Automatix -- ethical question

[silvagroup]

We are getting off topic and the topic has been covered to it's furthest possible extent.

It's is their choice, and my choice, if He doesn't like it He'll let us know.

and MonsterDog is right the data is there it's pretty much a choice.
And as for why we are on this pathetic post I can only quote Paul 1Co 9:22 "To the weak I became as the weak, so that I might gain the weak. I am made all things to all men, so that I might by all means save some." So if Paul were still around today he may more than likely be posting his post. That's also one of the freedoms we have in God, that of our choice and opinion, and the nice thing about that is that I also don't have to be involved in others choices or opinions but we are called to "seek wise counsel" Psalm 1 and Proverbs 1. I consider this a place to get some of that, no different than wasting my time talking to the people at church, the pastor, elders, etc. Just a different format. God bless you all.

[zetetic]

Some clarification (This clafication goes in the form of a reply to an hypothetical person, not a real person):

It's perfectly legal to do those things here, where I live, as long as I don't economically explore other people's work. I was just USING those works (in order to obtain enterteinment or knowledge); I wasn't earning money with other people's works!

For instance, I wasn't selling pirate CDs, I was not making public or payed exibition of movies or songs. I was not getting payed (for instance in the form of advertisments) for distributing the corporeal or corporified substract of other people's intelectual properties, and so on... That's why all I was doing is perfectly legal.

Perfectly legal and ethical, in my opinion, because when someone came with a new intellectual work, that work is only possible because the new creator relied in other people's work, in intellectual works and ideas that were created before, by other people. And as you know, those previous work almost never gets payed, cause it belongs to the all community. Are you paying for using programmers languages? When you play piano are you paying for using the music scale? If someone had to pay for all the knowledge it takes to make a movie or a song, please tell me: who could make new songs or new movies??

And you most not forget that the object of intellectual propriety are ideias, something that is immaterial. That's why the only right an author has is the right to be the only one to EARN MONEY with his work, not the right to restrict other people's ability to use or take contact with his work!

Why? For some good reaons. But first of all because it's impossible to prevent people to use ideias, intellectual properties!

If you own a chair, off course it's fairly easy for you to prevent me for sitting in your chair. And you can do that without transforming this world in a totalitarian madness.

But if you, for example, made a song or a piece of software (software are just ideias in the form of instructions) how can you prevent all other people to enjoy, get knoledge or take contact with your work??

I've listened to your song on the radio, or on a concert you have given, or on my friend's house. How can you prevent me for singing that song when I decide to take a bath or how can you prevent me for playng that song on my guitar and teach my friend to play it?

If I went to my friends house and have contact with your software, how can you prevent me for getting knowledge from or to enjoy your software (imagine that it's a computer game, for instance)??

If you have made a poetic book that I've read in a library or in my friend's house, how can you prevent me for using your poetic words in a romantic meeting with my girlfriend??

The answear is: YOU CAN'T!! Or you could only prevent those things if we lived in a completely and unbelievable totalitarian regimen (far worst that that achieved by the Talibans). For instance no privacy could exist! I could not take a bath alone, cause I certainly would sing your song. I could not be here alone, on my computer chair, cause I could be using "illegal" software.

That's why all those fanatic and desperated attempts to prevent other people's to access or use copyrighted intellectual property are almost allways condemned to a ridicolus failure...

PS: just one more thing: If you want to sell 100 chairs, you must build 100 chairs. If you want to sell the corporeal materiallization of 100 computer programs or 100 songs, you only need to make a computer program or a song... You see... material and immaterial objects are to completely different animals, for bad and for good...

[refdoc]

Bizarre thread, but for what it is worth let me assure you, I do not give a rat's **** for what Americans hold for illegal. Just as I do not give a monkey's for what CHinese or Iranian governments hold for illegal.

Entirely your problem if you have a stupid country with silly laws. Do not make others suffer for this and certainly do not accuse them for enjoying their freedom. You may ask for prayer from the rest of us to get your country improved though.

WRT patent encumbered codec's nonsense - Software patents are yet another American problem which do not exist here. May it last.

[jhmac77]

I find it very surprising that Ubuntu CE (a "Christian" distro) has included the Automatix script as part of their package. As I'm sure you are aware, the script downloads and installs codecs and drivers that (for US citizens at least) are not in the public domain -- your screenshots even show the line that merely requires a simple tick in order to install "NON FREE Audio and DVD codecs".

To my knowledge, all the other Ubuntu and Debian distros have very correctly, and probably on the sound advice of copyright lawyers, supplied only software that has been rigorously vetted as legal to own and operate worldwide.

Given the ethical "gray area" of the Automatix script, would you consider removing it from the disto?

