Bush vs Kerry

[FLeiXiuS]

Whether anyone likes bush or not, I guarentee kerry would still be twiddling his thumbs right now asking what to do about the terrorist attacks and the war in iraq. Hes to democratic! At least have some dignity in your American Pride.

[adbak]

Now that Bush has been elected, I guess I'll have to break it to my parents that I won't ask them to attend my wedding. No, not because they voted for Bush, but because Bush won. You see, according to Bush, I chose to be gay. I chose to be treated like a second class citizen in this <i>democracy</i>. I chose to be chastised by my contemporaries. Equal rights for some. Some people I guess are just more equal.

[mduduzi]

I was not going to get into to this but with much kindness, I'd like to raise two things...
1. I think people deserve their leadership -- Corollary: The leadership reflects the nature of the people. If they tolerate an oppressive regime it's because not enough of them want change enough to sacrifice for it.

2. The highest form of intolerance I've seen in recent times is that from the Gay community. Why so much insistence that there is something wrong with our faith and insist on changing it? Religious freedom is the cornerstone of all stable and progressive societies. If your 'religion' says nothing is wrong with homosexuality surely we have rights to beieve the contrary and should give each other space to pursue each one's faith?

For thousands of years our faith has said that marriage is holy. God is holy. Homosexuality is abominable -not homosexuals, but homosexuality. BIG DIFFERENCE.
If that is the case, then any insistance that homosexuality be given 'Marriage' status is asking us to alter our faith. There's only two ways to do that, either we change our concept of God from holy to .... or we disregard the authority of the holy scriptures. Eitherway, it requires a change of faith.
That is how intolerance is at work.

Why not exercise some democratic privileges + creativity and invent something else? Marriage and homosexuality are mutualy exclusive. The majority of preachers have gone after popularity and have not an iota of scriptural testimony to favour their ambivolance on this matter.

Live and let live. Love and be loved. Respect freedoms of others as much as you want them to respect yours. Do not desecrate marraige and our faith. Get an alternative.

Am I happy that Bush won? I'm an African Judge for yourself.

Now that Bush has been elected, I guess I'll have to break it to my parents that I won't ask them to attend my wedding. No, not because they voted for Bush, but because Bush won. You see, according to Bush, I chose to be gay. I chose to be treated like a second class citizen in this <i>democracy</i>. I chose to be chastised by my contemporaries. Equal rights for some. Some people I guess are just more equal.

[Jspired]

Likewise I wasn't going to respond, but now feel I need to:

1. Leadership may be deserved and it may not be. It depends entirely on the situation.

2. Nothing wrong with religious freedom! My Mother is a minister, I am a person of faith and yet I do understand that acknowledging ALL of God's children is important. This includes people of all walks of life, color, gender, and sexuality. You must remember at one point, many religions condemned inter-racial marriage, women serving in the church, and other such things. The fact that "several" church organizations now condemn what is natural to many people is wrong in my eyes--as a person of faith. People don't choose their sexuality any more than they choose the color of their skin.

To the above poster, "live and let live", "love and be loved?" Hard to do when you are gay and half the population is telling you you're wrong! To the previous poster, adbak, I say tell your parents, enjoy your "special" day and ignore peope who tell you that you deserve anything less!

[adbak]

I never said that people who believe that is wrong. It's just that when they ignore the Separation of Church and State it's wrong. You can believe whatever you want to believe, but realize that there are others of the Christian faith who do in fact believe in same-sex marriage. So to say that people of the same sex shouldn't marry because it's in conflict with your religious ideals is ignoring others' religious ideals. Not to mention, I believe that there's a distinction between a religious marriage and a governmental marriage. Religious marriages require you to see a preacher and have it ordained. Governmental marriages require you fill out a form and sign it.

Homosexuality is not abominable. It's natural. It's been around for ages. Animals of all kinds have been shown to have homosexuals. Humans are no different. It's only recently that their existence has been acknowledged and given a name.

