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Thread: Firefox 1.5 Backport

  1. #111
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    Quote Originally Posted by jbus

    The moment I tell my mother, sister, cousin, grand parents and friends to follow instructions on a "wiki" or to install a binary from Mozilla that kills all their plugins in order to upgrade their browsers to the latest version, they are going to be wishing they hadn't switched from Windows.
    Umm, that's simply the nature of having dependent ABI's change, and happens on any OS.


    If I can have a bleeding edge version of SUSE (SLICK) on my laptop that gives me all the latest and greatest software KDE3.5, FF1.5, Etc.... through APT and have the system still continue to WORK, then I'm sure there is a way for a distro as large and popular as ubuntu to offer bleeding edge apps as an option to its users as well.
    You'll meet a breakage soon. Trust me. It's the same idea as Gentoo.
    At this point using Dapper is clearly not an option if you intend on having a working system. So, isn't there another way this could be accomplished?
    The integration of a Klick type system into Ubuntu.
    Quote Originally Posted by tuxradar
    Linux's audio architecture is more like the layers of the Earth's crust than the network model, with lower levels occasionally erupting on to the surface, causing confusion and distress, and upper layers moving to displace the underlying technology that was originally hidden

  2. #112
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    Quote Originally Posted by jbus
    If I can have a bleeding edge version of SUSE (SLICK) on my laptop that gives me all the latest and greatest software KDE3.5, FF1.5, Etc.... through APT and have the system still continue to WORK, then I'm sure there is a way for a distro as large and popular as ubuntu to offer bleeding edge apps as an option to its users as well.

    At this point using Dapper is clearly not an option if you intend on having a working system. So, isn't there another way this could be accomplished?

    There's a couple of issues here.

    First of all, this is to a large extent Mozilla's fault. When the 0.x releases of Phoenix/Thunderbird started coming out 3+ years ago, much hue and cry was raised about the increased memory size of loading the same rendering engine twice. "Don't worry," Mozilla said, "we're factoring out the common bits as the GRE soon. No problemo." Where is our GRE now? Nowhere.

    While Firefox isn't really as integrated with Linux as IE is with Windows, it's getting close. Anything that needs to render HTML tends to use it's engine to do it, and therefore depends on a certain version of it's API/ABI. Really they only need the GRE, but there's no option to factor that out as of yet, becuase Mozilla abadoned a lot of core rendering engine projects to focus on new features and options and whatnot. I saw several comments from one core developer who was ready to leave the project because his complaints about changes that broke embedded uses of the engine were being ignored.

    Once there is a GRE (now spun off into this XULRunner project I don't really understand), it will be a lot easier for standard package based distros to deal with stuff like this. As is Firefox is deep in the system, and it's hard to change it without changing the solar system of packages built up around it. Which a stable distro does not do.


    The other issue is Ubuntu's release cycle. It's 6 months, which is pretty freaking fast and not that long to wait for new stable releases of everything, if you ask me. I especially like that they've pinned it to Gnome's release schedule, so you get new releases of Gnome a few weeks after they're released. Not even Gentoo usually has them stable by that point. Projects not tied to Gnome may just slightly miss the release schedule, causing these several month lags.

    I'm not sure about SuSe, but AFAIK they're still on a 'when it's ready' release schedule, which has it's own pitfalls. It was apparently a priority for them to get Firefox 1.5 out in a stable release as soon as possible, and they scheduled around it.

    When you're choosing a distro, remember what you're choosing - a distribution. And make sure their distribution priorities coincide with yours, or you're going to be disappointed. The look and feel can be configured away to a large degree, so it's really the most important distinction.

  3. #113
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    Quote Originally Posted by macleod199
    There's a couple of issues here.

    "Don't worry," Mozilla said, "we're factoring out the common bits as the GRE soon. No problemo." Where is our GRE now? Nowhere.
    WI GRE?

    While Firefox isn't really as integrated with Linux as IE is with Windows, it's getting close. Anything that needs to render HTML tends to use it's engine to do it, and therefore depends on a certain version of it's API/ABI.

    And therein lies a big problem that needs to be fixed. No single application should be depended upon by so many other applications.

    What if I have an aversion to Firefox? I should be able to uninstall it. But based on this, if I do, it will take 16 other applications with it and/or possibly cripple my system.

    The other issue is Ubuntu's release cycle. It's 6 months, which is pretty freaking fast and not that long to wait for new stable releases of everything, if you ask me.
    It depends on one's definition of "stable" I suppose. There was quite a bit of criticism that Breezy was buggier than usual (in part because it was "rushed" to meet the deadline).

