Another What Linux Needs To Be Better thread

[Yfrwlf]

tar and tar.gz are compression formats simliar to .zip and .rar. They are just compressed data and not a binary so click and run should just be to uncompress them and last I checked this was the case in Ubuntu.

True, they were concerned because offering plain compressed binary packages is one of the methods currently for getting Linux software. Since these formats of course contain no data about where the files should be placed, it'd be difficult to have the package manager deal with them in the way they were supposed to be installed, but it still could deal with them. The package manager could offer to deal with the file, and it could store them in a special place for simple uncompressed binaries, and could either ask the user for a name for the program or just use the name of the compressed file. That way, the user could "uninstall" them from the manager interface. I don't know, just an idea, but of course a much better solution is that a standard package format/container replaces this compressed program distribution system.

.bzr is a package format similar to .deb, .rpm, etc and just needs the package manager installed for it to work. I don't know if multiple package managers can run together without causing problems, and I imagine they would cause all sorts of problems for the each other.

Unless the package manager was just a simple program which listened to a universal configuration file which told managers where the user wanted files placed, and if package managers dealt with dependency resolution issues in the same way because they and the package format had all the information necessary to cope with anything thrown at them (within a confined scope of some standard packaging API), then yes they could cope side by side I think.

I'd love it if things become that modular, but I think just making each package manager able to read multiple package formats would hopefully be enough.

.bin is just a disk image like .iso. You just need an extractor, and I think the one in ubuntu supports this you just have to associate it.

Actually I think .bin is used for binary files sometimes, but now I can't find any examples of it. >.< Oh and don't forget .run files. I don't know if a package manager could deal with all of these, well, I'm sure it could be done but perhaps it wouldn't be that appropriate. At the very least, any files which are based on scripts will be replaced with proper package formats, like .run and such, since there's no need to make a jerry-rigged script to accomplish what a simple package format will do and make much easier.

[madjr]

also wanted to add that even if ubuntu is the popular distro of the moment (just between geeks), things could change.

pre-installed base of other distros will overtake the linux market (not only ubuntu market):

Asus = xandros
HP = Suse
Lenovo = Suse
Dell = Ubuntu
Everex = gOS
Acer = Linpus linux (Taiwanese)
Zonbu = Zombu OS
Intel (classmate-pc) = Mandriva
Sears = Freespire
etc = etc

you see everyone is using a different distro and brand

no one distro will ever dominate. If the first experience is not good they go back to Windows or Mac, plain and simple.

They wont go looking for other distros (wth is a distro?), only geeks do that.


Standards need to be in place if we are ever to really compete with Mac and windows.

[cardinals_fan]

also wanted to add that even if ubuntu is the popular distro of the moment (just between geeks), things could change.

pre-installed base of other distros will overtake the linux market (not only ubuntu market):

Asus = xandros
HP = Suse
Lenovo = Suse
Dell = Ubuntu
Everex = gOS
Acer = Linpus linux (Taiwanese)
Zonbu = Zombu OS
Intel (classmate-pc) = Mandriva
Sears = Freespire
etc = etc

you see everyone is using a different distro and brand

no one distro will ever dominate. If the first experience is not good they go back to Windows or Mac, plain and simple.

They wont go looking for other distros (wth is a distro?), only geeks do that.


Standards need to be in place if we are ever to really compete with Mac and windows.

What's your point? People get the distro that comes with their PC. What's the problem?

The problem with standardized packages is that there is no one perfect format.

[aysiu]

no one distro will ever dominate.

It's possible that no one distro will ever dominate, but I don't know what you're basing this absolute statement on.

As a matter of fact, it's also very possible that one distro will dominate (at least for home consumers and businesses, not self-professed geeks).

All it takes is for one Linux preinstalled option to really take off. If that happens, whatever that distro is will likely become the dominant distro. And by "take off," I mean in an iPod way, not an Eee way.

[madjr]

What's your point? People get the distro that comes with their PC. What's the problem?

The problem with standardized packages is that there is no one perfect format.

there is no perfect format not because is not possible, but simply because the devs are not working together like the OP mentioned

[SunnyRabbiera]

The package installer unification thing has been played around with for years, I am opposed to it...

[madjr]

The package installer unification thing has been played around with for years, I am opposed to it...

cons ?

[Yfrwlf]

What's your point? People get the distro that comes with their PC. What's the problem?

The problem with standardized packages is that there is no one perfect format.

See the original post for the list of problems. These problems especially plague lesser-known distros. The point is your distro flavor of choice should not lock you into your selection of programs. The point is being able to install any program easily on Linux, regardless of where it's located, so that programs become actually sharable and distributable.

