Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

[bfledderjohn]

Today I read a post under the Application for Approval thread and being the Team Contact, it really made me think.

After some serious reflection, I felt that this needed to be addressed not only for this situation, but for the future as well. I will also give it even more thought and blog about this, and while this instance is significant in the US specifically, this has international implications with other political, theological, and even historical issues.

First let me give the background here. Lyz has expressed her misgivings about our LoCo participating with events with the Boy and Girl Scouts of America (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PennsylvaniaTeam/ApprovalApplication.com). Specifically the Boy Scouts since they exclude homosexuals and atheists from their organization.

Here's the sticky wicket. As a LoCo we do not support any social or political organzation. Our sole purpose is to increase the penetration of Ubuntu and free (as in freedom) software and open source generally. We are not political, and we are not an instrument of social change. If we can do good by giving machines running Ubuntu to underprivileged families, schools, daycares, and nonprofits then we are achieving our goals and helping the world be a better place. BUT, we are not here to make judgments of the organizations that we may work with.

Do I agree with the policies fo the Boy Scouts who do not allow membership to atheists or homosexuals? No. But since they are a private organization, that is their right. Does that mean that we are supporting them by offering Ubuntu training to their scouts? In my mind, no. We are spreading Ubuntu to young minds who need to know there are options beyond Microsoft. And by giving them an option, perhaps we are opening their minds a bit to the fact that there are always differences in the world and that is what makes the world an exciting and wonderful place.

Now, as far as participation, I do not feel that any person should have to feel like they are being compelled to participate with activities that are counter to their believes or to their standards.

Lyz has absolutely NO obligation to attend or work to coordinate a Boy Scouts event. NOT EVER. No one in my organization will be ostracized for not participating in something that is against their beliefs or offensive to them. Once again, NOT EVER.

On the other side of this, just because Lyz feels this organization is not right in it's beliefs and policies, does not make it mandatory that we do not work with them.

Ubuntu is a non-denominational, non-political, non-activist organization. The ONLY social change that Ubuntu represents is increasing the use of Open Source Software and the spread of the Ubuntu brand of Linux. That is 100% everything that we do. And that is why we have been as successful as we have been.

I do not care if you are atheist, anarchist, catholic, republican, communist, or muslim. We are in this organization because we believe in Ubuntu and Open Source. That is what brings us together. We can not get wrapped up in political or religious debate. Otherwise we are going to have the argument about the justice/injustice of the United States, religious debate, and other things that really have no place in this space, our "Society of Ubuntu." There can not be arguments about who we do or don't work with. The people who support projects with certain groups will do their events, the people who do not agree or support that initiative do not. There will be no bias against either side.

Lyz while you may feel righteous indignation against the Boy Scouts and want nothing to do with them, the person who posted that goal (who was not me), is perfectly within the boundaries to do that. No one will fault you for your feelings on this. But please do not fault others who do want to work with the Boy Scouts in this forum or we run the risk of tearing ourselves apart.

As an example, I don't think that Alex's distribution point at the Wooden Shoe is the best place for Ubuntu to be distributed. Why? Well, by branding Ubuntu as a non-mainstream, anti-establishment, anarchist dream, are we sending the best image of our community to the non-Ubunteros out there? I am not an anarchist. I am not an extremist. And I don't advocate the destruction of the United States. In many ways that book store scares me. But do you know what? I am going to encourage Alex to do what he feels is right. If he feels that this is a good place to spread Ubuntu and the proper way to spread Ubuntu, I will not only allow it, I will strongly encourage him to do what he feels is right.

In other words be true to your heart and your believes, but do not impose them on others who may believe differently. As the moderator I will stop flame wars where I see them erupting, while trying to maintain everyone's freedom of speech. If anyone blasts Lyz for her post, I will remove their negative messages forthwith, and warn them of our policy. If it continues, I will ban them.

I open the door to discussion here, because I don't want people to feel that they have to hide how they feel. And I want to know if anyone supports what I am saying. If I am the sole voice out there then, perhaps I am not the right person to lead this group. But if I am not, please reply. We need to be a team and work together as brothers and sisters. While families and communities do not always see eye to eye, I'd like to think that as a group we can overcome external social/religious/political issues and be the group that I have come to respect and cherish, the Pennsylvania Ubuntu Local Community Team.

