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Thread: Why I love/hate Perl

  1. #21
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    Re: Why I love/hate Perl

    I loved Perl in 2001. It was my first dynamically typed language.

    Then I used in real-life big project, and it went down in flames. Standard worst-case scenario: mixed bunch of people (biologists+programmers), no strong coding standards, everybody is learning on-the-fly. Code is huge mess. We will never do any other project in Perl: even Java (crap it is) would be better then that. For throw-away script under 100 lines, maybe. But now, I use Python ever for that.

    For me, Perl is write-only language. I don't want to read code I wrote myself.

    mjwood0, KCPokes:

    You claim that Python is not available by default on SunOS and AIX, which are proprietary Unixes. I don't have stats, but my guess will be that those boxes have 10% or or less of total Linux server market, and Python might be missing on some of them (but not all). And I never head of PC-based Linux server without Python. Did you?

    So my calculations are, Python is still available on 90% of the Linux/Unix servers. I understand that some companies prefer to pay for expensive boxes, but majority does not.
    Last edited by pmasiar; October 18th, 2007 at 01:25 PM.

  2. #22
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    Re: Why I love/hate Perl

    No coding standards? That's your problem right there.

    Using another language does not suddenly organise your code magically.
    I am infallible, you should know that by now.
    "My favorite language is call STAR. It's extremely concise. It has exactly one verb '*', which does exactly what I want at the moment." --Larry Wall
    (02:15:31 PM) ***TimToady and snake oil go way back...
    42 lines of Perl - SHI - Home Site

  3. #23
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    Re: Why I love/hate Perl

    I know but in Perl it just blows your project to pieces, more so that other languages.

  4. #24
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    Re: Why I love/hate Perl

    Quote Originally Posted by pmasiar View Post
    I don't have stats, but my guess will be that those boxes have 10% or or less of total Linux server market, and Python might be missing on some of them (but not all). And I never head of PC-based Linux server without Python. Did you?
    I don't want to get into the "this is better then that" debate, but seriously 10%? It wouldn't be the total linux market, it would be the total *Nix server market. It is just recently that major corporations (past 5 years) have started to embrace Linux as a viable alternative. I'm speaking for a corporate standpoint and not a hosting business or personal use standpoint. When it comes down to it, does it matter? Unless someone can produce some sound numbers, which I haven't found much, its all speculation. My standpoint is purely from what I work with everyday, as well as aquaintances that work in other corporations. I don't prefer Solaris, it is just what is entrenched already. We've attempted to move from applications from Unix to Linux and it is not a trivial task; sometimes you are successful, sometimes you arent. I do beleive if you start out with the intention of it being Linux, depending on application architecture, you can make it work. Some of the vendors, though, are a bit slow in getting stable Linux replacements out there.

    That said, I will agree with you on the Linux point; if the server is linux, there is a 99.9% chance that it will have both Perl and Python. I say go with whatever you are comfortable with. Quick and dirty with perl is easy and you can typically be sure that it is going to run, regardless of the OS. I'm sure the same could be said for Python, long as its there.

  5. #25
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    Re: Why I love/hate Perl

    I have no numbers of course, google "unix server market share" suggested State of the server market. Linux grows faster that Unix, of course this is misleading because in price, PC-based server is much cheaper that high-end Unix server. And many people do what we do in our department: many PC-servers are bought from Dell with Windows and reformatted right away or year-two later.

    Yes I know there are couple old Solaris boxes around (heck, we still run VAX somewhere down in the basement), but cheap PC-based Linux boxes is the hot growth area (and cheap PC-based Windows servers). According to article, Linux doubles every 2 years, Unix (at that speed) in about 20 years.

    Of course article talks in terms of sales amount, not units sold, and mixes PC-based and Linux boxes with traditional Unix from same manufacturer, but the trend is unmistakable even beyond all the confusion.

  6. #26
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    Re: Why I love/hate Perl

    Quote Originally Posted by pmasiar View Post
    And many people do what we do in our department: many PC-servers are bought from Dell with Windows and reformatted right away or year-two later.
    I feel that we've taken this thread WAY off topic, but I do enjoy a good in-depth conversation.

    Anyway, to your point, this is, in my world, not what we'd consider a Linux server. This is still purely a desktop running Linux. Even if you were to install the server version, run an application on it, it does not contain the redundancy that would meet the classification of a server. We've been doing it for years with workstations around here. In fact we have some very visible internal applications that they are unaware of the fact that they sit in a room, on a workstation, and not a data center on a redundant server. The system administrators want no part of it due to the fact that there is no nightly backups, no redundant hardware, and its running our install of the OS and not their standard install.

    Linux is growing in leaps and bounds, no doubt, mainly due to its ease of availability and relative ease to quickly set up on existing hardware. It'll continue to grow. But regardless of where it goes, the companies like Sun and IBM will continue to exist and do well solely for the fact that someone has to produce the hardware to run these enterprise applications. As fun as a cluster of small servers sounds, its hard enough to maintain the number of large servers required to meet the traffic demands.

    But if it makes you feel any better, I am looking to replace my dual processor Sun server, at home, with a more modern machine, running Linux! Is it Solaris that is slow or the fact that the machine is ancient (2X300Mhz), but at this point I need more speed and my other linux servers haven't failed me yet!

  7. #27
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    Re: Why I love/hate Perl

    speak of the devil, here's another reason to love perl.

    http://kovaya.com/miscellany/2007/10/insert-coin.html

  8. #28
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    Re: Why I love/hate Perl

    Quote Originally Posted by KCPokes View Post
    The system administrators want no part of it due to the fact that there is no nightly backups, no redundant hardware,
    our Dell servers have no redundant hardware beyond RAID disks, but they are backed up nightly.

    > companies like Sun and IBM will continue to exist and do well solely for the fact that someone has to produce the hardware to run these enterprise applications. As fun as a cluster of small servers sounds, its hard enough to maintain the number of large servers required to meet the traffic demands.

    Obviously. They will be around for a long time - IBM mainframes are still around.

    Your point was, that Perl is more often available on those high-end servers, which I do not dispute. My point is, that those high-end servers with Perl and no Python are rare now, and will become even rarer in the future, as plain PC-based servers (what you call "workstations") will became even more widespread.

    Edit: proper word for these non-high-end servers is "commodity hardware servers".

    BTW are you aware that Google search servers are plain PC-based, except of one single app, ERP accounting or something, which runs on some Sun or something? It is cheaper to admit that hardware can fail, and handle it, that to pay for nearly fault-tolerant hardware. It is harder to program that way tho
    Last edited by pmasiar; October 19th, 2007 at 04:06 PM.

  9. #29
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    Re: Why I love/hate Perl

    I just started looking into Perl again (it is two in the morning) for no particular reason. I never really "got" Perl, and couldn't use it.

    Maybe it is the Mountain Dew, or the late hour, but Perl is suddenly attractive to me.

    Hopefully I will retain what I learn.

  10. #30
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    Re: Why I love/hate Perl

    I find that sometimes I need a second pass at something to "get it" (mathematical induction is one example).
    I am infallible, you should know that by now.
    "My favorite language is call STAR. It's extremely concise. It has exactly one verb '*', which does exactly what I want at the moment." --Larry Wall
    (02:15:31 PM) ***TimToady and snake oil go way back...
    42 lines of Perl - SHI - Home Site

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