox, such as BBlean, BB4win, and xoblite (my favorite)

there is also LDE for windows, litestep, and nexstep.

all of the above are, as far as i know, out of beta. the only issue is that most of them have ceased development in the past few years, with the exception of BB4win.

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 05:09 AM
1. Which is the same as OS X, you still need a password to give admin rights.

Unless my OS X or Ubuntu is different the process is slightly different and allows for more time in the users thinking process to pause and not do something stupid.

OS X:
Use browser to download program
Tell it to auto-run
Enter password on prompt

Ubuntu:
User browser to download program
Option 1:


Tell it to auto-run
It fails due to needing to be made executable

Option 2:


Tell it to save the file
CHMOD the file
run the file
Fails because it needs admin rights
run it using sudo or gksu

To me the fact that a program needs to be made executable is the step that allows the user to think... but after that if the program fails again because it needs admin rights... they have to do that to start with vs. after the program is launched.

I use Macs at work... but rarely ever add software so I could be wrong about the process.

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 07:48 AM
of all of them, as far as i know, KDE is the closest to being production ready for OSX, though they still point at some instabilities. Vista/XP on the other hand is much farther behind. you can take a look at the related links here...

http://www.kde.org/download/

EDIT: there are also a bunch of windows shell replacements that are based on blackbox, such as BBlean, BB4win, and xoblite (my favorite)

there is also LDE for windows, litestep, and nexstep.

all of the above are, as far as i know, out of beta. the only issue is that most of them have ceased development in the past few years, with the exception of BB4win.

Just noticed your edit on the Windows shell replacements... I will have to take a look at those.

JeffoOfMetal
December 7th, 2008, 10:02 AM
Neither could I...

(( secretly hopes that I win...))

May the power of the Ubuntu forums be unleashed

/me evil laugh

Lol, this isn't 4chan. you know. :lolflag:

Very good article, a little short for me, but good for novices. Keep it up and good luck in the contest, man!

billgoldberg
December 7th, 2008, 01:07 PM
Comment made, nice summary btw.

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 02:27 PM
Lol, this isn't 4chan. you know. :lolflag:

Very good article, a little short for me, but good for novices. Keep it up and good luck in the contest, man!

4chan? what is that? You have my curiosity up now.

kevdog
December 7th, 2008, 02:41 PM
I added a comment but you probably are not going to like my comments. I love Ubuntu, but I really don't think its ready for prime time yet -- particularly given the fiasco with video and wireless networking drivers. The myth you can run Ubuntu on any type of hardware -- is truly a myth. You are better served doing you research in order to avoid problem.

Additionally with Mac you can run both Windows and Mac programs. In ubuntu you cant. For example MSOffice doesnt run in Ubuntu. You can claim their are legitamate replacements for MSOffice (like OO), but in reality these represent poor replacements. Programs such as MsOffice and Photoshop are the defacto standard. You can run these in MAC, but not in Ubuntu.

If I was giving a gift of a computer to one of the member's of my family (all technical novices), it would definitely by a MAC. I suppose I would have to have the money to do this, however its truly both novice and expert ready. Ubuntu although easy to use for me, is definitely not novice ready.

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 03:12 PM
I added a comment but you probably are not going to like my comments. I love Ubuntu, but I really don't think its ready for prime time yet -- particularly given the fiasco with video and wireless networking drivers. The myth you can run Ubuntu on any type of hardware -- is truly a myth. You are better served doing you research in order to avoid problem.

Additionally with Mac you can run both Windows and Mac programs. In ubuntu you cant. For example MSOffice doesnt run in Ubuntu. You can claim their are legitamate replacements for MSOffice (like OO), but in reality these represent poor replacements. Programs such as MsOffice and Photoshop are the defacto standard. You can run these in MAC, but not in Ubuntu.

If I was giving a gift of a computer to one of the member's of my family (all technical novices), it would definitely by a MAC. I suppose I would have to have the money to do this, however its truly both novice and expert ready. Ubuntu although easy to use for me, is definitely not novice ready.

Kevdog - all comments are welcome. If Ubuntu was able to restrict the hardware it needed to support like Apple does there would likely be no issues with hardware support. To be honest what GNU/Linux is able to support is astounding to me.