Why does this have international implications? Think about this; there are many countries, cultures, and religions out there who have severely different perspectives of the world. Currently there are Ubuntu LoCos in all corners of the world. So, as an example, let's say there is an Iraqi LoCo Team. Well, if there is an event planned for a Sunni school, should the Shiites dictate that there can be no event? No. And visa versa is true. Now, should a Shiite have to participate in the Sunni event? No. Absolutely, positively no. Should the group work together without religion entering into the equation? Yes. Unequivocally.

So the big question is, where does the Pennsylvania LoCo stand? Do we limit who we work with, or do we ignore race, religion, politics, and other dividing issues, to make sure that we spread Ubuntu without forcing anyone to do anything against their own beliefs?

Please do not downplay this. It is important not just here in the PA LoCo, but in all LoCos around the world.

As a side note, I am completely exhausted as I write this, so if it goes in circles or I repeat myself, I am sorry. I just didn't want this to go on without being talked about.

[balou59]

Hi bfledderjohn!

First I should say that I'm not a member of your team but of the SwissTeam and therefore you can happily ignore my writing, but your post made me think and even worried me a little:
You write:

Do I agree with the policies fo the Boy Scouts who do not allow membership to atheists or homosexuals? No. But since they are a private organization, that is their right. Does that mean that we are supporting them by offering Ubuntu training to their scouts? In my mind, no. We are spreading Ubuntu to young minds who need to know there are options beyond Microsoft. And by giving them an option, perhaps we are opening their minds a bit to the fact that there are always differences in the world and that is what makes the world an exciting and wonderful place.

Well I personnaly would react the same way as Lyz did, but maybe with other reasons: I personnaly strongly object to work with an organisation that, even being private, restricts its membership to some particular groups based on religeous belief. It is in my understanding therefore a racist organisation that does not consider every human being as equal. So why collaborating with them would be wrong? Because they do not believe in the essence what makes Ubuntu so great: the community of human beings, regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation or religion. As they do not accept membership from people with a different religious background than them, it would look to the outside as if Ubuntu were supporting them, therefore it could taint Ubuntu to be as restrictive as they are. I do not object if you give them CDs to spread amongst their members, but they would not allow ALL members of your LoCo Team to collaborate with them because of their sexual orientation or religious belief? Come on, why not also collaborate with the Clan or any other racist group? Would you consider collaboration with the Church of Scientology or a Nazi organisation? Your argument fits in either of these options and I sincerely doubt that it would be good to Ubuntu. Collaboration with the Boy Scouts would only be in the Ubuntu spirit if they let in everybody, regardless of religion, gender, sexual orientation or race.

Greetings from Switzerland!

Myriam aka balou59

[lamalex]

Would you consider collaboration with the Church of Scientology or a Nazi organisation?

.. brilliant.

I wish I had thought my roadmap posting over more before I posted it. I had honestly forgotten how exclusive the boyscouts were. I was an atheist, anarchist boyscout with many openly gay friends. I got in fights at camp with evangelical christians, homophobes, and right-wingers including some staff of the camp yet I was never removed or ostracized, my troop accepted my beliefs (for the most part) and accepted me. I never felt ostracized and I feel like the boyscouts did a lot for me to form who I've become; a compassionate human being who can tie pretty good knots and do first aid. Without BSA I wouldn't appreciate the environment nearly as much. It's not fair to write them all off, but I understand that as an organization they're not one we want to be aligned with for their discriminatory policies. Sorry for putting that on the roadmap, it seems my troop was not your common boyscout troop, but being the only troop I belonged to, it's pretty much my impression of BSA.

[elizabeth]

Just to clarify a few points:

The Girls Scouts are a wonderful organization that is not associated with the Boy Scouts. The Girl Scouts do not subscribe to the discriminatory policies that the Boy Scouts do. I fully support and encourage getting involved with the Girl Scouts and might even take a leadership role in establishing a dialog with troops around Philadelphia.

