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Thread: What's the zen behind the left side of the window titlebar?

  1. #11
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    Re: What's the zen behind the left side of the window titlebar?

    Quote Originally Posted by pfeiffep View Post
    Somewhat accurate analogy except for those of us who use both Windows and Ubuntu. I like being able to customize my user interface for consistency ie having the control icons on the right.
    When I used to run both Linux and OS X, it was, in fact, pleasant if both interfaces kept things more or less in the same place.

    Re: roads -- Roads are a public service. The choice of right or left must be uniform and enforced, otherwise we'd kill ourselves. Software is a product, not a public service. No one compels anyone to buy and use any of it.

    To be intentionally flippant, I don't order a margherita pizza and complain that someone is enforcing a no-anchovy rule.

  2. #12
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    Re: What's the zen behind the left side of the window titlebar?

    3rdalbum,

    Thank you for the most pertinent and interesting answer so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdalbum View Post
    Because in maximised windows, the buttons would look pretty stupid on the right of the indicators. You'd also be left with blank space there when the window wasn't maximised, or the indicators would move depending on the state of the window - either way would be terrible.
    Not trying to be difficult, I just don't follow. If you take a look a the two images below:

    Unmaxed: The window's min/max/close buttons on upper-right corner. No blank space on panel, indicators are all where you'd expect them.

    Maxed: The window's min/max/close buttons don't even show.



    In fact, I find the way Unity handles the maxed window very intelligent, merging the windows title-bar with the Unity panel. Sure, when maxed, there are min/max/close buttons on the right, but they're easy enough to ignore -- simply double-click on the panel, or drag down the maximized window to un-max it. But again, I don't see what you mean. This is in Raring.
    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdalbum View Post
    Why is the Launcher on the left instead of on the right?
    I have no problem with the placement of the Launcher, and your explanation makes perfect sense to me -- for a right-handed person, as you noted. My argument is that in a Linux system, it should be configurable, and I don't expect anyone to figure out for anyone else how to do it. Let those who can code provide the hack.
    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdalbum View Post
    The Launcher doesn't go on the top or bottom because that would restrict precious vertical space on a widescreen monitor.
    Obviously, true. My monitor is rotated vertically, and I'm forever grateful for xrandr, which allows me to flip to landscape to watch videos, and back to portrait again when I'm working. There, I can code that much, so I don't complain about workspace orientation. God Bless Linux.
    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdalbum View Post
    Frankly, if you've been changing the order of window buttons to the right side every six months since 2010, you've been putting yourself through a lot of work to avoid adapting.
    Well, no, I haven't, but I read these forums and others often enough to have heard the same complaint from many users, over and over, with each new release. I made the change once, in Lucid -- I love LTS releases -- and I've blissfully ignored Maverick, Natty, Oneiric, Precise, and Quantal, until well past Lucid's EOL.

    Yes, it was always that way with Unity, as you say, but it was also the case that it was always configurable by the end-user, who is not interested in spending a lifetime studying and tweaking an operating system, but rather using an operating system, with a simple adjustment in, say, dconf-editor.

    My question was, why was it so important that Canonical would, again, put in extra effort to nullify that adjustment (and in gconf/Unity-Tweak and all other tools that provided it). I'm quite sure a lot of users would have been happier if they had invested that extra effort in more regression-testing to prevent legitimate functions from breaking after they've worked flawlessly -- e.g. built-in webcam on laptops and Atheros wi-fi no longer recognized in Trusty, lightdm ignoring directives in its configuration files, and other such stuff that was, again, working fine in Raring.

    At any rate, thank you, this has been informative.
    http://folding.extremeoverclocking.c...avital&t=45104
    "I fear the day technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots."
    ― Albert Einstein

  3. #13
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    Re: What's the zen behind the left side of the window titlebar?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    To be intentionally flippant, I don't order a margherita pizza and complain that someone is enforcing a no-anchovy rule.
    Of course not, that wouldn't make sense. But if you did get the anchovies anyway, and you liked them, and years later, after you've been taking for granted that you'll always have them, or at least maybe, have to pay just a little extra for them, all of a sudden there's a Great Wall of China between you and the anchovies, and you're told it's up to you to drill through it to get them, and anyway, "no one is forcing you to have your pizza here, and no one is preventing you from drilling through that wall," What would your reaction be? Because to use your fairly accurate analogy, that's what's happened here. Not with comfort-food, but with software that people use, to be productive.

    And to be clear, I'm past "reacting," I was asking a question in order to understand.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by r_avital; April 25th, 2014 at 04:45 PM. Reason: Typo
    http://folding.extremeoverclocking.c...avital&t=45104
    "I fear the day technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots."
    ― Albert Einstein

  4. #14
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    Re: What's the zen behind the left side of the window titlebar?

    +1 to 3rdalbum's explanation.

