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Thread: Bug #2 ?

  1. #11
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    personaly I have never thought of contubutions as mostly from men, I just thought of them as from people.

    maybe Im the only one that thinks that we are wired differently to a certain point, Im not at all against making it easier for people to get involved. I just don't think we should focuses on any specific group.

    If we go down this path bug number 3 could turn out to be "lets make it more easy for Americans to contribute" and I feel at a certain point that just gets silly and bug number 2 should really be lets make it more easy to let people contribute.

    My gf also played with lego as a kid

    Also as a disclaimer feminism has never appealed to me I have always considered my self more of an equaltairain (equal rights for everyone) more than anything else.

    Also I'm not trying to troll and if my opinions are unwanted I'm happy to leave, just giving my opinion that we should focuses our efforts on getting everyone involved more than just one group of people, after all Ubuntu is humanity towards others!
    Last edited by earobinson; December 19th, 2006 at 08:02 PM.
    Edward A Robinson -- www.earobinson.org

  2. #12
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by earobinson View Post
    If we go down this path bug number 3 could turn out to be "lets make it more easy for Americans to contribute" and I feel at a certain point that just gets silly and bug number 2 should really be lets make it more easy to let people contribute.
    I don't see that happening. Women make up roughly 50% of the world population and only about 4% of the Ubuntu forum population. You could argue that some women using Ubuntu may not want to use the forums, but would that account for a different of 46% in representation?

    Americans, on the other hand, are not underrepresented at all. I believe equal treatment doesn't always mean same treatment. If someone beats your arm to a bloody pulp, you need surgery on your arm, not your whole body. If women are excluded from technology and subjected to an unfriendly atmosphere in it, that gender-related problem should be addressed. Americans face no such obstacles any more than Australians or South Africans or Chinese.

  3. #13
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    I used the American example since I did not want to single out any race so I picked something generic.

    But I will tell you from experience many races are under represented in computer science, linux, and the tech industry.

    I can give examples but don't feel its necessary or appropriate unless you ask me to, since it just singles them out.

    Also "on the internet no one knows your a dog" goes a long way here, I don't see posters as man or woman just as a poster since there is no way to tell unless they want you to know.

    also I have nothing wrong with Ubuntu woman as a sub form and think its kinda cool. I just don't think this is bug number 2.

    edit: anyone else having problems editing there threads in non advanced mode?
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  4. #14
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    Lightbulb Re: Bug #2 ?

    Some women don't use what people expect as Login names/titles in these forums either.

    Also, I think they check the forums out (more than you might think) get the answers they want and go on to make their linux machines their own

    They don't do as many replies, because of the sterotypical responses from others about women in tech.

    Thick skinned, nah, just want to be safe and unobtrusive

  5. #15
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    I agree--this is not bug #2. It is a problem, though.

    And if there are races underrepresented in the Linux world (I didn't know there were), I think that underrepresentation should be addressed too.

    As for the anonymity thing, I don't think that negates the issue. First of all, people making sexist remarks and jokes all the time does not create an atmosphere that makes a woman feel welcome. She doesn't have to declare "I'm a woman! Hey, everybody. I'm a woman!" but she knows she's a woman, and she's still affected by those comments.

    I don't go around the forums shouting I'm Asian-American, but if people started making all sorts of ching-chong-chang jokes and saying "Chink" and "Jap" all the time, I wouldn't feel comfortable here, no matter what I disclose to people about my racial background.

    Also, the fact that you don't declare your gender doesn't mean others don't. For example, because women are underrepresented, most people here assume other forum members are men unless they have usernames like KatieG or Sarah. Assuming everyone is male is not the same was everyone being non-gendered. It's the same as saying everyone is male unless people go out of their way to declare themselves female.

    Have you heard of the concept of passing? That's essentially what women here have to do--pass--unless they want undue attention, online advances, and tokenism. I don't think people here are all treated the same at all.

  6. #16
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by aysiu
    And if there are races underrepresented in the Linux world (I didn't know there were), I think that underrepresentation should be addressed too.
    Thats why I tend to be for just making ubuntu more friendly assessable and easy to contribute for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by aysiu
    I don't go around the forums shouting I'm Asian-American, but if people started making all sorts of ching-chong-chang jokes and saying "Chink" and "Jap" all the time, I wouldn't feel comfortable here, no matter what I disclose to people about my racial background.
    I think your right that no discrimination of any kind should be aloud on the forums.

    I also think that the forums is a great place to address the problems of any one that is underrepresented but its not bug number 2.

    All in all I feel like we are on the same page aysiu

    *Canadian here ... parents are both British... man*
    Last edited by earobinson; December 19th, 2006 at 08:42 PM.
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  7. #17
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    Right on.

  8. #18
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    aysiu you have women chauvinist as well. Who mind you have contempt for the opposite sex.

    So how are you going to create an atmosphere that makes any woman feel welcome. when you will eventually have to deal with the above kind of women.
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  9. #19
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    Quote Originally Posted by SD-Plissken View Post
    aysiu you have women chauvinist as well. Who mind you have contempt for the opposite sex.

    So how are you going to create an atmosphere that makes any woman feel welcome. when you will eventually have to deal with the above kind of women.
    I don't know. How do you create any kind of atmosphere?

    As moderators, we have the power to move threads, delete threads, give users infractions... even ban them. We don't really have full control of the atmosphere. Threads like this give us a chance to determine any common goals and share practices for trying to create a welcoming atmosphere, but it's up to the entire community to create that atmosphere.

    Trolls and flamebaiters will always try to stir people up. The most we can do is appeal to well-intentioned users and try to get them to realize it's not about creating an old-boys network--even if that's accidental.

  10. #20
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    Re: Bug #2 ?

    As far as bug #2 is concerned, once again this is not my original idea, but yugo's on another forum. I send him an email, linking to that thread, for him (turns out he's a him ) to read. Before I posted, I actually carefully looked at bug #1, and could write down a bug #2 based on the same skeleton. With a larger society impact, of course, not just PC industry. That made sense, like an uprising spiral.
    More women involved and Ubuntu end-users, more access to information and education, more women be able to make their own choices, more women in technology, in computer sciences, more women in Ubuntu ...

    But do not get me wrong, this is an idea we all have to check, no matter what will come out about a real bug #2 or not.
    I just do not buy the biological or mental representation differences.

    About the forum atmosphere, I think it is also very important for the staff to be watching out. I'll leave aside all the very good reasons, respect and such, we basically all agree. There is one more : I believe in examples. If your let threads go a little wild, or disrespectful (and not only about women), next time another thread will go wilder, and wilder, and soon we'll be back to the uncivilized times. Not talking about whom could feel uncomfortable reading.
    If rules are enforced (and I know they are), the whole basic level can rise, this is a very long term goal.

    We can all make a difference. I think time will change mentalities, but only if we want it and work on it, all together.
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