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Thread: Computers and Hardware: Do you find quality to have gone to the gutter?

  1. #31
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    Re: Computers and Hardware: Do you find quality to have gone to the gutter?

    They don't last as long because they don't have to. The box store I went to aerlier hasd new Acers for less than $350 out the door, mother boards cost that much a few years ago. Most computers will be replaced in less than 3 years, 5 years for sure. And if you think buying a 'name brand' mobo is any better you're probaby mistaken. Only Apple seems to still build a quality product they want to last and build there reputation.
    In my experience, PII-233 through about 2ghz machines are built the best. I have 10 year old hard drives that still teast 100% despite years of usage. The great thing about Linux is it'll run 100% on these old machines, I was playing with a PII-233 MMX machine earlier today using Debian Etch, iceWM, and swiftfox with good results. I ran DSL on another nearly identical machine - except only 32mb - and it was actually fairly fast. These were business castaways and can oftentimes be had for free or even paid to haul them off, along with their matching CRTs!
    My old Pentium, upgraded from a 75mhz to 90 mhz, still works fine with Win95 but it'll get DSL and more RAM next time I play with it.

    CD
    Administrator of various cast-off debris, most of it running either Ubuntu or Debian

  2. #32
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    Re: Computers and Hardware: Do you find quality to have gone to the gutter?

    Quote Originally Posted by CREEPING DEATH View Post
    These were business castaways and can oftentimes be had for free or even paid to haul them off, along with their matching CRTs!CD
    absolutely and not always that old, either ... couple of months back I picked of 4 that way just for hauling them off:
    1- dual PIII 866's / ATI 9250 128Mb agp card / 60Gb hdd / 256Mb RDRAM pc800
    replaced the hd w/2 @ 250 Gb each added some ram, now it is my new home server
    2- dual PIII 733's / TNT Riva 64Mb card / 40Gb hdd / 256Mb RDRAM pc800
    added the 60Gb hdd from #1 and some ram, installed feisty and gave it to a friend with little money and a much newer machine whose power supply went south and trashed the mobo, as well.
    3- PIII 933 / 60Gb hdd / 60Gb hdd / 256Mb RDRAM pc800
    adder another 256Mb RDRAM pc800 from #1, installed feisty = kids new toy
    4- PIII 500 / 12Gb hdd / 512Mb pc100 ram
    added 2nd hdd, installed feisty then gave to a friend who wanted to try linux (new convert now)

    each came complete with 17" CRT + k/b and optical mouse.
    'Those who are willing to sacrifice essential liberties for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security.' - Benjamin Franklin

    Registered Linux User#407002 / Registered Ubuntu User#1806

  3. #33
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    Arrow Re: Computers and Hardware: Do you find quality to have gone to the gutter?

    Quality has degraded that's for sure, but we also pay a lot less for our hardware these days. Back in the day when computers were solid iron and lifetime expectancy for a PC was the same as for a new house you would pay well over a $1000 for a mid-price PC and that's not including the monitor and printer.

    The other thing is as you mention; the manufacturers don't build these things to last anymore. Why? Because they don't need to. In three years you'd have to get a new system anyway. In case nobody's noticed they are still putting out video cards with these pathetic small fans that WILL fail in a year or two. Few of the new keyboards can handle multiple keypresses at the same time. Most of the exterior parts in computer-cases are now feeble plastic.

    Would you buy a monitor with better picture quality and durability or one that was bigger? I find most people want big. Would you buy a computer with high-end specs but crap build quality or a computer with more modest specs and superb build quality? Somehow people tend to go with crap more. You get what you pay for. All the good stuff is branded elite or hardcore nowadays.

    *sigh* I miss my 386.
    Eternally confused.

  4. #34
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    Re: Computers and Hardware: Do you find quality to have gone to the gutter?

    I wish IBM were still in the desktop business. They used to make the most solid and reliable workhorse machines you could get. My second PC is another business cast-off - an IBM PC 300PL desktop which I picked up for a song. It only came with a 300MHz CPU and 128MB PC100 RAM, and no hard drive or optical drive. I'd just built a new main rig so I had some hand-me-down parts to put in this old thing - a CD-RW drive, an 80GB HDD on a ATA-133 PCI controller card, a 4-port PCI USB 2.0 card, and a 300W PSU (which necessitated taking a hacksaw to the chassis due to the different form factor).

    Then I hit ebay and picked up the fastest CPU the mobo would support (550MHz, fanless), 2 extra 128MB sticks of PC100 (max 384MB), a fanless 32MB RIVA TNT2 AGP video card, a dirt cheap Ensoniq AudioPCI sound card, and an even dirtier cheap 3Com ISA network card (the machine already had an onboard 10/100 LAN, but I wanted to use that for the internal interface).

    A custom install of Ubuntu using the Minimal CD and running the Openbox window manager was what this machine was screaming out for. And it runs beautifully. I even have it plugged into the VGA port on my 20" widescreen LCD, at 1680x1050 resolution (towards the outer limits of the TNT2 video card). I'm finding that I use it almost as much as my main rig, and it consumes about one-third the power! No DVDs, digital TV, or recent games, of course, but that's what the main rig is for (although an mpeg decoder card would make DVD/DTV a possibility, if I had a spare PCI slot). Everything else runs just as well.

    Of course, this is most definitely a false economy. For not much more than I spent in total on this old IBM, I could have bought say, a 4-year old P4 with a much faster CPU. But where's the fun in that? There's just something cool about plugging my cable modem into an ISA ethernet card, and playing Quake 3 on a TNT2 AGP 2x (which still looks good at non-native 1024x768 ) . I guess it's just the kind of guy I am.

