View Poll Results: What does "ready for the desktop" mean to you?

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  • Any person can install it on any computer without any problems

    1,609 34.95%
  • Anyone can use it once it's already been installed and configured

    2,414 52.43%
  • Every commercial application works on it

    453 9.84%
  • Nothing--it's a nonsensical term

    704 15.29%
  • It automatically detects most hardware without the need to hunt down drivers

    2,236 48.57%
  • It comes preinstalled on computers so novice users don't have to install it

    889 19.31%
  • It's suitable to the needs of most beginner users but not necessarily to most intermediate ones

    568 12.34%
  • Windows and nothing else... not even Mac OS X

    46 1.00%
  • Works on my desktop

    1,199 26.04%
  • Other (please explain)

    166 3.61%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: Linux Desktop Readiness Thread

  1. #7081
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Beans
    31
    Distro
    Ubuntu 9.10 Karmic Koala

    Re: The Linux Desktop Readiness Thread

    Or perhaps more to the point, why are you letting your children dictate what software is run in your household?
    *If* the son has reason to use, already knows how to use, and has a licensed (expensive!) copy of Adobe Creative Suite, he should definitely be running Windows or OSX. You just can't YET replace that software under linux, especially Indesign.

    My education copy of CS2 cost me about $350 (the non-education version was about $900). I'm going to run an XP machine for years while I make the most out of that purchase. I'm not about to exchange CS2 for a clunky Photoshop7 under CrossoverOffice.

    That said, I think XP will be my last MS product. Vista is out. Explorer, Outlook, Instant messenger, word and powerpoint are out (thank goodness). Cracks and anti-virus software are out.

    OpenOffice is in (and is very good), pybliographer replaces Endnote, Gimp and Pixel do most of what I need for imaging (but I am still so much faster/familiar on photoshop). I'm learning to use Scribus as a future replacement for Indesign and it's pretty good, too. Gedit and terminal are in, and I like them all.

    About the son not wanting to use linux: you can lead a horse to water...

    Dave
    Thinkpad X40/1.2GHz-PM/1Gb/40Gb/Atheros a/b/g
    Pure Ubuntu

    http://cistron.ca/linux.shtml

  2. #7082
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    USA
    Beans
    122
    Distro
    Kubuntu 8.10 Intrepid Ibex

    To Mark Shuttleworth and the developers, with concerns.

    I had a message here which was not intended by me to be here. It is in the community cafe now.
    Last edited by keith11; April 24th, 2007 at 02:16 AM.

  3. #7083
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    in the dark
    Beans
    1,513

    Re: To Mark Shuttleworth and the developers, with concerns.

    Wow, thats a big paragraph in the middle, and the bottom and the top, but thats a very big paragraph in the middle. No one could read that without going blind, or perhaps their heads exploding.
    Besides I dont think this would be the best place to post this.
    Imagination is more important than knowledge

  4. #7084
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    USA
    Beans
    122
    Distro
    Kubuntu 8.10 Intrepid Ibex

    To Mark Shuttleworth and developers, with concerns.

    Today is one of those days when I just need to bring out what I am feeling, which is not good news for Ubuntu. I think Ubuntu or any community version which is free is targeted at people who can't afford windows or are frustrated with the problems in windows and there are many of them. But what's the point when you find out that you just ended up installing yet another OS which is equally frustrating and sometimes even more because at least the hardware work out of the box in windows, but not in linux distros. There's a limit in understanding that hardware vendors don't write drivers for linux. But if I were starting a business and I would want people to use my product, I wouldn;t offer that as a reason to the end users who get frustrated and eventually ditch linux becuase it didn't recognize their hardware. I wouldn't want my clients to go back a few years in terms of their daily needs, rather I would try to offer them the best and the latest.