Ever heard of postmodernism? Unfortunately we have a lot of that going around. We personally need to follow the Bible on this issue.
Jim

[SunnyRabbiera]

There is no commandment saying "thou shalt not use automatix"
Plus I dont think of using the win codecs and the like "stealing", more like "sort of borrowing"

[lazyart]

Well, I have used windows for more than 15 years. During that long period I've used thousands of proprietary software and proprietary codecs.
And know what? I've never payed a single program or software! I've never payed for windows, or any ohther software.

And of course I see movies and I played games (I don'y play games anymore cause I don't have the time nor the patient), but I've never bought a movies or game.
I always had friends who gave me what I needed. And I know how to use peeer-to-peer... And ofcourse, since the very begining, I learned how to crack software.

All these things are perfectly legal where I live, since I never earned money with other people's software, movies, or games. I' ve just used them!

I will not explain the concept of intellectual property and Why the mencioned activites are perfectly legal for two reasons:
a) first of all, english is not my mother language, so it would be a pain for me to explain so complex definitions, and law issues;
b) second, because the explanation could only be understood by people with a degree in law.

Currently I'm engaged in more "illegal" similar activities: I'm singing songs I've never payied for; I'm reading books my friends borrowed me and (sin of the sins) at this very moment I'm looking through my window into the beautiful gardem on my neighbour and taking so much pleasure and knowledge from that sight... and I will not pay him a centim for that...
Oh, and now I'm gonna build a garden identical to his garden.... oh, I'm really a bad guy...

So I just leave you with a simple yet very important phrase:

Intellectual property only gives the author one right: the right to exclusively earn money with the work, the right to be the only who makes profits with the work... Anybody can use, enjoy, or get any sort of knowledge or information with/from his work, but only he, the author, can make money with it.

That's what distinguishes immaterial or incorporeal objects (the objects of intellectual property) from the material objects. The rigth to restrict or obstruct the use or access to an object (v.g., a chair, a television, a house, etc), belongs strictly to the world of material objects.

If in the United States things are different, there should be something very wrong with the politics of the country.

That's an interesting post, but the word "ethical" doesn't show up once. Only the question of legality was addressed, which is not the point.

[hoggbottom59]

Personally I've picked Ubuntu because it is easy to install things I need to install.

If this wasn't the case then I'd be using a different distro.

Autom2 has been helpful in installing things that are difficult to install in Synaptic. The two important things I've installed definitely aren't under any kind of grey area - lightscribe support and VMware Service.

People should be allowed to install what they want. Unlike Windows programs doing similar things at least the Autom2 warns people about the consequences of what they are doing.

Linux allows users to pick what they install and modern package managers alert users to what it being installed and about what needs to be installed. Compare this to all those rubbishy free trials installed by Windows software without warning.

Also a note about the legal grey area - it is very simple to install software on Windows that gets round cd and DVD encryption. On Linux there doesn't seem to be anything that works out the box you need to search for the information.

59.

[mikkebe]

Ubuntu CE is a nice distro and I am happy I found it. I am surprised at this question, and I wonder if it's author walks or rides a bike everywhere because a car could exceed the legal speed limit. We as Christians should be in control of what we do. While we must be in this world we do not have to be of this world. I am very new with Ubuntu CE but would guess that, if the author is so tempted by Automatix that it is a problem, it could be easily removed from his or her's system and life goes on.

[Kilz]

There is no commandment saying "thou shalt not use automatix"
Plus I dont think of using the win codecs and the like "stealing", more like "sort of borrowing"

There is also no commandment that says "Thou shalt not view internet porn" But I have a feeling it would be against sixth commandment (Thou shalt not commit adultery) principles that we should live a chaste and decent life in thought word and deed.

When you violate the laws of the land (copyright) you violate Forth commandment principles. In that god has placed the government above us and we should obey the just laws that they in act to protect the rights of content owners.
(Romans 13)
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

We could also look at the 7th commandment (Thou shalt not steal) In that we should not take our neighbors money or goods without paying for them. Simply because the internet has found a new way to to make goods does not negate this.

Jeremiah 22:13 Woe unto him that buildeth his house by unrighteousness, and his chambers by wrong; that useth his neighbour's service without wages, and giveth him not for his work;

Even if there is no civil law that makes it illeagel, and if you somehow rationalize away the 7th commandment. There is still the moral law written in or hearts that says its wrong. (Romans 2:11-15)

Buyt not only is there a ethical problem with Automatix, but a technical one. as pointed out by the Ubuntu Technical Board.

[frodon]

There's no need to beat the dead horse over and over again and revive one year old thread, time to move on don't you think ?

All about automatix has been said and you will find an official statement here :
http://mjg59.livejournal.com/77440.html

Thread closed