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Thread: Firefox 1.5 Backport

  1. #161
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    Quote Originally Posted by Limulus
    But getting back to your comments about setup, I suspect its really that way for most OSs; just think how much better Windows would be for a newbie if you got an expert in to setup all the antivirus, antimalware, firewall, misc. security stuff, put Firefox and Thunderbird on, maybe even remove Windows Media player and replace it with one of the alternatives... that sort of thing.
    I agree with this, too (after all, that's why "The Geek Squad" exists--I know people who actually pay "professionals" to install a CD-ROM they bought... I'm not kidding), but I think Windows actually isn't for the novice user even after it's been set up properly. If the novice user isn't administrator, she can't even change the time on her computer or install Windows security updates! Yet, if she is the administrator, it's very easy for her to screw the whole installation.

    On Ubuntu, however, you can make a novice user the sudo user and not have her screw things up accidentally if you don't give her a gksudo nautilus button or a handbook of commands like rm and chmod. She can still change the time on her clock, install software safely through Synaptic Package Manager and not endanger her entire installation.
    Last edited by aysiu; January 14th, 2006 at 05:00 PM.

  2. #162
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    I've been a distro hopper for quite a while. I'm sure I've done more installs of different flavors of Linux and BSD, in less time than a lot of people. I have chosen to stick with (k)ubuntu because it has the promise of making things easy for novice users. I've encourage friends and family that have been plagued with viruses and other problems on windows to switch to ubuntu as well.

    I don't live on the forums or have a billion posts, but I do read them. I am a member of the ubuntu community and I find it very insulting when the response to a little constructive criticism is essentially "Like it or leave it". I have made an effort to contribute what I can to the kubuntu community. The Kubuntu KDM and Splash themes that I made have been downloaded by many people and are rated well. Not everyone likes them or sees the need to use anything other than the default themes, but at least kubuntu users have one more option. I also plan on releasing updated versions under GPL and possibly a window dec theme for kubuntu when I have more time in a couple of weeks. So don't think that because people are not devs or because they don't have programing skills that they can't contribute to this community.

    If I was personally capable of fixing this issue to my liking, believe me I would. But I'm not, so the most I can do on this matter is state my opinion and ideas. Some of you feel, it's a waist of time to discuss this here since the ubuntu devs don't read these forums. That's their problem not mine. The ubuntu devs should concider looking at these forums once in a while, it might help them make decisions that would benefit more people. In any case it shouldn't prevent us from discussing these types of issues.

  3. #163
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    Quote Originally Posted by jbus
    I am a member of the ubuntu community and I find it very insulting when the response to a little constructive criticism is essentially "Like it or leave it".

    Some of you feel, it's a waist of time to discuss this here since the ubuntu devs don't read these forums. That's their problem not mine. The ubuntu devs should concider looking at these forums once in a while, it might help them make decisions that would benefit more people.
    I don't see why the developers should have to scour the forums for suggestions when forum members have a way of directly communicating suggestions to the developers. That's dumb--I'm sorry, but it is.

    And, yes, I do think it's silly, too, to think that the forums are a place to voice "constructive criticism." It's about as useful as me complaining to my wife about government policy rather than writing letters to my local congressperson. If you just want to blow off steam, that's understandable, but why you think the forums are a good venue for "constructive criticism" is beyond me.

    For more on what you can do to make a difference, read this or this.

  4. #164
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    I do know how to reach the developers and even Mark S. I made my posts to help people - the community - see that there are other viewpoints and type of users than themselves.

    Its is not strange at all that you see my opinion here; it was my response to other viewpoints etc.
    Last edited by kaaredyret; January 14th, 2006 at 08:53 PM.

  5. #165
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    Quote Originally Posted by aysiu
    Unfortunately, Ubuntu's target audience is not its main body of users. I think Ubuntu is designed to be installed by a Linux expert (or novice who's willing to learn to be an expert) and used by a computer novice.
    You mean like your furnace? Or your car engine? This is why we have IT departments.

  6. #166
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    Quote Originally Posted by angrykeyboarder
    Gecko is still alive and well. It is the HTML rendering engine for all Mozilla products. I'd just never seen Gecko abbreviated as "GRE" before.
    Gecko is alive and well, but the GRE is a dead project. Or at least has been reincarnated as XULRunner. Sort of, maybe? It's hard to tell. The reason you've never seen it is probably because they stopped talking about it years ago. To the consternation of many.

    Quote Originally Posted by angrykeyboarder
    I'm not sure what you mean here. I assumed because so many apps in GNOME relied on Firefox, they were actually relying on it's "GRE".
    If you can't install the GRE by itself, though, they have to rely on Firefox to provide it. It's not factored out.

    Quote Originally Posted by angrykeyboarder
    Are you sure GNOME chose this and not Ubuntu? I know that GNOME relies on GTKhtml2. And it's part of Ubuntu as well. I'd thought yelp uses the gtkhtml2 engine, but I guess not. I know Straw does. Liferea allows you to choose.