I was expressing a personal objection. Not only do I not agree with the policies of the Boy Scouts, as an atheist I would not be welcome. So even if I wanted to volunteer? I couldn't unless I ignored that part of me and pretended I wasn't (which I won't do).

I never said the person who posted that suggestion shouldn't have, I never "faulted" them, I was merely expressing a position. I want this to be an open discussion with the facts on the table.

I also never said that the LoCo team shouldn't get involved with them, as I don't know the Ubuntu position on this. However, I don't believe discriminatory organizations such as the Boy Scouts are in sync with the Ubuntu mindset, and am somewhat uncomfortable being involved with a group that supports organizations that exclude people like myself and many of my friends. Ubuntu might not support specifics, but one thing it does support is inclusiveness and equality for all humanity.

And I simply disagree with your feeling that by working with the Boy Scouts we're not supporting them. If we have an event with them, link to their site, give them publicity, we are supporting them.

People might disagree with me, that's fine, that's why we're having this discussion

And I've opened up the discussion to the Ubuntu For All folks (which currently shares a list with Ubuntu-Women, unfortunately - a mailing list of it's own has been requested). Mailing list thread starts here: Ubuntu For All: Should LoCos support discriminatory organizations?

[jedijf]

I going to give just my perspective.

I am a member of the Ubuntu Pennsylvania LoCo. If any of my team mates feel excluded or discriminated against by any organization or event; backed up by real and publicy known and documented policies of discrimination or exclusion; I WILL ALWAYS SUPPORT MY TEAM MATES.

Brett, I wish you would have raised your cocerns about Wooden Shoe when alex made that post so that we could have had a discussion about that also. I didn't look into the bookstore that closely to determine if as a LoCo we would have wanted to be associated with them or not. Of course, regardless of the LoCo's decision, every idividual has the right, as an individual to associate with whom ever they like.

As far as I am concerned, if any one my team mates feels excluded, I too am excluded.

[elizabeth]

Brett, I wish you would have raised your cocerns about Wooden Shoe when alex made that post so that we could have had a discussion about that also.

Me too.

I think discussion on these topics is very important and people should be encouraged to speak up if they have a problem. Maybe it's personal and won't influence the group, maybe it's a fact about the organization that others might not know (I would have liked to hear your thoughts on the Wooden Shoe earlier, I never really thought about it), maybe it's a comment that really is quite important and helps the group.

Using the Wooden Shoe example, this can spur other ideas and perhaps more progress - maybe we want to put CDs in LOTS of bookstores so we don't look like we're always lurking with underground culture!

And the whole issue is quite complex. I am not sure we'll come to a resolution anytime soon as far as broad Political/Theological/Discriminatory "rules" about who we, or any LoCo, associates with. Brett - you gave some very good examples that highlight the complexity of this. Unless of course there is already a policy in place and/or they (the CC or Canonical) come down clearly stating "Spreading Ubuntu is more important than anything else" or "We do not associate with discriminatory groups"

I think the best route is the one I was trying to take - I had a problem with something, I said so. I didn't get upset at the person who posted it, I didn't say the group shouldn't be involved with them, I certainly didn't expect everyone to agree with me. Education and civil discussion are the key here.

[lamalex]

Brett, I wish you would have raised your cocerns about Wooden Shoe when alex made that post so that we could have had a discussion about that also.

The wooden shoe is completely different from the boy scout situation, the wooden shoe is the furthest thing from a discriminatory organization. Yes they are radical, but everyone is welcome in the shoe regardless of their race, sexual orientation, political view, anything. The wooden shoe is a place for human beings; just like Ubuntu is Linux for human beings. Now that's not to say some people aren't more welcome than others, but I don't think they'd ever turn someone dying of hunger or thirst out on the street without help if they needed it. Th wooden shoe should absolutely not be the only bookstore we distribute in, they're just one I /know/ will distribute with/for us as they already give out Ubuntu cds when they can. They also have no GNU/Free software literature which is something I think they should have, and we could help them chose what books to order; most bookstores already have a least Free software, free society. I just don't see the connection to this boyscout situation and the wooden shoe..

