Programming Language for Kids

[mssever]

I've been asked to teach a 10-year-old kid how to program, so I've been thinking about languages. Usually, I would suggest one of Python, PHP, or Ruby as a good first language, but I'm not so sure for kids.

I've been looking at Squeak, and it looks somewhat promising, especially if you add on the Etoys. I've downloaded Alice, but haven't looked at it yet.

Does anyone have any thoughts about a good first language for kids?

Note: This kid likes math, but since he's in third or fourth grade, his math skills aren't too advanced yet. Also, I'm not sure how interested he is in programming. Even though Python is easy to learn, I'm concerned that he might lose interest before he learned enough Python to be able to do something interesting. After all, programming is only fun if you're ale to do something interesting!

[kool_kat_os]

uhhh....for a 10 year old? Does he or she know alot about computers?

[Wybiral]

I started with BASIC when I was about 11-12 (QBasic to be specific) and I think what made it particularly easy to learn was that it had the graphical plotting functions built in. I'm DEFINITELY not suggesting QBasic (or any dialect of BASIC) just that any language with a simple enough 2d graphical library should make learning fun and rewarding (I don't know many kids that age that don't want to make their own games/graphical demos).

I've played with Alice myself, and IMO it's a bit more advanced (it might be good for a 15-year-old or so, but I can't imagine a younger child understanding too much of it). Basically, any language that's simple enough (my eye would be on Python) that you can find a simple graphical library (for Python, you could hack together a simplified Pygame interface) for them to start with, then slowly introduce them to more of the language. Simple graphics are great because they can see their code being executed and understand what's going on, then they can migrate to text and understand the program flow a bit better. Any dialect of turtle might also be worth looking into (since that's what it's for).

But, it probably depends on the kid... If they really like math, maybe they'll get more of a kick out of playing with numbers than graphics.

[CptPicard]

I would still suggest Python. It's about as simple as it gets and is not a toy language either -- he won't grow out of it and feel a bit betrayed by you teaching a "toy" language that is no good in the long run. Don't underestimate kids' ability to learn.

However, I have personally always toyed with the idea of... what would come of a kid who was taught a functional language as the first thing? He likes math, so the concept of computation as evaluating functions might not be so remote... Scheme makes a nice prefix notation calculator after all, and the syntax is REALLY simple.

(On the other hand, if he doesn't grok Scheme, you'll put him off programming forever...)

[kool_kat_os]

Ya i would do python.....it makes it easier to learn other languages

[pmasiar]

nah. 10 years old wants to program games. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_maker is a windows freeware excellent for writing games with hardly any code. I tried it on myself, and let me tell you it was the most fun I had in programming in years. I tried it on a 10 years old, and we were able to have intelligent discussions about objects, events, timers, object collision, conditional statements and stuff. The whole point is, there is no code to write - program is build from palette of icons with actions, placed to event-slots of objects. Plenty of classic sample games are available to learn from: asteroids, invaders, breakout, platform game, etc. Professor Overmans, the author, teaches game programming course based on that, and I guess many PhD students contributed to that.

When he was able to show off to his friends in elementary school a platform game he wrote, and show them how he really can make changes and it still works, they were impressed.

<promotion type=shameles>In my sig is link to a project remaking this game engine in Python and Pygame. If someone with Python skills is interested, please msg me or join group.</promotion>

[pmasiar]

I would still suggest Python. It's about as simple as it gets and is not a toy language either -- he won't grow out of it and feel a bit betrayed by you teaching a "toy" language that is no good in the long run. Don't underestimate kids' ability to learn.

Yes. Kids will smell early that the language they learn is just a toy language, not the real one, and it might demotivate.

However, I have personally always toyed with the idea of... what would come of a kid who was taught a functional language as the first thing? He likes math, so the concept of computation as evaluating functions might not be so remote... Scheme makes a nice prefix notation calculator after all, and the syntax is REALLY simple.

(On the other hand, if he doesn't grok Scheme, you'll put him off programming forever...)

yup, those kinds of experiments is easy to do on children of other people, but demotivating your own kid for math for sake of experiment is hard to defend - maybe if you have couple dozens of children, you can take the risk, but not otherwise

10 years old is not that good in reading, and writing code is boring and confusing. "Daddy, why computer cannot count closing parens for me? Is it that stupid?"

[Sentientv2]

I had the opportunity to learn Logo when I was in second grade. We had a simple Apple IIe (or maybe earlier) machine that you could type in logo commands and move a turtle or frog or something around on some lily pads (believe it or not I swear it was a turtle).

I was able to do some BASIC at about 10, though I didn't have anyone to teach me what I was doing. My grandfather brought my sister and I a Tandy Color Computer II in a black trashbag, along with some books, so I just started copying code.

Take a look at KTurtle on the Add/Remove Programs. It was a turtle!!

Take care and if you need any other eyes researching on a certain language, please let me know.

[CptPicard]

10 years old is not that good in reading, and writing code is boring and confusing. "Daddy, why computer cannot count closing parens for me? Is it that stupid?"

Bah. I read Dante's Divine Comedy on first grade up to at least through the Hell part, the rest got boring.

"Quit whining son/daughter and grow character, by your age I was already currying my functions..."

Well ok, not really... you're probably right, at 10 I was much more into humanities in general, and barely managed to type BASIC into my Salora Manager...

[thesmartace]

I agree with pmasiar, kids want to make games (I know I did when I started learning to program). Furthermore, kids need to be able to see quick results to what they are making; it's no good to have to write/fix a ton of code before you can even run anything. That's where I think software like Game Maker and any of the Click Team offerings are good. They teach kids the logic and concepts of programming in a fun and simple way.

Once they have mastered the basics, they might be able to move onto a real language like Python but, to begin with, toy languages are good tools for them to learn.