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Thread: Bug #2 ?

  1. #21
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by earobinson View Post
    I have been told that there have been studies done that prove that in general men have better spacial skills, I think this is one of the things that gets men more interested in technology, lego (since people tend to be intrested in what they are best at and I think the whole building things skill leads to computer science), etc than woman.

    That being said I think that there are a lot more woman interested in tech than there are in the tech industry, and this could be due to the fact that we alienate them, and there is room for improvment.

    I just see it as something that will hapen over time and not something we can really change in a day. I feel as long as we dont discurage woman from linux they will come in time.

    But I could be wrong and its only what I think
    The studies saying guys are left-brained and girls are right-brained have been refuted. It seems more common as adults, but its because those halves get more exercise dependent upon gender due to the types of mental stimulation they are brought up with. Boys are taught to play with erector sets. Girls are taught to play house. Which gender gets the logic/math/science exercise from an early age?

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  2. #22
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    The underrepresentation of women extends far beyond Ubuntu users. I am a computer science grad student (male) and know too well how underrepresented females are in the sciences. Interestingly, and in the theme of this thread, today I received an email about "Computer Research Association's Committee on the Status of Women in Computing Research", which is a "action oriented organization dedicated to increasing the number of women participating in Computer Science and Engineering (CSE) research and education at all levels." As this group has similar goals I decided to post their site here (I am not affiliated with them in any way, so if this inappropriate just delete the links).

    If you are interested, here is the homepage for CRA-W, and here is the specific graduate workshop email link I received.
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  3. #23
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by macogw View Post
    The studies saying guys are left-brained and girls are right-brained have been refuted. It seems more common as adults, but its because those halves get more exercise dependent upon gender due to the types of mental stimulation they are brought up with. Boys are taught to play with erector sets. Girls are taught to play house. Which gender gets the logic/math/science exercise from an early age?
    Quote Originally Posted by http://www.news.utoronto.ca/bin6/thoughts/050509-1384.asp
    nnate differences reliably established

    (from the U of T Bulletin, May 9/05)

    Apparently the existence of innate differences between men and women is as contentious at the University of Toronto as it is at Harvard (Differences in National Cultures Overlooked and Women Still Fair Game, Letters, April 25).

    Ed Andrew makes an interesting point that is often raised to suggest that barriers to women in the physical sciences are purely cultural. Of course, this argument is persuasive only if universities in the countries he cites attract the most mathematically and scientifically able individuals as they do in the United States, Canada and Britain. If, as Professor Andrew himself notes, these gifted individuals instead gravitate to industry or emigrate because of low academic salaries, then the high female percentages in these universities mean little.

    Vassos Hadzilacos appears to believe that there are no innate differences between men and women, at least not in the sphere of intellectual abilities. While this may comfort him and his fellow ideologues, it is simply not true. As Doreen Kimura has observed in her book Sex and Cognition, it has been reliably established for several decades now that the same prenatal hormones that produce the obvious physical differences between the sexes also strongly influence many behaviours and abilities. These differences have been especially well established for such mental attributes as spatial tasks and mathematical reasoning, particularly at the highest level, where men excel as well as object location and verbal memory where women excel. Added to these differences in aptitude are different inborn preferences — men prefer object-oriented occupations, women prefer more person-oriented fields.

    No one would deny the existence of cases of past discrimination and, of course, there is substantial overlap between the sexes where they differ on average. However, it is no surprise that people self-select into occupations based on their own talents and interests and thus the sexes are not present in equal numbers everywhere. Equal opportunity does not result in equal outcomes.

    John Graydon
    Chemical Engineering and Applied Chemistry
    Unless you have something more recent than that this is a topic of on going research with people sitting on both sides of the fence but nothing has been refuted, and there are a lot of academic papers supporting my claim, the above one only took second to find.
    Edward A Robinson -- www.earobinson.org

  4. #24
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    such mental attributes as spatial tasks
    Actually left handers are better at spatical tasks than right handers.
    Learning is not attained by chance, it must be sought for with ardor and attended to with diligence. Abigail Adams ( 1744 - 1818 ), 1780;

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  5. #25
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    I don't see how you can have a scientifically valid study of what's "innate" and what's culturally influenced in gender. Where would you get a control? Influences are everywhere. There is no gender-neutral cultural vacuum where you can raise women or men to pursue whatever they'd "naturally" want to pursue.

  6. #26
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    Sounds like we're looking in the wrong place for this bug, it's a social bug and we should be campaigning more for child rights since it's quite clear the most damage to equal treatment is done in early years.