[iqag1060]

I feel this is best handled by disclaiming on all materials any endorsement by Ubuntu, the LoCo, Canonical, or the individuals involved of the organization, it's goals, or methods. And, of course, individuals should be free to choose whether or not to participate in particular activities. Nearly every organization will have someone who disapproves of some of its goals. There might not currently be anyone in the LoCo who agrees with this point of view, but what would be the answer if there were: http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=21845

I think part of what makes the Ubuntu community great is that all are welcome to participate, regardless of ideology. That we should be able to come together to work towards the spread and improvement of Ubuntu, regardless of our other goals. To me, that is the essence of the "Be Respectful" clause in the Code of Conduct, and something that differentiates it from other free software communities.

[bfledderjohn]

Alex, the Wooden Shoe is not related to the Boy Scouts, as far as being discriminatory and no one is suggesting that. But anarchists are scary to some people. When you talk about social revolution, chaos, and removal of the government, then there are many people who would object or label us as fringe whackos.

I am not saying that the people that shop at the Wooden Shoe are not great people nor am I saying that we should withhold Ubuntu from them because of who they are. I am talking about perception. If people see someone buying the Anarchist's Cookbook and carrying a copy of Ubuntu around, what do you think the perception will be?

As for the Boy Scouts program, if it comes about, it will not be our only program. If there is a Gay and Lesbian Community Organization that wants to do something with Ubuntu I think that they cannot be ignored either. My point was that we, as a group cannot be the ones that measure right and wrong over religious and political policies (outside of people and groups advocating violence against others). Otherwise we will not do any work with programs funded by the Catholic Church (or any church or religion), a political party or body, and quickly our ability to reach the community drops exponentially. And the reason that I am saying that this is a world issue because some cultures are struggling with even deeper divides and yet Ubuntu is spreading. Do we stop Ubuntu and the community because of this?

As far as the Boy Scouts are concerned, they do ban homosexuals and atheists, however they do not push an agenda that would persecute homosexuals or atheists. They just do not allow them to participate. You can't compare them to Nazis, or hate groups, Myriam. Although not being from the United States, you may not know what the Boy Scouts are. They are a spiritual organization that encourages boys to learn self reliance, social responsibility, and respect. While I don't agree with the policy banning homosexuality, many religious groups feel that homosexuality is not acceptable and as such the Boy Scouts follow suit. They seem to follow the US military's doctrine which has been "don't ask, don't tell." See here
Number 5 and number 7 seem to be the factors that Lyz was concerned about. I want people who may not be familiar with the group to see their belief structure. Once again, Lyz you have every right to not support this group, and to feel uncomfortable with this group. I am only putting this out there so that everyone can see the reasoning (on both sides). As far as the religious issue they support Christian, Jewish, and Islamic groups. Being a group which believes in and promotes God, I understand why they would not encourage atheist participation. And I certainly can understand why an atheist would not want to participate in this group or any event that this group participates in.

Yes we should see what Canonical's stance is on this, however, I think that the Community was founded on apolitical and nonreligious framework to completely sidestep potential problems. We do not want, nor is it possible to have a entire community that is homogeneous. We need diversity, and we need to have tolerance and not get ourselves embroiled in political or religious debate.

Religion and politics are personal, and each individual is welcome to do as they like, but this group can't pick sides (and I'm not saying that you did this Lyz, you simply opened a door that needed to be addressed for the future). If that means that the majority of us decide that this group shouldn't get involved with any organization that has ties to anything that makes people uncomfortable or excludes anyone, then so be it, but I think that would be cutting off our nose to spite our face.

[basilf]

People, these are the Boy and Girl scouts they are not the bloody KKK. Lets not get confused with being on some kind jury. There is a reason for the boy and Girl scouts not excepting homosexual and non-Christian believing people into thier group they are a family and Christian oriented group its really no brainer.

They believe they are doing this for the welfare of the children. So let then be and allow them access and support of Ubuntu education is the best way to combat ignorance and also they sell a mean apple and there cookies are to die for.