    I truly don't get this. I wonder if linux, any distro of it, will ever be able to compete with windows on the desktop front. Even worse I have a feeling people who are developing it rreally don't get what the end users want. Although I don't know how to write the code for an OS, I do know about programming and I know there are many many components which should all work in sync. But the point is they should work. I don't understand why the problems in linux stay as problems for months, after all why. i don't want to draw a comparison betwen windows and linux or any other OS. I am just talking about linux. Just take the case of Feisty. With a new version you expect things to get better and the things which matter the most MUST get better.

    In case of Fesity, one of the very basic of applications, the networkmanager is full of problems. I wonder what kind of an impression you are giving out with inefficient coding in programs like those. From the point of customer relationship building, trust building and marketing, that would be a very negative impression. Sometimes I wish I knew how to program these modules and I didn't have to depend on the developers for months to fix an issue. Not to mention some issues get worse too. This is not a debate against the developers, but if I were one of the developers, why would I put out a code without researching enough and putting down all specs about the hardware it supports. If i were to code, I would make sure it works with all the hardware, almost most of it. If anyone has to say that come on it is free, you can't expect that, I would just say that if that's the psychological approach you will never get a professional grade product and things will always be amateurish. I have been using linux since 2001 and I am one of those who would read a lot to fix a simple issue in linux or otherwise. I know many of us here have spent days and nights configuring things in linux, be it any distro. But until how long will we have to just keep on configuring things? After all it is an OS which should work on its own and I don't think any developer or sponsor expects every user of their product to be an expert in linux. No one can be an expert in all fields.

    I wonder if developers even read threads in this forum. I just don't understand it. How can you mess up things which were already working nicely in older versions? I am pursuing two master's degrees simultaneously in elect. engineering and an MBA with a specialization in IS. I know it would be complicated to sort things out, but then please stop pushing this 6 month cycle thing. I don't know who came up with that idea. If you have to compete with giants like MS and MAC, you just don't do such amateurish things. I hope Mark Shuttleworth reads such posts here because he is the one spending money. If you have a 6 month cycle at least don't force people to have the latest older version before upgrading to the newest. What sense does it make? With linux distros, as most of us have experienced, we all spend quite some time configuring hardware and stuff and those configuration are obtained after a lot of reading of forums, posting questions, helping each other etc. And just after 6 months comes a version like Feisty which kills your wireless, for many of us. When you use a OS, you don't expect to give 2 hours each day, as long as you are using that OS, just to sort out problems and keep on configuring things. Free DOES NOT have to mean amateurish. Please remember developers, without having applications that really work, in all conditions with all hardware, these projects will go nowhere.

    If I were one of the developers, I wouldn't be able to sleep without fixing the problem once and all, considering I have two master's degrees to pursue. Isn't that something we all do, although we are not the developers, we all give time to fixing problems in our distros by spending so much time and energy after reading forums, articles, how-to's, etc, with an active life going on with jobs and school? So even if you have the problems fixed with your distro of Ubuntu, after 6 months you again have to keep on playing for days and nights to get simple things to work. Does it sound attractive or appealing in any possible way to anyone who is thinking of switching to any linux distro? How come we still keep on having problems in linux which should just stop existing now. Is it that people are being overly tolerant under the pretext of linux being free? And please remember that all the comments here refer to linux trying to capture the desktop market. Looking at the whole scenario, it seems very disappointing. I think I will just think about learning python and other coding languages to fix things for myself and not depend on others for months. But not everyone knows about programming. Is the real target of linux OSes including Ubuntu just to stir the waters a little bit for windows and do nothing more? The way the linux distros are progressing it seems like that.

    It might be apparent from my post that I am rather disappointed in linux in certain aspects becuase I want it to do so good. I want to be able to tell my colleagues and friends that linux is THE thing to look forward to and be able to prove to them in all significant technical aspects which would truly make their lives easier, compared to other OSes out there. Good things are happening, but not fast enough. If anyone is thinking of replying to my post by saying I can't expect everything polished from a free OS, then please save your time and don't bother typing your reply. If I have to put something in the market for other users to rely on, I wouldn't say it's free, don't complain about it. Free of not, who said the quality should be compromised? We have to get out of that mentality in order for linux to share a good amount of the desktop market, or otherwise, just drop such projects. You don't play to lose, you play to win. I am typing this post from windows because since so many hours I was just struggling to get online in Feisty, just to check my e-mails. I try not to go back to windows, but well, somethings just push you towards that. I think Ubuntu team should do away with this whole 6 month cycle if they can't provide applications which will always work in the newer version. Otherwise too, whenever you think you need to upgrade to a newer version of the OS what sense does it make to have the latest older OS installed?!!