Swarms
December 7th, 2008, 04:11 PM
I really hate these lists. Instead of wasting energy trying to persuade people by promising them something that Ubuntu can not actually give, people should help move Ubuntu there. People will just get dissapointed the other way around.

billgoldberg
December 7th, 2008, 04:14 PM
I really hate these lists. Instead of wasting energy trying to persuade people by promising them something that Ubuntu can not actually give, people should help move Ubuntu there. People will just get dissapointed the other way around.

Are you disappointed with Ubuntu?

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 04:19 PM
I really hate these lists. Instead of wasting energy trying to persuade people by promising them something that Ubuntu can not actually give, people should help move Ubuntu there. People will just get dissapointed the other way around.

Feel free to comment on the article over there... the more opinions that are posted the better... I am really curious what promises I made that are not kept.

kevdog
December 7th, 2008, 04:34 PM
Kevdog - all comments are welcome. If Ubuntu was able to restrict the hardware it needed to support like Apple does there would likely be no issues with hardware support. To be honest what GNU/Linux is able to support is astounding to me.

Yes it is quite amazing, however it takes work to get older hardware (and some newer hardware working). With MACS and Windows, this usually is not the case. This is a big problem for many that have never had to do any installation troubleshooting before. In fact -- this is the main purpose of a lot of these forums is to provide installation/configuration support.

In addition to touting Ubuntu's benefits, I believe its also quite powerful to expose its weaknesses. No other product promotion does this, however I believe transparency is very valuable. I use Ubuntu, but am also very open about its problems as well. Only by admitting areas that are problematic, can the developers or 3rd party developers improve on the product.

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 05:09 PM
Yes it is quite amazing, however it takes work to get older hardware (and some newer hardware working). With MACS and Windows, this usually is not the case. This is a big problem for many that have never had to do any installation troubleshooting before. In fact -- this is the main purpose of a lot of these forums is to provide installation/configuration support.

In addition to touting Ubuntu's benefits, I believe its also quite powerful to expose its weaknesses. No other product promotion does this, however I believe transparency is very valuable. I use Ubuntu, but am also very open about its problems as well. Only by admitting areas that are problematic, can the developers or 3rd party developers improve on the product.


Well said Kevdog... the format was a top five article though (rules) so I was not sure that talking about the positives and negatives would have been in format.

phrostbyte
December 7th, 2008, 05:33 PM
It would be funny if you won a contest (partly?) sponsored by Microsoft with an Ubuntu article. But yes, I commented. Good luck man.

Swarms
December 7th, 2008, 05:44 PM
Are you disappointed with Ubuntu?
No I am not, but that is because I am "tech" enough to be able to work around its flaws, but I would not recommend it to my mom/sister/grandmother, not yet. They would get dissapointed.
Bear in mind I find Ubuntu great, and i think it has forces and possibilities that no other OS has.

Ok gonna add some more points:
Freedom
The normal user is not interesting in experiementing with different styles of desktop. They want an default look, where they change the wallpaper and nothing more. But this of course demands that the user find the default look satisfying, something Ubuntu won't deliver.
Secure
I do not know if Ubuntu is safer than OSX, but they are pretty much at the same level, and therefore not really an argument for the OSX people. For Vista I could not agree more. But that is also because the higher the marketshare = bigger the target for virus (and that includes OSX and Ubuntu too).
Lower cost
That is true, however, Ubuntu is not able to give the same possibilities in games and products like Openoffice and Photoshop. So you do not pay for the same thing.
Community
I love the Ubuntu community, its a great place to chat and socialise. But in ideal, people shouldn't have problems that would require them to visit the forums seeking help. When they get a computer with the OS preinstalled, everything should just work for their daily tasks as surfing the web, writing emails, gaming etc.
So in some way you could say that the community is a great product of a bad situation.
Ease of installation
People buy an mac, everything is installed and they will not have to think about setting anything up.
This is what Ubuntu should strive for too, get preinstalled more. And deliver an actual product people are going to stick with.

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 06:18 PM
No I am not, but that is because I am "tech" enough to be able to work around its flaws, but I would not recommend it to my mom/sister/grandmother, not yet. They would get dissapointed.
Bear in mind I find Ubuntu great, and i think it has forces and possibilities that no other OS has.