    I especially like that they've pinned it to Gnome's release schedule, so you get new releases of Gnome a few weeks after they're released. Not even Gentoo usually has them stable by that point. Projects not tied to Gnome may just slightly miss the release schedule, causing these several month lags.
    Depending on what the "project" is, users may or may not care, but if it's something major and with lots of publicity (e.g. Firefox, OpenOffice.org) there's going to be outcry.

    Ubuntu was well aware of the release schedule for Firefox and OpenOffice.org they had three options.

    1). Ignore it (as they did).

    2) Delay release for a month so that they could include Firefox 1.5 and OpenOffice.org 2

    3) Update OpenOffice.org and Firefox in the current Ubuntu release (Breezy in this case) when they came out.

    #3 Makes the most sense to me, but I could live with #2 as well.

    Personally I'd like to see Ubuntu do that and adopt the Fedora Project's release schedule. It's also every 6 months but it's "approximately" every 6 months..

    All they needed was one more month and a lot of us wouldn't be complaining now.

    When you're choosing a distro, remember what you're choosing - a distribution. And make sure their distribution priorities coincide with yours, or you're going to be disappointed. The look and feel can be configured away to a large degree, so it's really the most important distinction.
    I chose Ubuntu because I'm not nerdy enough to use Linux from Scratch. I don't know of any better out there.

    Nothing is perfect. It would be nice to see a Linux distro accept suggestions and feedback from non-propeller-heads on occasion.
    Scott
    © 2010 angrykeyboarder™ & Elmer Fudd. All Wites Wesewved.
    I never used an OS that I didn't (dis)like.
    I'm angrykeyboarder™ and I approved this message.

  4. #114
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    Quote Originally Posted by angrykeyboarder
    WI GRE?
    .......
    I chose Ubuntu because I'm not nerdy enough to use Linux from Scratch. I don't know of any better out there.

    Nothing is perfect. It would be nice to see a Linux distro accept suggestions and feedback from non-propeller-heads on occasion.
    Hey, I'm one of the "Propeller-heads" who has asked for the easy-peasy 1.5 package.....

    BTW, I did the manual install of FF 1.5 last week, and apart from a few manual things like copying over all of my plug-ins to the new location where I put the files, it went extremely smoothly (and my 1.07 version still works).

    About the hardest thing was creating a Launcher for the new version......

    It still seems strange to me that someone couldn't package the binary and the few commands to do these miscellaneous things in a nice simple "Firefox1.5-interim" package to be installed via Synaptic from one of the Ubuntu repositories.

    Anyway, here's exactly what I did:

    http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php...&postcount=315
    Regards, David.
    Please use the Forum search and Wiki search for immediate help
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  5. #115

    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    Quote Originally Posted by dcstar
    It still seems strange to me that someone couldn't package the binary and the few commands to do these miscellaneous things in a nice simple "Firefox1.5-interim" package to be installed via Synaptic from one of the Ubuntu repositories.
    My feelings exactly. How hard could it be? What harm would it do? Hell, I would do it if I knew how and had write access to the repositories. Is there some sort of comittee that we could petition to or something? Bitching about it on a forum is all well and good but it's not getting any results. How can we be more effective? (damn, I sound like a suit from work ).

    Later...
    Corrado

  6. #116
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    Quote Originally Posted by angrykeyboarder
    WI GRE?

    While Firefox isn't really as integrated with Linux as IE is with Windows, it's getting close. Anything that needs to render HTML tends to use it's engine to do it, and therefore depends on a certain version of it's API/ABI.
    The GRE was (supposed?) to be the Gecko rendering engine. Basically the part that renders HTML, factored out so only one copy of it needed to be in memory at any given time. Note that this may not have necessarily fixed the problem that we're having now, but it could have helped.

    Quote Originally Posted by angrykeyboarder
    WI GRE?
    And therein lies a big problem that needs to be fixed. No single application should be depended upon by so many other applications.

    What if I have an aversion to Firefox? I should be able to uninstall it. But based on this, if I do, it will take 16 other applications with it and/or possibly cripple my system.
    Gnome chose to depend on the Mozilla renderer as I imagine they thought it was the most secure/stable/feature complete. OS X decided to depend on KDE's renderer for their own reasons. But I agree (and that's my point above), that the renderer should be a separate package. It's Mozilla's problem there.