    The tests pointed out above to do with right/left your right it was refuted, what wasn't is more recent scans of new born babies that show a tendency of about 70% more advanced detail mapping brain section in girls and a 65% tendency towards more advanced spacial mapping in boys. we're always at the point we're you can give a fairly accurate prediction if the person will be a girl with a strong male type brain or a boy with a strong female type brain (they do exist and are not rare and it has nothing to do with sexual behaviour either).

    I feel the same way as a previous post, I don't see the people I meet online as being male, or female. I see them as people; I was brought up with the idea that your a person first and you fill in properties later on as you get to know them.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    Hello All,

    I've enjoyed this discussion. Whether we call it 'bug #2 ' in my book is not important.

    I received my first does of *nix in college back in '92. There were very few women in my computer classes.

    In my opinion (IMO), using a distro of GNU / Linux has been very technical until recent years. Debian and products like Ubuntu have drastically changed that though.

    Do to culture--gender role enforcement--this has, traditionally, narrowed the field of folks willing to take on the learning curve involved in using an non-ubiquitous OS.

    The good news is the learning curve is much lower now. Unfortunately, in many counties culture still reinforces the gender stereotypes.

    Lowering the investment needed to successfully install and use GNU / Linux has made it more appealing to 'all' people, not just women.

    I think most people just want to use a computer to get things done--or play games...whatever. I don't think the average person wants to get bogged down in the details of how to get the computer to do it. This is just like driving a car. Most people don't want to build or fix them--just drive them.

    Women are way under represented in GNU / Linux due to many layers discrimination--whether intentional on not. Many of these factors include gender roles within society: A traditional steering away of females from math and science; A traditional steering away of females from computers--men using machines (stereotype) and tinkering with them (stereotype.) This leads to a very male dominated field. Now add another layer of many years where a high learning curve was involved to gain benefit from GNU / Linux in a male dominated field, I can see why there are so few women users and contributors.

    It is quite a hill to climb for anyone. Even more so if one, as a woman, feels alone, unwanted, unconnected, and/or outright discriminated against in the process.

    So, what would be the benefit, traditionally, for women to engage GNU / Linux? Not much in my book.

    I would hope the products like Ubuntu, coupled with forums like this can help to alter peoples attitudes and help women get more involved in great things in computers and science, math and engineering, and machines and mechanics.

    This forum is about advocacy for women in Ubuntu, but I see it's greater goal as equality--for all people.

    Well, that's my take..

    Julie

  8. #28
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    To be honest - all the girls I gave Ubuntu to were very satisfied.
    That means that girls in general can and prolly would enjoy using Ubuntu. They just don't install it themselves. Why?

    Well, #1 on my list is awareness. None of my girlfriends heard of it before. Don't get me wrong, but it's easier to hear about Linux and get help with it when you're a guy. Guys to guys talk about technology. Guys to girls hardly ever talk about tech, especially about Linux
    My girlfriends wouldn't find out about Ubuntu if it wasn't for broken Windows. They've had to ask me for help with their PC before I told them about Ubuntu - I would never guess that they may become Linux users...

    Unfortunately, I don't really know what to do about this issue...

  9. #29
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    Bug #2 seems to be an on going topic within many sections of the Ubuntu Community. Which i feel is a great achivement and is significant of more than just a start to greater female participation. The Ubuntu Forums seem to have a number of high profile and vocal female members, which is as it should be. Overall Ubuntu is already one of the most inclusive, helpful and friendly communitys i have come across. IMO things are already begining to change with regards to gender equality but progressive (as opposed to revolutionary) change happens slowly. So if we all help others to understand that this is an inclusive community it will remain so and will expand as such to include a greater diversity of people than it already does.

    I feel that we in the Ubuntu community should now be looking to increase participation world wide in all sections and areas of the global community but in particular the underprivilged of the poor world, often black and often women. However i don't think we can do this alone by greater access to the Ubuntu Community, to run Ubuntu you need a computer, to run a computer you need electricity and so on, could this be Bug #3?. I feel while access is an important part of enfranchising people to this global society, societal change across the full spectrum of human interaction is key GNU/Linux, the FSM and these forums are part of that, perhaps a template?.

    Anyway if anybody is still awake out there, thats my tuppence worth
    Last edited by tommytom; December 29th, 2006 at 07:32 PM.

  10. #30
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by tommytom View Post
    Anyway if anybody is still awake out there, thats my tuppence worth
    Still awake
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