Again, if you still don't understand by now, all I can do is tell you that many users out there hate Linux because of it's limited ability to get stuff done and install software without being a master at programming due to fragmentation problems like the ones I've mentioned. If you want more use cases, I'll give you them, but hopefully you understand now. Regardless of what you believe, users are having big problems. If you want to help, you'll have to acknowledge this fact.

It's possible that no one distro will ever dominate, but I don't know what you're basing this absolute statement on.

As a matter of fact, it's also very possible that one distro will dominate (at least for home consumers and businesses, not self-professed geeks).

All it takes is for one Linux preinstalled option to really take off. If that happens, whatever that distro is will likely become the dominant distro. And by "take off," I mean in an iPod way, not an Eee way.

That's probably what Canonical, Novell, Red Hat, and others would love to see happen. Linux users choosing their distros just because of their software selection. That's not freedom. Freedom is being able to find, install, and use a program regardless of where it's located. Freedom is being able to use the distro you want with the software you want. The only difference there should be between distros is the default software it comes with, and the default configuration and ease-of-use of their configuration files, those are really the only two I can think of. Everything else should be completely modular, including the kernel, but for now at the very least just being able to install any software. I want direct access to the software that is provided by third parties without having to worry about compiling or specific package support for the distro and distro version I happen to be running, and so do those third-party vendors. If you want more programs for Linux, and want to share programs with users regardless of their distro flavor, then you want this to be easy to accomplish. The LSB has gone a long way to help ensure software is portable with it's binary compatibility, and with the Berlin Packaging API hopefully it will be just one more small step that will make a huge difference.

I know, wanting there to be programs and games made by vendors for Linux that can be sold in stores and easily downloaded and installed from the net is crazy.

I'm such a loon. </sarcasm>

there is no perfect format not because is not possible, but simply because the devs are not working together like the OP mentioned

That's possible that there could be a combined format that "does it all", but that's a format war and it can easily be avoided. Just like arguing if Blu-Ray or HD-DVD is better, or NFS or SMB, or DivX or Xvid, it may be a fairly lost cause. All that needs to happen is compatibility for all or most all of the existing formats, and a way to add new ones easily. If either RPM or DEB or any of the others do not contain enough information for correct program installation, they should be depreciated and revisions made and/or an entirely new format or container format. I know that they are working on DEB2, and perhaps RPM is working on updating theirs as well, so during these corrections they need to include what is required to make them installable by any package manager.

Again though, this Berlin API could be the best solution, so I'll support whatever solution can actually get done to accomplish this. If Ubuntu refuses to adopt it, I'll use some other distro which allows me to install whatever software I want.

The package installer unification thing has been played around with for years, I am opposed to it...

All problems are solvable. Standardization can be done in such a way that it doesn't take away any freedoms for developers or users, but instead gives them. Standardization can be done in such a way that it is hidden from both developers and users, and gets out of there way. If implemented properly, it can allow extensible freedom into the distant future and adapt and evolve, while still making all software usable without any cost to performance (though certainly programs could be updated to take advantage of new features/libraries or whatnot, but that happens any way). That, right there, would be a great feature. There's no reason for being opposed to a great feature. Are you also opposed to the ODF, HTML, and other standards as well? I'll bet you like the idea of being able to access documents and web pages regardless of what computer you're on, so don't be hatin' on the freedom and benefits that cross-distro package installation would give you. See features for what they are, and if you don't like them then don't use them. Go back to telnet and BBSes for your internet use, and if you want to compile every program before you use it that's fine, and if you only want access to what's in your distro's repositories, again, your choice.

There's a lot of us out here that want more choice and more freedom, and we'll support standards as long as those standards are good.

[p_quarles]

If you want more use cases, I'll give you them, but hopefully you understand now. Regardless of what you believe, users are having big problems. If you want to help, you'll have to acknowledge this fact.

Yes, please give specific examples. I simply can't think of any significant, stable application that isn't packaged in a way that makes it super-easy to install on both rpm- and dpkg-based distributions. In other words, there is already a great deal of centralization in terms of package management, and consolidating it further is not going to help with the relatively small number of fringe applications that don't get packaged in a way that is useful for the average non-geek user.

[madjr]

Yes, please give specific examples. I simply can't think of any significant, stable application that isn't packaged in a way that makes it super-easy to install on both rpm- and dpkg-based distributions. In other words, there is already a great deal of centralization in terms of package management, and consolidating it further is not going to help with the relatively small number of fringe applications that don't get packaged in a way that is useful for the average non-geek user.

if this was totally how it is then eeePC users would not have to dump xandros just to install an app and go back to windows.

binaries are only available to particular distros or distro versions.

it's a big mess.