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Thread: Debian? CLI? What for?

  1. #11
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    Re: Debian? CLI? What for?

    Quote Originally Posted by odiseo77 View Post
    Well, first, I don't see any relation between what I said in my quote above (which you quoted as well, but I felt it was necessary to quote here), and what you said, except, maybe, that you called "little Napoleons" the people I was talking about in this quote; that is, the people who works with computers, specially sysadmins, or the guys who take care about the user's needs (as I understad, if I'm not lost here, or misunderstanding you). I don't see how they're "little Napoleons" or something like that, so *I guess* you're talking about the "elitist gurus who feel they have the only and absolute truth", or something of the sort. *If* this is the case, then I have an idea about this type of people as well, although I don't generally bother to pay too much attention to them.
    I was talking about the developers, the ones designing and coding the software packages the sysadmins use, though obviously there's a lot of crossover between the two in the OSS community. 'Napoleon' is a reference to the ego-driven competition fest in OSS. Ever heard the expression "too many cooks in the kitchen"? What I want is for the dominant distro to step up to the plate and take the reins. No one has worked out how the Bazaar model, while great for finding bugs and security issues, is to be used for design. And, in practice, OSS projects are more like anarchy than the kind of chaos you'd find in a real bazaar. I'm arguing that at the level of the distro, the all-encompassing community, the system is too chaotic and needs to be more anarchic (anarchy, in its many forms, is not chaos).

    Quote Originally Posted by odiseo77 View Post
    That said, I think maybe I should clarify the general idea I was trying to express in my first post (in case it's not clear enough). My main point was related to the interaction between the OS (in this case, Linux, which, according to some myth, or FUD, etc. is supposed to be hard), and the user. I pretty much said that although a general, average user doesn't install and setup an OS (Linux, in this case), once everything is setup and working, any regular user (that is, someone who uses the computer for work, or browsing the net, listening music etc., but is not particularly interested in how the OS works -nor he/she has to), any regular user, I repeat, should, or could, easily work with Linux, with the same ease he/she uses the "supper-ubber easy Windows" (of course, at the beginning this person could feel the need to get used, or accustomed to another OS, but that's another point).
    IMO, Windows is far easier to install and configure. The system can't be customized as much as Ubuntu, which is a good thing, an its base installation is a generation ahead of Ubuntu. The default setup for Ubuntu feels more like working on Windows NT 4.0 back in the late 90s. And once you step beyond that with customization, you're presented with a million competing ways to do the same thing, all of them replete with bugs and hacks, finding and configuring trustworthy repos, editing configuration files at the CLI, and compiling software (dependency Hell). This is not ready for primetime.

  2. #12
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    Re: Debian? CLI? What for?

    I apologize to all who are offended by my opinions. I guess I just want Ubuntu, its controlling body, Canonical, and the OSS community, to be something it's not and never will be. I'm not as in love with chaos as some, I suppose. I want to see the kind of anarchy present in individual OSS projects replicated at the distro level. It seems that will never happen, as just mentioning the idea brings out a wall of opposition. So I'll go crawl back under my rock. P.S. I'm not a kid; I have a BSEE, BSCEN, and MSEE specializing in DSP and Medical Instrumentation.

  3. #13
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    Re: Debian? CLI? What for?

    Quote Originally Posted by eryksun View Post
    Yes you can, and should, if you have dominant market share. Its your responsibility to end users to do everything in your power to provide a coherent OS, and not just some hacked together sampling of countless half-baked tools.
    Echos of Microsoft...

    Sorry, but when it comes to things like this--and government, I'm a firm believer in decentralization. Isn't what you are proposing the very thing Microsoft is hated for? (keeping in mind that, for Microsoft, the "end user" is IT)

    -Jon

  4. #14
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    Re: Debian? CLI? What for?

    Quote Originally Posted by cardinals_fan View Post
    Why do you possibly assume that I (a Linux user) care about rivaling Microsoft? Why should I possibly want to use Ubuntu on my desktop? Why should I want a central vision? Why should I want a "clear alternative to MS Windows" (I think that many already exist)? And, perhaps most importantly, why do you think that you can tell me (a member of the Linux community) what to do?

    Sorry if that offended anyone, but I'm really sick of "Why don't we all make one big distro to take on MS" threads. Back to topic
    +1

    I'm sick of those complaints too. If you hate it, use Windows/Mac (I know I said it already, but it needs to be said again).

    Quote Originally Posted by eryksun View Post
    IMO, Windows is far easier to install and configure. The system can't be customized as much as Ubuntu, which is a good thing, an its base installation is a generation ahead of Ubuntu.
    Yeah, but what if you're like me and don't like the Windows interface at all? What if, again, you're like me and want to be able to customize it? Yes, you can get stuff like Lite Step and BB4Win but it's not the same, and none of them would run on my Vista installation (which I no longer have). It's only a a goog thing that it can't be customized for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by eryksun View Post
    The default setup for Ubuntu feels more like working on Windows NT 4.0 back in the late 90s. And once you step beyond that with customization, you're presented with a million competing ways to do the same thing, all of them replete with bugs and hacks, finding and configuring trustworthy repos, editing configuration files at the CLI, and compiling software (dependency Hell). This is not ready for primetime.
    The complaint that you have to compile all the time is, as far as I'm concerned, a load of crap. I've compiled software about three times, and that was completely by my own choice. I never needed to. Furthermore, if there wasn't "a million ways to do the same thing" as you put it, Linux wouldn't be customizable, now would it?

    I just don't get it. The amount of distros confused me at first, but it never bothered me. I just thought "this is cool; I can find the perfect flavour of Linux for me", and I did some reading.

    Seriously, go back to Windows, or Mac if that's what you were using. You seem to hate what Linux is all about in the first place.
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  5. #15
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    Re: Debian? CLI? What for?