    It's a design decision. Making everything ultimately configurable, or making some desktop config items fixed, is another design decision. Mac has the buttons on the left. Fedora (Gnome desktop, default config) has a single X button on the right, no max or min button. Zorin has them on the right, like Windows. Manjaro (xcfe, default config) has all three buttons on the right, with a window-manager icon ("roll window up", etc) on the left. (Never noticed that one before.)

    I guess my point might be that every distro makes choices. And it's reasonable not to have every single choice configurable. From a coding standpoint, it's usually simpler to have a fixed interface. Fewer lines of code, fewer lines to debug, fewer chances of errors. Not an excuse for locking down user choice, but an explanation for why programmers in the real world sometimes balance configurability against complexity. Another explanation is interface complexity and user confusion, I guess.

    Yadda, yadda -- sorry, this is more or less what others have written.

  5. #15
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    Re: What's the zen behind the left side of the window titlebar?

    I'd recommend Mint Linux, Cinnamon or MATE.

    While there is the argument that you can switch DEs within Ubuntu, anything but the default always seems to be a subpar experience... Unless you're willing to put in some serious time troubleshooting and reconfiguring - the last time I tried to do that turned out to be about as productive as this thread is going, and it's linked above.

  6. #16
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    Re: What's the zen behind the left side of the window titlebar?

    Quote Originally Posted by PondPuppy View Post
    Yadda, yadda -- sorry, this is more or less what others have written.
    Not at all, these are all valid points. Reasonable people will disagree, but valid points.

    Thanks.
    http://folding.extremeoverclocking.c...avital&t=45104
    "I fear the day technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots."
    ― Albert Einstein

  7. #17

    Re: What's the zen behind the left side of the window titlebar?

    Thread moved to Recurring Discussions.
    404

    Come shoot the breeze with us on the Ubuntu Forums IRC channel - #ubuntuforums

  8. #18
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    Re: What's the zen behind the left side of the window titlebar?

    Quote Originally Posted by blitzd View Post
    I'd recommend Mint Linux, Cinnamon or MATE.
    MATE is good, but it has its own bug issues, and therefore (in addition to other reasons), like you said, a bit subpar. Truth is, the Unity Launcher is, or can be, very useful, and I'm still hesitating as to whether I want to stay with it or go MATE.
    http://folding.extremeoverclocking.c...avital&t=45104
    "I fear the day technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots."
    ― Albert Einstein

  9. #19
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    Re: What's the zen behind the left side of the window titlebar?

    Quote Originally Posted by r_avital View Post
    But if you did get the anchovies anyway...
    Wouldn't be a margherita pizza.

    ... and you liked them, and years later, after you've been taking for granted that you'll always have them, or at least maybe, have to pay just a little extra for them, all of a sudden there's a Great Wall of China between you and the anchovies, and you're told it's up to you to drill through it to get them, and anyway, "no one is forcing you to have your pizza here, and no one is preventing you from drilling through that wall," What would your reaction be? Because to use your fairly accurate analogy, that's what's happened here. Not with comfort-food, but with software that people use, to be productive.
    I'd go somewhere else for my pizza.

    People who make pizzas can make any kind of pizza they want. They can change any recipe at any time. Customers who don't like the changes can go elsewhere. Ditto purveyors of software. If you are *selling* something, it is rational to pay attention to your customers, but there's no real obligation to do that. Canonical also has no real obligation and isn't even selling software. How to accurately guage the whims and wishes of open source users has been, in any case, a near impossibility.

    While it's fair and fine to like whatever we like, and no rules exist for this sort of thing, I have to admit I find it difficult to understand why issues like this have caused so much angst since Gnome 2 bit the dust 3 years ago. All the DE's are almost all the same: icons we click on, menus we scan.

  10. #20
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    Re: What's the zen behind the left side of the window titlebar?

    Quote Originally Posted by buzzingrobot View Post
    I'd go somewhere else for my pizza.
    ...wwwwellll... call me deranged then, but I'll venture that most people would be disappointed, and they'd say so. Sure, it's easy to go somewhere else for pizza. Is it just as easy to go to another distro, or even another DE matching the same distro, and have to get used to new bugs, and find new fixes and hacks to get around them, which will impact your productivity? I don't sprinkle parmesan on my Ubuntu. That analogy is a bit limited.

    Would you just as casually replace your car, if after your scheduled maintenance, you found out that the turn-signal and wipers controls were switched around and you had no way to switch them back? [Thank you 3rdalbum, for that much better analogy.]

    Again, nobody asked Canonical to change it. It was their initiative. Instead of testing for the regressions/bugs I've listed a couple of posts ago, they invested time in removing something that was there. And as I said, I was long past reacting and moaning about it, and I simply asked a legitimate question. There's really nothing more to that.

    I'm pretty sure this horse is dead. At least until someone comes up with a hack to fix it (or break it, depending on one's religious convictions/political affiliation).
    Last edited by r_avital; April 26th, 2014 at 04:45 AM. Reason: typo
    http://folding.extremeoverclocking.c...avital&t=45104
    "I fear the day technology will surpass our human interaction. The world will have a generation of idiots."
    ― Albert Einstein

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