    Imagine that someone has put in great efforts and finally made all the things work in his distro and he doesn't upgrade for let's say 18 months. After 18 months the support for an OS like Fesity will stop so it's like forcing us to upgrade to the version which came out after 12 months and then to upgrade to the one which came out after 18 months or just install the 18 months one from scratch. That would AGAIN begin the whole configuring problems story right from scratch. What justifies the 6 months cycle? I wish Mark Shuttleworth gives out his general contact information or at least reads these forums. Man, you come to linux thinking of efficient code of the OS, better utilization of your hardware capabilities and stuff...all rosy things and then realize that in order to utilize the hardware capabilities to their max, first of all the hardware has to work, which itself is a challenge in linux and has been for quite some time. This wasn't a rant, it was a very objective view with regards to the long term plans linux or ubuntu may be making and the goals they may have set. If this was a corporation, the operations department needs a huge huge boost. I hope the voices of people like us are heard by the developers and the sponsors like Mark Shuttleworth.
    Edit/Delete Message
    Last edited by keith11; April 24th, 2007 at 02:14 AM.

  5. #7085
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    USA
    Beans
    122
    Distro
    Kubuntu 8.10 Intrepid Ibex

    Re: To Mark Shuttleworth and the developers, with concerns.

    Quote Originally Posted by slimdog360 View Post
    Wow, thats a big paragraph in the middle, and the bottom and the top, but thats a very big paragraph in the middle. No one could read that without going blind, or perhaps their heads exploding.
    Besides I dont think this would be the best place to post this.
    I posted it as a thread in the Community Cafe. I don't know how it ended up there. Didn't mean it for the eyes which didn't have to read it.

  6. #7086
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Beans
    323

    Re: To Mark Shuttleworth and developers, with concerns.

    I understand your concerns, and they're very valid, but I don't think the six month release cycle is to blame. If anything, I think the increased demand and time constraints are causing the developers to work harder, and Linux is at a stage which it is still rapidly developing. Once it's at a stage where it will be accessible by the non tech-savvy home user and most issues have been sorted out, then the release cycles can become more gradual.

    Also, there are LTS versions which address most of your concerns.

    I agree that Linux isn't very presentable professionally, but neither is Windows in that sense, it seems Mac OSX does this best, but to be fair so would ubuntu given the perfect circumstances.

    Hardware support has always been one of the downfalls for Linux, and the only way this will change is if it gains momentum; you can't expect the community to write perfect drivers for every piece of hardware out there.

    There's only two things I I would change; one is to make the testing period for potential releases a bit more. This gives more time to address potential concerns. The second thing, of course, is not to enforce strict deadlines. It does more harm to release an unfinished product than to take an extra week and finish it. I always thought that one of the strong points of linux was that it didn't have to meet deadlines because it doesn't have a lot of pressure to do so, look at Debian for example.

  7. #7087
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Edge of Time
    Beans
    Hidden!
    Distro
    Ubuntu 9.04 Jaunty Jackalope

    Re: To Mark Shuttleworth and developers, with concerns.

    Quote Originally Posted by keith11 View Post
    Today is one of those days when I just need to bring out what I am feeling, which is not good news for Ubuntu. I think Ubuntu or any community version which is free is targeted at people who can't afford windows or are frustrated with the problems in windows and there are many of them. But what's the point when you find out that you just ended up installing yet another OS which is equally frustrating and sometimes even more because at least the hardware work out of the box in windows...
    That's as far as I read. Know why? Because we've heard this all before. Check here

    Btw, hardware does not work out of the box with windows (although vista seems to be better at this). Hardware makers make drivers for windows and Dell, etc set it all up for you. Open source developers make drivers for Linux (with some from HW makers) and you have to set a lot of it up yourself. Although with Dapper, Edgy and Feisty everything has worked out of the box for me so kudos Linux.