    I'll be in the market for another laptop soon. Who knows, I may just opt for a Thinkpad of a similar vintage to this desktop. Stripped-down, Openbox Ubuntu has got me hooked!
    AMD Athlon64 X2 5600 on Abit KN9 Ultra nForce 570
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  5. #35
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    Re: Computers and Hardware: Do you find quality to have gone to the gutter?

    Quote Originally Posted by starcraft.man View Post
    Sad but true. Prime example is my mother's fridge lasted for 30 years, then when it broke (for the first time) she decided to get a new one. The new one has since being bought, broken 3 times and needed two separate replacement parts. Both were Maytags I believe, even companies that used to make good now make bad.
    same, we had a hotpoint(i think) washing machine for ~20years. gone through at least 3 in 5years since replacing the old one

    on computers, i haven't really had any hardware woes. just a hdd dying (maxtor) and 2 failing onboard audio chipsets. parent's computer (Tiny) is 5years old and nothing, minus the PSU, has died at all on it. Saying that it has had its fair share of viurs/spyware on it.

    i think in some cases people just treat stuff with less care then they should do
    Last edited by regomodo; June 30th, 2007 at 04:11 PM.
    Is this for enhancing your E-peen?

  6. #36
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    Re: Computers and Hardware: Do you find quality to have gone to the gutter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluecircle View Post
    This is why you build computers from scratch. If you built it yourself and threw an Asus motherboard in there, you wouldn't have this problem.

    Oh, Asus isn't free of any of this... i have a few Asus horror stories for you...
    Not only with the hardware, but with the customer service after the hardware failures too.

  7. #37
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    Re: Computers and Hardware: Do you find quality to have gone to the gutter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenryr View Post
    Yeah, and that's exactly why you're up to your *** in GARBAGE and choking on industrial wastes...The guy who sold your GRANDMOTHER a refrigerator that lasted 30 years or more made a lot less money than the guy who sells YOU a new one every TWO years...It's called 'planned obsolescence'...No one wants to sell you inexpensive but well made PARTS for your computer or your car when they can make a LOT more money selling you an entire NEW one when the current one breaks down....
    You're giving mass manufacturers far too much credit. Typically, they have poor quality control, so they crank out a lot of defectives, and even the ones that aren't defective are pretty lame.

    In the 1950's, folks like Deming and Juran were helping American corporations use basic statistics to control quality. After World War 2, folks like them went to Japan to help them rebuild their nation, and Japan, embracing statistical quality control, became a power-house manufacturer, producing products at lower cost and higher quality. In America (through 70's-now) we slipped from using statistical analysis to keep quality in check to "fluffy" MBA stuff like, cost-cutting by using inferior supplies (lowest-bidder syndrome), feel-good slogans, etc. The MBA teachings of the 80's were basically, show up to a company, do all kinds of cost-cutting to make it look like you just turned everything around and are saving the company millions, then get the hell out after 6 months before someone realizes that all the stuff you cost-cut is actually going to cost the company more money in the long run (dealing with unhappy customers, dealing with dept's that don't have the quality tools or supplies to stop making defects, dealing with depts that were down-sized when they actually needed more staffing or better training, etc).

    Sadly, Japan is taking on America's influence again...looking more at profits and less at quality. Even German Mercedes screwed up by joining Chrysler. They started mixing in poor-quality Chrysler parts to their cars, and now there's a lot of unhappy Mercedes owners.

    You could call if "forced obsolescence" (the engineer's flaw, as some engineers call it...they want you coming back otherwise they're out of business), but, like I said, I think you give them more credit then they deserve. It's mostly shoddy parts and sloppy build processes that create the "forced obsolescence" rather than any kind of purposeful planning.

  8. #38
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    Re: Computers and Hardware: Do you find quality to have gone to the gutter?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tundro Walker View Post
    You're giving mass manufacturers far too much credit. Typically, they have poor quality control, so they crank out a lot of defectives, and even the ones that aren't defective are pretty lame.

    In the 1950's, folks like Deming and Juran were helping American corporations use basic statistics to control quality. After World War 2, folks like them went to Japan to help them rebuild their nation, and Japan, embracing statistical quality control, became a power-house manufacturer, producing products at lower cost and higher quality. In America (through 70's-now) we slipped from using statistical analysis to keep quality in check to "fluffy" MBA stuff like, cost-cutting by using inferior supplies (lowest-bidder syndrome), feel-good slogans, etc. The MBA teachings of the 80's were basically, show up to a company, do all kinds of cost-cutting to make it look like you just turned everything around and are saving the company millions, then get the hell out after 6 months before someone realizes that all the stuff you cost-cut is actually going to cost the company more money in the long run (dealing with unhappy customers, dealing with dept's that don't have the quality tools or supplies to stop making defects, dealing with depts that were down-sized when they actually needed more staffing or better training, etc).

    Sadly, Japan is taking on America's influence again...looking more at profits and less at quality. Even German Mercedes screwed up by joining Chrysler. They started mixing in poor-quality Chrysler parts to their cars, and now there's a lot of unhappy Mercedes owners.

    You could call if "forced obsolescence" (the engineer's flaw, as some engineers call it...they want you coming back otherwise they're out of business), but, like I said, I think you give them more credit then they deserve. It's mostly shoddy parts and sloppy build processes that create the "forced obsolescence" rather than any kind of purposeful planning.
    I agree with this. The trouble is, though, what incentive is there to change when more and more people keep buying more and more stuff, complaints notwithstanding?
    AMD Athlon64 X2 5600 on Abit KN9 Ultra nForce 570
    2GB Corsair TwinX DDR2-800
    Gigabyte ATI HD4850 1GB on ASUS PW201 20" WS LCD
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