Also, I don't see why people of the same sex who want to marry would have to "exercise some democratic privileges + creativity and invent something else". If all the rights granted to opposite-sex couples were granted to same-sex couples as well, then why call it anything other than marriage? After all, what's in a name? Just because the government should allow people of the same-sex to marry does not in any way mean that your faith should bless or ordain these marriages.

Also, noticed how I continually called it same-sex marriage instead of gay marriage. Not all those who are of the same-sex are gay -- bisexual people exist too.

[neutron]

Very interesting discussion!

I've always learned to show respect against other human beings, but I've to say: it's very difficult to accept the choice of the American people (atleast the majority ). As you all know Holland (where I live) is a strong ally of the USA, but even here market research shows that more than 80% of the dutch vote for Kerry.

To put my opinion; I find Bush a true disaster, not only for his own country but also for the entire world, I think even more than Osama Bin Laden. Bin Laden is still the face of Al Qaeida, but hasn't got power anymore. Most of the time he's to busy with hiding for his many enemies. Instead Bush his arrogance made him think that he could win a war by his own, without e.g. the United Nations. And what do I see when I see the news: a rebel- and civillianwar in Irac which get more worse by the day. I mean. let's face it: Bush is loosing control of the situation over there...

BTW, I find it ironic that espaccially the United Nations, established by the USA, turned against him in the so called war against terror. The term 'War against terrror', introduced by president Bush, also makes me feel sick. Does the war against terror also justify the oppression of Cubans? I definately think not.

Now we can only pray that Bush won't bring us more wars and violence.

FYI, I just love the USA, but at this moment I'm very, very dissappointed...

[im_ka]

Very interesting discussion!

I've always learned to show respect against other human beings, but I've to say: it's very difficult to accept the choice of the American people (atleast the majority ). As you all know Holland (where I live) is a strong ally of the USA, but even here market research shows that more than 80% of the dutch vote for Kerry.

To put my opinion; I find Bush a true disaster, not only for his own country but also for the entire world, I think even more than Osama Bin Laden. Bin Laden is still the face of Al Qaeida, but hasn't got power anymore. Most of the time he's to busy with hiding for his many enemies. Instead Bush his arrogance made him think that he could win a war by his own, without e.g. the United Nations. And what do I see when I see the news: a rebel- and civillianwar in Irac which get more worse by the day. I mean. let's face it: Bush is loosing control of the situation over there...

BTW, I find it ironic that espaccially the United Nations, established by the USA, turned against him in the so called war against terror. The term 'War against terrror', introduced by president Bush, also makes me feel sick. Does the war against terror also justify the oppression of Cubans? I definately think not.

Now we can only pray that Bush won't bring us more wars and violence.

FYI, I just love the USA, but at this moment I'm very, very dissappointed...

totally agree.

many americans don´t understand why people all around the world care about the us elections, and why all this anitamericanism (or more appropiate: antibushism).
now let me ask all the us people who the hungarian prime minister is and since when? honestly, 99,9% of you could not tell this without an internet search (i´ve been on a high school exchange in fla for a year, most people didn´t even know where to look on the map for hungary, some didn´t even know what hungary is).
why not? because we´re minding our own business.

the us prez on the contrary gets elected by the american people (bush mostly by those in the southern states "yay" ), but is "doing his work" all over the world. unilateralism sucks! i truly believe that the united nations is the proper organization for sorting out "world business". it might not be as quick and "efficient" as the rumsfled-rice "dreamteam" (let´s face it: bush is too dumb to make heavy decisions on his own), but it´s multilateral and somewhat more democratic.

i´m sure that most iraqis are glad that saddam is gone, but they did not elect bush but bush is killing people there.

before anyone calls me antiamerican:
i´ve been living in the us for a year. i really admire your development over the past few hundred years. becoming one of the wealthiest countries in the world in such a short time after being a colony is a great accomplishment. you can be proud of your constitution, really!
but you can´t by a bootle of budweiser (looking at its taste/alc contect most europeans wouldn´t even call it beer ) under 21 but you can buy a gun when you´re 18... that´s a bad joke.

and please don´t think that the "american values" are the "right values" (whatever that means) for other nations as well.