    Quote Originally Posted by joninkrakow View Post
    Echos of Microsoft...

    Sorry, but when it comes to things like this--and government, I'm a firm believer in decentralization. Isn't what you are proposing the very thing Microsoft is hated for? (keeping in mind that, for Microsoft, the "end user" is IT)

    -Jon
    No, I don't think so. Microsoft is a typical corporation (replete with cronies, corruption, monopolization, and state interference) dictating to a community, with a handful of leaders creating the vision and getting rich and powerful beyond belief. I'm talking about self-organization within a community along the lines of libertarian anarchism. Without organization you're left with chaos, which, IMO, is never good.

  6. #16
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    Re: Debian? CLI? What for?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiceMonster View Post
    I just don't get it. The amount of distros confused me at first, but it never bothered me. I just thought "this is cool; I can find the perfect flavour of Linux for me", and I did some reading.

    Seriously, go back to Windows, or Mac if that's what you were using. You seem to hate what Linux is all about in the first place.
    I don't hate Linux at all. I love open source on a project-by-project basis. It's the chaos at the distro level that makes me cringe. I don't think the average person responds to being flooded with choices the way you do. Some people like that; most people would rather choose between a couple of alternatives, both of which are well thought out, easy to use, coherent, and in comparison to each other, based on didactically opposed principles (e.g. Capitalism vs. Communism in the 20th century; you're with us, or against us). People don't want a continuum of choice all along the spectrum, unless it's something superficial like an eye candy theme or the color of their SUV. That's why Windows, and IE/Windows Media Player, are so dominant on the desktop, with Apple taking up a distant, though entrenched, second place.

  7. #17
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    Re: Debian? CLI? What for?

    Quote Originally Posted by eryksun View Post
    I apologize to all who are offended by my opinions.
    Please don't impute offense to disagreement. That's frankly, umm, kind of insulting.

    I guess I just want Ubuntu, its controlling body, Canonical, and the OSS community, to be something it's not and never will be. I'm not as in love with chaos as some, I suppose.

    I want to see the kind of anarchy present in individual OSS projects replicated at the distro level.
    Ubuntu does take responsibility for the entire experience that users have with their product. This is an enormous undertaking, of course, and the results are unlikely to be perfect at this stage, but Ubuntu has really done an amazing job of consolidating many of the resources available to it.

    What it cannot do, and never should do, is attempt to co-opt other people or projects.

    It seems that will never happen, as just mentioning the idea brings out a wall of opposition. So I'll go crawl back under my rock.
    People were pointing out to you that your suggestions are incompatible with the spirit of F/LOSS projects. That's not "opposition" so much as it is explaining to you why your idea is not a realistic proposition.
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  8. #18
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    Re: Debian? CLI? What for?

    Quote Originally Posted by eryksun View Post
    I don't hate Linux at all. I love open source on a project-by-project basis. It's the chaos at the distro level that makes me cringe. I don't think the average person responds to being flooded with choices the way you do. Some people like that; most people would rather choose between a couple of alternatives, both of which are well thought out, easy to use, coherent, and in comparison to each other, based on didactically opposed principles (e.g. Capitalism vs. Communism in the 20th century; you're with us, or against us). People don't want a continuum of choice all along the spectrum, unless it's something superficial like an eye candy theme or the color of their SUV. That's why Windows, and IE/Windows Media Player, are so dominant on the desktop, with Apple taking up a distant, though entrenched, second place.
    Yes, that's why I think that people who are happy with Windows and the software they are using should just stick with it. Linux is not for everyone. Like I said before, I'm not concerned about whether Linux is going to conquer the desktop market or not. If it works for me, and keeps improving, then I'm happy, and if the result of its improvement means more people joining, then that's great, but I don't really care if people use Windows, Linux, or Mac OSX.

    Remember, Linux is not Windows!
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  9. #19
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    Re: Debian? CLI? What for?

    Quote Originally Posted by p_quarles View Post
    Please don't impute offense to disagreement. That's frankly, umm, kind of insulting.
    Sorry but I construed statements such as the following as meaning I offended, to some degree at least:

    • You're just annoyed that you don't know what everything is yet.
    • And, perhaps most importantly, why do you think that you can tell me (a member of the Linux community) what to do?
    • you really have no idea what you are saying, do you? you want canonical to take over control of debian? wtf? go and read about how the system works, kid.

    I'm not annoyed that I don't know everything. I may not like chaos, but I do like learning and am never annoyed by the prospect. Is that person offended? I don't know, but they're certainly condescending to me, and if they're not offended, why be rude? Further, I didn't know that expressing an opinion was telling someone what to do. The tone of the quoted sentence implies I'm dictating as if I have all the answers, and if I came off the way, I can see how that would be offensive, so I apologized. Finally, how is excessive condescension, calling me a kid, and cursing at me somehow not to be seen as taking offense?

  10. #20
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    Re: Debian? CLI? What for?

    Quote Originally Posted by RiceMonster View Post
    Yes, that's why I think that people who are happy with Windows and the software they are using should just stick with it. Linux is not for everyone. Like I said before, I'm not concerned about whether Linux is going to conquer the desktop market or not. If it works for me, and keeps improving, then I'm happy, and if the result of its improvement means more people joining, then that's great, but I don't really care if people use Windows, Linux, or Mac OSX.

    Remember, Linux is not Windows!
    This was the basis for my apology. I want Ubuntu to be something that you, and apparently most users, do not want. I'm hoping to take on the corporate-controlled paradigm with self-organized anarchy, providing a diametrically opposed system (not just in design, but in philosophy) to Microsoft's corporate oligarchy. It's not just a matter of a pragmatic desire for a great OS. I'm an idealist.

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