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Thread: Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

  1. #21
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    Re: Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamalex View Post
    could you point me to the part that says that? This site seems to actually have an agenda about scouting in general, maybe the site owners parents never let them be a scout and now they're pissed? The GSA section is an article about how GSA doesn't care if you're a lesbian but they don't encourage any particular lifestyle .. don't see the discrimination there...
    I'm reading it as a "don't ask don't tell" policy. But that's just me. I don't remember anyone being asked about it in my experiences in the boy scouts either.

    Policies come from the top of these organizations. They are enforced to various degrees at the local level. Both of our experiences attest to that.

    We are here to focus on the local level. Reach out and spread the love. If they're pricks about it, don't schedule a follow up.
    Last edited by ccw; June 18th, 2007 at 09:01 PM.
    Hello, I am a PC and I run Linux.

  2. #22
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    Re: Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by dshufelt View Post
    After reading this post I kind of got the feeling that there was some question on the official Ubuntu stand point... I would like to encourage everyone to read the following: http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy
    It's nice to be reminded, that link is important, thanks for posting it! But I don't think there is an argument about Ubuntu itself tolerating discrimination (it doesn't). In fact if you follow the links in that article you'll end up at the Open Source Definition, which in section 5 states an open source license have "No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups"

    If there isn't an official standpoint from Ubuntu I really liked iqag1060's idea of a disclaimer stating that we don't necessarily promote the politics of the groups we work with. We spread Ubuntu and are able to detach ourselves from political and social entanglements to a point (an Ubuntu banner next to the BSA headquarters in Philadelphia still might upset some people and cause bad press, no matter what the fine print says). People who don't want to work on a project are welcome to express their opinions, but in the end we only volunteer for the events we feel comfortable with.

    I don't think this will be a huge issue in the PA LoCo team as I don't think we're culturally different enough to disagree about some of the more extreme groups out there (While the Nazi example made me laugh and fit the basic framework of the argument, is that even an issue? Would enough people in the group feel comfortable in a personal capacity supporting such an organization to make such an event happen?). But as Bret said, this is an international issue.

    Here is a link to a great (short) interview with Nelson Mandella where he elaborates on the meaning and philosophy behind Ubuntu: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...buntu+mandella
    I don't know how I managed to miss that - thanks for the link, I enjoyed it
    Elizabeth Krumbach // pleia2 // lyz@ubuntu.com
    http://princessleia.com

  3. #23
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    Re: Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by elizabeth View Post
    I don't think this will be a huge issue in the PA LoCo team as I don't think we're culturally different enough to disagree about some of the more extreme groups out there (While the Nazi example made me laugh and fit the basic framework of the argument, is that even an issue? Would enough people in the group feel comfortable in a personal capacity supporting such an organization to make such an event happen?). But as Bret said, this is an international issue.

    I agree that by saying participation is voluntary, you are able to exclude the Nazi/extremist-of-any-sort case by default, as no one will volunteer. (I would hope.) On the other hand, the Nazi example also highlighted the difficulty, as Nazis were linked with Scientologists as examples of intolerable groups. That may be the common perception in Switzerland and much of Europe, but in PA, most people view them (at most) as harmless wackos. (I don't happen to agree, but...) I'm sure there are many LoCo members who would have no more problem with a program at a Scientology-sponsored program than an Episcopalian-sponsored program (such as Open Borders.)

    Also, it's worth noting the difference between the video on the philosophy of ubuntu, and "Our Philosophy" as described on the Ubuntu site. The latter is an application of ubuntu to the specific domain of software.

  4. #24
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    Re: Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by iqag1060 View Post
    as Nazis were linked with Scientologists as examples of intolerable groups. That may be the common perception in Switzerland and much of Europe, but in PA, most people view them (at most) as harmless wackos.
    Wait, so Europe actually takes Scientology seriously? Seriously as in .. doesn't consider it a huge joke? Come on guys, it's obviously a huge joke on Hollywood.

  5. #25
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    Re: Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

    Quote Originally Posted by iqag1060 View Post
    I'm sure there are many LoCo members who would have no more problem with a program at a Scientology-sponsored program than an Episcopalian-sponsored program (such as Open Borders.)
    Fair point, maybe we are different enough for it to matter here in PA. I'm in the "Scientology is a bit of a joke" crowd and would be interested to hear your feelings on the matter (again, discussion is good! I don't know much about them).

    Do you still think the disclaimer idea would work?