[mduduzi]

If only you knew how side-lined my faith is. I know about oppression and discrimination -personally not from textbooks and TV, and for years at that.
Think of it this way, if this is a question of politics alone, I have no comment. But marriage is also cultural and religious. Cultures change and so do religions. That's the point I'm making. Obviously values are changing fast especially in the US. But do not make a pretence of Biblical faith and justify that which is unequivocally condemned. Some people's faith blesses such marriages but others' do not. The problem comes when there is disregard for the faith of others.

A simple example, It is wrong to call any person a 'dog'. No matter how popular sensitivities may shift it will always be wrong. Just because I reason myself into accepting it, it remains wrong until I shift my reference frame of right and wrong. My reference frame of right and wrong with regards to matters of faith is the Bible and that only. Can you accept and respect that? If so why take that which is sacred to me -and equate it to that which is offensive (Leviticus 18:22-23; Romans 1:27)? If gay marriages were first to take to the definition we would have no objection. But it's the other way round. This arguments in favour of gay marriages are intellectually dishonest. On the surface it seems plausible and consistent with other good things but it has disguised a deep hatred and intolerance for the faith that condemns it's practice. Once again, mark the difference between condemning the deed and the doer. (If my brother lies, I'll tell him it's wrong -but won't humiliate and side-line him. After the straight talk, we get along like brothers.)
My take is that if God can behold all the mess we ALL get ourselves into and tolerate it all. What grounds does a mere human have not to tolerate and accept the choices of other individuals?

Likewise I wasn't going to respond, but now feel I need to:

1. Leadership may be deserved and it may not be. It depends entirely on the situation.

2. Nothing wrong with religious freedom! My Mother is a minister, I am a person of faith and yet I do understand that acknowledging ALL of God's children is important. This includes people of all walks of life, color, gender, and sexuality. You must remember at one point, many religions condemned inter-racial marriage, women serving in the church, and other such things. The fact that "several" church organizations now condemn what is natural to many people is wrong in my eyes--as a person of faith. People don't choose their sexuality any more than they choose the color of their skin.

To the above poster, "live and let live", "love and be loved?" Hard to do when you are gay and half the population is telling you you're wrong! To the previous poster, adbak, I say tell your parents, enjoy your "special" day and ignore peope who tell you that you deserve anything less!

[mduduzi]

I propose that the 'free world' should lobby their 'democratic' governments to institute for the a... Garriage institution.
Those who object to it can alway marry and those who love it will garry. That way we separate circular and legal issues from matters that pertain to faith.

Another thought, Is it really better to have a president who objects to homosexuality but flattens two nations? Both these things are done in the name of the same god (yes, small caps G). What a country, what a world.

Peace!

[jwenting]

So Ubuntu is about freedom to choose.

Voting for one candidate or another is...... the freedom to choose.

Sounds compatible to me.

There's some people (mainly on the left of the political spectrum) who don't want others to have the freedom to choose (or rather want that freedom restricted to only their candidates) who they want in charge.

The same shows in the actions of the Kerry campaign on many occasions.
- They locked opponents in concentration camps during their convention in Boston (they did release them at the end of the day, as they didn't yet have the power to keep the camps operating indefinitely).
- They tried to prevent opponents from voting by slashing tyres of cars from GOP campaign officials
- There's been rumoured cases of voter registration forms from GOP members disappearing and these people never getting their registration cards.

The last could well be due to simply overwhelmed registration offices but it's somewhat disturbing that it happened more often to GOP registrations than "democratic" registrations.

Neither candidate is perfect for either the USA or the world but I'm convinced that the world (and the USA) would be a lot worse of with Kerry at the helm of the USA than with Bush.