My daughter started using Ubuntu when she was six and now she is eight... she never comes and asks for my help...

Swarms
December 7th, 2008, 06:24 PM
My daughter started using Ubuntu when she was six and now she is eight... she never comes and asks for my help...

That is great and I am glad to hear about it. But few examples doesn't reflect the rest of the world. They won't be as smart as your daughter seems to be.

Btw., read my last post, it has been updated.

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 06:48 PM
That is great and I am glad to hear about it. But few examples doesn't reflect the rest of the world. They won't be as smart as your daughter seems to be.

Btw., read my last post, it has been updated.


Some choose a little work and freedom of choice... others choose no work and freedom from choice. Everyone has to be happy with their choice... and no one choice is perfect.

cardinals_fan
December 7th, 2008, 08:52 PM
Apple and OS X offers freedom from choice. Microsoft and Windows offers you freedom of hardware choice. Ubuntu and GNU/Linux offer you total freedom. You can choose the graphical interface of your OS and are not stuck with what the denizens Redmond or Cupertino chose for you. With Ubuntu, you can choose the default look and feel of Gnome, KDE or Xfce. If the default style is not to your liking can customize your desktop. You can make it look just like OS X, Windows XP or Windows Vista. The choice is yours, not theirs! Beyond the look and feel you also have the freedom to choose between thousands of programs.
I don't know if I buy that. Choosing a window manager is easier on Linux, but you can always install X11 on a Mac or use an alternative desktop shell on Windows.

Despite the bleating noise coming from Cupertino about OS X not having any exploits and the daydreams of Redmond that Vista is now truly secure, neither solution offers the security of Ubuntu and GNU/Linux. The greatest threats to computer security are no longer viruses or worms. They are trojan horses delivered through clever social engineering attacks. Such attacks often depend on a user to run an install or agree to a pop-up. Windows XP had no built-in security to defend against these exploits. The security of OS X and Vista are similar, but still only require a user to agree to running the application. The ease of doing so results in most users hitting the OK button before they engage their brain. With Linux you often have to mark files as executable and you have to know that you want to run them with administrative rights before you launch them. While it is still possible to fool a Linux user into running malware, the likelihood is greatly diminished due to the number of steps it takes. For OS X and Vista the user experience still trumps security.
Not so much. It takes no more effort to trick a user on Ubuntu than on Windows/OS X.

*downloads .deb*
*double-clicks*
*enters password automatically*
*screen goes black*

These are just nitpicks; overall, a pretty good article.

Swarms
December 7th, 2008, 09:13 PM
Some choose a little work and freedom of choice... others choose no work and freedom from choice. Everyone has to be happy with their choice... and no one choice is perfect.
It seems like the majority is fine living without choices they don't need anyway. Hence the popularity of OSX and Windows.

cprofitt
December 7th, 2008, 11:13 PM
It takes no more effort to trick a user on Ubuntu than on Windows/OS X.

Perhaps that is a false impression I have, but on a Mac you do not need to mark it as executable... is that not accurate?

cardinals_fan
December 7th, 2008, 11:18 PM
Perhaps that is a false impression I have, but on a Mac you do not need to mark it as executable... is that not accurate?
I don't know as much as I should about OS X, but a malicious .deb is just as damaging as a malicious script.

Also, while limited permissions are a real necessity to prevent spreading any malware the user might be foolish enough to get, most people store their data in their home directory anyway.

cprofitt
December 8th, 2008, 03:29 AM
I see where you are coming from Cardinal.

cprofitt
December 8th, 2008, 01:17 PM
Well... dunno what happened but I had 45 comments last night and was in third place...

Now I have 29.

They claim people were posting more than once or that the comments were insipid.

The odd thing is the other two articles lost one comment each... I lost 16... The OS X article is currently at 61 and the iPod article is now at 45.

Ah, well....

For those that have not checked out the article you can do so here (http://chris.pirillo.com/2008/12/05/reasons-to-switch-from-os-x-or-windows-to-ubuntu/). My vision of winning a Microsoft context with an Ubuntu article and using the Touchsmart to show off Ubuntu at local events is no more.

Thanks to those who posted comments. (not to those that apparently double posted though)