    The latter is an application of ubuntu to the specific domain of software.
    Of course, but said software was built on the ideals of the former and it's nice to learn about.
    Elizabeth Krumbach // pleia2 // lyz@ubuntu.com
    http://princessleia.com

  6. #26
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    Re: Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

    I tend to be in the "Individual Scientologists are mostly harmless - if a little loony" camp, while recognizing that it's destroyed some people's lives, and was founded by one of the most fascinatingly creepy individuals in history.
    But my main point was that it's irrelevant to me. I would rather have goofy cultists using free software than sending Tom Cruise's money to Redmond. If there was a Scientology-run hall that let us run an installfest I'd participate. If there was a brainwashing center that needed an LTSP lab to run some new GPL'd software E-meters, I'd probably stay away. But if some people in the LoCo went, and it was clear that the LoCo and it's members as well as the top-level organizations did not endorse auditing or alien takeover or the like, then I would not feel compelled to switch to Gentoo permanently.

    I would probably apply the same personal policy to the Episcopalians. I would install the lab at the Church-sponsored youth center, but not at the Church itself. If the LoCo installed at the Church, I'd be fine with it, with the disclaimer.

    Now, to admit too things which make me feel uncomfortable:
    1. This post is not as "Respectful" as it should be. I'm not sure why I feel so comfortable mocking Scientologists. I apologize if anyone is offended. I have at least one friend who sincerely believes Dianetics helped him. Lines are hard to draw.
    2. I don't know if I can extend the same analogy to Nazis. Actually, I'm pretty sure I can't. That is, if a group of LoCo members hosted an installfest at a white supremacist compound, I would feel the need to distance myself from the LoCo no matter how many disclaimers were on the posters. And I have no good ideas about how that line can be specified. Perhaps, as someone mentioned, the advocating of violence is the line. But even that can get foggy.


    So, assuming the Nazi case to be purely hypothetical, disclaimers seem to be a practical solution to me. Ultimately, there should be (maybe there already is) an Ubuntu-wide policy which enables LoCos to work with non-profits and other organizations without endorsing any sort of political or religious position, and which gives members the freedom of conscience to support free software without feeling compelled to adhere to any other ideology - even ubuntu the social philosophy, except insofar as it applies to work within the Ubuntu community.

    Sorry, as usual that's too many words to say too little.

  7. #27
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    Re: Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

    Well, I would say the line is anything that is considered a "hate group". Any group that preaches violence, racial or religious hatred, intimidation, or degradation would not be an acceptable group.
    - Bret
    Pennsylvania LoCo Team Contact
    http://breadthofreality.blogspot.com

  8. #28
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    Re: Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

    I was in Massachusetts for a long weekend. Then I got bogged down with a client for most of this week. All I can add is this: I see a problem for our group - we need a solution.

    It appears that the problem has been identified. A list of potential Ubuntu recipients (where "recipient" can be an NPO or business) has already been established. Based on our collective interests, we need a way to judiciously accept or eliminate certain recipients and/or projects. I say we go with the time-tested process of voting. We can do this in three stages:
    1. List potential recipients of our services. Multiple projects may be tied to a single recipient. This is already being done on the Road Map section of the Approval Application wiki page.
    2. Before dedicating resources to a specific project, members of the PA Ubuntu LoCo must anonymously vote over the course of a week. The majority determines whether we, as a team, go forward with the project or not.
    3. Once a project is approved, it gets its own project page on the wiki. On that page will be a section where people can sign up as resources. If over the course of a week, no one signs up for the project it will be temporarily canceled.
    You may notice I am suggesting that the group vote on a per-project and not per-recipient basis. This is because people may take issue with a recipient but not a specific project for that recipient. Using the recent project with Girls Inc as an example, if you're a supporter of the Pro-Life Action League (read article), you may not be accepting of Girls Inc (the recipient) as an organization but you do support "getting computers to underprivileged girls" (the project). Newsweek also had an interesting article on the PLA's disapproval of Girls Inc.

    Because we supported a project with Girls Inc, does this mean that some people will think our members are pro-choice, i.e. pro-abortion? Certainly. This is where the disclaimer that iqag1060 mentioned comes in handy. I like the way Lyz put it, "... we don't necessarily promote the politics of the groups we work with. We spread Ubuntu ...".

    I don't know where we would plaster the disclaimer. I guess somewhere on meetlinux.com? Creating a wiki page for a project is easy. The voting can be tricky. From the forum, I'm not sure if we can limit voting via a poll to only PA LoCo members. This three step process as I laid it out may not be practical. Tell me what you think.

  9. #29
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    Re: Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

    Can't we all just get along...

  10. #30
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    Re: Politics, Theology, and Ubuntu LoCo Teams

    hklak, good question. nope. we can never get along. imho

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