Anatomy of a well-intentioned Linux Troll

[benplaut]

that was a GREAT read...

no words will be saved by a troll not posting because of this, but the words have been put to good use here

somebody sticky this?

[autocrosser]

The BEST treatment of the topic I've read in a long while---Two thumbs up & THIS should be a Sticky in a Very visible place!!!!!!!!

[Kerberos]

I'm assuming your talking about me. You do realise 'troll' is a pejorative making this thread a vaguely disguised insult (I'm not a forum newbie, surprise, surprise).

The term 'trolling' is based on the dictionary definition 'To fish for by trailing a baited line from behind a slowly moving boat', yet I am willing to stand by and justify with personal experiance my reasoning for my comments. It seems anyone who a: Doesn't agree with you and b: Isn't willing to be swayed by the 'your wrong, deal with it' argument is a troll.

But at the end of the day I am still going to keep promoting Microsoft software over Linux to my clients as quite simply Windows gives me much less hassle in terms of maintainance and technical support. Coupled with the fact there is a moratorium on discussing improvements in Linux here ('Fix it yourself', 'report it on bugzilla') and Microsoft actually stand by their product ('If you dont like it fk off its free' simply does not cut it).

I have (as you have stated) an extensive IT background and I am not willing to use Linux in anything but a server (195 days uptime for the firewall/dhcp box here). Maybe there is an actual reason for it greater than 'Bill Gates is paying me' or 'I am a troll'.

And Linux's single digit market share tells you its not just me that thinks this way.

[sapo]

At least an open-minded still exists in this world.. now i m sure

[Knome_fan]

It seems anyone who a: Doesn't agree with you and b: Isn't willing to be swayed by the 'your wrong, deal with it' argument is a troll.

Does it really seem that way? Actually, I think the OP gave a pretty good overview about what he think is trolling, simply disagreeing with him wasn't one of the reasons.

But at the end of the day I am still going to keep promoting Microsoft software over Linux to my clients as quite simply Windows gives me much less hassle in terms of maintainance and technical support.

Fine.
I think everyone would agree that you should recomend the solution to your clients that you think is the best solution and that you are able to actually administer. After all, I suppose that's what they are paying for, isn't it?

Coupled with the fact there is a moratorium on discussing improvements in Linux here ('Fix it yourself', 'report it on bugzilla') and Microsoft actually stand by their product ('If you dont like it fk off its free' simply does not cut it).

Oh please, this is a freaking community forum. People's attitudes here neither reflect Linux as a whole, nor do they reflect how companies like canonical, redhat, novell, etc. treat improvements.
Seriously, how do you think people would and should react if I for example joined some windows support forum only to tell everyone around where windows is lacking, to put it mildly and then finally to complain that nothing is being done about it? Would be rather silly, wouldn't it?
Btw., reporting bugs is the best way to communicate with developers, so I don't really understand why you think people pointing this out to you is a problem.

I have (as you have stated) an extensive IT background and I am not willing to use Linux in anything but a server (195 days uptime for the firewall/dhcp box here).

Again, fine. What exactly is the problem here?

Maybe there is an actual reason for it greater than 'Bill Gates is paying me' or 'I am a troll'.

First off, I'm sure there are a host of reasons but you being a troll certainly isn't one of them.
However, I think we'd have a hard time agreeing on what these reasons are.

And Linux's single digit market share tells you its not just me that thinks this way.

Does it?
Couldn't MS having a monopoly have something to do with it also?
And you should define what market you are talking about. There are markets where Linux has a pretty significant market share and is the fastest growing OS out there.

Finally, I hope it is fine with you if I ask you some questions.
What exactly are you trying to achieve here?
From what I read you neither use Ubuntu, nor do you plan to use it.
While this in itself wouldn't necessarily be a reason not to hang around here, all I have seen from you (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is you engaging in Windows vs. Linux flamewars, stating how Linux sucks and how Windows doesn't have any flaws.
So again, what is the purpose of this kind of behaviour?

[Kerberos]

Finally, I hope it is fine with you if I ask you some questions.
What exactly are you trying to achieve here?
From what I read you neither use Ubuntu, nor do you plan to use it.
While this in itself wouldn't necessarily be a reason not to hang around here, all I have seen from you (and please correct me if I'm wrong) is you engaging in Windows vs. Linux flamewars, stating how Linux sucks and how Windows doesn't have any flaws.
So again, what is the purpose of this kind of behaviour?

I've not said anywhere Windows doesn't have flaws, in fact I list them on a regular basis.

I pointed out that the network control tool doesn't tell you your DHCP allocated IP address. I was told that 'This isn't the Linux way' despite there being an empty box that say 'IP Address' right there. I even provided a screenshot. On commenting that a boot screen might be a good idea also (and I even posted that comment as an example to the sort of bad replys I get to suggestions) and was told to 'try another distro' and 'Stop trying to make Linux Windows'.

I appreciate that discussing problems does not fix them, but a discussion does air the problem, and generally gives rise to an interesting enough thread. If I say I feel something is a problem and then get told 'Try another distro', 'Its not Windows' or 'There is a learning curve' as a response then I read that as 'This problem isn't going away'. I dont consider it acceptable that the easiest way to view my IP address is with bash and by refusing to accept that Its a problem is equivelant to a refusal to address it, but by refusing to even concede on (what to me) is obvious room for improvement it removes my faith in Ubuntus ability to actually progress.

[Knome_fan]

I've not said anywhere Windows doesn't have flaws, in fact I list them on a regular basis.

You did?
Could you please point me to where you did that?
Now I'm not following what you write here religiously, but from what I have seen you didn't react very friendly if people dared to point out flaws in windows. Now don't get me wrong, you are of course free to disagree with people's assessments of flaws, but honestly, I can't remember one instance where you agreed that something was indeed a windows problem.