    Quote Originally Posted by angrykeyboarder
    It depends on one's definition of "stable" I suppose. There was quite a bit of criticism that Breezy was buggier than usual (in part because it was "rushed" to meet the deadline).
    Quite possibly. They were partially burned by the delays in Xorg's schedule. I switched right to Dapper, so I can't really comment.


    Quote Originally Posted by angrykeyboarder
    Ubuntu was well aware of the release schedule for Firefox and OpenOffice.org they had three options.

    1). Ignore it (as they did).

    2) Delay release for a month so that they could include Firefox 1.5 and OpenOffice.org 2

    3) Update OpenOffice.org and Firefox in the current Ubuntu release (Breezy in this case) when they came out.

    #3 Makes the most sense to me, but I could live with #2 as well.
    I wouldn't say they ignored it. They looked at the release schedule, determined it would not be out in time to meet their release schedule, and rejected it. They did opt to include OO2 based on it's (slipped) release schedule (as can be seen by the inclusion of the pre-release in Breezy), and I'm a little baffled that the final version isn't in breezy-updates yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by angrykeyboarder
    Personally I'd like to see Ubuntu do that and adopt the Fedora Project's release schedule. It's also every 6 months but it's "approximately" every 6 months..

    All they needed was one more month and a lot of us wouldn't be complaining now.

    I chose Ubuntu because I'm not nerdy enough to use Linux from Scratch. I don't know of any better out there.

    Nothing is perfect. It would be nice to see a Linux distro accept suggestions and feedback from non-propeller-heads on occasion.
    Exactly. No mp3 player does exactly what I want, but I chose the one that was closest. At least Linux distros are more configurable and updateable after the fact, though. You pretty much have to choose the one that has the easiest delta between what you want and what's installed by default, but there will always be a delta. ubuntuguide.org made it really easy for me to cross that delta in the Hoary/Breezy era.

  7. #117
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    I am using most in my time back in Windows now... again. I could wait for the 1.0.x updates, but this time I wont. I lost enough sparetime on tweaking Ubuntu and getting things to work, I had to reinstall totally when Breezy didnt update anything but crushed my installation of Hoary, and now this?

    I am a casual user and a real demanding costumer... I didnt install Ubuntu as a hobby or anything, but to see if it could replace Windows/Office/whatever now that I use computers almost only at work and consider problems and tweaking and optimizing a waste of time. I really dont care why the delay is so long. Firefox 1.0.7 on Breezy is an annoying and slooow experience, and Firefox 1.5 on Windows runs fast. The choice is very simple.

    It really surprises me... the lastest version of Firefox and OOo should be EASY to install and made available as fast as possible, always. They are too damn important for Ubuntu. End users really dont care about explanations but about availability and usability. I trust that Mark S knows this and that it will get better with time. Right now, I just have to abandon Ubuntu for a while, fortunately most apps I use on Ubuntu are avalable for Windows, too.
    Last edited by kaaredyret; January 10th, 2006 at 04:55 PM.

  8. #118

    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    kaaredyret: The main problem is that Ubuntu strives for stable apps in a periodic release schedule, while some of its apps (e.g. Firefox) are in a relatively rapid state of flux and seem to release whenever (note that FF was originally supposed to come out with a 1.1 version in March, but they scrapped that). This was especially noticable in Breezy because it was released just prior to OO.o 2 and FF 1.5, so there's going to be a lag until the next stable release. This sort of thing is why Ubuntu got Backports in the first place, but Backports is only to pull relatively minor upgrades from the next version back into the current one.

    That being said, I have been paying attention to the efforts of people on this forum to get both of these working in Breezy and the solutions they've come up with are quite good.

    For OOo2 see this post (just use step 0a and 0b to install)

    For FF1.5, see post #102 of this thread (by "jasutton"). Copy the code into a text file and run it with sudo bash in Terminal; it will do the rest for you.

    Installing these are effectlvely no more difficult than installing them in Windows. I hope that solves things for you and lets you get back to using Ubuntu

  9. #119
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    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    Thanks a lot for the reply and help, Limulus

  10. #120

    Re: Firefox 1.5 Backport

    kaaredyret: Glad I could help

    My general philosophy with software is that if I'm having a problem, I'm probably not the first nor the only one... and even if I am, someone else will have the same problem soon too

    That's why forums are so great; people can discuss their problems and find out how others fixed them. Without this forum, I wouldn't be near as happy on Ubuntu as I am ^^;

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