    Off the top of my head, the only part of GNOME that relies on Gecko is
    Epiphany, which Ubuntu chooses not to include in it's default installation to begin with. I wish they would, then they could tie all thoes upteen apps to it instead of Firefox. Firefox is much more popular.
    Dependency of:
    OOo2
    libgecko-cil
    galeon
    beagle
    yelp
    libdevhelp
    gnome-app-install

    I'm not sure what the specific issues, but I trust that jdong knows what he's talking about when he says it's tied in tightly. It's also possible that things like the SSL and plugin libraries would have to be updated, and there's additional applications that rely on those. I can't say whether it's a Gnome or a Ubuntu decision, but that's the way it is.


    Quote Originally Posted by angrykeyboarder
    Better yet, why not just include the Gecko libraries and then tie all those apps that rely on Firefox to it instead?

    BTW, these are basically rehetorical questions.
    This is exactly what the GRE was supposed to be. That was my point. But Mozilla doesn't seem to care.

  7. #167
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    To those of you who was asking for a .deb
    If you care enough to go through the thread someone mentioned posting a .deb that puts FF1.5 into the /opt directory only works if you delete the old firefox tho.
    Since I get asked alot, I am originally from Ukraine but am Russian by nationality. My nick means specter in Russian.

  8. #168
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    there are many posts declaring that installing applications in ubuntu should be more intuitive, frequently comparing to the user experience of windows.

    i think that it's important to look at competing (and when i say that i mean "stuff for the same general purposes") software and see what they're doing that works well for users to get ideas for the target software - in this case, ubuntu - but there are a few things to keep in mind:
    • windows is one piece of software. ubuntu is another. firefox is yet another. a lot of this thread is spent arguing and discussing a combination of software which makes up only 1 small part of the entire user experience. sure, they're all popular software titles, but demanding that ubuntu immediately have 1-click install support for firefox 1.5, which i understand has some issues which have made it a little more difficult to package than before, is asking too much. i mean, the forum IS here for us to voice our opinions, but like others have said, there is a release cycle to keep in mind. ff1.5 will come, it's just not going to come at the speed some people want it.
    • if we are going to compare to windows, we have to take the bad with the good. many have praised the windows installation method as being easy - that's IF everything goes as expected. that's IF you, the winxp/ff user notices the little red update button in the upper right corner, clicks it, and updates it successfully. i should also note that this method of upgrading firefox is not completely obvious to everyone, nor does it follow some standard upgrading protocol in windows. in fact, the only thing the windows OS is going to help you update/upgrade/patch is the OS itself. you're on your own for most of the applications, except the one's that are prebundled, microsoft products. so imagine you're a windows xp user now. you're using firefox 1.0.7 and want to upgrade to the latest. you still have to go online and figure out how, whether it be a M$ forum, a knowledge base, or the mozilla site. the information you find will be different that what we, the ubuntu users find, but it's going to be just as mystifying to the basic user. regardless of OS, the basic user is always going to have difficulty when the OS doesn't behave as expected.
    • also, we can't argue that windows has 1 way to install/upgrade everything. there are the windows updates (can be done through the system tray or by going to the site manually or by clicking windows update in the program menu), the windows catalog(program menu or manually entering site), notifications from within specific software titles which manage themselves, upgrading the software through the 'help' menu on some software, manual installations, installations automated by exe'd zip files... maybe more. those of you who have proposed 1 installation method have proposed a concept which has not yet been implemented by any operating system that i'm aware of, and i personally don't think it's a good idea at all.


    now i'm going to stop comparing ubuntu to windows because while it's important to consider what's working (most of the time) for the competition, each OS needs to have its own strengths and consequently, its weaknesses.

    personally, i've used ubuntu with ff1.0.7 and with 1.5. i honestly noticed no difference, but there must be one since everyone is raving about it. but more importantly, i'm not sure i understand the rationale of wanting - no, EXPECTING everything handed to us as we see fit. that's not to say we shouldn't ask and show support for software upgrades through apt or synaptec - we should. but we need to be aware of the difference between suggesting and expecting. if we take the attitude that a "problem" is not a barrier but an opportunity, then we have a model for self-improvement, software improvement, and mutual benefit - in short: the GNU way.

    the people who have suggested "take it or leave it" are not responding with hostility (well maybe they are, what do i know) - they're pointing out our options. it sounds blunt, but when i read a post like that, rather than get pissed, i usually sit back and think: that's true, i do have that option! it's yet another opportunity to do something else - something new. i'm glad i have that option.

    so if you're still lamenting the ff1.5 thing, please realize the scope of the situation, the reality of what other OS users deal with (not the rose-colored one but the real one), the opportunity YOU have to make this better, and the alternatives. Keeping these things in mind keeps me in a very balanced place. I hope it will serve someone else to think this way too.

  9. #169
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    Quote Originally Posted by macleod199
    Gecko is alive and well, but the GRE is a dead project. Or at least has been reincarnated as XULRunner. Sort of, maybe? It's hard to tell. The reason you've never seen it is probably because they stopped talking about it years ago. To the consternation of many.
    It is planned to have Firefox 3 ship on top of XULRunner. It is expected that Firefox 3 will release in Q1 2007.

  10. #170
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    I filed this one a while ago, and thought I should mention it here https://launchpad.net/products/firefox/+bug/32083

    thanks.

    PS. I honestly didn't read all of the thread (17 pages) - sorry...

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