I pointed out that the network control tool doesn't tell you your DHCP allocated IP address. I was told that 'This isn't the Linux way' despite there being an empty box that say 'IP Address' right there. I even provided a screenshot.

Well, I'm not really sure if the network control tool is the right place to give you this information. After all it serves as a tool to configure your connection, not to give you information about your connection. Probably the network panel applet would be a much better and easier to use place. Did you take a look if it works there?

The answer you cite here sure is stupid, but from what I remember of this discussion you used this "problem" to point out that linux isn't ready for the desktop and repeated this very point for several pages again and again. I think it's fair to assume that not you simply pointing out a missing feature caused the reactions you complain about, but your line of reasoning and repeating this point over and over again.

Btw., this would be a great thing to file a but report about.

On commenting that a boot screen might be a good idea also (and I even posted that comment as an example to the sort of bad replys I get to suggestions) and was told to 'try another distro' and 'Stop trying to make Linux Windows'.

Ah, I remember at least part of this discussion. You didn't simply state that a boot screen would be a good idea (which it would be as I and many others have also stated and which afaik is coming with breezy), but you used the lack of a boot screen in ubuntu in a totally unrelated discussion to again point out how linux isn't ready for the desktop. And while we are it, what's bad about people pointing out that almost every other distro out there has a bootscreen?

I appreciate that discussing problems does not fix them, but a discussion does air the problem, and generally gives rise to an interesting enough thread. If I say I feel something is a problem and then get told 'Try another distro', 'Its not Windows' or 'There is a learning curve' as a response then I read that as 'This problem isn't going away'.

Again, I doubt that simply stating what iyho could be improved in ubuntu accurately describes what you are doing.

I dont consider it acceptable that the easiest way to view my IP address is with bash and by refusing to accept that Its a problem is equivelant to a refusal to address it, but by refusing to even concede on (what to me) is obvious room for improvement it removes my faith in Ubuntus ability to actually progress.

First, see above.
Second, again, this is a community forum and you post in a section called community chat. How people react here is totally irrelevant to the progress of Ubuntu. As I already asked, how do you think people would react if I did the same thing you do here in a windows support forum?

[Kvark]

I appreciate that discussing problems does not fix them, but a discussion does air the problem, and generally gives rise to an interesting enough thread. If I say I feel something is a problem and then get told 'Try another distro', 'Its not Windows' or 'There is a learning curve' as a response then I read that as 'This problem isn't going away'. I dont consider it acceptable that the easiest way to view my IP address is with bash and by refusing to accept that Its a problem is equivelant to a refusal to address it, but by refusing to even concede on (what to me) is obvious room for improvement it removes my faith in Ubuntus ability to actually progress.

Easiest way to view your IP address in Windows:
-> Type "ipconfig" in a command window.

Easiest way to view your IP address in Ubuntu:
-> Type "ip address" in a command window.

Pretty similar, only difference is that the linux command is more logical and easier to guess. Maybe the command line just happens to be a quick way to query for this kind of info.

OK, some hate the command line even when it is the fastest way... I'm sure you are aware of the GUI ways to find out your IP in Windows. In Ubuntu, one GUI way is to open the menu -> system tools -> network tools. Then select the interface you want to view the IP of from the drop down list there, even that is not hard at all.



BTW. You find that the way Ubuntu does things does not suit you at all. You would never use it or reccomend it to anyone. You think Ubuntu is inferior. And you don't have any faith in it's ability to progress. I really think you should go somewhere else and use another OS because Ubuntu clearly isn't for you and you are only wasting your time hanging out at an Ubuntu related forum.

[Kerberos]

Easiest way to view your IP address in Windows:
-> Type "ipconfig" in a command window.

Easiest way to view your IP address in Ubuntu:
-> Type "ip address" in a command window.

Pretty similar, only difference is that the linux command is more logical and easier to guess. Maybe the command line just happens to be a quick way to query for this kind of info.

Neither of those options are guessable. They all require prerequisite knowlege - which is largely the 'point' of a GUI, to remove that requirement by providing people with choices as opposed to a flashing cursor. It presents the choices, you choose, rather than expecting the user to already know how.

OK, some hate the command line even when it is the fastest way... I'm sure you are aware of the GUI ways to find out your IP in Windows. In Ubuntu, one GUI way is to open the menu -> system tools -> network tools.

You mean this option? Tell me why it cant just display the DHCP assigned IP in the boxes provided (greyed out at least), and why its of possible benifit to _anyone_ to not have that information there?

BTW. You find that the way Ubuntu does things does not suit you at all. You would never use it or reccomend it to anyone. You think Ubuntu is inferior. And you don't have any faith in it's ability to progress. I really think you should go somewhere else and use another OS because Ubuntu clearly isn't for you and you are only wasting your time hanging out at an Ubuntu related forum.

I think you might be right. If an operating system doesn't provide obviously useful functionality and refuses to acknowlege that this is an issue then I dont want to use it.

[xmastree]

Can I just add my 2c worth?

First, I think Aysiu's post was great, However, well-intentioned may not be the right word. I think it ought to be an accidental Linux troll.
The act of trolling is usually deliberate by its nature, and designed to incite arguments.
The accidental troll on the other hand, comes here, full of windows experience, to seek advice and finds it difficult to have an open enough mind to see that things here are different. Very different. They've been using Windows so long that to them it seems like it's the only way.

It ends up as an argument, but that was never the intention of the accidental troll. They just have the wrong attitude, and since they've been doing things a certain way, and very successfully, for years it's difficult to throw all that knowledge out and start again.

A bit like an English speaker abroad expecting everyone to speak English. It's difficult to forget what you know and start over.