  8. #7088
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    The Bend, Canada
    Beans
    Hidden!

    Re: To Mark Shuttleworth and developers, with concerns.

    Sorry that you feel that way, I have a five or six year old copy of mandrake you should try, linux has come a long way.
    Search of your post's suggest's you need something that is more newbie friendly so I suggest pclinux or even better linspire.
    Microsoft has an ouragious monopoly and there os has it's issues. Considering the small market share linux shares it is an incredible os, infact better in so many way's. Mandrake made me feel the same way.
    Give linspire a shot, you will be impressed.
    Ever tried installing windows on barebones no os system?

  9. #7089
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Philadelphia, YEEAH!
    Beans
    2,401
    Distro
    Ubuntu 9.04 Jaunty Jackalope

    Re: To Mark Shuttleworth and developers, with concerns.

    You see, the hardware is built for Microsoft, for Windows. It makes it easier for Microsoft's code monkeys but not for the driver makers. In Ubuntu and other distros of Linux, you have to build the software to work with the system. It's really, really, really hard to make sure that every single combination of hardware specs works with your Linux distro, a problem that is avoided in Windows for the above reasons. That can only really change if Linux gains a wide acceptance and use. Linux is at a ridiculously early stage in its development right now, and you have the benefit of seeing the broader scope from a viewpoint of a seasoned vet in five or so years. For now, though, be patient, and use a workaround. Linux has nowhere to go but up!
    Gandhi once said: "We must be the change we wish to see in the world."
    So you want a separate /home partition?|Ubuntu World Map|Linux IS NOT Windows

  10. #7090
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    West Virginia
    Beans
    405
    Distro
    The Feisty Fawn Testing

    Re: To Mark Shuttleworth and developers, with concerns.

    I read through that post (why I bothered I don't know) and you don't really present any new information/complaints. I do like that you inflated your own importance in the first couple of sentences claiming that your opinion is 'not good news for ubuntu'. Well, fortunately if you don't like Ubuntu no one is forcing you to use it.

    Concerning hardware, it's my understanding that Vista is undergoing a taste of Linux hardware support. A lot of devices and peripherals simply don't work with it, go figure. Hardware support issues are strictly related to the availability of drivers. However, Ubuntu (and any distribution that has moral/legal standards) will not ship 'blobs' (proprietary drivers) by default unless it is deemed absolutely necessary to functionality, and even then other distributions STILL might make you do it yourself. Hardware support will continue to be a problem in Linux for as long as the drivers for 'X-device' are closed.

    Concerning the 6-month release cycle. I think you must misunderstand the way that the development of GNU/Linux in general works. The development is SO rapid in places that a year is enough time for a distro to become antiquated, in terms of having reasonably up to date software. New features, improvements, bug-fixes, etc., there is a TON of incentive to upgrade to newer applications, which require newer dependencies, which require a more up to date distro (unless you don't have an issue destabilizing the one you're already using). I'm of the opinion that a 6 month release cycle for an up-to-date distribution is right there where it needs to be. Maybe a little slower would allow for more to be done for each release, but it's not necessary.

    Also, if you want to get in touch with someone in the project (including Mark Shuttleworth) it's as simple as logging into IRC, or joining the mailing list. There are some developers that use this forum, but it's not the standard and you shouldn't expect much of it. There are forum ambassadors that serve the purpose of delivering info from the forums to the developers, however.

    I'm also going to hit you with a nugget of advice, if your install is working... DO NOT UPGRADE. If you are happy with the way things are, why change them? Personally, I run Feisty and it has been a joy to use. In the future I may stick with Ubuntu LTS releases (or another distribution's stable releases) and just virtualize my OS of choice on top of that. Don't go messing with a good thing.
    "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings"- Optimus Prime

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